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my65pan
07-24-2006, 06:46 PM
Hi, I just found this forum. I have launched small rocket kits at various points in my life but I just got back into it with my son. We have been building Estes kits, but we lost our last one on Sunday. When we got home I cobbled together some cardboard tube, etc. and home brewed a rocket. I'm a machinist and I have a lathe in the garage, so I turned and bored a nosecone from a chunk of nylon, and we were back in business. The rocket flew fine and got me to thinking, so I have begun building a rocket from aluminum. I took 7.5 inches of 7/8" diameter aluminum tubing and bored one end to accept the cone and the other for a motor mount. I turned and bored a nosecone from aluminum and some bushings for the motor mount from delryn (plastic). I used a small strip of spring steel for a motor clip. The fins will be aluminum also. I apologize if my terms for things aren't correct.

I realize cardboard is lighter and cheaper, but I thought it would be a fun project and I wondered if anyone else uses aluminum?

I would post pics, but I don't have an image host at this time.
Mark.

CPMcGraw
07-24-2006, 08:07 PM
Hi, I just found this forum...got me to thinking, so I have begun building a rocket from aluminum. I took 7.5 inches of 7/8" diameter aluminum tubing and bored one end to accept the cone and the other for a motor mount...

I realize cardboard is lighter and cheaper, but I thought it would be a fun project and I wondered if anyone else uses aluminum?

Mark,

It's great to experiment with rocketry, but you'll find nearly everone on this list follows the NAR Safety Code religiously.

You might want to check the NAR code, part 1, even if you're not a member of that organization. Note:

MATERIALS: My model rocket will be made of lightweight materials such as paper, wood, rubber, and plastic, suitable for the power used and the performance of my model rocket. I will not use any metal for the nose cone, body, or fins of a rocket.

Basically, DON'T DO IT!!!

These code rules came into existance due to the efforts of people wanting to promote rocketry as a safe hobby, similar to model aircraft. Too many young folks were injured before these rules were adopted, and rocketry was nearly eliminated by law from even happening due to those incidents. We try to promote a safe hobby here, and we really want you to enjoy it. Stick with lightweight paper tubes and balsa components which you can purchase already shaped and cut to size from SEMROC Astronautics, or from Balsa Machining Service. We support these folks because they support this hobby in the spirit of those rules.

Look through the forum in the "Scrounged Up" thread, and through the BARCLONE pages on Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe, to find some ideas on what can be done with balsa and paper. I think you and your young ones can find plenty of new concepts to build and enjoy there.

SAFETY FIRST!!!

my65pan
07-24-2006, 08:17 PM
I had no idea.

CPMcGraw
07-24-2006, 08:23 PM
I had no idea.

Try building some of SEMROC's great kits first and see why we're all so supportive of our Carl. He's brought back a number of the classic Centuri designs from the late 1960's and early 1970's, and given them some modernizing to make them even better. You'll find them far more satisfying than what you see hanging in the stores these days. These are traditional kits, with real balsa nose cones and other goodies.

Click here:www.semroc.com (http://www.semroc.com)

my65pan
07-24-2006, 08:36 PM
I can machine plastic, fiberglass,wood, etc. just as well as metal, so I'll just re-direct my homebrew efforts. I'm bored with using someone elses pre-made components just to assemble a simple rocket.

Mark.

barone
07-24-2006, 10:13 PM
I can machine plastic, fiberglass,wood, etc. just as well as metal, so I'll just re-direct my homebrew efforts. I'm bored with using someone elses pre-made components just to assemble a simple rocket.

Mark.


