New Estes Composite pricing ??

[ghrocketman]

Saw an announcement in a publication regarding the pricing of the new Estes Composite Engines.
Saw that the F was something lovely like $54.00 retail but included a $25 haz mat charge.

Are they for freakin' real ?
Even if that includes a $25 haz mat charge in the price, that is still $29.00 for an F engine !

Who do they plan to have pay these prices ?
Not even NASA as their budget has been cut enough to where they can't afford 'em either.

Most that know about and fly F power and above know about Aerotech SU, and also know about reloadables. Most that also do so know about the internet and order online to save mega buxx.

This sounds like another failed entry into mid-power for the big E to me.
I was hoping an association with Estes of these relabled Aerotech motors would result in LOWER prices due to their vast distribution network.

Whomever is setting these prices must have not one, but a dozen screws loose.

I know the ONLY way I will be purchasing any is if they hit the shelves at a Hobby Lobby for about $29 (with no haz mat included) and I can use a 40-50% off coupon. Otherwise, NO SALE !

[Ltvscout]

Maybe that's for qty 2 or 3 motors in a pack?

[Doug Sams]

Saw an announcement in a publication regarding the pricing of the new Estes Composite Engines.
Saw that the F was something lovely like $54.00 retail but included a $25 haz mat charge.

Are they for freakin' real ?
Even if that includes a $25 haz mat charge in the price, that is still $29.00 for an F engine !

Who do they plan to have pay these prices ?
Not even NASA as their budget has been cut enough to where they can't afford 'em either.

Most that know about and fly F power and above know about Aerotech SU, and also know about reloadables. Most that also do so know about the internet and order online to save mega buxx.

This sounds like another failed entry into mid-power for the big E to me.
I was hoping an association with Estes of these relabled Aerotech motors would result in LOWER prices due to their vast distribution network.

Whomever is setting these prices must have not one, but a dozen screws loose.

I know the ONLY way I will be purchasing any is if they hit the shelves at a Hobby Lobby for about $29 (with no haz mat included) and I can use a 40-50% off coupon. Otherwise, NO SALE !There was a thread about this on TRF (http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=31330&highlight=Estes) .

The pricing was presented quite awkwardly on the Estes website. In fact, it's still up there (http://www.estesrockets.com/rockets/pro-series/engines-1) .

They're supposed to redo the web pages to make it clearer what the actual costs are.

All that said, I still find it very disappointing that Estes would put something so misleading up on their website. It seems to have done nothing but draw them criticism.

Doug

.

[ghrocketman]

Nope it was EACH !
I have heard that there was some discussion about it over on that OTHER forum also...
Completely ASININE if true.....
Somebody in the pricing department must have fallen out of a tall tree and bumped their head HARD to come up with these numbers.

[Doug Sams]

Nope it was EACH !
I have heard that there was some discussion about it over on that OTHER forum also...
Completely ASININE if true.....
Somebody in the pricing department must have fallen out of a tall tree and bumped their head HARD to come up with these numbers.Yes, it was presented as each (and thus very misleading). But it should have been subtracted out at checkout. At least we assume it would have - surely the web page writer wasn't that far in the dark :(

Doug

.

[Shreadvector]

Same as the E9 pricing.

They will sell tens of thousands of these through normal retail distribution. Those will be priced at normal retail price and any HAZMAT shipping will be handled appropriately (many big hobby chains use their own trucks).

The Estes website lists the price plus HAZMAT for one motor/pack. If you read all the words (which were explained long ago when the E9 pricing appeared) you will see that the HAZMAT fee virtually disappears when you buy larger quantities. Like 20 packs (E9) or motors (F, G).

[mojo1986]

Heck, I wouldn't consider buying their F engines at those prices! In fact, $29 per engine is well above what I would want to pay. Zero sales here.

Joe

[Shreadvector]

Heck, I wouldn't consider buying their F engines at those prices! In fact, $29 per engine is well above what I would want to pay. Zero sales here.

Joe

Once again, for those hard of hearing, the full MSRP for an Estes Composite F motor is $24.95 and for a G it is $26.99

The price displayed CLEARLY includes the HAZMAT fee to ship them directly to you legally.

SAVE $20.00 on each F or G engine when you purchase 3-6 F or G engines.

SAVE $25.00 on each F or G engine when you purchase 7-11 F or G engines.

SAVE $30.00 on each F or G engine when you purchase 12-20 F or G engines.

Exactly the same price as Aerotech motors

http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/est/est9777.htm

[turbofireball]

In addition to shreadvector's correct post, the Estes E30 has a suggested retail price of $20.99, and the Aerotech E30 suggested retail price is $59.99 for 3 motors (a little savings by buying them in a 3pack). Once all the Estes motors are available, you should be able to find them discounted at the local hobby shop, just the same as the Aerotech motors. The online guys will most likely be discounting them also. Online, the E motors should be shippable without a hazmat charge thru USPS, but the F and G motors will obviously need to be shipped with the UPS hazmat charge.

[ghrocketman]

I'm pretty sure you can get 3 Aerotech E30's for $19.99 on their valuerockets.com website plus shipping.
Far cry from $59.99 which is just plain ASININE.

