Generic E2X Bulk Kit Changes

[tbzep]

It's been a couple of years since we've bought new Generic E2X kits for our school. The previous kits were horrible, with several major issues, most of which have been remedied with the new kits. I'm sure most of you have seen the changes already, but just in case you haven't, I'll fill you in.

The old kits had those horrendous extremely thin and weak blue motor tubes. The non-coated tubes coupled with damp grass and young newbie hands usually resulted in ruined motor mounts. During assembly when kids lock the fin can into place with the thick green ring, they often got the thing stuck on the blue tube before it slid all the way down. They ended up crimping the snot out of the cruddy blue tube. Even if they got it right, the blue tubes tore up quickly with no engine block (see next issue). The new kits have standard white glassine coated BT-20 motor tubes. In addition to withstanding more stress during handling and flight, they should make assembly a little easier for the kids.


The old kits came without engine blocks. This omission coupled with blue motor tubes allowed the hooks to be shoved forward during thrust and landing, tearing the motor tubes. After a few flights, the kids would come to me with the motor shoved flush with the fin can. I resorted to cutting up old motors to make blocks to help prevent the problem on new builds. The new kits have blocks included. :)

These two changes have been my biggest beef with the E2X bulk kits. When Estes had the short lived forum, I begged for these two changes and I've mentioned it here also. Thanks Estes for making the changes and allowing kids to be able to get more than a couple of flights in before the motor mounts start tearing up! :cool:

The plain white chutes are gone. The new kits have orange and white checkerboard chutes. Most of you have seen them by now, but this is the first ones I've seen. Most of my stash of unbuilt or recently built Estes kits have been in the que for a while and still have plain chutes. These are pre-assembled with several things printed on them in some of the larger white blocks. The most prominent printing looks like the the date of manufacture, 05/30/12. The part number is also printed in another block. The copyright info and manufacturing location (Guangdong, China) is printed in four languages in four other blocks, which looks terrible to me, but won't be noticed at a distance.

I still have a couple of issues with the kits. First is the way the fin can attaches. I have no trouble with it when I build them due to my experience and minor tweaking of the construction. However, when kids build these kits "by the instructions", they often end up with fin cans that start coming loose, especially when they land on hard ground or pavement a few times (we cut spill holes and sometimes use streamers on small playgrounds). The other issue is the thin BT-50 body tubes. I'd like them to be more rugged, especially considering that kids (and teachers) sometimes handle the rockets pretty rough and often split the body tube at the top when they pinch the shock cord between the tube and nose cone.

All in all, I'm happy with the updates Estes has implemented. I've enjoyed watching the changes the company has made the last few years to keep drawing in kids at the big box stores and start reeling us old folks back in at the same time.

[blackshire]

At the risk of offending Estes (although Rick Piester, the self-described "Centuri kid" on Estes' staff, would likely be pleased), maybe you should suggest to them: "Since you're officially Centuri Corporation, could you use Centuri body tubes (i.e., thicker-walled, more durable ones) in the Generic E2X Bulk Kits?" :-) I am pleased to read, though, that they *did* implement your suggestions about the motor mount tubes and the thrust rings. Also:

Do the Generic E2X Bulk Kits now come with sufficiently-long shock cords, and are they rubber or cotton/elastic? What fin unit problems do the kids encounter (I presume you're referring to the un-swept, four-fin assemblies that were used in the Sky Writer and Athena kits)? Regarding the BT-50 body tube strength, if they would use brown virgin kraft paper tubes (perhaps with a white outer wrap), they are stronger than the recycled kraft paper tubes whose fibers are shorter (chopped) than those in virgin kraft paper tubes. In addition:

I didn't dislike the white parachutes, but I do like the red ones (and I was very pleased to see the old-style checkerboard 'chutes come back, and color-coded by canopy diameter, no less!).

[gpoehlein]

Something else they seem to have done with the new parachutes (at least the few I've seen have been this way) is to rig the shroud lines in a better pattern. One goes between opposite corners and the other two pairs along the sides. This arrangement helps cut down on shroud tangles better than the old "three sides" method. Since all Estes chutes are pre-rigged, this is a great improvement.

[tbzep]

They have gone back to rubber cords. They look like they are about 22-24" long.

