PDA

View Full Version : Sick and Tired of Racing safety bias


ghrocketman
05-25-2014, 12:38 PM
I for one am sick and tired of the bias in professional motor racing toward mamby-pamby candy-a$$ed safety at the expense of performance/speed.
Examples:

Indy Car: pit-lane speed limits & black-flags for blocking

NASCAR: pit lane speed limits, black flags for blocking, forced wing dimensions, constant part limitations to equalize cars to remove any engineering innovation, idiotic intake restrictor plates to limit top speeds on
largest tracks.

NHRA: reduction of drag race distance to 1000' from the 1/4 mile in Top Fuel and Funny Car classes.

Formula One gets it RIGHT ! Hole shot race starts, NO full-course yellow flags (limited to maybe 1 or 2 curves), no pit speed limits (slingshot in and out!) like all other leagues used to be, no 'competition cautions' EVER to equalize the field.

I honestly would like ALL racing leagues to return to their 'outlaw' roots where caution/safety are thrown to the wind for all out performance/speed NO MATTER THE COST. That WOULD get more fans. NASCAR should EMBRACE brawls in the pits, not ostracize them. NOT JOKING.

If you can't take the HEAT, GET OUTTA THE KITCHEN.

I for one would have ZERO problem with leagues having ZERO safety device requirements. If a driver wants to run a NO roll-cage death-trap with no helmet during the Daytona 500 to gain a weight advantage, it should be completely within his purview.

tmacklin
05-25-2014, 01:26 PM
Don't Mess With A.J. !

jetlag
05-25-2014, 03:19 PM
Gh, you're wrong about speed limits in F1. They definitely are speed limited. And, they cannot have an 'unsafe release' from the pits, either. Too many crew have been hurt and killed that way. Same in NASCAR.

You'll have to live with it or not watch.
I was glad for limits in the pits when I was racing. Safety for everyone. You are defenseless there paying attention to only your race car.

Allen

ghrocketman
05-25-2014, 03:39 PM
Bunk.
Pit crew need to stay the hell outta the way of the cars. Period.
I'd like to see the rules back the way they were in say 1970 wher it was close to a free-for-all.

harsas
05-25-2014, 06:12 PM
Bunk.
Pit crew need to stay the hell outta the way of the cars. Period.
I'd like to see the rules back the way they were in say 1970 wher it was close to a free-for-all.


Really? I am not a follower of racing but I would ask if you would if you think we should lose all the safety rules in high power rocketry. What about construction rules that forbid aluminum wiring? Or maybe we should reintroduce sweat shops. I hate over regulation but no regulation only allows money and stupidity to over rule life. As long as everyone is on an even playing field it is good to be safe.

ghrocketman
05-25-2014, 06:20 PM
I don't like seeing safety over-ride and have ANY impact on the #1 concept in racing- SPEED.
If it reduces speeds, I would vote against it every time.

jetlag
05-25-2014, 06:26 PM
Guess that's why you aren't racing!

ghrocketman
05-26-2014, 02:23 AM
The BEST kind of racing for thrills is STREET DRAG RACING. Next to no rules and blatantly scofflaw. I LIKE IT.
No helmets, no safety equipment, no regard for douchebag traffic cops, run-what-ya-brung no BS.

Doug Sams
05-26-2014, 07:43 AM
NASCAR: pit lane speed limits...I remember when the pit road speed limits were implemented. There had been an incident on pit road, and a crewman was crushed, at Talledega* IIRC. Doctor Jerry Punch, an ER physician in his day job, was calling the action on pit road. He stopped to care for the injured man, and stated later that he knew the man wouldn't make it. He tried to comfort him, to aid him and let him know help was coming.

[* Edit: It was in fact Atlanta.]

I nearly cried when Punch retold that story later. It was very sad.
...
I suspect NASCAR's underwriters wouldn't insure the races without pit road speed limits. That said, I'd like to see the limits removed or raised for green flag stops, when there are fewer cars and much less congestion on pit road. That's how the green-flag pitting was done during the all-star racing last weekend. I wonder if they were testing the concept...
...
One of the EE's I work with here carried tires on pit road for Nationwide races back in the 80's. He has all my respect!
...
BTW, there's a racing video from the 50's or early 60's showing Smokey Yunick changing a radiator in his car on pit road during a race at Darlington. At the time, there was no wall between the track and the pit lane, with little infield in between!

