vintage FSI motors

[Green Dragon]

I was looking through some of the early catalogs on ninfinger tonight while watchign the Yankees choke, and found the following interesting

http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/catalogs/fsi67/67fsi12.html

from the 1967 FSI catalog.

of note ( other than the F engines being freight only, ala Coasters,etc ) is a few little details I picked up on .

1) if you note the B engines, it;s actually a ' C' according to the impulse numbers of 5.36 NS.

also note the C is a mid-C at only 7.81. ( and a D.915 at 10.02, really a 'hot C '... is this the forunner of the D18 ? ) .

2) of much interest is the F1.3 listed as having a 10 second burn time, not the 9 of the F7 steam machine, same motor ? or redesigned / loss of burn time for a larger initial spike ?

3) this is the one that really got me thinking / impressed me - note the propellent wieghts on these motors, and you realize that the ISP on the E and down engines is over 100, much higher than most BP engines, and actually higher than the 'bragged on' AVI Gold series 90 ISP, interesting indeed.

now where are these great motors when we need em :-(

~ AL

only has a couple FSI motors left, coming soon to a NAR launch near you :)

[Bazookadale]

I was looking through some of the early catalogs on ninfinger tonight while watchign the Yankees choke, and found the following interesting

http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/catalogs/fsi67/67fsi12.html

from the 1967 FSI catalog.

of note ( other than the F engines being freight only, ala Coasters,etc ) is a few little details I picked up on .

1) if you note the B engines, it;s actually a ' C' according to the impulse numbers of 5.36 NS.

)

The answer to that lies 2 pages later http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/catalogs/fsi67/67fsi16.html
This is when the NAR coding system went metric and B in the old system went to 1.2 lb-s - they show B in the "new system" as 6n-s don't know where they got that from, but it's a result of the change from english to metric

The old F1.3 was the forerunner of the F7 and the F18 became the mis-labeled F100

Dale Greene
SPAAR 503

[ghrocketman]

The old FSI engines were very optimistically rated for total n-sec from the entire life of their engines.
The old F100 actually tested out (when they and the E60 did not CATO) usually as a 100% E80 or 1% F80.
Most of their engines were nowhere near the actual advertised n-sec. I doubt the actual ISP was anywhere near 100 (especially if you were using their advertised numbers).
The old F7 was the closest to the actual advertised specs....it at least tested out as an F.

[stefanj]

and a D.915 at 10.02, really a 'hot C '... is this the forunner of the D18 ?

More likely the forerunner of the D4, one of the dwarf Ds the FSI made. (The other was the D6.)

The A-C and D4 and D6 were 21mm x 70 mm; the E5, D18, and later the D20 were 21mm x 95mm or so.

[dwmzmm]

I'm one of those Ted Cochran has given the green light to flight test several FSI OOP motors
for the latest NAR experiment. On December 23, 2006 I'll be test flying a F7-6 and (should
the model return ok) an E60-4; both flight attempts will be made using the FSI OSO kit. I'll
also be flight testing several Centuri labeled B14-5's that day...

[Royatl]

The F100s Trip Barber tested in '72-73 came out to 38.2 ns, and only 48 newtons avg thrust. A max thrust of 93.7. The F7s were 38.7ns and 5.4 avg. The E5s, get this, were only 11.3ns!! and 2.3n avg.
Lower than the Cox D8 which was 11.9ns and 7 newtons avg.

[ghrocketman]

The old FSI motors sure were short on performance AND reliability....the only thing they were long on was a whole lotta CARDBOARD.
It's a shame that these junkers actually outlasted the earlier much higher performing Enerjet E24, F52, and F67 motors. Those were REAL E and F motors that performed as advertised !

[dwmzmm]

The old FSI motors sure were short on performance AND reliability....the only thing they were long on was a whole lotta CARDBOARD.
It's a shame that these junkers actually outlasted the earlier much higher performing Enerjet E24, F52, and F67 motors. Those were REAL E and F motors that performed as advertised !

What's your take on the Composite Dynamics ProJet E and F motors? I still have quite a few
unused composite motors, too (production date is September 1982).

[Royatl]

What's your take on the Composite Dynamics ProJet E and F motors? I still have quite a few
unused composite motors, too (production date is September 1982).