[ghrocketman]

Correction: E15's are $20.99 per 3-pak on the Value Rockets website...they jacked the price of E30's to $59.99 to match the new Estes pricing...what a JOKE and a freakin' RIPOFF and I know darned well it is just to not undercut the asinine new Estes pricing.

[mojo1986]

Once again, for those hard of hearing, the full MSRP for an Estes Composite F motor is $24.95 and for a G it is $26.99

The price displayed CLEARLY includes the HAZMAT fee to ship them directly to you legally.

SAVE $20.00 on each F or G engine when you purchase 3-6 F or G engines.

SAVE $25.00 on each F or G engine when you purchase 7-11 F or G engines.

SAVE $30.00 on each F or G engine when you purchase 12-20 F or G engines.

Exactly the same price as Aerotech motors

http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/est/est9777.htm



WOW! Thanks for the info! Does this mean that if you buy 12 or more engines they will actually pay you to take them off their hands??

[Ltvscout]

WOW! Thanks for the info! Does this mean that if you buy 12 or more engines they will actually pay you to take them off their hands??
:chuckle:

Sign me up for a gross!

[Jerry Irvine]

Correction: E15's are $20.99 per 3-pak on the Value Rockets website...they jacked the price of E30's to $59.99 to match the new Estes pricing...what a JOKE and a freakin' RIPOFF and I know darned well it is just to not undercut the asinine new Estes pricing.I was skeptical of this claim because a known rabble-rouser uttered it. Hi GH. So I went to valuerockets.com and selected the E30 and E15 and did screen shots to see the comparative pricing.

http://www.v-serv.com/-upload/AT-E15.png

http://www.v-serv.com/-upload/AT-E30.png

It turns out the rabble-rouser is 100% correct that Errortech charges $59.99 for the E30 and $20.99 for the nearly identical E15.

Lest I be lashed for saying error, I attach HARD PROOF Aerotech is in fact in error.

Just Factually Citing Jerry

[Kidagain]

I might be off base here, but are these rebrandeed engines made to Estes requested specs?

[Jerry Irvine]

They are motors of 100% Aerotech engineering and production and sold relabeled as Estes. AT has sold motors relabeled in the past as U.S. Rockets (80's), Public Missiles (90's), and several others. I do not recall them ever selling reloads as relabeled, only SU.

These motors have several interesting engineering advances. They use an engineered plastic case that integrates the nozzle, a thrust ring, a specialized closure method using a thread, and a method to use less glue as the wet seal. The bulkhead integrates an ejection cap retainer. All these features lower the labor per unit to assemble them. It is a really slick system engineered largely by Dan Meyer and Gary Rosenfield.

The NCR/Estes F62 had an equally slick casing designed largely by Scott Dixon, but because of the fight between Matt Steele and Barry Tunik, as well as slack sales, that spectacular system was removed from market and likely will not be seen again, and even if it is the pricing is likely to be similarly high as the AT/Estes system.

Had the USR branded motors which were certified simply been renewed rather than arbitrarily banned in 1991-2 we would still see them on the market today. I point out USR even had a NOZZLELESS CERTIFIED rocket motor.

Historical link for the uninformed: link (http://v-serv.com/usr/motors/H90nozzleless.htm)

Pricing discussion aside these are spectacularly great motors and it will literally be a new era to have them widely available through all channels Estes currently serves. THE PRICING IS NECESSARY BECAUSE ESTES SELLS TO THEIR CUSTOMERS AT 65% OFF RETAIL. In case you didn't know that. 59.99/3*0.35=$7.00 per motor net net.

Jerry

Dozens of styles of old SU motors at the ready upon renewal cert per the rules, or any new submission USR ever chooses to undertake.

[ManofSteele]

It's just amazing what you don't know, Jerry.

Your statements abut the NCR F62 and the reasons for their discontinuation are incorrect.

Matt

[blackshire]

Nope it was EACH !
I have heard that there was some discussion about it over on that OTHER forum also...
Completely ASININE if true.....
Somebody in the pricing department must have fallen out of a tall tree and bumped their head HARD to come up with these numbers.If Estes' composite F motors are indeed $29 apiece, the only way I *might* buy -one- of the motors would be as a collector's item--because at that price, I think they would soon become collectible...

[Jerry Irvine]

It's just amazing what you don't know, Jerry.

Your statements abut the NCR F62 and the reasons for their discontinuation are incorrect.

MattFeel free to correct the record from what was made public by one side of the argument. Until corrected, that is what stands, however. So far your position seems to be, that's wrong, but no comment.

I do know this. The F62 had the exact same internal grain geometry in 1999 as the USR F40 did in 1984 and before. Coincidence? With NCR established disassembling so many USR products? Hmmmmm.

Jerry

[Shreadvector]

If Estes' composite F motors are indeed $29 apiece, the only way I *might* buy -one- of the motors would be as a collector's item--because at that price, I think they would soon become collectible...

Normal list price is on line.

http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/est/est9774.htm

http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/est/est9772.htm

etc.

[Bob H]

Normal list price is on line.

http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/est/est9774.htm

http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/est/est9772.htm

etc.Don't confuse us with facts.. :rolleyes:

[Peter Olivola]

Mid and high power has never been for everyone.

If Estes' composite F motors are indeed $29 apiece, the only way I *might* buy -one- of the motors would be as a collector's item--because at that price, I think they would soon become collectible...

