Marketing

[rocket_james]

I've been thinking about just what our goals are as the SVDT. Outside of Carl's specific request regarding the motors, and the rocket designs that Craig is popping out like popcorn at a movie, I was thinking about how I might contribute. I need a goal or I get bored. So, hence this thread.

What should Semroc be? Obviously, they can't be all things to all people. The motor thing certainly seems like a good idea. It seems to me that Semroc became popular so fast because a niche was open, namely cloning Centuri rockets. There seemed to be a fair amount of resources available if you wanted to clone your favorite old Estes rocket, but before Semroc, finding the resources to clone your favorite Centuri rocket was difficult if not impossible. The same kind of niche is available for low-power and contest motors. So, filling the motor void should work well. What next, then?

Mid-power rockets? Not just any mid-power rockets, but cool mid-power rockets that remind us of our roots. Why not upscale the classics. This already seems to be a proven concept with the SLS Laser-X, etc. Then, you provide the motors that go with them. High-power is having difficulties with the BATFE issues. I assume the hobby will find a way to get around the issues and make its way back, but HP flying in our area isn't what it used to be. So, mid-power should be ripe for a major resurgence right now.

I love the Classics page. Getting those filled out seems to make sense. I love the idea of picking parts off the page to build my classic kit. Too cool! So, with all that going on, does making additional sport rocket designs really start to stretch Semroc resources? Is there really a big market for that? It seems to me that there are three markets: the fly one rocket crowd ("forc"), the "new" rocketeers, and "old" rocketeers. Since Semroc is putting rockets out on the shelf now, he should be able to reach the forcs. With the classics, he is reaching the old rocketeers. Seems to me, the new rocketeers are a group that can be accessed. If those are anything like my grandson, Blake, they're going to move towards the SLS side of Semroc.

That covers rockets. Then, there's parts. I like the interchangeable motor mounts that Carl is putting out, ala SLS Laser-X. I don't like black Lexan centering rings!! So, I hope those die out. Certainly, there's some room to expand in this area with some creativity. Remember the Sport Rocketry article with the guys that were building the rockets that could be totally disassembled. That sounded like a really good concept to move forward with. Blake thought that was just awesome. With the variety of parts that Carl has now, "builders" should have plenty of tubes and cones. Maybe some specialty cones and cockpit templates would be a good thing to offer?

Just some food for thought that might get us focused in areas that make sense for Semroc.

Thoughts, Carl? Others?
James

[Carl@Semroc]

That is a lot of INPUT! I love it. I feel that we have been in a sort of vacuum over the past 5 years.

[Royatl]

What black lexan centering rings???

[rocket_james]

That is a lot of INPUT! I love it. I feel that we have been in a sort of vacuum over the past 5 years.
Thanks, Carl! Hey, you've been sort of busy lately! All that y'all have accomplished over the past few years is nothing short of awesome.

Maybe someone in here can design a 3" x 3" ad for you that I could drop into the DARS newsletter. I'm amazed at the caliber of talent you have in this group. Unfortunately, that is not my forte, or I'd already have sent one to you.
James

[rocket_james]

What black lexan centering rings???
Several vendors started providing these in lieu of the flat paper rings like Estes' CR-2060. The material they're made out of leaves a black residue on anything they touch. I think even Semroc was using them for a period of time, although the last order I got were different, and very nice. The last order I got from BMS about a year ago included those. They don't specifically state that's what they're made of, so you don't know it until you get them. I got one of the Saturn 1-B rockets from Zooch Rockets and those were loose in the box with the wraps and tubes. The stuff was all over the place. The instructions even mentioned to clean off any residue that might have gotten on the wraps. I ask now to be sure that's not what I'm getting. I won't scan one for you, for obvious reasons. :rolleyes:
James

[Carl@Semroc]

I think it is just black mat board. It was one of the first things we tried, other than balsa, on our laser cutter. The black hides the soot from the burn, but it is still there and gets on everything. We tried many different brands of mat board before we settled on the white one we use. It still has a soot residue, but it was the least of all the ones we tried.