Doug

.

Doug Sams
05-26-2014, 07:50 AM
I for one would have ZERO problem with leagues having ZERO safety device requirements. If a driver wants to run a NO roll-cage death-trap with no helmet during the Daytona 500 to gain a weight advantage, it should be completely within his purview.I kinda used to think that way about boxing. I wanted to see some unlimited (or less restricted) fighting.

Now that we have it in the form of UFC and MMA, I prefer boxing. Seeing an @$$ whooping in a movie can be entertaining, but seeing it for real in MMA leaves me feeling disturbed. It's too brutal.

Maybe I'm getting soft in my old age (almost 53) but I know not to watch stuff that bothers me lest I should find myself unable to sleep.

Doug

.

Jerry Irvine
05-26-2014, 04:25 PM
I would ask if you would if you think we should lose all the safety rules in high power rocketry. Very few of the rules are for safety, but for commercial dominance by a select few (I used to be one), hand selected by a political upper class, who report to the last few remaining folks willing to annually renew a membership as tithe, and also willing to limit themselves to self-serving club certified motors contrary to federal law.

Club membership is not REQUIRED to access model rocket motors.

The safe distance to launch an N motor is 100 feet. I know this because I have done it for four decades, more than a decade longer than anybody I have ever met. What does NAR/TRA/NFPA say? 1500 feet? That is not safety. That is codifying a PC rule arbitrarily arrived at and never reviewed for excessiveness.

BATFE newly declared propellant to be an explosive despite the fact it does not explode till a JUDGE forced them to sit down and shut up.

Even though their own decades old self-written regulation 55.141-1-8 and a-7 clearly exempted propellant (and igniters and fuse) from such consideration.

DOT should certainly be next to exempt slow ambient burning propellants! NAR and TRA are you listening at all??

ghrocketman
05-26-2014, 06:44 PM
Since MMA has came into general prominence, I never watch boxing.
Boxing just plain sucks compared to MMA. I actually prefer the old "Pride Fighting" rules to the UFC rules.
Pride allowed almost everything but Hair-Pulls and Eye Gouging.
Pride even allowed "Ear Klops" where one cups their hands and slams them to the ears of their opponent, thusly stunning them.
Yes, I LIKE the next to no-rules A$$-KIKKIN'S of MMA. Roundhouse kicks or elbows to the head that knock out an opponent as quick as turning off a light switch. I LIKE the brutality and find it a much better value for the buck than ANY boxing ever could.
I like it when brawls break out in baseball and hockey games. The refs should stay the hell out of them and let it ENTERTAIN the crowd.

As far as High-Power Rocketry goes, yes I would like to see virtually all the regs removed including requiring any sort of certification. There should be ZERO weight/power limit for hobby rocketry and a waiver should only be required if flying over 3000' in CONTROLLED airspace such as for final approach to international airports. Most rules and regs that impact INDIVIDUAL freedom SUCK. If one wants to launch a J-motor rocket in their backyard, there should be NO regulations preventing it. I'm ALWAYS of the opinion that "No Harm=NO FOUL".

Bottom line, I find most rules on individuals to be a stifling nuisance. If one harms another, they have to pay the consequences.

NASCAR should run with zero insurance and make fans, employees, and drivers sign iron-clad hold-harmless waivers exempting ALL from any risk liability or not be allowed to participate. SHUT the lawyers down. If you dont want to risk it, stay HOME

georgegassaway
05-27-2014, 01:36 AM
I for one am sick and tired of the bias in professional motor racing toward mamby-pamby candy-a$$ed safety at the expense of performance/speed.
Examples:
[examples of putting all the drivers and pit crews lives in more danger , but not GH's in danger, deleted]

All talk, no skin in the game.

YOUR a** is not the one at risk on pit lane if the cars didn't have any speed limits.

YOUR a** is also not the one in the driver's seat, at risk of injury or death

All the safety stuff is needed. The 1970's? Only a bit better than the 1960's, which were a bit better than the 1950's, as far as drivers killed in wrecks at far slower speeds than later on. Like the high-sitting open cockpit Indy cars, no roll cages, where sometimes a driver could FALL OUT of the car, as happened in Indy in the 1950's or so.

