Origin of the Classic Model Rocket Tube

[Royatl]

Ok, so this has been bugging me. But not enough to get me to write Vern or one of the tube companies, or the paper company I used to work for. So you historians get to do this if I can get you interested.
----------------------------

The classic model rocket airframe tube is a thin walled, natural colored kraft paper tube, covered by a wrap of glassine.

Why?

Were these types of tubes being used for some other products back in the late 50's/early 60's? Or were they specified by Estes/MMI/someone else? I've never really seen them associated with any other product.

Shipping tubes were cheaply made, thick-walled, low grade kraft paper, or paper made from cheaper pulp.

Toilet paper and paper towel rolls were even more cheaply made, though some started to be made with bleached white paper in the 60's (same material as the tougher album covers of the day)

Tampon applicators were thicker walled tubes, but IIRC they had smooth outsides that must've been glassine, and the quality of the main paper wraps was low. Same for the tubes that went on pants hangers (in fact those seemed to be coated with a light tack adhesive).

The only thing I can think of is that they were used in large capacitor manufacturing, or maybe some specialized gift packaging.


How bout it? Anyone want to go sleuthing? Or just add to the speculation?

[stefanj]

Early Estes tubes -- specifically, the BT-30 and BT-40 -- were parallel wound. I've only seen the former. Pale tan, a bit thicker and tougher than a BT-20, with a seam.

I've also heard that the BT-40 & parts were stock inherited from MMI.

The BT-20 and BT-60 showed up fairly early on, but we can't know for sure what they were like back then.

This is a question that the Estes or Leroy Piester could answer.

[Royatl]

Early Estes tubes -- specifically, the BT-30 and BT-40 -- were parallel wound. I've only seen the former. Pale tan, a bit thicker and tougher than a BT-20, with a seam.

I've also heard that the BT-40 & parts were stock inherited from MMI.

The BT-20 and BT-60 showed up fairly early on, but we can't know for sure what they were like back then.

This is a question that the Estes or Leroy Piester could answer.

yep, the MMI tubes (which were eventually the Estes BT-40) were parallel wound, as was the BT-30 (I've heard Gleda initially used a little hand-cranked machine to make them)

At NARAM 47, I got an ADAST Astra (Czech) rocket at the auction. It's tube is parallel, a little mal-formed (though that could be from age... made in 1966), looks like thin manilla that was glued with a light shellac.

Yea, guess I'll go ahead and e-mail Vern.

[shockwaveriderz]

I don't know if this helsp any, but if i remember correctly the parallel wound early body tubes had no glassine cover. It wasn't until estes switched over to the spiral wound that gllasine was added? why? I don't know. I don't think glassine covered kraft paper tubes was a stock item? I mean, you had to specifiy glassine to be added to the tube? I may be very well wrong on this. If you tried to order parallel kraft paper tubes today with a glassine covering, I don't think thats an option.

And roy..speaking of your czech Astra....when are you going to get around to scaning everything and posting it?


oh by the way Tim Van Milligan has a History of the body tube essay up on his website although it has some historical inaccuracies.... He states that it was Bill Simon who started the whole Estes BT-xx naming nomenclature in 1962 (which is when Bill Simon, then 19 went to work for estes), but if you look at the body tube designmations in the prior estes 60/61 catalogs, you will see they were already using the bt-xx terminology.

http://www.apogeerockets.com/education/newsletter09.asp

I suppose you could also email euclid paper tubes? or is it paramount paper tubes?


terry dean
nar 16158

[tbzep]

My speculation would be that spiral wound paper showed up when they contracted with Euclid Paper Tubing Company.

[shockwaveriderz]

from the euclid paper tube company website:


The Euclid Spiral Paper Tube Corp. has been in business since 1956 producing insulators for the electrical industry. These include the flexible insulator for the oil filled transformers, shaft huggers tubes for small motor insulation, small battery cases, shim gauges for the audio speaker industry, and tubes for the model rocket market. We supplied the flexible insulation for the oil filled transformers built around the world. Most of the early capacitor market for the electronic circuit board was insulated by Euclid Spirial Paper Tube Corp.

Interesting that this company started just prior to model rocketry in 1957.

It would be an interesting story if vern would comment on how he came to choose this company over others.

terry dean
nar 16158

[Tweener]

Tampon applicators were thicker walled tubes, but IIRC they had smooth outsides that must've been glassine, and the quality of the main paper wraps was low.Umm... Since no one else seems willing to ask (even though I know they're all as curious as I) - how the heck do you know so much about that!?? :eek: :o :confused:

[sandman]

OK...way too much information! :eek:

[mperdue]

He states that it was Bill Simon who started the whole Estes BT-xx naming nomenclature in 1962 (which is when Bill Simon, then 19 went to work for estes), but if you look at the body tube designmations in the prior estes 60/61 catalogs, you will see they were already using the bt-xx terminology.
I think what Bill Simon actually came up with the numerical designation for the body tube size. IIRC, prior to 1963 a BT-30 was a BT-3, from the 1963 catalog on they used the numbers we all got used to, BT-20, BT-50, etc. I have no idea what inspired the numbers he chose...