I always liked 'em. I had an old Estes Saturn V that I put Centuri wraps on, took off the SM/LM shroud and added the tubes and nose for a Maxi Alpha III, added big trapesoid fins and painted it solid yellow. Called it the Mighty Favog (bonus points if you know the reference). Flew it four or five times on F45s. On the last flight it caught some wind during the really slow liftoff and it headed toward Married Housing on the University of GA campus (we flew from the intramural fields) and various and sundry munchkins made away with it. Usually we only lost small rockets that way. Big rockets were usually confiscated by the kids' parental unit and we would do a door-to-door search to get them back. Unfortunately some parent must've liked the idea of having a five foot tall yellow rocket in their tiny Married Housing apartment cause I didn't get it back.


I've got a E20-10 and a F45-8 in front of me (dated 3-80). I have two or three others in the stash.

[Bazookadale]

The old FSI motors sure were short on performance AND reliability....the only thing they were long on was a whole lotta CARDBOARD.
!

I have a little story to tell here. A long time ago I was a salesman for Sears (thank god that's over) One of the duties a salesman has is changing the tape on the cash register when it runs out - there were two types, 2.75" and 3.75" The first time I changed one I looked at the paper core I had removed and was convinced it was a FSI motor casing! I took it home dug out an old FSI motor - and the tubes were identical, convolutely wound same length, ID and OD, same color kraft paper. I always wondered why they stayed with the oddball size, I guess it was because the could buy an off the shelf tube cheaper than getting an 18mm made special order.

Dale Greene
SPAAR 503

[Green Dragon]

I always liked 'em. I had an old Estes Saturn V that I put Centuri wraps on, took off the SM/LM shroud and added the tubes and nose for a Maxi Alpha III, added big trapesoid fins and painted it solid yellow. Called it the Mighty Favog (bonus points if you know the reference). Flew it four or five times on F45s. On the last flight it caught some wind during the really slow liftoff and it headed toward Married Housing on the University of GA campus (we flew from the intramural fields) and various and sundry munchkins made away with it. Usually we only lost small rockets that way. Big rockets were usually confiscated by the kids' parental unit and we would do a door-to-door search to get them back. Unfortunately some parent must've liked the idea of having a five foot tall yellow rocket in their tiny Married Housing apartment cause I didn't get it back.


I've got a E20-10 and a F45-8 in front of me (dated 3-80). I have two or three others in the stash.


hmm.. the sacrilege's we used to do .. wish you had that Saturn ( or the Centuri wraps,anyways) now , I bet ... :(
Bummer about the loss - my bro lost one 6-7 years back when it drifted from the park into a ball field next dor and some kids ran off with the AAA ? Sentry, and 29/40-120 reload case ... we offered some other kids a reward, but they wouldn't snitch on whoever grabbed it.... :-(

~ AL ( wish I had some E20 or F40 to fly, although could go make up some, lol - I do have one last pro-Jet G62 someplace. )

ps: re the Frank Oz Muppets reference, what do I win ? :)

[ghrocketman]

I have several Composite Dynamics Pro-Jet E20 motors from the early 80's.
Those were VERY similar to the original Enerjets (albeit in 24mm guise)....high-performance full n-sec low-smoke motors.
I flew 2 E20-7's earlier this year in a Maxi-Alpha and they still worked fine (the delay trains worked).
In short, I like the old pro-jets....when they existed they were the only widely available composites in my area. They were extremely easy to ignite too....I always used to use an Estes solar igniter shoved all the way up to the top of the propellant grain with very short (1/4") leads sticking of the nozzle...worked every time....in my ignorance I did not know there were "special" composite igniters.

When were thre pro-jet G62's made ? Late 80's/early 90's ? Never heard of that one...I was out of rocketry from about 1987 to 1997.

[Green Dragon]

When were thre pro-jet G62's made ? Late 80's/early 90's ? Never heard of that one...I was out of rocketry from about 1987 to 1997.

G62's were made circa 1981, I believe, as CD (Pro-Jet) was out of business by 1982-83.

G62 was, to the best of my knowledge, never in the catalog, and not as widely available as the SSRS / Crown G motors .

~ AL

[CaninoBD]

I have a little story to tell here. A long time ago I was a salesman for Sears (thank god that's over) One of the duties a salesman has is changing the tape on the cash register when it runs out - there were two types, 2.75" and 3.75" The first time I changed one I looked at the paper core I had removed and was convinced it was a FSI motor casing! I took it home dug out an old FSI motor - and the tubes were identical, convolutely wound same length, ID and OD, same color kraft paper. I always wondered why they stayed with the oddball size, I guess it was because the could buy an off the shelf tube cheaper than getting an 18mm made special order.