[Jerry Irvine]

They're not even out yet and they are already 35% off to end users.

So much for brick and mortar.

BTW that link states, "F26-6 Engine Pro Series II HAZ (est9772) Estes Model Rocket Rocket Engine Reloadable - Medium"

I doubt it is reloadable.

Jerry

[Daddyisabar]

At least the big boy's brick and mortar will be saved. Why at $25 with my 40% off Hobby Lobby coupon I will run right in and buy em up . . . at $15.00 per shoot . . . a NO THANKS!

After a long time I finally went to the LHS last week and looked at all the retail Estes kits and none of them followed me home. What is happening to me? I must be sick. I have a fever and the only cure is . . . once a year on line Christmas sales? :(

[RWmarlow]

as far as i'm concerned any vendor in any market venue is so welcome in a niche hobby such as ours!...support and fellowship make the hobby work

[blackshire]

At least the big boy's brick and mortar will be saved. Why at $29 with my 40% off Hobby Lobby coupon I will run right in and buy em up . . . at $17.40 per shoot . . . a NO THANKS!

After a long time I finally went to the LHS last week and looked at all the retail Estes kits and none of them followed me home. What is happening to me? I must be sick. I have a fever and the only cure is . . . once a year on line Christmas sales? :(I agree. Engaging in our hobby can be compared to salt water fishing or fresh water (lake) fishing from a boat. If you start thinking about what the cost per pound of the fish come(s) to (taking into account the costs of the boat, its fuel, its license, the fuel for the vehicle that tows the boat to the marina or lake, the fishing license, etc.), it can quickly ruin one's enjoyment of the experience. (For outsiders who fly up here to Alaska to hunt moose and bears, the cost per pound of the meat and/or skin is almost astronomical--but we're glad that they spend their money here all the same...) Also:

Likewise, when rocket motors (and to a lesser extent, rocket kits) exceed a certain price, it is very hard to *not* think about how many dollars per -second- that one is paying for the experience of watching a model rocket fly. At least the cost of an expensive kit can (with care and a little luck) be spread out over many flights, but not the cost of an expensive single-use motor. Everyone has his or her own "not enjoyed beyond--" price, but even $10 per motor is beyond the point where--even though I *can* afford more expensive motors--literally burning that amount of money in just a few seconds is no longer enjoyable.

[jdbectec]

Using online inflation calculators, I determined that the Enerjet F52-x that sold for $5.00 in 1972 would sell for 26.91 today.

Having said that: a retail of $24.99 isn't really so bad.

On the otherhand, $5.00 was what I got for mowing a lawn in 1972, and bagging the clippings.

:)

[jetlag]

Well, Jeffery, I'd have to disagree: $100 for 4 F engines is just stupid. The price on Hobbylinc is better, but I still think even that is a bit high. IMHO of course!

Allen

[blackshire]

Well, Jeffery, I'd have to disagree: $100 for 4 F engines is just stupid. The price on Hobbylinc is better, but I still think even that is a bit high. IMHO of course!For that kind of money, I'd want at least "stars and a report." :-)

Seriously, though, a friend of mine even makes such outlay vs. enjoyment calculations for the ammunition he uses (he shoots mostly .22 long rifle and occasionally .25 pistol ammo), even though he is not poor and has guns that shoot 7.62 mm and 9 mm cartridges, as well as a 12 gauge shotgun. I recently found a local vendor that sells .22 short cartridges for what comes to ~9 cents per round, and he has looked into finding a pistol that shoots them--as he puts it, "Collecting guns is an investment; shooting is a luxury."

[ghrocketman]

The Aerotech Valuerockets.com pricing for the E30 and E15 was exactly the same at $20.99 until that asinine Estes $59.99/3 E30's price came out. THAT is what really ticks me off. Because Estes is now relabeling them under their brand as well, we are expected to bend over and take it if we now want E30's.
The acronym BOHICA fits well here !

Estes should just stick to what they know, BP SU motors, and actually bring back the motors we are ASKING for like the FARGIN' B14 !!!!!

[Scott21]

The Aerotech Valuerockets.com pricing for the E30 and E15 was exactly the same at $20.99 until that asinine Estes $59.99/3 E30's price came out.
Ummm, $60 for three is $20 per motor. Why is that not better than $21 per motor?

[Peter Olivola]

Don't try to confuse him. He's on a roll. :-)

Ummm, $60 for three is $20 per motor. Why is that not better than $21 per motor?

[Doug Sams]

Ummm, $60 for three is $20 per motor. Why is that not better than $21 per motor?The $20.99 was for a 3-pack of E30 motors, I believe. At least, the E15's are still listed on Valuerockets for $20.99/3-pack.

I bought some E30 packs from Valuerockets a while back. Can't recall what I paid, but I'm pretty sure it was closer to 20.99 than 59.99 ;)

Doug

.

[ghrocketman]

The E15 and E30 were $20.99 per 3 PAK on the valuerockets website until the asinine Estes pricing came out. Once that came out, Aerotech jakked up the E30 price on the valuerockets website. Pleases Estes I'm sure but it pi$$es off all of us that order E30's from that site as the price now FARGIN' TRIPLED !!!!

Once again, Peter has nothing worthwhile to say and continues to SPEW CANINE FECAL MATTER...take your feeble brain out of NEUTRAL before putting your trap into REVERSE to receive your FOOT !