Or the flaming wrecks that caused drivers severe permanent injury (Nikki Lauda) or literally burning to death trapped in a car (Swede Savage, though it took 2-3 weeks but IIRC seeing his car rocking back and forth after it stopped……like he was trying to get out as it burned as safety equipment took way too long to get there). And that is just two of too many.

Ah, those were the days be a "race fan", eh? Permanent injuries or death a few times each year. Bull****.

I remember in the 1990's when a number of drivers died. Adam Petty (Kyle's son, Richard's grandson). Clifford Allison (Bobby's son, brother of Davey), Neil Bonnett, and a number of others. Most of them in accidents that broke their necks due to the car and their bodies coming to a sudden stop while their head and helmet were not restrained so the skull popped loose from the spine.

Every f*cking time, NASCAR said nope, no safety devices that could be developed to prevent those. Translation: SUPER-Star didn't die, they were not important enough to NASCAR. Then Dale Earnhardt Sr died, and THEN within a YEAR, all of a sudden new secret technology was given by NASA and DARPA to address many of the key problems. Well, not really. NASCAR required drivers to wear the HANS device that had already been developed for use by drivers in CART and Indy car racing, which is what helps keep the head attached to the body in Adam Petty / Clifford Allison / Neil Bonnett / Dale Earnhardt SR -type crashes.

And the "soft wall, for decades NASCAR claimed a "rubber wall" would just make cars bounce back onto the track, and also of course nobody "important enough" had died yet. And still it wasn't NASCAR that developed it. It was developed for Indycar, for the Indianapolis race track, using crushable foam (like wall insulating foam sheets) with a flexible steel wall in front that would bend and absorb shock without cars bouncing back like a rubber ball. Today, most of the viewers of NASCAR races think the SAFER barrier was a NASCAR invention.

Sadly, many of my favorite drivers of the 70's and 80's and into the 90's did not retire of their own. Richard Petty retired by choice, few other of my favorites got to retire. Bobby Allison was in a horrible wreck, hitting the outer concrete wall very hard, which caused a brain injury he nearly died from. A SAFER barrier would have probably prevented that severe brain injury, though a HANS device may also have helped. Definitely the HANS device and/or SAFER wall would have probably saved Clifford Allison, Neil Bonnett, Adam Petty, and many others through the years ( I think Tiny Lund died the same way in the 1970's), but NASCAR kept treating the same "skull snapped off from spine" fatal injury (like a long-drop hanging execution) as the price of doing business….when it was the drivers, their families, friends, and fans paying that price, not NASCAR (also most of those happened during practice or running for the pole and not during an actual race).

When Earnhardt was killed on Fox Sports' heavily hyped FIRST Daytona 500 broadcast, in what looked to be a relatively minor crash, that is what had the fans and the networks clamoring for NASCAR to finally quit pretending it was not a problem and stop lying about it being impossible to do anything. That was NASCAR's "9/11", or "Challenger" moment, unfortunately caused to some extent by their own neglect of not having a high priority on driver safety, as shown by ridiculing the soft wall idea for decades rather than actually trying to test any out.

I'm a big fan of racing. And I mean RACING. I'm not into it for the crashes, anyone who cheers for crashes is not a race fan. I worked a few times on a charter bus from Birmingham to the Talladega races. One time two guys, who brought their own ice chest of beer, asked where the best place would be to sit to see the crashes. Those guys were not race fans, they just wanted to gawk and get drunk (one of them was a problem on the drive back). But since they were customers I didn't tell them that they were not real race fans, but I also didn't recommend anyplace to see the wrecks better, even if any place had come to mind. I can think of a wreck that happened with Kyle Busch, who drives too recklessly and crashes out other drivers more than most anyone else. The crowd cheered when he wrecked…. but several other cars got wrecked with him and I do not know how so many in the crowd could be sure that THEIR favorite driver was not caught in the same wreck, in which case some probably were accidentally cheering their own driver being wrecked (because the wreck was at the far end of the track where it was hard to make out the other specific cars by eye, Talladega is a huge track). To me that's another big reason NOT to like wrecks, aside from the danger, and injury risk, but that wrecks are wild cards that can catch your own favorite driver in one and ruin your enjoyment of the rest of the race (not to mention your driver's of course!).