Mark,

Good luck with your efforts. A lot of the designs on the Scrounged up thread is a result of others, like you, bored with contemporary "simple rockets". None are kits however the parts reguired for them can be purchased or manufactured at home, if you have the tools (I wish I did :( ). But don't give up on some of the kits available on-line. If you surf enough, I'm sure you'll find some kits that will not bore you. Try the Mars Lander from Semroc. Or "clone" an old classic like the Estes Trident. Personally, I'm looking forward to the release of the Saturn 1B kit from Semroc. Again, you'll find many kits or plans that are more than a simple rocket and that will challenge your skill not only at modeling but also at patience. Again, good luck and keep us posted on your progress with your work. As you surf this site, you'll find we're big on pictures. We like to look at other people's work as much as we like to fly our own. :)

Don
NAR 53455

stefanj
07-24-2006, 11:54 PM
Note that there is a role for metal parts in larger rockets:

Motor retaining rings

Mounts and fittings for payloads.

Ejection charge housings.

So, don't discount your metalworking skills!

* * *

If you're looking for inspiration, dig this thread detailing a guy's efforts to clone a spaceship pictured on an old design manual:

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26355&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

my65pan
07-25-2006, 06:39 AM
Thanks for the replys, but it sounds like NAR and model rocketry aren't for me. I want to experiment with rockets/propellants and build from scratch, not just assemble and fly them. I've found some like minded folks on some experimental rocketry websites. I guess I want to build rockets, not model rockets.

Thanks,
Mark.

A Fish Named Wallyum
07-25-2006, 06:33 PM
Thanks for the replys, but it sounds like NAR and model rocketry aren't for me. I want to experiment with rockets/propellants and build from scratch, not just assemble and fly them. I've found some like minded folks on some experimental rocketry websites. I guess I want to build rockets, not model rockets.

Thanks,
Mark.

Make sure those insurance premiums are paid up. ;)

my65pan
07-29-2006, 12:57 PM
I realized that my last post probably didn't come across well. I just thought there would be more experimentation in model rocketry. Here is a shot of the rocket I cobbled together from cardboard, and the finished aluminum rocket. Don't worry, the aluminum one won't be launched, my son likes it so much for a toy he wouldn't let me launch it if I wanted to :-). I started on another carboard and plastic rocket also. I have the nosecone done and a chunk of cardboard for the body.

Also, if anyone needs anything machined for your projects I would be happy to help if I can.
Mark.


http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l260/my65pan/000_0157.jpg

JSP
07-29-2006, 01:44 PM
That's pretty cool. :) What are the fins made out of on the cardboard rocket? It kind of looks like some kind of masonite (?)

barone
07-29-2006, 01:59 PM
I realized that my last post probably didn't come across well. I just thought there would be more experimentation in model rocketry. Here is a shot of the rocket I cobbled together from cardboard, and the finished aluminum rocket. Don't worry, the aluminum one won't be launched, my son likes it so much for a toy he wouldn't let me launch it if I wanted to :-). I started on another carboard and plastic rocket also. I have the nosecone done and a chunk of cardboard for the body.

Also, if anyone needs anything machined for your projects I would be happy to help if I can.
Mark.


http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l260/my65pan/000_0157.jpg

Did you turn that nose cone from plastic? It looks really good! :)

Don
NAR 53455

Green Dragon
07-29-2006, 02:45 PM
It appears that you are missing your true calling from the pics.

The aluminum bird and the nosecone look great, nice machine work .

There is really NO point in aluminum anyways, all it does is add weight - maybe when you get up into extreme high powere where the strength is 'needed' .

From what I see, you need to get some more info ( internet, Harry Stines handbook of Model Rocketry,etc ), learn about rocketry, then grab some nice cardboard tubes, and turn some cones - cut fins and go to town building .

a good lathe can make cetering rings, etc not just the cones ( as you know), so you;d need little in the way or commercial product at all .

I;m always making rockets from cast-off tubing and components, sort of a personal challenge to build from 'junk' versus assembling a kit .

~ AL

CPMcGraw
07-29-2006, 03:20 PM
I realized that my last post probably didn't come across well. I just thought there would be more experimentation in model rocketry.