Even with the soot problem, the laser cut fiber does a much more accurate job than die cut fiber. We never had much luck with die cut cardboard unless it was index (.010") thickness.

We have three thicknesses of fiber now. Only the 4-ply (.050") has gotten much use so far. We have 2-ply (.025") which is closer to Estes and Quest, but is too thin for our tastes at least with 18mm engines. We have used 6-ply (.070") in testing and it does well. We will probably add a new line of centering rings using it when lite ply is overkill and 4-ply is not quite thick enough. Ideas?

[rocket_james]

I liked the Estes CR-2060 rings. The paper held up nicely. I haven't yet tried the last ones I ordered from you. They look great! The residue from the laser cutting isn't bad at all. Actually, I was wondering how they might react with a rocket motor that has a high initial thrust. Could they crack? I'm not an engineer, but t seems to me that the paper centering rings would tend to have more flex, thereby absorbing the energy better than something more stiff. I am out of my league here, though. :eek:
James

[Tau Zero]

Only the 4-ply (.050") has gotten much use so far. [SNIP]
We have used 6-ply (.070") in testing and it does well. We will probably add a new line of centering rings using it when lite ply is overkill and 4-ply is not quite thick enough. Ideas?(glassy-eyed hypnotized look) I could use some 4-ply CR-10250's for my Mu-Tater design... ;) (...and I'll be using both AR- and RA-2050's for my "close but no cigar" SAROS).


We have 2-ply (.025") which is closer to Estes and Quest, but is too thin for our tastes at least with 18mm engines.(hacking, coughing, and spewing sound effects)

--I'm *nothing* if not melodramatic. :eek: :rolleyes: ;) :D :p

Actually, I end up gluing the 2-ply rings to 1/16" balsa, just to beef them up. (Which *shouldn't* even be necessary, if the centering rings were "beefy" enough in the first place. :mad: )


Cheers,

[Royatl]

Several vendors started providing these in lieu of the flat paper rings like Estes' CR-2060. The material they're made out of leaves a black residue on anything they touch. I think even Semroc was using them for a period of time, although the last order I got were different, and very nice. The last order I got from BMS about a year ago included those. They don't specifically state that's what they're made of, so you don't know it until you get them. I got one of the Saturn 1-B rockets from Zooch Rockets and those were loose in the box with the wraps and tubes. The stuff was all over the place. The instructions even mentioned to clean off any residue that might have gotten on the wraps. I ask now to be sure that's not what I'm getting. I won't scan one for you, for obvious reasons. :rolleyes:
James


Ok, "lexan" is a trade name for a hard plastic (used for windows, model car bodies, etc.), which is why I was confused. I know of the paper you're talking about, and yes, it's residue can be annoying.

[Royatl]

The Estes cardboard has always usually been sufficient. The Quest cardboard was just pathetic, cheap stuff for awhile. Supposedly they've corrected that, but I'll believe it when I see it.

The stuff you use is great.

[Carl@Semroc]

Thanks, Roy.

[foose4string]

I assumed the black rings were made from some sort of carbon fiber. I attributed the black residue to the actual material being used and not from laser soot...interesting. They are very sturdy and work well, but very messy as others have stated. I think BMS is the root source for them. Fliskit and Zooch use them in their kits. Doesn't keep me from buying their kits, but I like the white rings that Estes supply much better. The Semroc rings have worked out just fine, but maybe night quite as stiff as the competition, but certainly better than the Quest junk.