[Jerry Irvine]

If you don't like high prices for motors or gasoline, blame the Fed. They print money and devalue the dollar. While it is more true under Obama than any other President in history, Carter came a close second.

Get a job. Pay the money. GFL.

Jerry

[Jerry Irvine]

Aerotech jakked up the E30 priceObama/Geithner/Bernanke jacked down the value of the dollar by 50%. Milk, propellant and gasoline is now 100% pricier. Hoard assets.

Jerry

[crossfire]

I guess its time for us to fly CTI 24mm and 29mm motors. I heard they are going to come out with a Pro-18mm motor.
PG

[Vanel]

Yep, the price for E30's is through the roof...

Is it not possible that the increase in price - which happened before Estes releases their motors - is in part due to the high demand from TARC teams? The E30 is a very popular motor this year...

[Doug Sams]

Yep, the price for E30's is through the roof...

Is it not possible that the increase in price - which happened before Estes releases their motors - is in part due to the high demand from TARC teams? The E30 is a very popular motor this year... Bill,

I suspect it's because of the change in the situation presented by Estes now selling them. Valuerockets.com had low-balled some motors in hopes of stimulating business on them - business that wasn't already moving elsewhere in the channels. In other words, these motors were slow-selling thru AT's resellers, so they cut out the middle men in hopes of catalyzing the mid-power segment. I think the rationale was that they needed to enable more users to migrate up from Estes A-B-C-D impulse levels, and they could do that by making E-F mid power motors more affordable.

Two or three years ago, there were some threads on the various rocketry forums that preceded this, and the complaints of many fliers were that the mid-power motors were too expensive. So AT responded with low-balling some of them.

Now that they have a potentially lucrative channel for E30's via Estes, it appears they are trying to avoid undercutting it by raising the prices on them. It makes sense in that light, but compared to the E15's, it doesn't seem that way ;)

Doug

.

[jetlag]

Why does anyone think that by tripling the price for E30 motors more people will be buying them? Who cares whether Estes sells them or not ; tripling the price, whether by Estes or Aerotech is just absolutely moronic. GH is totally correct.
There is no excuse. Perhaps Estes can weigh in on this, or Aerotech can, if they've got the guts to confront this ridiculous example of price-gouging. :mad:

Allen

[blackshire]

I guess its time for us to fly CTI 24mm and 29mm motors. I heard they are going to come out with a Pro-18mm motor.
PGIf they do produce 18 mm motors (I presume these would also be reloadable, like their larger motors), it would open up some interesting possibilities, *IF* their sales volumes were large enough to enable good bargains on the propellant grain and delay grain reloads. These include (but are by no means limited to) the following:


[1] We could have composite propellant equivalents of B14 motors, with all of the delays that were available for the original black powder ones. Even a B14-0 might be feasible, if the reloadable composite motor used a 1/2 second or 1 second delay (although there might be another way to make composite booster motors, as I've described below in [3].

[2] The reloadable 18 mm motor cases and the propellant/delay reload kits could be used to put together replacements for the non-bulk packaged, long-delay Estes "A" and "B" upper stage motors (A8-5, B4-6, B6-6) that are ideal for use in lightweight, bulk-packaged single-stage Estes rockets such as the Viking and Wizard. If CTI actively marketed such motor kits to schools, the Scouts, 4-H Clubs, the Civil Air Patrol, Camp Fire USA, and other youth groups, large sales volumes might make possible significant discounts for the propellant and delay reload kits. Also:

Such reloadable motors could be tailored by the end users to fit their flying field sizes (even to using "1/4A" or "1/2A" reloads for flying from very small fields and/or on windy days, if neccesary). In addition, such motors would have greater educational value because the kids could actually see what the motors' innards look like ("Here's the nozzle, the case, the propellant grain, the delay grain," etc.), and the teachers or instructors could discuss the various motor components and their functions with the children. As well, the reloadable motors would lend themselves to repeated static firings on club and school-type motor performance-recording static test stands, with pre-firing and post-firing inspections of the motor components.

[3] If CTI produced modified end-burning composite propellant grains (similar to modified end-burning black powder motors, which have a "dimple" in the propellant for the tip of the igniter -and- to provide more burning surface [and thus greater thrust] at ignition) for the 18 mm reloadable composite motors, they might make possible black powder-like booster motors, where the burn-through of the thin remaining disc of the composite propellant at the top of the grain would cause burning particles of propellant to jet forward to ignite a black powder second stage motor above it (in either a butt-joined or gap-staged configuration). Also:

If this proved feasible, then low-power, small-field multi-stage (at least two-stage) flying would be a very practical proposition. The bottom stage could use a reloadable 18 mm composite motor that had a "1/4A" or a "1/2A" modified end-burning composite propellant grain, but *no* delay grain. (If necessary, an open cardboard "liner tube" could be installed where the delay grain would ordinarily be, in order to protect that part of the motor case from the burning propellant particles.) The rocket's second stage (and the third stage, if the field size and the all-up rocket weight allowed a third stage) could use a 13 mm black powder "1/4A" or "1/2A" motor such as the 1/4A3-3T or the 1/2A3-4T (the latter motor would be preferable due to its longer delay).