Mark,

We're happy to have you join our asylum and share your knowledge and experiences with us. As you have found out, yes, there are some differences between the Model Rocketry hobby and the Experimental Rocketry hobby. Size, power, and price being the three most distinguishable differences...

You will find a number of our band of "usual suspects" participate in HPR as well as traditional, classic ModRockery. One or two may even currently, or have in the past, participated in the EX Rocketry; so people-wise, we're not limited to just paper and wood models.

What most of this forum centers around, however, is ModRoc. Almost everyone associates this class of the hobby with Estes model rockets from the 1960's and 1970's. In other words, traditional, classic, paper and balsa models flown with pre-packaged A-E class black powder motors. Most of us are between 35 and 55, and we were associated with model rocketry in our early years, pre-teens through teenage. You'll find us often talking about OOP (out of production) designs from Estes and Centuri, the commercial "big two" of that timeframe.

Here is a shot of the rocket I cobbled together from cardboard, and the finished aluminum rocket. Don't worry, the aluminum one won't be launched, my son likes it so much for a toy he wouldn't let me launch it if I wanted to :-). I started on another carboard and plastic rocket also. I have the nosecone done and a chunk of cardboard for the body.

That's beautiful work on that nose cone, Mark. Don't worry, those skills can still translate to wood and paper. Aerodynamic principles are the same for all forms of rocketry. You'll hear one or more of us say that from time to time. Also, GreenDragon's comment about "The Handbook" is top-knotch. Every rocketry enthusiast, regardless of power interest, needs to have a copy of this book for basic reference.

Working with traditional paper and wood is just a change in the materials. The objectives are the same -- build light, build smart, build safe. The excitement is still there, maybe more so, since our lightweight creations cannot do the kind of damage a full-metal-jacket model of the same size can do if the recovery system fails to deploy. Most if not all of us are forced by circumstances to fly in restricted areas, like schoolyards or public parks; we can't afford to have serious damage caused by these models. Thus the NAR rules. Out in a desert, where you have miles and miles of nothing but miles for the beast to lawn dart into, it might be different.

Don't let the seeming flimsiness of paper and balsa fool you. Our materials allow us a great deal of creativity with the overall design; the pre-packaged motors mean simply we don't have to have special manufacturing permits just to enjoy the hobby. We're not exactly at the low-tech end of the hobby, either. Some of us on this forum use sophisticated computer tools to create flyable designs, which we can immediately flight-simulate without wasting material on a poor design beforehand. Again, look closely at the BARCLONE designs. Some are simple 3FNC and 4FNC models, but others are rather complex and challenging.

Again, Welcome to our asylum, Mark. It might take a bit of getting used to, but before long you'll understand what I'm trying to say...

my65pan
07-29-2006, 03:25 PM
Thanks guys,

Actually JSP the fins on the cardboard one were cut from the box my cable modem came in, and the tube was a chunk of shipping tube. The nosecone I machined from nylon Barone. The inside diameter of the nosecones on both of them were bored out also. The cardboard one was pretty much destroyed today when my rudementary motor mount failed and blew the motor instead of the chute. The nylon nosecone actually bounced when the rocket hit the ground nose first! Oh well, I have the nosecone and plenty of cardboard :-).

Green Dragon, you sound like me. I always try to fabricate my own stuff if I can, and modify just about everything that is store bought.

Mark.

my65pan
07-29-2006, 03:36 PM
CPMcGraw, you posted while I was typing :-). Anyhow, thanks for the welcome. After reading more about experimental rocketry I realize that the costs, etc. are a little more than I'm willing to get into so I guess I'll try my best to assimilate into the group here.

I'm looking around on the web now for some used carbon fiber tubing to make a rocket from, new stuff is way too pricey. I'm hoping to find someone with a broken carbon fiber bicycle frame or something like that. I assume carbon fiber is OK for rockets?

Mark.