[Doug Sams]

I assumed the black rings were made from some sort of carbon fiber. I attributed the black residue to the actual material being used and not from laser soot...interesting. They are very sturdy and work well, but very messy as others have stated. I think BMS is the root source for them. Fliskit and Zooch use them in their kits. Doesn't keep me from buying their kits, but I like the white rings that Estes supply much better. The Semroc rings have worked out just fine, but maybe night quite as stiff as the competition, but certainly better than the Quest junk. I think "Letramax" was the term James was looking for. Laser cut or not, this stuff can be messy. I frequently need to sand out the inside or sand down the outside to make a ring fit, and it can be messy. Plus, it tends to delaminate during this process, but I just glue it back together and grin and bear it. It's still a decent material strength wise and cost wise. And compared to wound rings, you'll find those things come apart pretty easy too when you're sanding them to size.

I'm not wild about Letramax, but I just kinda looked at the messiness as the "price of admission" so to speak. Heck, CA and epoxy can be messy. Sanding and spraypainting are, too. In fact, just about everything in my garage has a dull, gray tint from overspray :(

Doug

[rocket_james]

I think "Letramax" was the term James was looking for.
Thanks for the correction, Doug. :)
I'm not wild about Letramax, but I just kinda looked at the messiness as the "price of admission" so to speak. Heck, CA and epoxy can be messy. Sanding and spraypainting are, too. In fact, just about everything in my garage has a dull, gray tint from overspray :(
But it is a cool garage! :D

[Sheryl@Semroc]

Really not sure where to post this. Guess this is a good a place as any. To cut down on time we have decided to exclude headers (card at the top of each kit) to our on-line customers. We will have them on kits going to stores, but since most of our customers are on-line this will save time and money. Before I do too many kits without headers, I would like some feedback on your thoughts about this. Thanks for your time.

Sheryl

[CPMcGraw]

Really not sure where to post this. Guess this is a good a place as any. To cut down on time we have decided to exclude headers (card at the top of each kit) to our on-line customers. We will have them on kits going to stores, but since most of our customers are on-line this will save time and money. Before I do too many kits without headers, I would like some feedback on your thoughts about this. Thanks for your time.

Sheryl

Sheryl,

Although the headers have nothing to do with the kit itself, it does make for a nice-looking package. When I open up one of these kits, I usually start by cutting off the header, so one might say it's the first thing to go. Yet, for the length of time that I might have that kit sitting unopened on the shelf, that header card in its own little way makes the kit stand out from the rest that much more. I guess it does take up a lot of time to include them in every kit, and that time can add up over the span of a few packing sessions. But it's still a nice touch that the other kits don't have.

I know that doesn't help... :o

[Sheryl@Semroc]

Craig,

Thanks for the quick reply. Got us thinking, the Header is also the only place where it says Made in the USA. Will have to do more thinking about this.

Sheryl

[Ltvscout]

Really not sure where to post this. Guess this is a good a place as any. To cut down on time we have decided to exclude headers (card at the top of each kit) to our on-line customers. We will have them on kits going to stores, but since most of our customers are on-line this will save time and money. Before I do too many kits without headers, I would like some feedback on your thoughts about this. Thanks for your time.
I have no problem with this. All I would ask for is a header and production # for the new release reserve kits for us collectors. ;)

Saving time & money is a good thing!

[Ltvscout]

Greg,

Thanks for the quick reply. Got us thinking, the Header is also the only place where it says Made in the USA. Will have to do more thinking about this.
Couldn't that be placed on the face card somewhere?

[Eagle3]

I have no problem with this. All I would ask for is a header and production # for the new release reserve kits for us collectors. ;)

Saving time & money is a good thing!

Totally agree with Scott here. BTW - have you thought of a new reserve kit scheme yet? I know Carl had mentioned before that it needed to be reworked.

PS - I'd be adding "Proudly Made in the USA" at the bottom of every plan page. ;)

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Really not sure where to post this. Guess this is a good a place as any. To cut down on time we have decided to exclude headers (card at the top of each kit) to our on-line customers. We will have them on kits going to stores, but since most of our customers are on-line this will save time and money. Before I do too many kits without headers, I would like some feedback on your thoughts about this. Thanks for your time.