Dale Greene
SPAAR 503


There is a article in the July 1971 Model Rocketry from G. Harry about the motor sizes. The original Carlisle “Rock-A-Chute” was 12.7 mm by 57 mm. When they had the motors made by Brown Manufacturing, he total them he could make them quicker if they didn’t use their special-size paper and use a tube they already had handy for their Zenith Buzz Bomb firework. That tube was 18mm by 70 mm. Later when Vern made them he stay with that size to be compatible. He mention some Europe manufactures using 21mm tubes too, but later switched to18mm. FSI was the one hold out. I guess 21mm tubes were a stander for something and easier to get.

While talking to Doug Pratt at the last ECRM, he pulled a old box of motors from his Van. In the box was some FSI 18mm motors. He said FSI did try to make 18mm motor, but when they pressed them, they all got bulges in the middle of the motor. They never figured out how to press them with the budge, so they never sold tem.

Bruce Canino

[Royatl]

While talking to Doug Pratt at the last ECRM, he pulled a old box of motors from his Van. In the box was some FSI 18mm motors. He said FSI did try to make 18mm motor, but when they pressed them, they all got bulges in the middle of the motor. They never figured out how to press them with the budge, so they never sold tem.

Bruce Canino


They did sell 18mm motors, probably well after Doug left the company. One of our local hobby shops sold them along with the bigger FSI motors. FSI somehow got ahold of MRI/MRC/AVI's motor machines, and made 18mm motors with them for a few years in the late 80's. Quest ended up using them (FSI may have actually made the first batch of Quest motors).

[stefanj]

In the early 80s, but probably before Lonnie Reese died, FSI advertised 18mm motors with dual thrust spikes!

They were called "Pulsators" or something like that.

These were probably vaporware.

[Ltvscout]

In the early 80s, but probably before Lonnie Reese died, FSI advertised 18mm motors with dual thrust spikes!

They were called "Pulsators" or something like that.

These were probably vaporware.
You could get the same effect with F7's bouncing up and down the rod. ;)

[ghrocketman]

I second that about the F7's

[CaninoBD]

They did sell 18mm motors, probably well after Doug left the company. One of our local hobby shops sold them along with the bigger FSI motors. FSI somehow got ahold of MRI/MRC/AVI's motor machines, and made 18mm motors with them for a few years in the late 80's. Quest ended up using them (FSI may have actually made the first batch of Quest motors).

I never saw on of them. How did they compare with Estes motors of the time?

I know a lot of people complained about FSI motors, but I liked them. The F100 was way cool, and none of mine cato. The F7 and E6 were cool too, but you had to fly them in real light models. I flew some of the D18's, but not as many as the larger FSI motors.

[Green Dragon]

I never saw on of them. How did they compare with Estes motors of the time?

I know a lot of people complained about FSI motors, but I liked them. The F100 was way cool, and none of mine cato. The F7 and E6 were cool too, but you had to fly them in real light models. I flew some of the D18's, but not as many as the larger FSI motors.

We did have a few of the FSI 18mm motors, B and C, and they worked excelent.

I still have a couple fired casings someplace, but sold the unburned ones some time back.

Pretty rare stuff, I imagine.

I do have ( will have to hunt it up and scan for Scott :) , a notice that was sent with FSI kits of that era, mentioneing the 18mm change and either availabel , or included - don't recall until I find the notice - motor adapters.

I also have a letter ( might have scanned ,posted here before ?, but did a search and did nto find it ) .. circa 1984-85, iirc - appears hand typed, and definately hand signed by Harold Reese , regarding the composite engines available, so some were apparently released.

~ AL

goes to hunt through more paperwork, lol...

[SEL]

We did have a few of the FSI 18mm motors, B and C, and they worked excelent.

I still have a couple fired casings someplace, but sold the unburned ones some time back.

Pretty rare stuff, I imagine.

Ahhh, yes - I bought a FSI C6-7 from you a year or so ago (maybe 2). It is a bit 'bulgier' than an Estes motor, but still fits in a BT20 tube with a little coaxing.

