New launch location at Bong

[MadHatter]

Our usual location is no longer allowed.

The dog and hunt clubs have more pull in this government (they also carry guns).

We are now moved to the area east of access road "F" on the runway next to the ponds.

Presently there are no improvements to our new launch location, the plans for the improvements are in the hands of the DNR.

So we are going to have to make the best if it....

[Jerry Irvine]

So, let me get this straight. They changed the location but not the name?

Just Jerry

[chadrog]

So, let me get this straight. They changed the location but not the name?

Just Jerry
Same state park, different area of it. Not a good thing for us.

[Rex R]

guess we'll need to make some floating launch pads...otoh it is harder to set a pond on fire :).
rex

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Sounds like you're getting the same treatment that we got at VOA a few years back. :(

[chadrog]

Sounds like you're getting the same treatment that we got at VOA a few years back. :(
Issues with those who feel they are more entitled than you? These people are brutal, and won't be satisfied until they've chased us out entirely. The worst part is that they have allies in high places - us not so much.

[Kevin Huddleston]

Perhaps I'm missing something... Why would we be the bad guys?

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Perhaps I'm missing something... Why would we be the bad guys?
Because we're noisy and scare puppies and soccer players.

[chadrog]

Because we're noisy and scare puppies and soccer players.
And horsy's - the horsy people don't like us either...

[Kevin Huddleston]

Meh. We could complain that some of our members have a phobia of horses, puppies and soccer players... level the playing field a tad. :cool:

[kapton]

WOOSH and TWA have been responsible users of the area. I think a lot has to do with who you know.

Would be interesting to see a compilation of which groups bring in how much money to the park's coffers.

[Rex R]

and the answer to that is very little, all fees etc. go to the DNR who then dole out money to the parks. and since the hunters get charged for getting permission to use their dogs for hunting and then buying a hunting liesnce plus tax on hunting supplies...
rex

[chadrog]

Meh. We could complain that some of our members have a phobia of horses, puppies and soccer players... level the playing field a tad. :cool:
I'd guess their response to that would be "seek treatment".

[Kevin Huddleston]

I'd guess their response to that would be "seek treatment".


To which I would respond: "We did, and flying rockets is precisely what the shrink ordered we do for therapy!" :chuckle:

[chadrog]

All kidding aside, we just have to do our best to make due with the situation. We must continue to use the park very responsibly and stay on good terms with the park staff - remaining vigilant is a must! Everyone who flies there (and wants to continue to) needs to help promote our mission and help grow the organizations. There is security in numbers - the bigger we are, the less chance there is of getting nudged out entirely. Finding a political alie or two certainly would help, anyone know of anyone in the Wisconsin house or senate to back us up? In the meantime, we must roll with the change. The park likes us, it's the other users with the issues - we need to keep it that way.

[evil ed]

Chad has a very good point.

1) By being the best possible guests and stewards of the park, the club increases its value to the park.

2) Strive to leave the flying field in better shape than when y'all got there.

3) Co-ordinate a "Make it, launch it, take it " with a park event.

4) Vendors and Out of Towners- Send a letter to the Parks Dept. thanking "them" for "hosting" the event, and complement them on how nice their launch facility is- I know, they didn't do the work, but they will be happy to take the credit.

5) Remember the 27 Samurai - Lick gall and sleep on firewood now, avenge later.

6) Be diplomatic ! - Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to "go to Hades" in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ;)

Evil Ed

[Ltvscout]

All kidding aside, we just have to do our best to make due with the situation. We must continue to use the park very responsibly and stay on good terms with the park staff - remaining vigilant is a must! Everyone who flies there (and wants to continue to) needs to help promote our mission and help grow the organizations. There is security in numbers - the bigger we are, the less chance there is of getting nudged out entirely. Finding a political alie or two certainly would help, anyone know of anyone in the Wisconsin house or senate to back us up? In the meantime, we must roll with the change. The park likes us, it's the other users with the issues - we need to keep it that way.
I could've sworn the club got Sensenbrenner involved back when the ATF was trying to shutdown high power.

I suggested the club get a lawyer for these park meetings a number of years ago. It was always poo-poo'ed. Now look where you are.

Scott

[chadrog]

I could've sworn the club got Sensenbrenner involved back when the ATF was trying to shutdown high power.

I suggested the club get a lawyer for these park meetings a number of years ago. It was always poo-poo'ed. Now look where you are.

Scott

I don't know about Sensenbrenner, I wasn't back into the fold then. If he was an influence then, it wouldn't hurt to contact him now.

What benefit would a lawyer bring to the table in a matter like this? Are there laws being broken? I'm confused on that front.

[evil ed]

I could've sworn the club got Sensenbrenner involved back when the ATF was trying to shutdown high power.

I suggested the club get a lawyer for these park meetings a number of years ago. It was always poo-poo'ed. Now look where you are.

Scott

Is anyone IN THE CLUB a lawyer?
My wife use to be one, and still knows all of the ins and outs of the legal system. She's much happier being a secretary/receptionist for her parent's business, but stays "active" by assisting a local Attorney as a "paralegal" from time to time.

Having a Lawyer in the club would be a sweet way to go. :D

[jeff2space]

The biggest thing I don't understand is Mark and a rep from TWA met with the DNR and came up with a 2013 schedule for the Class 1 area, and then a month or so later they say we can't use it?

Can't the dog training be done in any other area of the park instead of relocating the rocketry from its already established location?

[Ltvscout]

I don't know about Sensenbrenner, I wasn't back into the fold then. If he was an influence then, it wouldn't hurt to contact him now.

What benefit would a lawyer bring to the table in a matter like this? Are there laws being broken? I'm confused on that front.
The park is open to the public. One or more group can't have exclusive access to areas of the park. A lawyer would've been able to argue that for the club and threaten a lawsuit if necessary. It would've been best of course if there was a lawyer in the club or a good friend of a club member for cost purposes.