Sheryl

I've already got one stuck over my workbench (Astro-1, IIRC,) so go ahead and cut them out. :D
As far as the "Made In The USA", my first thought was what Scott suggested.

[Sheryl@Semroc]

Couldn't that be placed on the face card somewhere?
As many instructions that I've printed, stapled, and folded you would think I would have noticed the Made in the USA between the boxes on the covers.

Sheryl

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

As many instructions that I've printed, stapled, and folded you would think I would have noticed the Made in the USA between the boxes on the covers.

Sheryl

See? That wasn't so tough! :rolleyes: :D ;)

[Gus]

Personally, I like the headers. Although they're not too useful once the kit is at home, I just think they make the kits look a bit more professional. Another thing that separates Semroc from the crowd.

But as a marketing tool, Sheryl, removing the headers for the online versions is probably a great move. Now those of us collecting kits will have to collect both the "Store-version" and the "Online-version".

Will there now be two series of Reserve Kits, the online and store versions, each with their own numbers? :eek: ;)

How will I afford this?

Oh the inhumanity. :o

Darn you Semroc! Darn you to Heck and back! :p

[rocket_james]

Really not sure where to post this. Guess this is a good a place as any. To cut down on time we have decided to exclude headers (card at the top of each kit) to our on-line customers. We will have them on kits going to stores, but since most of our customers are on-line this will save time and money. Before I do too many kits without headers, I would like some feedback on your thoughts about this. Thanks for your time.

Sheryl
I know everything is a cost, but I think the header card adds a certain look of professionalism to the kit. Also, for those of us who live in the boonies, the internet is our hobby shop and we would still like to get the "real deal." I don't know if it's practical to offer two "styles" of the kit to internet customers, one that could be accessed via a "bare bones" link and another that offers the same kit as you put into the hobby store. Personally, I'd rather pay more than lose the header.

As a move to "push" more customers to buy from the hobby stores, providing only a bare bones kit on the internet would probably push some folks to buy there. Even I could wait until my next trip "into town." I would probably end up buying less though - that whole impulse thing. ;) That's also assuming I could find a hobby store that carries all of your kits. "Hot" kits are also often difficult for me to acquire from the hobby shop. Folks who live nearby snap them up before I can make it into town. Another reason some may buy from the internet is to get the low production number. If the desire is more to push customers to buy from the hobby stores, eliminating the production number from the kit would be the principal driving force to make that happen. Again, sales are probably going to drop as a result of that - the impulse buying affects again, plus that whole status thing of having a low production number.

Assuming brick and mortar sales really take off, it may be a moot point. The production costs of running two different options will probably not make sense at that time.
James

[rocket_james]

But as a marketing tool, Sheryl, removing the headers for the online versions is probably a great move. Now those of us collecting kits will have to collect both the "Store-version" and the "Online-version".

Will there now be two series of Reserve Kits, the online and store versions, each with their own numbers?
Acck! That's right. Hadn't thought of that possibility. Two series of production numbers might actually result in additional sales! Oh my wallet aches. :eek:
James

[Sheryl@Semroc]

Are you trying to drive me crazy? One set of production numbers is hard enough to keep up with. Our production numbered kits go only to people who reserve the kits before they go into production. We keep those kits back and the rest are kitted up without production numbers. We do not ship production numbered kits to stores, unless they are from a batch that still has them left that has not been rekitted (they are usually in the 300-400 production range)

[rocket_james]

Are you trying to drive me crazy? One set of production numbers is hard enough to keep up with. Our production numbered kits go only to people who reserve the kits before they go into production. We keep those kits back and the rest are kitted up without production numbers. We do not ship production numbered kits to stores, unless they are from a batch that still has them left that has not been rekitted (they are usually in the 300-400 production range)
OK, then they should all carry your original signature. :D Just kidding!! :p I have not seen any better penmanship in my many years! If kids saw your signature they might be motivated to improve their penmanship. :) ;) :p :D
James

[CQBArms]

Yeah a signature series of SLS kits would be awesome!