So, GH, how many real world car races DID you race in and win? How many times were you on the pit crew "over the wall" during green flag racing, with no speed limits? When was the last NASCAR or Indycar/CART race you attended?

If you don't like the safety rules in racing……. then don't watch it! I'd rather see safe races that are RACES rather than crash-fests, and for drivers to eventually retire of their own choice rather than to be crippled or killed.

- George Gassaway

gpoehlein
05-27-2014, 07:05 AM
I would like to note that I agree 100% with George's post. It has been a long standing observation of mine that sports are DEFINED by their rules, not limited by them. Rules provide the boundaries that allow the athletes to prove their greatness within. Ever watch an air race? A group of planes looping several times around two pylons. The guy with the fastest plane wins - period. That is why I like F1 racing the most - yes, a car that has good speed and good handling helps, but the skill of the driver is extremely important as well. In fact THAT is the reason for your much despised "restrictor plates" - they make sure that the race is a much more even playing field and keep the guys with the most money from running away with it.

As for the mayhem you so crave and miss - only a juvenile child would watch for that. Do you think that this is a Roadrunner-Coyote cartoon where they crash for your amusement only to get up and do it again? We are talking about people's lives here! I was watching the race on TV the day Savage was burned to death. I was watching the F1 race when Senna hit the wall and was impaled on a piece of his car. Two brilliant athletes who's lives were tragically cut short for the amusement and entertainment of those who watch for the crashes. And it isn't just the drivers - pit crew members have been injured or killed when hit by cars or debris. And isn't it hillarious when cars crash and a tire bounces over the safety fence and injures or kills several people in the crowd? But I guess all those people had it coming - they were at the race.

So for all those who like to see the carnage and mayhem - grow up! Or stop watching racing and go watch a 24 hour marathon of "Fight Club". Me, I'm perfectly happy watching the drivers go a few miles per hour slower, slow down in the pits and around accidents, and wear safety gear if it means everyone gets to go home to their loved ones intact and healthy at the end of the day!

ghrocketman
05-27-2014, 08:27 AM
As usual, George is loaded with FECAL Gass.

I LIKE the Busch Brothers (Kyle & Kurt) brand of racing. Take no prisoners to get to the front. If it results in wrecks, TOUGH.

I watch for the SPEED, never the wrecks which just slow things down.

Safety devices should be the choice of the individual, not via some mamby-pamby mandate.

As I said before, if it slows the cars down for ANY reason, I would be against a rules change. If it increases the speed (no matter the indirect consequences) I would be in favor of it. If you dont want the risk to earn millions of $$$, dont participate.

I too saw the Senna fatal F1 crash live...while tragic, I'm sure he was aware of the risks.

Doug Sams
05-27-2014, 09:45 AM
Then Dale Earnhardt Sr died, and THEN within a YEAR, all of a sudden new secret technology was given by NASA and DARPA to address many of the key problems. Well, not really. NASCAR required drivers to wear the HANS device that had already been developed for use by drivers in CART and Indy car racing, which is what helps keep the head attached to the body in Adam Petty / Clifford Allison / Neil Bonnett / Dale Earnhardt SR -type crashes. Good post, George.

While we're picking on NASCAR, let me also point out that both Bonnett and Earnhardt, both of whom I met over the years, were killed in accidents where the dip in turn 4 at Daytona was a factor. And it was not fixed until several years after Earnhardt's death when the speedway was finally repaved.

The France family owns NASCAR, and most of International Speedway Corporation, which owns Daytona, Talledega, and many others, so they not only control the series, they control many of the tracks. Which means they were in charge, and could have repaired the dip in turn 4 years earlier without the added burden of repaving the entire track. IMO, both those deaths were preventable. (Altho I don't think Bonnett should have ever gotten back in the car after his head injury, at Darlington, IIRC. I think it made him more susceptible to subsequent head trauma, but I'm not a doctor.)
...

That said, taking a different perspective, just as airbags in cars are attributed to more drivers taking risks, I've noticed way more accidents, late in races, since NASCAR went to the HANS devices and newer cars with more crush space ("Car of Tomorrow"). That is, it seems like the racing has deteriorated some with the safer cars. It's frustrating they can't get thru the last 20 laps without 3 yellow flags. Then have a contrived green-white-checker finish too often. Some times, it's better to finish under caution than to have a do-over finish.