Green Dragon
07-29-2006, 04:20 PM
Green Dragon, you sound like me. I always try to fabricate my own stuff if I can, and modify just about everything that is store bought.

Mark.

Mark,

truth be told, that's the largest thing that both drew me to , and keeps me in , the hobby - is the 'thrill of accomplishment', making things ,etc - also rocketry was a huge interest that lead me to go to vocational training as a machinist ( currently unemplyed as a machinist, however).

I've been deeply involved in High Power, and I still am semi-active in the experimental end (as Craig mentioned some of us might be, lol ), with the largest homebuilt motor I;ve flown being a mid-range L class.

Of late, I have become enamoured with the craftsmanship and design ideals o fthe 'rockets of my youth', lol... and have been having a great time building the classic designs from online plans and both commercial and homemade parts.

same 'challenge' of building with your own hands and seeing it fly, just differing in what you did ( ie: vintage repro means hunt plans, hunt or make parts, build it - sort of a scratchbuilt and kit together , then redraw (in most cases ) and print your own decals, etc ... that's just neat for me ) , where as hpr / exp involves more engineering, design, and fabrication, plus electrnics and safety issues ... not that either is exclusive to each other - what you ,personally need to stop and ask yourself , is " why do I want to do rockets " ... if you liek to build things then definately go the modroc / vintage route - super cool designs and much less cost.

again, welcome to the group and hope you enjoy your stay ( as noted, this is the 'old rockets' focused group, if you do decide to pursue exp ( which personally I don;t reccommend as a starting point until you understand rocketry basics and aerodynamics,etc FIRST ), then there are other excellent groups as well .

~ AL

ps: you mention a motor mount failure on your flight attempt, possibly elaborate and someone can point you in the right direction . nothing like getitng in a perfect flight :)

Green Dragon
07-29-2006, 04:24 PM
CPMcGraw, you posted while I was typing :-). Anyhow, thanks for the welcome. After reading more about experimental rocketry I realize that the costs, etc. are a little more than I'm willing to get into so I guess I'll try my best to assimilate into the group here.

I'm looking around on the web now for some used carbon fiber tubing to make a rocket from, new stuff is way too pricey. I'm hoping to find someone with a broken carbon fiber bicycle frame or something like that. I assume carbon fiber is OK for rockets?

Mark.

Carbon / fiberglass is certainly fine - many rockets built with those every year.

Although I imagine most ppl would consider carbon as a mid to high powered item - not really needed in low power - although if you have some carbon, it'd make a nice durable low powered rocket, and should not weight much over cardboard tubing.

another option, given your obvious metalworking skills, would be to make molded 'glass parts off your nosecone / mandrels ( all have been done, just depends what / how you proceed personally )

~ AL ( again , lol )

barone
07-29-2006, 04:33 PM
......I'm looking around on the web now for some used carbon fiber tubing to make a rocket from, new stuff is way too pricey. I'm hoping to find someone with a broken carbon fiber bicycle frame or something like that. I assume carbon fiber is OK for rockets?

Mark.


Mark,

Check E-bay. I saw some carbon fiber tubing up for bid there a few months back but I think it's a recurring item. Good luck.

Don
NAR 53455

JSP
07-29-2006, 04:49 PM
Thanks guys,

Actually JSP the fins on the cardboard one were cut from the box my cable modem came in, and the tube was a chunk of shipping tube. The nosecone I machined from nylon Barone. The inside diameter of the nosecones on both of them were bored out also. The cardboard one was pretty much destroyed today when my rudementary motor mount failed and blew the motor instead of the chute. The nylon nosecone actually bounced when the rocket hit the ground nose first! Oh well, I have the nosecone and plenty of cardboard :-).

Green Dragon, you sound like me. I always try to fabricate my own stuff if I can, and modify just about everything that is store bought.

Mark.

Ouch! I wish I could say that never happened to me! I hope the nylon didn't dent, it's a nice cone...