Sean

[Ltvscout]

Ahhh, yes - I bought a FSI C6-7 from you a year or so ago (maybe 2). It is a bit 'bulgier' than an Estes motor, but still fits in a BT20 tube with a little coaxing.
Another reason I liked Centuri better. Their ST-7 had more clearance for fitting the motors in. Their tubes were beefier as well.

[Chas Russell]

I was able to purchase a couple paks of 18mm FSI motors from an auction a few years back. They are still in package and I have not flown one. They are in my collection with the old 21mm and 27 mm motors

Going back to a previous comment about FSI "Pulsators", my first NARAM was NARAM-11 in 1969 at the Air Force Academy. FSI demo launched a five pulse motor in their 21mm E5 casing. The motor had a bit of delay charge in between each propellant grain. It was neat, but never went into production. More special effect than useful. Don't recall the delay. Flew my first F100 in F Eggloft. Great flight but broke the shock cord.

Chas

[stefanj]

I have one unopened pack of FSI B8-6 (?) motors left.

Also, two rather beat up motor boxes for the FSI 21mm x 70mm motors. They have really hokey artwork showing a rocket zooming through the clouds. I'll scan them in someday.

[Ltvscout]

I have one unopened pack of FSI B8-6 (?) motors left.

Also, two rather beat up motor boxes for the FSI 21mm x 70mm motors. They have really hokey artwork showing a rocket zooming through the clouds. I'll scan them in someday.
Chas and Stefan. Are your 18mm motors in a red box?

[Chas Russell]

My FSI 18mm motors are in plastic bags with header cards. Only two paks, so a small sample. I seem to recall that there were some in boxes.

I wish I had kept some of my 21mm motors in the boxes instead of removing them to put in motor boxes or ammo boxes (where I keep all of my collectables and bulk motors).

Chas

[Ltvscout]

My FSI 18mm motors are in plastic bags with header cards. Only two paks, so a small sample. I seem to recall that there were some in boxes.

I wish I had kept some of my 21mm motors in the boxes instead of removing them to put in motor boxes or ammo boxes (where I keep all of my collectables and bulk motors).

I have some old FSI motors in a red box from the early 70's. I just can't remember if they're 18mm or 21mm. I used to have them sitting on my computer desk here, but they must've gotten moved. If I dig them up I'll post a full report on size, impulse and date here.

[Chas Russell]

Scott,

If you box of FSI motors is from the '70s, then they are the 21mm type. Should be a red and white box. Stephan mentioned that he has one and will scan it.

When the 21mm FSI motors came out in the late '60s, G Harry gushed over them in an article in American Modeling (might still have the article). He praised them as superior. My understanding was that he used them in a CT contest, even though they were not available to the general hobby.
Based on what we knew then I was trying to fly C and D eggloft with the 21mm motors. This was pre-CMR eggc apsules and using BT-60 sized eggs. Broke ten straight on FSI motors. Fly adn Die with FSI . LOL.

Hope you find your missing box of FSI motors.

Chas

[Ltvscout]

If you box of FSI motors is from the '70s, then they are the 21mm type. Should be a red and white box. Stephan mentioned that he has one and will scan it.

When the 21mm FSI motors came out in the late '60s, G Harry gushed over them in an article in American Modeling (might still have the article). He praised them as superior. My understanding was that he used them in a CT contest, even though they were not available to the general hobby.
Based on what we knew then I was trying to fly C and D eggloft with the 21mm motors. This was pre-CMR eggc apsules and using BT-60 sized eggs. Broke ten straight on FSI motors. Fly adn Die with FSI . LOL.
Thanks for the info. I had it up on my computer hutch along with a box of Citation motors and an old box of MRI motors.
Hope you find your missing box of FSI motors.
They're down here, somewhere in this mess. :eek:

[Green Dragon]

The 18mm FSI motors I had, mid 80's, iirc. - had paper header tags and plastic bags , same packaging as F100,etc.

I think I still have the headers someplace, will have to look for those.

~ AL

[Initiator001]

In 1990-91, I ordered several packs of the FSI 18mm motors directly from the company.

I flew them in a variety of different models and did not have any problems with them.

I had some of them tested on the AeroTech thrust stand by Dan Meyer.

As I recall, the A6 motors were closer to the full n-sec impulse allowed than Estes A8s.

The FSI B6 and C6 motors were the same or a little lower performance than the equivalent Estes motors.

I still have eight sealed packs in my collection: A6-3 (2), A6-5, B6-0, B6-5, C6-0, C6-3 & C6-5.

Bob