Doug


.

Jerry Irvine
05-27-2014, 09:58 AM
There is a group pf people that want to "codify everything". There is a group of people who want the rules to resemble guidelines and a very brief list of actual codes. These systems drive different processes and outcomes. The problem is in most fields of endeavor the codify everything folks are winning, especially in rocketry.

However most of rocket growth and growth of other endeavors happened before the codification became prevalent. Reducing codification would propel growth.

Safe growth.

Jerry

The first "safety code":

http://v-serv.com/usr/images/1stSafetyCode.jpg
Here is the very first "safety code" for model
rocketry. It was a vendor developed admonishion
by Rock-A-Chute company circa 1957.

ghrocketman
05-27-2014, 12:23 PM
That old "Rock a Chute" safety code seems like PLENTY, and I'm not joking.

luke strawwalker
05-27-2014, 09:07 PM
The BEST kind of racing for thrills is STREET DRAG RACING. Next to no rules and blatantly scofflaw. I LIKE IT.
No helmets, no safety equipment, no regard for douchebag traffic cops, run-what-ya-brung no BS.

Wonder if you'd feel the same way if your family got killed by a couple idiots out doing illegal street racing... after all, they should have known what could happen if they got on the road in their car... free for all, right??

Bury your kid and shut up... we're havin' FUN!!!

Serious stupidity... and anybody that street drags and kills someone should get the death penalty...

Later! OL JR :)

georgegassaway
05-27-2014, 10:21 PM
So, GH, how many real world car races DID you race in and win? How many times were you on the pit crew "over the wall" during green flag racing, with no speed limits? When was the last NASCAR or Indycar/CART race you attended?

OK, so GH refused to answer that. No surprise that he's all danger for everybody else (not HIM) but he's never raced, and apparently never even attended a race in person.

Just a big mouth spouting off bull$***, as typical.

I think that if the HANS device and SAFER barrier had not been created, one or more of my favorite drivers might have been kllied or unable to continue racing anymore, given very serious wrecks the last 10-12 years. So I take it that GH would rather drivers like that DIE or be severely injured, for GH to "get his jollies off", as he doesn't give a F*** about anybody else, just his twisted idea of "entertainment".

- George Gassaway

Jerry Irvine
05-27-2014, 11:07 PM
People Go To The Races To See The Crashes.

jetlag
05-28-2014, 06:29 AM
I always like the "Show us your *its" signs in the infield. Especially when they do!! :D

chadrog
05-28-2014, 08:03 AM
I always like the "Show us your *its" signs in the infield. Especially when they do!! :D
They do that at races? Reason enough to check it out I guess!

tmacklin
05-28-2014, 09:37 AM
I always like the "Show us your *its" signs in the infield. Especially when they do!! :D


Yeah. We get lots of that at our launches. :eek:

Shreadvector
05-28-2014, 12:16 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq1SZrZbRMA

ghrocketman
05-28-2014, 02:24 PM
I don't have to answer jack-squat to GeoGass or anyone else to have an opinion.
I enjoy most all forms of motorsport racing but the less regulated (for safety or anything else) it is, the more likely I am to like it.
Most of the RACERS themselves do not like added regulation either. Many would like to return to the older days of very little regulation if you get them to talk 'off the record'.

Yes, I like the Busch Brothers "semi outlaw" brand of racing.
As Harry Hogg said "RUBBIN' IS RACIN' "
Dumbest thing Jack Roush has ever done was getting rid of Kurt Busch from Roush Racing.
Second dumbest thing he did was not offering a full Cup ride to Mark Martin until MARK was ready to retire.

Mark had no problem getting a ride with Hendrick Motorsports, which was a more winning team than Roush anyway. When Mark started running a Toyota (which should not even be allowed in NASCRAP) I had to stop pulling for him. He should have retired if not offered a Ford, Chevy, or Dodge ride.

I HATE how NASCRAP has become a Spec Series. Almost all the innovation by the TEAMS/OEM producers was taken away by the mid 1980's.
I for one would like it to go back to the early 70's rules where Big-Blocks were the norm, almost NOTHING was on the car unless it contributed to SPEED, and factory engineering was constantly trying to wring out more SPEED. Tell the Shyster Attorneys to pound sand. REFUSE to comply with ANY Insurance suggestions and send those clowns packin' too. Run whatcha brung, take the thrill-ride risk or GO HOME.