[Jerry Irvine]

What most people do not understand because it is counter-intuitive, is that the higher the price the higher the sales, to an extent. It is a bell curve like everything else in life. The optimum sales or the optimum profit are at two different points on the curve. The reason we are near a tail on the curve right now is the price is low and the sales volume is low. You can buy a $20.99 three pack of AT E15 motors from a discount dealer for 35% off that or about 4.55 per motor. However, at that price the folks buying them are internet connected club joining folks buying through a single central outlet, that discount dealer(s).

Once the product is distributed to every hobby and variety store in the country and on display, the other 98% of the market will have access to them. However that access comes at the profit margin that those channels use for every other product besides model rocketry, like medicine, shampoo, greeting cards, Mattel toys, whatever. That store buys for 40% off retail and they buy from a distributor who pays 25% off of that, and there is another 5% off that for salesmen and such. So the Hot Wheels car you see on the shelf for $1.99 retail is being sold by Mattel in Hawthorne, CA for about $0.70 per unit in mass quantities.

So raising the price and the dealer discounts makes the product 50x (5000% more) available to end users. So those online resellers that sell at 35% off to end users will now sell at $13.00 per motor, but the same motor will at least be available at SOME price in the local store where the rest of the world can at least discover and enjoy it.

Jerry

[mojo1986]

Using online inflation calculators, I determined that the Enerjet F52-x that sold for $5.00 in 1972 would sell for 26.91 today.

Having said that: a retail of $24.99 isn't really so bad.

On the otherhand, $5.00 was what I got for mowing a lawn in 1972, and bagging the clippings.

:)

Was that for a single engine, or a two-pack?

[Jerry Irvine]

Single

[Jerry Irvine]

they might make possible black powder-like booster motors, where the burn-through of the thin remaining disc of the composite propellant at the top of the grain would cause burning particles of propellant to jet forward to ignite a black powder second stage motor above it (in either a butt-joined or gap-staged configuration). We had them in production through most of the 80's and the early 90's in a wide range of powers and thrusts. Here is a photograph of one!

http://v-serv.com/usr/motors/images/USR.SU.D12-0,4,8.jpg

Those are 24mm 20D12 motors.

They are practical to make and can ignite BP upper motors and with a special igniter we used to make, also ignite an APCP upper motor.

Just Jerry

[Doug Sams]

Why does anyone think that by tripling the price for E30 motors more people will be buying them? Who cares whether Estes sells them or not ; tripling the price, whether by Estes or Aerotech is just absolutely moronic. GH is totally correct.
There is no excuse. Perhaps Estes can weigh in on this, or Aerotech can, if they've got the guts to confront this ridiculous example of price-gouging. :mad:

AllenAllen,

Obviously, none of us motor consumers want to see the price go up. And, as has been posted here and elsewhere, when it's all said and done, the actual 3-pack buy price won't be anywhere near $59.99. (But I expect it to be higher than $20.99, FWIW. And I still think listing them at 59.99 is poor, counter-productive communications.)

In short, Estes' new owners, Hobbico, think they can sell lots of rebranded E30's and that AT will come out ahead on the deal, even with a price increase. IOW, Hobbico/Estes' deal/offer to AT is looking a lot better (to AT) than the business presented by all us guys making the occasional purchase on Valuerockets.com .

If I'm AT, I gotta go where the biz is. These guys have been chewed up the past 10 years or so, losing their operation to a fire, losing a big retailer like Hobby Lobby, getting squeezed mightily by the ATF and then withstanding the challenges of new competitors. So I completely understand them jumping to attention, so to speak, when somebody with big bux comes calling.

Anyway, we gotta wait and see how it all shakes out. Who knows, maybe when it's all said and done, we'll be buying 3-packs of E30's for 15 bucks with a 40% off coupon at Hobby Lobby :)

Doug

.

[Jerry Irvine]

I will remind you all that when it was announced Hobbico was taking over Estes, it was as if the second coming had arrived. They could do no wrong. This should be factored in when judging how they are coming to market with a reasonably full line of composite motors and associated kits for the very first time.

When Enerjet "died" I went to sell motors for Composite Dynamics who was ready and willing to sell 24mm E and F as well as 29mm F and associated kits to dealers for the price and discount that best served THEM. Sales were a bunch better than Enerjet ever was but nowhere close to Estes, Centuri, MPC, Cox or others.

When CD finally dissolved the next phase was Aerotech. I was their first customer, first dealer and for years the largest. That line was not as discount friendly, so shifted the market to a direct sale model and Gary@AT had a mind to capture as many direct sales as possible and supported dealers as an afterthought, kinda like Apple was doing at the time.

Recently when AT persued the Hobby Lobby and larger boutique dealers with deeper discounts, those were largely benefiting larger buyers, not a formal distribution model like Estes has with distributors that combine shipments of multi-vendors to single shipments to dealers to reduce inventory cos and shipping cost. That's what a good distributor does.

If you simply give a bigger discount to large on-site dealers like magnum, What's up, and others, that typically results in deep consumer discounts and discount shifting. In the long run that helps nobody and the line decays. We saw that with AT.

With Estes being a traditional manufacturer using traditional distributors selling to traditional dealers, the whole meme will change and we will finally see a full scale market test of composite motors. It will be interesting. If APCP sales are over 15% of BP sales, I will be extremely excited. I am expecting to be underwhelmed to the tune of 8%. Probably the only folks capable of tracking that will be disinclined to disclose the results, being a private company, but that's what Rick Piester should look for.