As I mentioned in the post, kids build the kits by the instructions but they have issues with the cans becoming loose. The fin can is held in place by the motor tube's hook retaining ring and the big green adapter tube. The can is basically wedged between the two. Kids have issues getting a tight fit and after a few landings, the things start getting loose because the cans themselves aren't glued to the body tube. The retaining ring will also start to compress and allow the can to start working down over it.

BTW, not only are the new chutes nice looking, they now have gone back to the better quality shroud lines instead of the old weak fuzzy lines that were used in earlier pre-tied chutes.

[hcmbanjo]

Fromtbzep’s first post:

“The old kits had those horrendous extremely thin and weak blue motor tubes.”
I hate those Estes blue and Quest yellow tubes! They are always the first thing tossed and replaced with BT-20 or (better yet) ST-7 tubes.

“The new kits have standard white glassine coated BT-20 motor tubes.”
In addition to withstanding more stress during handling and flight, they should make assembly a little easier for the kids.”
I Agree - Great improvement Estes!

“The old kits came without engine blocks. . . The new kits have blocks included.”
It’s a little hard to believe the engines blocks weren’t included at first.

“The plain white chutes are gone. The new kits have orange and white checkerboard chutes.”
The new chutes and stronger shroud lines remind me of what they were in the late 1960s.

“The other issue is the thin BT-50 body tubes. I'd like them to be more rugged . . .”
Again I agree! BT-20 and BT-50 have always been a weak link, even more so recently. If the inside wraps have an open seam a hard landing easily crimps up the tube!

“All in all, I'm happy with the updates Estes has implemented.”
Estes is certainly back on track. Improvements, new kits and new engines. It’s great they are listening and making positive changes.

[hcmbanjo]

Something else they seem to have done with the new parachutes (at least the few I've seen have been this way) is to rig the shroud lines in a better pattern. One goes between opposite corners and the other two pairs along the sides. This arrangement helps cut down on shroud tangles better than the old "three sides" method. Since all Estes chutes are pre-rigged, this is a great improvement.

I noticed this in a pre-made chute and was very surprised.
The average new builder might not know the reason why the shroud lines are attached like this, but I thought it was pretty cool!

[blackshire]

They have gone back to rubber cords. They look like they are about 22-24" long.Thank you for this information--those sound sufficiently long to largely prevent "Estes Dents."As I mentioned in the post, kids build the kits by the instructions but they have issues with the cans becoming loose. The fin can is held in place by the motor tube's hook retaining ring and the big green adapter tube. The can is basically wedged between the two. Kids have issues getting a tight fit and after a few landings, the things start getting loose because the cans themselves aren't glued to the body tube. The retaining ring will also start to compress and allow the can to start working down over it.I used the tube-type Testors cement for plastic models to glue that type of fin unit to the motor mount tube, after lightly sanding both contact surfaces to enable the glue to "grab" on both parts. Depending on the age range of your pupils, however, using this glue might be problematic.BTW, not only are the new chutes nice looking, they now have gone back to the better quality shroud lines instead of the old weak fuzzy lines that were used in earlier pre-tied chutes.I've noticed that in other recent-vintage Estes kits, as well as the new shroud line attachment arrangement, and greatly appreciate both of these changes!

[BEC]

Good to hear about the improvements.

Here's an alternative glue you can use for the fin-to-BT joint: Pacer Formula 560 (this link (http://www.hobbypeople.net/index.php/pacer-formula-560-canopy-glue.html) for example). This glues plastic to paper quite nicely and yet handles like Elmer's glue. Works great for this joint on Alpha IIIs, Generics, MI-TIs, etc. Because it is slightly flexible when dry I'm finding it is also great for the screw eye-to-balsa nose cone connections as well.

[blackshire]

Good to hear about the improvements.

Here's an alternative glue you can use for the fin-to-BT joint: Pacer Formula 560 (this link (http://www.hobbypeople.net/index.php/pacer-formula-560-canopy-glue.html) for example). This glues plastic to paper quite nicely and yet handles like Elmer's glue. Works great for this joint on Alpha IIIs, Generics, MI-TIs, etc. Because it is slightly flexible when dry I'm finding it is also great for the screw eye-to-balsa nose cone connections as well.Ah--that sounds similar to the UHU Bond-All (which may still be available), which would bond plastic to paper (and soak into the paper before curing, creating a "miscible anchor"). It worked very well for gluing the short "extension" paper motor tubes into the fin units of the MPC/AVI (and early Quest) Starhawk and Tomahawk kits. The Pacer Formula 560 canopy glue sounds just like it.