Doug Sams
05-28-2014, 06:46 PM
Second dumbest thing [Roush] did was not offering a full Cup ride to Mark Martin until MARK was ready to retire.I think that was the other way around. Martin couldn't get out of his contract. I once heard Junior Johnson describe Mark's Roush contract as being way too restrictive. That's why Mark had to run part time for a few seasons after leaving Roush before getting a full time ride at Hendrick. There were way too many strings attached in the Roush contract.

Johnson had apparently tried to engage Mark a few years earlier and found that Roush had him hog tied at that time. I think Mark thought he had a better chance of winning with another team and wanted out, but couldn't get free of his contract.

Frankly, after seeing him get 2nd place in the Cup series 4 times, I don't think his problem was who he was driving for; it was him failing to lay a bumper on a few guys at opportune times. He was too clean for his own good, I think.

Doug

.

A Fish Named Wallyum
05-28-2014, 07:12 PM
I think that was the other way around. Martin couldn't get out of his contract. I once heard Junior Johnson describe Mark's Roush contract as being way too restrictive. That's why Mark had to run part time for a few seasons after leaving Roush before getting a full time ride at Hendrick. There were way too many strings attached in the Roush contract.

Johnson had apparently tried to engage Mark a few years earlier and found that Roush had him hog tied at that time. I think Mark thought he had a better chance of winning with another team and wanted out, but couldn't get free of his contract.

Frankly, after seeing him get 2nd place in the Cup series 4 times, I don't think his problem was who he was driving for; it was him failing to lay a bumper on a few guys at opportune times. He was too clean for his own good, I think.

Doug

.
He also suffered because of the kid glove way that NASCAR treated Earnhardt. One of his second place points finishes came in 1990 during a season where he was penalized for a spacer being bolted in place between the carb and manifold instead of being welded. He was penalized 46 points. In an October race Earnhardt left the pit box with the left side wheels not bolted in place and the tires fell off as he pulled out onto pit road. After the inevitable sep, his crew ran down with a jack, got the car up, and tightened the wheels right in the pit lane despite being warned not to do it. NASCAR looked the other way and Dale won the championship by 20 points, give or take six. Dale was a great driver, but he wouldn't have been quite as dominant if NASCAR didn't have Dale rules and everyone else rules.

ghrocketman
05-28-2014, 09:13 PM
Agree that Mark Martin ran way too clean.
He was my favorite driver for years, but the one fault he had was not being willing to run someone into the wall to win.

Doug Sams
05-28-2014, 09:39 PM
He also suffered because of the kid glove way that NASCAR treated Earnhardt. One of his second place points finishes came in 1990 during a season where he was penalized for a spacer being bolted in place between the carb and manifold instead of being welded. He was penalized 46 points. In an October race Earnhardt left the pit box with the left side wheels not bolted in place and the tires fell off as he pulled out onto pit road. After the inevitable sep, his crew ran down with a jack, got the car up, and tightened the wheels right in the pit lane despite being warned not to do it. NASCAR looked the other way and Dale won the championship by 20 points, give or take six. Dale was a great driver, but he wouldn't have been quite as dominant if NASCAR didn't have Dale rules and everyone else rules.I remember the manifold thing. It was bullsh! Keep in mind, one official OK'd it pre-race (IIRC) but then another official flagged in the post-race inspection.

As for NASCAR over-protecting Earnhardt, that's a good example of the fine line I was talking about regarding the league needing to leverage its stars (to sell tickets) without compromising the league. It's a difficult line to walk.

As many times as I cursed him, I still cheered for him, too :)

Doug

.

Doug Sams
05-28-2014, 09:43 PM
I wrote: There were way too many strings attached in the Roush contract.Despite me ragging on Roush, he's still one of my heroes. He has a physics degree from Berea College in Eastern Kentucky, and he's parlayed that into a Detroit powerhouse of automotive engineering. I'd be proud to work for him.

Doug

.

Doug Sams
05-28-2014, 10:01 PM
Agree that Mark Martin ran way too clean.
He was my favorite driver for years, but the one fault he had was not being willing to run someone into the wall to win.We were big Martin fans, too, along with Little Al. My wife's dad was a Valvoline exec, so we were obliged to cheer for whoever they were sponsoring :) Fortunately, they sponsored some very competitive teams back then :)

Doug

.