The motor design being used is literally the work of a lifetime by Gary Rosenfield. So for his sake and those of us who have supported and encouraged a couple decades of product development, I hope it is a market success. I actually think it will be. It will require at least 2 years of patience to let consumers become accustomed to them and the different usage patterns. I hope Hobbico has that patience.

Jerry

[Daddyisabar]

Value rockets was great when it first appeared, then things went downhill fast as free shipping orders went from $100 -$150 -$250 and E 30's were always out of stock due to reengineering. Never could get enough guys together to buy $250 worth of SU E-15’s or 18mm. For us handful of wee BARs it did get us into discounted cases and reloads from online vendors. Now all I see to see with the new wee BARs is Cessaroni, leaving us seasoned boys with old Aerotech casings, spending all of our precious launch time building and greasing complicated motors, while praying the club’s old launch system connections are good enough to light our Copperheads.

I have a dream that someday I can walk into Hobby Lobby with my 40% coupon and buy a three pack of E-30’s for $15, and come back with another coupon and buy a reissue Maxi Brute kit. I have a dream that someday all kits and motors will be judged by their content and not just by the label on the face card. I have a dream. . .

[Shreadvector]

Estes E30 motors are in single packs, not 3 packs.

The ValueRockets price is the single motor price times 3 since ValuRockets sells them in a 3 pack.

ValueRockets does not discount many of the items listed on their site. They discount some 'entry level' items to get people introduced to buying and flying composite single use and small reloadables. The medium sized items are priced at normal MSRP, so as not to undercut their retailers.

People were screaming bloody murder when they first went online and had discounted motors, but those were the motors that simply were not selling in decent quantities through normal retail/reseller channels.

The E15 is better for TARC this year. Slightly more total impulse than an E30, and it is identical to the E20. Actual average thrust is around 22N.

[turbofireball]

I looked up old retail pricing for E30 motors. These prices are suggested retail prices as stated by Aerotech for a single motor: 2002-2003..$11, Aug 2004...$13, Dec 2004...$14, May 2006...$15. Those were the prices per motor before they started selling them at Valuerockets for 3 for $20.99, which was most likely close to their cost. So now we are in 2012 with the price being 3 for $60 from Valuerockets or single motor from Estes at $21. Again, these are suggested retail pricing. I have already seen online shops preparing to sell them for $15 or less for a single motor.

[blackshire]

We had them in production through most of the 80's and the early 90's in a wide range of powers and thrusts. Here is a photograph of one!

http://v-serv.com/usr/motors/images/USR.SU.D12-0,4,8.jpg

Those are 24mm 20D12 motors.

They are practical to make and can ignite BP upper motors and with a special igniter we used to make, also ignite an APCP upper motor.

Just JerryExcellent--I'd love to see these (or composite booster motors like them) make a comeback!

[ghrocketman]

No way in Hades will I EVER pay ~$15 for a single motor that was being sold online ANYWHERE for $20.99 for THREE motors; I don't care what distributor, wholesaler, retailer etc. can't survive at those prices.
THEE ONLY thing that matters to me is the bottom line price here; If I feel I'm being ripped off (which IS what is going on here), they get exactly what they deserve; ZERO of my $$$ B-U-X-X BUXX !!!!

[turbofireball]

Well you have every right to that thought. So let's see...last time B14 motors were available they were 3 for $2.25. So if Estes came out with them again at $12 for a pack of 3, according to your last statement, you wouldn't buy them.

[tbzep]

Well you have every right to that thought. So let's see...last time B14 motors were available they were 3 for $2.25. So if Estes came out with them again at $12 for a pack of 3, according to your last statement, you wouldn't buy them.
Only if B8 motors were being sold right beside them at 9 for $2.50. ;)

[ghrocketman]

That was a 'STINKS OF RUNNY CANINE FECAL MATTER' statement in regards to B14's above that made NO SENSE.
B14's have not been readily available for about 35 years.
The pricing of readily available E30's literally TRIPLED OVERNIGHT !
There is ZERO logic in comparing the two.

Would you buy C6-5's if literally as soon as someone else starts marketing them for Estes they jump from $9/pak to $27 ???
I don't think so...if you do you are a FOOL. If they can be sold at a $9 price point with a profit, at $27 you are being RIPPED off. Same with $20.99 for 3 E30's going to $59.99. Total gouge RIPOFF.

I would expect B14's to cost a modest amount (say $1 to $1.50 more, street price) over a typical 3-pak of 18mm B or C engines due to the extra manufacturing step, but NO more. Pass on the actual cost with zero extra padding of profit which they already MAKE PLENTY !

Anybody that thinks B14's would not sell based on 1975 marketing statistics when last produced has FECAL MATTER FOR BRAINS (commonly known as a %#@*-head) and needs to do a MODERN market study of likely consumers of the product.

[turbofireball]

I'm sure Estes, being a multi-million-dollar corporation, now funded by an even bigger corporation, does modern marketing studies on motor sales every year. If you think you are their average likely consumer, you need to do your own marketing study. Please do that study, I await your results. In the meantime, I'm going to clean out the fecal matter in my head.