[Shreadvector]

Generic E2X is designed for school use. in MANY schools, use of a plastic cement is prohibited since it has "fumes" and is "toxic". And the non-toxic Testors 'cement' is not really a useful cement at all.

Anyway, the use of white or yellow glue to asemble and install the fin unit/motor mount assembly is really quite simple and very secure. There is absolutely no need to use plastic cement at all on this kit.

[tbzep]

Generic E2X is designed for school use. in MANY schools, use of a plastic cement is prohibited since it has "fumes" and is "toxic". And the non-toxic Testors 'cement' is not really a useful cement at all.

Anyway, the use of white or yellow glue to asemble and install the fin unit/motor mount assembly is really quite simple and very secure. There is absolutely no need to use plastic cement at all on this kit.

True, and true, if done correctly. However, it is only secure if the student can get the green adapter pushed all the way down before the glue grabs. I'm working with kids that are 8 and under.

[DaveR]

I'm working with kids that are 8 and under.
You must have the patience of Job. :p

[blackshire]

True, and true, if done correctly. However, it is only secure if the student can get the green adapter pushed all the way down before the glue grabs. I'm working with kids that are 8 and under.I haven't tried this with yellow glue (although I think this would also work with it), but for gluing "tight" joints such as this one, I've had good results by first heating white glue before applying it. Putting the bottle of glue in a pan of water on a stove or a hot plate, and then heating the water (not to a boil, but only until the bottle is just -almost- too hot to comfortably touch) significantly reduces the viscosity of the glue. It makes the glue act like a lubricant while it's warm, allowing tightly-fitting, to-be-bonded parts with the glue on them to be slid into position. For field repairs, a portable Esbit Stove (the little folding one that can heat a cup of coffee or a bowl of soup using an Esbit fuel tablet) would work well for heating the glue bottle if the Sun isn't out.

[Bill]

Generic E2X is designed for school use. in MANY schools, use of a plastic cement is prohibited since it has "fumes" and is "toxic". And the non-toxic Testors 'cement' is not really a useful cement at all.

Anyway, the use of white or yellow glue to asemble and install the fin unit/motor mount assembly is really quite simple and very secure. There is absolutely no need to use plastic cement at all on this kit.

True, and true, if done correctly. However, it is only secure if the student can get the green adapter pushed all the way down before the glue grabs. I'm working with kids that are 8 and under.


The best glue for installing tight-fitting parts and avoiding premature adhesion is Aleene's Tacky Glue.

I use all four kinds of the water-based glues:
Aleene's Tacky Glue - grab-proof installation of motor mounts and tube couplers.
yellow wood glue - general building.
Titebond Trim and Molding glue - fin fillets.
Elmer's Glue All - final "finish" coat over fin fillets.



Bill

[tbzep]

All these glue varieties and techniques are all fine and dandy for us. However, we're missing the big picture here. These kids are little and have absolutely ZERO skills outside of Playstation/Xbox controllers.

It's no big deal, though. I can usually take the most jacked up rocket of the bunch and make it safe enough to get into the air at least once.

[Chr$]

Yep. What he said!

I also think heating the glue around kids is a bit of a no-no, and not likely easily done in a gymnasium on a wobbly folding table nowhere near an outlet., lest one wants one or more running kids tripping over the cord and pulling the whole thing to the floor.

Kids today...


All these glue varieties and techniques are all fine and dandy for us. However, we're missing the big picture here. These kids are little and have absolutely ZERO skills outside of Playstation/Xbox controllers.

It's no big deal, though. I can usually take the most jacked up rocket of the bunch and make it safe enough to get into the air at least once.

[blackshire]

Yep. What he said!

I also think heating the glue around kids is a bit of a no-no, and not likely easily done in a gymnasium on a wobbly folding table nowhere near an outlet., lest one wants one or more running kids tripping over the cord and pulling the whole thing to the floor.