Doug Sams
05-28-2014, 10:07 PM
I always like the "Show us your *its" signs in the infield. Especially when they do!! :DAt the southern race tracks, they're more genteel. At Daytona, the sign said, "Uncover those rascals" :D:D

Doug

.

A Fish Named Wallyum
05-28-2014, 10:22 PM
We were big Martin fans, too, along with Little Al. My wife's dad was a Valvoline exec, so we were obliged to cheer for whoever they were sponsoring :) Fortunately, they sponsored some very competitive teams back then :)

Doug

.
We were cutting through Indianapolis on the way to one of the early Brickyard races. As we passed in front of a hotel, some clown in an SUV pulled out in front of me, and the SUV behind him tried the same thing. I didn't stop and the SUV had to stand on the brakes at the last second, signalling his displeasure with his horn. Within seconds we were flying along at 70mph and got passed on the left by a trooper on a motorcycle. Right about then I looked up at the front of the caravan and noticed that we were being led by a Mark Martin Valvoline #6 car, obviously a detuned replica, but still nice and loud. We had stumbled into the Valvoline corporate caravan and were getting a free police escort into the track. My brother and our two friends were freaking a little, thinking we were going to get in trouble. One guy asked when I was going to get out of line. "When they shoot out my tires," was my answer. They took us all the way to a lot across the street from the speedway, where I made a u-turn. We went back under the trestle and found an auto parts store that was selling parking places for $10. By that time we had long since started bringing our own food and beer. We usually parked in someones yard in Speedway, then walked a couple of miles to the track. Not this year. We were no more than a couple of hundred yards from a gate. I'd always been a Mark Martin fan, but after that I was a BIG Mark Martin fan. He's never done anything to dissuade me of the opinion that he's a first-class guy. :cool:

Doug Sams
05-28-2014, 10:43 PM
We were cutting through Indianapolis on the way to one of the early Brickyard races. As we passed in front of a hotel, some clown in an SUV pulled out in front of me, and the SUV behind him tried the same thing. I didn't stop and the SUV had to stand on the brakes at the last second, signalling his displeasure with his horn. Within seconds we were flying along at 70mph and got passed on the left by a trooper on a motorcycle. Right about then I looked up at the front of the caravan and noticed that we were being led by a Mark Martin Valvoline #6 car, obviously a detuned replica, but still nice and loud. We had stumbled into the Valvoline corporate caravan and were getting a free police escort into the track. My brother and our two friends were freaking a little, thinking we were going to get in trouble. One guy asked when I was going to get out of line. "When they shoot out my tires," was my answer. They took us all the way to a lot across the street from the speedway, where I made a u-turn. We went back under the trestle and found an auto parts store that was selling parking places for $10. By that time we had long since started bringing our own food and beer. We usually parked in someones yard in Speedway, then walked a couple of miles to the track. Not this year. We were no more than a couple of hundred yards from a gate. I'd always been a Mark Martin fan, but after that I was a BIG Mark Martin fan. He's never done anything to dissuade me of the opinion that he's a first-class guy. :cool:My last trip to the speedway was the inaugural Brickyard 400 back in 1994. We stayed at a hotel on the southwest side of town, drove west to the airport where we parked and caught a bus that dropped us off in a neighborhood across the street from the track where we had a 10 minute walk to get in. Jeff Gordon won. I remember on the bus leaving that lots of the southerners who'd come up for the race were griping they wouldn't come back. They were used to the high banked tracks in the south where a decent seat gives a view of nearly the entire track. A good seat at Indy might give you half the track, but, with the flat track and built-up infield, there's no seeing across to the other side. I understood completely what they were saying, but I kept thinking to myself, "Yeah, but this is Indy!"

I've been in that police-escorted caravan twice, for the 85 and 86 500's. But it's still a 3-hour jam getting out of there after the race. Daytona's not any better.
...
Bobby Rahal won it my first time there. (That's when I met General Yeager.) I was amused to learn that, in the south, early in his career, fans called him Bobby Ray. Seems they thought his name was Bobby Ray Hall :)

Doug

.