[Joe Wooten]

Excellent--I'd love to see these (or composite booster motors like them) make a comeback!

I still have several of those I bought from Aerotech in the 80's. I used a D12-0/D12-8 to lose a modified Apache 2 Near Granbury TX. I got the booster back and chased the upper stage for over 10 miles before losing sight of it, and that was with a streamer.

[Doug Sams]

I got the booster back and chased the upper stage for over 10 miles before losing sight of it, and that was with a streamer.Gee, Joe, think maybe it mighta been too windy that day for rockets? :D:D:D

Seriously, did you catch a thermal?

I was flying rockets here in Plano with a another local flier one day, and he was also flying hand launched gliders. He had his trimmed to fly in circles. On one flight, he caught a thermal and we could see the thing start climbing in a cork screw while slowing heading east.

Fortunately, I don't think it went more than a mile or so before Dave caught up with it :)

Doug

.

[Grimracer]

I'm sure Estes, being a multi-million-dollar corporation, now funded by an even bigger corporation, does modern marketing studies on motor sales every year. If you think you are their average likely consumer, you need to do your own marketing study. Please do that study, I await your results. In the meantime, I'm going to clean out the fecal matter in my head.


one up!

Grimracer

[Jerry Irvine]

Setting aside GH's unfortunate, but typical rhetoric, his main point is he views the situation from a purely selfish perspective. My point was that when you shift from the needs of the one to the needs of the many (cute SF reference) the whole situation changes. Prices go up but so does investment by key players in conveying the product to the masses rather than the most vociferous, selfish, minority of whiners. Or perhaps the "lowest common denominator".

I for one am cheering for Estes/Hobbico/Errortech (cute HPR reference).

Jerry

[Bill]

[1] We could have composite propellant equivalents of B14 motors, with all of the delays that were available for the original black powder ones.


It is actually easier than that. CTI delay trains are designed to be adjustable by the end user. Drill, baby, drill!


Bill

[Jerry Irvine]

Drill, baby, drill!What's phunnie is I was saying that on rmr (not in those words) re. AT motors for several years before they formally allowed the drilling of delays. But typical of Gary, only did so because he noticed CTI was already doing it. A lost decade of legal AT mods was lost due to stubborness.

Jerry

[tbzep]

What's phunnie is I was saying that on rmr (not in those words) re. AT motors for several years before they formally allowed the drilling of delays. But typical of Gary, only did so because he noticed CTI was already doing it. A lost decade of legal AT mods was lost due to stubborness.

Jerry
And CTI did it because we had already been doing it for years with our EX motors. ;)

[Jerry Irvine]

And CTI did it because we had already been doing it for years with our EX motors. ;)Long before there was EX there was USR, and USR as a dealer suggested mods of CD, USR, AT, PJ, and IBCo motors too. Very long before like 1984-1992. I think TRA invented EX in about 1995 or so.

Just historical Jerry

[tbzep]

Long before there was EX there was USR, and USR as a dealer suggested mods of CD, USR, AT, PJ, and IBCo motors too. Very long before like 1984-1992. I think TRA invented EX in about 1995 or so.

Just historical Jerry
TRA didn't invent EX. TRA coined the EX name because we were already doing it long before it was called EX.

[Jerry Irvine]

Nope. EX is a TRA invention to do prior "amateur rocketry" with a club flag.

Prior amateur rocketry was necessarily indy and legal. The very act of redefining it made it overtly illegal (unlawful) in several jurisdictions.

TRA-EX is the single act that brought ATF scrutiny to HPR as a concern for "technology transfer", which the NSA determined happened in practice, due to TRA-EX related websites visible to foreign nationals. Before you call BS, I call to your attention the "sudden" progress those foreign nationals made immediately after this venture was made widely public.

There has been amateur rocketry since at least 1943, but the methods were not widely published since including RRI, RRS, PRS and others, but within TRA-EX the methods are very widely published. Subscription/password sites such as N3 were readily subscribed to.

Even in 2012 solid fuel technology and AP itself is export controlled technology.

Jerry

[tbzep]

Nope. EX is a TRA invention to do prior "amateur rocketry" with a club flag.


Bla bla bla. Whatever. You just reworded what I already said. If I'm wrong, you are too. :rolleyes:

Same **** thing:

me: "we were already doing it long before it was called EX."

you: "to do prior "amateur rocketry" "

I don't need a history lesson. I was here long before HPR, was here at the infancy of EX, and I know my history of "amateur rocketry" well enough that I don't need to hear it from you.

.

[Jerry Irvine]

I don't need a history lesson. I was here long before HPR, was here at the infancy of EX, and I know my history of "amateur rocketry" well enough that I don't need to hear it from you. Great. Let's hear it sometime. I for one published a magazine with articles about some of the early USA Amateur rocketeers and led to the formation of what we now call HPR (was MRT). I always welcome stories from other geographies and groups. The earliest one I have seen was from 1933 in either Scotland or Sweden, I forget. I saw a book about it in the Upland City Library in the 80's.

I think Cal Poly Pomona and Cal State Univ Northridge have complete ARS magazine collections as well.

At Claremont Rocket Society which got considerable publicity in its day attracted a series of amateur rocketeers from all over the world to drift in our regularly operated HQ and seek out amateur rocket clubs to connect with. We referred folks from Argentina, Brazil, Mexico, Romania and others to RRS in LA, RRI in Sacremento and PRS in Cantil (all CA). Some of them are still active after all these decades.