Kids today...That problem is easily prevented by preventing the running. When I was in the fourth grade, we even made wax candles as a pre-Thanksgiving project in school, dipping the dangling wicks into molten wax that was heated on an electric hot plate, re-dipping after each layer solidified in order to build up the diameter. Any beginning of horseplay or running was nipped in the bud by the teacher shouting "HEY! *YOU* STOP--RIGHT NOW!" after loudly clapping her hands to get the errant child's/children's attention. No wax got knocked over, no cords were tripped over, and no one got burnt, because no one ran or engaged in other "monkey-shines," and we were sternly warned against it beforehand. It's time for adults to enforce discipline again and not worry about the little darlings' feelings.

[Chr$]

Yeah, different when WE were kids. Try that now, and the parents get butt hurt. Amazing...

That problem is easily prevented by preventing the running. When I was in the fourth grade, we even made wax candles as a pre-Thanksgiving project in school, dipping the dangling wicks into molten wax that was heated on an electric hot plate, re-dipping after each layer solidified in order to build up the diameter. Any beginning of horseplay or running was nipped in the bud by the teacher shouting "HEY! *YOU* STOP--RIGHT NOW!" after loudly clapping her hands to get the errant child's/children's attention. No wax got knocked over, no cords were tripped over, and no one got burnt, because no one ran or engaged in other "monkey-shines," and we were sternly warned against it beforehand. It's time for adults to enforce discipline again and not worry about the little darlings' feelings.

[Rich Holmes]

Aleene's Tacky Glue - grab-proof installation of motor mounts and tube couplers.


Really? I have Aleene's in my glue repertoire but never thought of trying it for grab-prone parts. I've been using epoxy instead for these, somewhat reluctantly. I had a motor mount to go install this morning when I found this message... a TTW design so it needed to be lined up carefully. I tried the Aleene's. No grabbing problems during the installation. Admittedly not the tightest centering rings I've ever used so maybe not so stringent a test. But I think I'll forego the epoxy in favor of Aleene's from here on, unless I find a reason not to. Thanks!

[blackshire]

Yeah, different when WE were kids. Try that now, and the parents get butt hurt. Amazing...I anticipated your reply, and exactly what you would say (which I do not disagree with), but there *are* ways to get around this problem (which in this case has to do with heating bottles of white or yellow glue in pans of water on hot plates, to use the heat-thinned glue on tight-fitting, sliding parts joints so that they won't get stuck). For example:

The hot plate could be set up on a card table (or a small wooden or metal table) against a wall, right in front of the electrical outlet for the hot plate's cord--if the outlet was near a corner of the room (so that the table could be placed in the corner), that would be even better. With this set-up (including a sign saying "DON'T TOUCH--IT'S *HOT*!" next to the hot plate, or even written -on- it using a felt marker), there would be no loose electrical cord for anyone to trip over. Also:

We as adults must (subtly, tactfully) attack and undermine the current ridiculous attitudes (such as the one you highlighted above), and we can do it *without* being confrontational with even the lowest-hovering "helicopter parents," or else our society's children will grow up more and more ill-prepared to solve problems on their own, with fewer and fewer physical skills ("because we can't let them hurt themselves!"). I have done it successfully by appealing to parents' sense of pride in their children, and other adults have done it by having a child/children of the same age (in a rocket club) who *know(s)* how to do these things demonstrate them without fanfare, showing that they -are- safe if done in a serious, mindful manner. The parents are as impressed with those kids' serious attitudes and more mature behavior as they are with their skills with tools and building rocket kits. In addition:

Marlys House, a teacher in Eagle, Alaska whom I've been helping (Neal Brown, a retired University of Alaska Professor [and former Director of the Poker Flat Research Range] and I have assisted her with donations of model rocketry and ham radio equipment), uses these techniques to win over "helicopter parents," with great success. The news of her STEM academic course enrichment activities (in the kids' 4-H Club as well as in school) spread locally like wildfire, and parents there are eager to have their children get involved in her class projects, even though they involve the kids using soldering irons, solder & flux, X-Acto knives, and other "dangerous" things. She and Neal (who communicates with them via Skype sessions) of course carefully brief the children and inform the parents regarding the necessity to be very safety-conscious, and it has paid off handsomely--the children understand the physics of rocketry, know how to prepare and fly them, know how to solder properly, know how to build radios from scratch, and several of them got their amateur radio licenses last year! As well:

The rockets that I have donated to Marlys House include the Estes UP Aerospace SpaceLoft, and the children had no difficulties building, prepping, and flying them (I included information on how to correct the kit's minor shortcomings). They didn't have problems packing the rockets' streamers because--with Ms. House taking advantage of a teaching opportunity--they practiced streamer (and wadding) packing techniques before going outside to launch the models (which was actually more realistic, doing pre-flight preparation and inspection as with full-scale rockets). I am glad that I had problems packing BT-5 size rockets at a young age, because overcoming the problems (including learning to use an ordinary object--a pen--as a tool to aid in packing the wadding and streamers) made the subsequent flights much more satisfying. Smoothing out *all* of the difficulties for children robs them of that satisfaction, and they are missed opportunities to teach them patience and sharpen their manual dexterity.

[Rich Holmes]

Really? I have Aleene's in my glue repertoire but never thought of trying it for grab-prone parts. I've been using epoxy instead for these, somewhat reluctantly. I had a motor mount to go install this morning when I found this message... a TTW design so it needed to be lined up carefully. I tried the Aleene's. No grabbing problems during the installation. Admittedly not the tightest centering rings I've ever used so maybe not so stringent a test. But I think I'll forego the epoxy in favor of Aleene's from here on, unless I find a reason not to. Thanks!
OK, I found a reason not to.

I'm building an Estes Ventris, and I used Aleene's for initial gluing of the motor mount. I had a hard time adjusting the position, not a good thing with TTW fins, but I did get it in place. I figured maybe I needed to apply the glue more heavily.

So when I went to glue the body tube coupler I made sure to use a liberal application of tacky glue. I shoved in the coupler to the midpoint mark, not too difficult. I paused for (literally) a second, and then tried to twist the coupler. It wouldn't budge. Nor would it go further in or out.

There was, however, lots of glue dripping down the inside of the body tube, which I cleaned up with a cotton swab taped to a stick.

This is about the same kind of grabbing behavior I've gotten with yellow glue or (modern formula) Elmer's Glue-All. I don't know why my results were so different from Bill's. Temperature, humidity, some other uncontrolled variable? Old glue? Mine's been around quite a while.

Anyway, I no longer trust the stuff. I consider myself lucky to have gotten both the coupler and especially the motor mount into the right positions. As of the other end of that coupler, I'm back to using epoxy on tight fit parts.

[Jerry Irvine]

We have been doing some focus groups lately. Give a total newbie a rocket and see what problems they encounter. E2X is desired by the manufacturer because it is the lowest cost method and assembly while non-trivial is at least engineered.

The paper and ply and plastic rockets USR specializes in has a different set of difficulties. The build is simpler but the fin attach feels like magic until you have done it a couple of times already.

The rockets with paper tubes and balsa fins are the most approachable overall. This is based on recent focus groups not my own biases, but all the years I taught rocketry classes in elementary school (5-6 grade) I always used Estes kits with balsa fins and standard engines. I like the Comet for example.

I think E2X was not focus grouped at all and the time delay to make manufacturing mods has measured in several years.

If you want a simple rocket for beginners, try something like an Alpha or Sizzler or whatever they call their longer BT-50 tube rockets these days. It's only a little more money and the larger size actually makes it easier to build. I went with BT-55 rockets to make it simpler still. Since I was offering a complete experience for 42 kids at a time shoved in 5 1 hour sessions I needed minimal problems along the way. That saved labor cost and that savings offset the slight cost differential at wholesale.

Jerry

[Chr$]

Bit of an old thread, but lately, with the Estes sales, I've bought the cosmic explorers at $4.25 or so, and they make a good rocket for kids... Larger BT's do help. Smaller ones, like those little horrible up aerospace kits. Avoid those. Too hard for kids and adults alike to build.

On the under 8 crowd, and when in a situation where the rockets need to be built in a single meeting (like cub scouts) I use the generic e2x and do the following:

I pre glue the shock cords and launch lugs
I pre slice the motor mount for the hook
I, too, cut up old motors to make thrust rings before they came with them.

The Generic is nice because, being white, all the kids have to do to decorate them is color them or put stickers on them. works great!

About the only change I would suggest is to put a 1/4" or longer shoulder on the fin can above the fins so you could use some foil tape (or any tape) to help secure it like the old Centuri Screaming Eagle's did.

Oh, It really needs a better name...