I'm afraid it's too late for any of that now. The dog/horse/hunter people won that battle with better representation.

The club hierarchy thought it best to be nice to try to get our way at these meetings. We don't live in a nice world. Now we got the shaft.

Scott

[Kevin Huddleston]

The club hierarchy thought it best to be nice to try to get our way at these meetings. We don't live in a nice world. Now we got the shaft.

Scott

I like to jest, but obviously this is a fairly sore topic. I don't have the history of club membership that you all do; thus, my opinion on the matter is little more than a hunch. That said, trying the "nice" route is not always the worst way to go, and oftentimes the best. Approaching the matter with a show of legal power and implicit (or explicit) threats of lawsuits may well have backfired. After all, once you poison the waters, those you affronted will always be looking for ways to defeat you...and eventually find a "legal" way to do it. Though approaching this respectfully did not change the present result, approaching it in a threatening posture might have ended worse. Just my thoughts.

[scsager]

As both Mark and Chad stated, we will have to make the best of it. Perhaps Mark has a bit more details he can share. Looking at the runway East of access road F with Google Earth... Perhaps hip waders would be a wise investment. :(

[chadrog]

There has been talk of a boat.

[ECayemberg]

-"Nice": The "dog people" have never played nice...ever.

-I agree that it's absolute bull that they now have exclusive rights to areas of a public multi-purpose use facilities; after all rocketry was included in the stated uses of the area right from the start. TWA has been flying there since 1996.

-This is not the first time that an agreement was made between the ranger, rocketeers, and dog people that was revoked or changed without explanation shortly thereafter.

-It is true that one of the higher-ups that has say in the use of Bong Rec. Area is a "dog person".

New site Exploration
-On the brighter side, moving East gets us away from the giant ponds and that woods that eats a lot of rockets North of the typical Lot F runway site. In my 15 years of going to Bong, I explored the area East of Lot F on the runway for the very first time this weekend. I'll admit it wasn't intentional, apparently nylon shear pins get brittle in 0 degree temps, which led to a main shaken out at 5,000' and a landing in the SE corner of the park. My observation is that the runway East of lot F is every bit as good as the area to the West of F. There are indeed several low areas that may accumulate water; but admittedly, I'd trade sporadic micro ponds for the big ones North of the old site.

Drifting:
-If the wind is out of the South or South-West, we have significantly more non-hazardous recovery area than at the old site.
-If the winds are West or West-Southwest, you have the length of the runway, but Wolf Lake becomes more of a concern than the past.
-North winds: ugh, same limited recovery area as the old location. TREES!
-East: on the fairly rare occasion that we have East winds, this should work well; though a failure to deploy the laundry could put a rocket in the Wolf Lake area, which could be bad.

I have mixed emotions; I very much do not like the dog people pushing us around, and this is nothing new. On the other hand, Bong has always presented challenges for anything but modest flights; I don't think the new location changes that much. Regardless, I am truly thankful for Mark, Frank, Bob, and others who continue to do their best to secure and preserve rocketry activities at the Bong.

-Eric-

[MadHatter]

The park is open to the public. One or more group can't have exclusive access to areas of the park. A lawyer would've been able to argue that for the club and threaten a lawsuit if necessary. It would've been best of course if there was a lawyer in the club or a good friend of a club member for cost purposes.

I'm afraid it's too late for any of that now. The dog/horse/hunter people won that battle with better representation.

The club hierarchy thought it best to be nice to try to get our way at these meetings. We don't live in a nice world. Now we got the shaft.

Scott


Scott,

The Master Plan for Richard Bong Recreation area was established back around 1974, in the master plan model rocketry was mentioned as an activity that the park would consider for evaluation for the Special use zone (the runway). One of the preferred activity's that was listed was dog training and field trials, as this was an established activity long before WOOSH or TWA or what ever was established. In fact it mentioned that the area was used by the American Kennel association for field trials in the 1960's. It is clear that you have not read this document let alone know where to find it so you can read it.

We are not evicted from the park it's a big place we are moved to a location out of the State licensed Class 1 field training grounds.

I don't know where you were when I held meetings with posted agendas regarding this topic, this was all done last year, It sure was quiet from you.

During those meetings I pointed that we needed help from members, I called our local state reps, SLI and UW Wisconsin and discussed this in much detail and we were open for suggestions So where were you?

In fact if I did not pursue the agencies that I did I'm sure we would have been evicted, so where were you?

But now that its all said and done why do we have to listen to your "I told you so attitude".

The Prez.
Mark Hackler
WOOSH NAR 558

[MadHatter]

Chad has a very good point.

1) By being the best possible guests and stewards of the park, the club increases its value to the park.

2) Strive to leave the flying field in better shape than when y'all got there.

3) Co-ordinate a "Make it, launch it, take it " with a park event.

4) Vendors and Out of Towners- Send a letter to the Parks Dept. thanking "them" for "hosting" the event, and complement them on how nice their launch facility is- I know, they didn't do the work, but they will be happy to take the credit.

5) Remember the 27 Samurai - Lick gall and sleep on firewood now, avenge later.

6) Be diplomatic ! - Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to "go to Hades" in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ;)

Evil Ed

This is great stuff! I fully agree and support this approach.

Be this a wake-up call, In these times being a dedicated hobbyist requires more than building knowledge and such. In order for this hobby to survive we must become politically active, to me this is a sore spot as I despise dealing with lawyers and politicians I just wanna fly rockets.

After all who has time to deal with the politicians, well I can answer that, all of us...

Because after all of our launch fields have been taken away from us by other special interest groups because they are better connected politically.

We wont have anything else to do.

Mark