The annual RRS christmas party is a thing to behold.

Jerry

[mojo1986]

Well you have every right to that thought. So let's see...last time B14 motors were available they were 3 for $2.25. So if Estes came out with them again at $12 for a pack of 3, according to your last statement, you wouldn't buy them.

No, that's not what GH said. Read it again.

EDIT...........looks like I'm in a little late on this one, but I like to take ol' GH's part when I think he's being unfairly treated. And just for the record, I LIKE most of his comments.............he's knowledgeable, colorful, and, generally, right on the money. Sure, he could tone it down a bit, but everyone has his own style, and that's his.

Joe

[tbzep]

Great. Let's hear it sometime. I for one published a magazine with articles about some of the early USA Amateur rocketeers and led to the formation of what we now call HPR (was MRT). I always welcome stories from other geographies and groups. The earliest one I have seen was from 1933 in either Scotland or Sweden, I forget. I saw a book about it in the Upland City Library in the 80's.

I think Cal Poly Pomona and Cal State Univ Northridge have complete ARS magazine collections as well.

At Claremont Rocket Society which got considerable publicity in its day attracted a series of amateur rocketeers from all over the world to drift in our regularly operated HQ and seek out amateur rocket clubs to connect with. We referred folks from Argentina, Brazil, Mexico, Romania and others to RRS in LA, RRI in Sacremento and PRS in Cantil (all CA). Some of them are still active after all these decades.

The annual RRS christmas party is a thing to behold.

Jerry
You're more than predictable. You posted your boasts of being at the spearhead of HPR and in the middle of amateur ad nauseum on r.m.r. and compuserve forums. I don't need to hear it again.

If you'd just thought for a minute before uttering the derogatory "nope", you would have probably realized that I knew you were referring to TRA sucking the already flourishing amateur rocketry scene into their program instead of "inventing" it. They needed a name other than "amateur", so they coined the name "Experimental", but they sure as heck didn't invent anything. Those reading this that were not around when TRA added EX should know that TRA invented nothing.

If you had left out the word "nope", that post would have said the same thing as mine, but with more detail and I would not have said another word. :rolleyes:


.

[Jerry Irvine]

Anytime we get closer to the truth we all win. It probably wouldn't hurt if fewer folks felt they could only prevail at the expense of others, but I digress and that is well addressed on rmr as you note.

I personally witnessed TRA use strong arm tactics to take over existing clubs and make them "Prefectures". Any good propaganda and insurgency campaign needs some special language and terms to differentiate it along the edges.

BTW TRA didn't coin the term experimental. They swiped it from California Rocketry magazine and is more properly attributable to several members of RRI. We used to say, "experimental rocketry just for kicks!" (link pp12-13) (http://v-serv.com/crp/CRm/10-82/CRm.10-82.htm) , to show there was a sport aspect as well as development and science aspects. The term can be found in an Ace Rockets ad . . .

Jerry

[tbzep]

Anytime we get closer to the truth we all win.
Agreed. :cool:

[tbzep]

BTW TRA didn't coin the term experimental. They swiped it from California Rocketry magazine and is more properly attributable to several members of RRI. We used to say, "experimental rocketry just for kicks!", to show there was a sport aspect as well as development and science aspects. The term can be found in an Ace Rockets ad . . .

Let's just say that TRA adopted the title and expanded its reach beyond California. ;)
I'm sure the term was used way before RRI. The Chinese probably had a word that would translate 800 years ago. :D

[5x7]

Let's just say that TRA adopted the title and expanded its reach beyond California. ;)
I'm sure the term was used way before RRI. The Chinese probably had a word that would translate 800 years ago. :D

轟

:)

[tbzep]

轟

:)
I had to find my "made in China" reading glasses to read it. :chuckle:

[Cohetero-negro]

Saw an announcement in a publication regarding the pricing of the new Estes Composite Engines.
Saw that the F was something lovely like $54.00 retail but included a $25 haz mat charge.

Are they for freakin' real ?
Even if that includes a $25 haz mat charge in the price, that is still $29.00 for an F engine !

Who do they plan to have pay these prices ?
Not even NASA as their budget has been cut enough to where they can't afford 'em either.

Most that know about and fly F power and above know about Aerotech SU, and also know about reloadables. Most that also do so know about the internet and order online to save mega buxx.

This sounds like another failed entry into mid-power for the big E to me.
I was hoping an association with Estes of these relabled Aerotech motors would result in LOWER prices due to their vast distribution network.

Whomever is setting these prices must have not one, but a dozen screws loose.

I know the ONLY way I will be purchasing any is if they hit the shelves at a Hobby Lobby for about $29 (with no haz mat included) and I can use a 40-50% off coupon. Otherwise, NO SALE !


GH, et al,

It really is cheaper to cast your own grains and fly experimental ;)

J

[blackshire]

GH, et al,

It really is cheaper to cast your own grains and fly experimental ;)

JI can see it now: "Candyman Rocketry," where all of the motors use the various sugar or sugar-related propellants--"you can even eat the forward closure..." (that's as good as any, as I can't think of a motor or motor-related component that rhymes with "dishes"). :-)