Mario

[Bazookadale]

I


oh by the way Tim Van Milligan has a History of the body tube essay up on his website although it has some historical inaccuracies.... He states that it was Bill Simon who started the whole Estes BT-xx naming nomenclature in 1962 (which is when Bill Simon, then 19 went to work for estes), but if you look at the body tube designmations in the prior estes 60/61 catalogs, you will see they were already using the bt-xx terminology.



In the '61 catalog they are called BT-1, BT-2, BT-3 - MAYBE- Simon is the one who changed this to BT-10,20 and 30, the one to ask is Vern, he and Gleda come to Naram and I think all of the TARCs . There is at least one other inaccuracy on Tim's site - he states that Orville Carlise established 18mm as the standard motor size , no that was Ed Brown of Brown manufacturing who used that size tube for fireworks. Carlisle's motors were 1/2 inch diameter. Sorry Tim but that come straight from the late G.Harry Stine.

Dale Greene

[shockwaveriderz]

actually that was Lawrence and Herbert Brown , father and son...Ed Brown didn't start working for Estes t till approx 1966... I don't think Ed Brown is in any way related to the other Brown's...

terry dean
nar 16158

[Bazookadale]

actually that was Lawrence and Herbert Brown , father and son...Ed Brown didn't start working for Estes t till approx 1966... I don't think Ed Brown is in any way related to the other Brown's...

terry dean
nar 16158

Yeah you're right - my correction was incorrect! :(

[Carl@Semroc]

I have to hit the enter button sooner than 9 hours later!

[Royatl]

Umm... Since no one else seems willing to ask (even though I know they're all as curious as I) - how the heck do you know so much about that!?? :eek: :o :confused:

Didn't your parents ever make you take out the trash? and didn't the bags occasionally break or tear, and you had to pick everything back up? :p And didn't you find "interesting" things in there that you had to ask questions about? Fortunately, my parents were not the "you don't need to know about that" type! (well, my mom was a little, but my dad thought I should know everything so I'd never be squeamish!)

[Tweener]

...my dad thought I should know everything so I'd never be squeamish!Probably not a bad idea. There are certain things I just flat out refuse to pick up for my wife on the way home from work. :D I always ask her "Please make sure you have what you need before you need it." ;)

[ghrocketman]

Probably not a bad idea. There are certain things I just flat out refuse to pick up for my wife on the way home from work. I always ask her "Please make sure you have what you need before you need it."

Regarding the last post, I EMPHATICALLY hear that and live by it also !
There are just some things I'm NOT a buyin' for my wife !

[barone]

Regarding the last post, I EMPHATICALLY hear that and live by it also !
There are just some things I'm NOT a buyin' for my wife !


My answer to that was a hysterectomy :confused: ..... :rolleyes:

[ghrocketman]

And just how did that answer fly with your wife ?
Probably flew about as well as a LEAD BALLOON, right ?

[barone]

And just how did that answer fly with your wife ?
Probably flew about as well as a LEAD BALLOON, right ?

Actually, she took it well. She think's it's the best thing she ever did (besides marrying me of course ;) ). Of course, you can't ask her when she's having a hot flash...... :D

[mperdue]

Wow, this thread sure has taken a sharp turn...

[Tweener]

Wow, this thread sure has taken a sharp turn...I believe that's my fault. Sorry. :o

[Doug Sams]

Wow, this thread sure has taken a sharp turn...So let's get it back on track.

The current kraft paper tube with glassine finish is a thing of engineering beauty. It's light, strong and perfect for our applications. I've seen folks use lots of alternative tubes and the results are seldom anywhere near as effective as just buying the right tube.

Wrapping paper cores and paper towel cores are pretty awful. Saran wrap cores are strong, but take lots and lots of filling/sanding to get a good finish, and even then, they don't seem to hold fins very well, at least not without glassing the roots.

For larger rockets, I've used paper roll cores made with a lower quality kraft paper, but they turned out surprisingly weak (w.r.t zippering) and still needed lots of filling/sanding to get a good finish. Furthermore, they're heavy compared to LOC tubes for example, and pretty much need to be glassed to be trustworthy.

Mailing tubes are pretty much the same - tough to finish and heavy for their strength. IOW, need to be glassed.

Carpet roll cores are awful, too. Heavy and zipper prone, and still need glassing. It's like flying a steel pipe :eek:

It's a good rocketeer learning exercise to do a Saran tube, a paper roll core and/or a mailing tube rocket - once or twice, but in general it's a heckuva lot more cost-effective to just buy the right tube to start with.

Let's all give a toast to the folks who perfected our kraft paper rocket tubes. :cheers:

http://home.flash.net/~samily/stuff/cheers3.gif

Doug

[SEL]

So let's get it back on track.

<snip>

It's a good rocketeer learning exercise to do a Saran tube, a paper roll core and/or a mailing tube rocket - once or twice, but in general it's a heckuva lot more cost-effective to just buy the right tube to start with.

Let's all give a toast to the folks who perfected our kraft paper rocket tubes. :cheers:

http://home.flash.net/~samily/stuff/cheers3.gif

Doug

I'll second that.

Sean "Heck, I might even third that" Lannan

[Rocketking]

But I refuse to drink something that looks like it came out the other end already...

G. :cool:

[PaulK]

I'll second that.Mmm, Boddingtons. Last time I had that was in a little pub in the gun quarter of Birmingham.