Royatl
07-30-2006, 11:09 AM
CPMcGraw, you posted while I was typing :-). Anyhow, thanks for the welcome. After reading more about experimental rocketry I realize that the costs, etc. are a little more than I'm willing to get into so I guess I'll try my best to assimilate into the group here.

I'm looking around on the web now for some used carbon fiber tubing to make a rocket from, new stuff is way too pricey. I'm hoping to find someone with a broken carbon fiber bicycle frame or something like that. I assume carbon fiber is OK for rockets?

Mark.

It has certainly been done, and is within the rules, if not the spirit, of model rocketry, and for some high speed (0.85 mach and above) designs, it is necessary. But you'd be surprised as to what can be done with paper tubes, selectively reinforced by fiberglass, kevlar, or carbon fiber.

For motors commercially available over the counter (A-G), all of that is overkill. Rockets made strictly of paper and wood can take up to K or L power with proper design, though most people start to use G10 fiberglass fins before they get to that level, and they start to use at least 2oz. to 6oz. fiberglass covering the bodies by then, if only for reinforcing ground handling!

Go check out www.publicmissiles.com for what are considered by many to be state of the art high power rockets. Or www.locprecision.com for big paper/wood/plastic designs.

my65pan
07-30-2006, 01:06 PM
Royatl, thanks for the links, I think I'll order some tubing when I use up what I have. What are some options for fin material?

Mark.

Tweener
07-30-2006, 05:54 PM
....I'll try my best to assimilate into the group here.You never had a choice. Resistance is futile! :D

my65pan
07-30-2006, 07:22 PM
You never had a choice. Resistance is futile! :D


I had a feeling that was coming :-).

Ltvscout
07-30-2006, 09:51 PM
Here is a shot of the rocket I cobbled together from cardboard, and the finished aluminum rocket. Don't worry, the aluminum one won't be launched, my son likes it so much for a toy he wouldn't let me launch it if I wanted to :-).
Whoa! That aluminum rocket is slick! I'd launch it if it were mine, but only in an area away from homes, kids and cars and no dry grass. (Right, Bill?) ;)
If you do launch it I'd make the first launch using a B6-2 motor. You need something with some oomph to get it off the pad, and also a short delay due to the weight. If you can find some C5-3's (not C6-3's) in an old hobby shop around you, (they're no longer made) that would be another one to try it on.

Royatl
07-30-2006, 10:48 PM
Royatl, thanks for the links, I think I'll order some tubing when I use up what I have. What are some options for fin material?

Mark.

Model aircraft plywood,

Model aircraft plywood covered in fiberglass,

G10 fiberglass. You can get this in all sorts of thicknesses. I use extremely thin (0.03" and less) G10 for tiny competition rockets. 1/8" and over can be used on high power rockets. Those PML rockets use G10 fins.

Built up designs (for instance, I have a couple of high power rockets that have very light fins made of a core of model aircraft plywood, between sheets of thick balsa, airfoiled, and the whole assembly is wrapped in 6oz. fiberglass.)

my65pan
08-12-2006, 11:02 AM
Well, I launched the aluminum rocket this morning, and it flew flawlessly. After the second launch the nosecone would not fit loose enough to fly safely though. It has a ding at the top edge of the BT. Fun experiment, but now on display in my ham radio shack.

Ltvscout
08-12-2006, 11:11 AM
Well, I launched the aluminum rocket this morning, and it flew flawlessly. After the second launch the nosecone would not fit loose enough to fly safely though. It has a ding at the top edge of the BT. Fun experiment, but now on display in my ham radio shack.
Pictures!

my65pan
08-12-2006, 12:41 PM
I forgot the camera this morning :-(.

Tweener
08-12-2006, 10:02 PM
I forgot the camera this morning :-(.Awww, shucks... :(

my65pan
08-19-2006, 03:03 PM
I flew it again this morning and forgot the camera again also. The thing flies perfectly. I have begun work on a larger and a smaller version.