A Fish Named Wallyum
05-28-2014, 10:54 PM
My last trip to the speedway was the inaugural Brickyard 400 back in 1994. We stayed at a hotel on the southwest side of town, drove west to the airport where we parked and caught a bus that dropped us off in a neighborhood across the street from the track where we had a 10 minute walk to get in. Jeff Gordon won. I remember on the bus leaving that lots of the southerners who'd come up for the race were griping they wouldn't come back. They were used to the high banked tracks in the south where a decent seat gives a view of nearly the entire track. A good seat at Indy might give you half the track, but, with the flat track and built-up infield, there's no seeing across to the other side. I understood completely what they were saying, but I kept thinking to myself, "Yeah, but this is Indy!"

I've been in that police-escorted caravan twice, for the 85 and 86 500's. But it's still a 3-hour jam getting out of there after the race. Daytona's not any better.
...
Bobby Rahal won it my first time there. (That's when I met General Yeager.) I was amused to learn that, in the south, early in his career, fans called him Bobby Ray. Seems they thought his name was Bobby Ray Hall :)

Doug

.
So, you've been to Indy three times and it just happens to be for three races that I attended? I had turn two tickets for the first Brickyard, and saw Danny "Spin & Win" Sullivan (the spin happened right in front of us,) in 1985 and Bobby Ray Hall :rolleyes: in 1986, both from the infield. Drank all night before the 1985 race, and we were sitting in our seats trying to keep the buzz rolling when one of the SUYTs guys came along. There were two ladies sunning themselves just under us, and he approached them. The hot blond looked up at him and went back to her tanning. Her hefty friend was more receptive, and pulled her top down for him. One went left, one went right, like two bags of water. I very nearly blew my groceries. From then on I ignored the SUYTs guys. :D

Doug Sams
05-28-2014, 10:57 PM
I HATE how NASCRAP has become a Spec Series. Almost all the innovation by the TEAMS/OEM producers was taken away by the mid 1980's.
I for one would like it to go back to the early 70's rules where Big-Blocks were the norm, almost NOTHING was on the car unless it contributed to SPEED, and factory engineering was constantly trying to wring out more SPEED. Tell the Shyster Attorneys to pound sand. REFUSE to comply with ANY Insurance suggestions and send those clowns packin' too. Run whatcha brung, take the thrill-ride risk or GO HOME.Big blocks could be fun. But I understand the challenge of keeping the races entertaining for the fans. It's not any fun when the same teams dominate and stink up the show. I remember one year where Penske cars won 15 of 16 CART races, and the 16th race was won by Pat Patrick's team running Penske equipment. Boring, like F1 has been too many times.

Anyway, back in the day, NASCAR had multiple formulas for each allowed car maker depending on the engine - eg, Chevelles with small blocks and Impalas with big blocks. They were constantly having to tweak the rules. It was unmanageable. In the 70's or early 80's, they simplified things to a single displacement (358 in^3) and 3500 pounds. But they still had to deal with policing aerodynamics.

That said, I agree that the car of tomorrow was too much like a spec car, and resulted in too much parity. It's bad enough the cars are all bunched up at the restrictor plate tracks, but with the parity, they're all bunched up at too many tracks!

Doug

.

Doug Sams
05-28-2014, 11:03 PM
So, you've been to Indy three times and it just happens to be for three races that I attended? I had turn two tickets for the first Brickyard, and saw Danny "Spin & Win" Sullivan (the spin happened right in front of us,) in 1985 and Bobby Ray Hall :rolleyes: in 1986, both from the infield. Drank all night before the 1985 race, and we were sitting in our seats trying to keep the buzz rolling when one of the SUYTs guys came along. There were two ladies sunning themselves just under us, and he approached them. The hot blond looked up at him and went back to her tanning. Her hefty friend was more receptive, and pulled her top down for him. One went left, one went right, like two bags of water. I very nearly blew my groceries. From then on I ignored the SUYTs guys. :DMy bad - I was there in 86 and 87 - Bobby Ray and Big Al. But I do remember Sullivan's spin and win (in a Penske car, too).

I never spent much time in the infield, but I wished I could have. I'm sure it's a better fit for my redneck personality than the suites in turn 2.

Doug

.

A Fish Named Wallyum
05-28-2014, 11:15 PM
My bad - I was there in 86 and 87 - Bobby Ray and Big Al. But I do remember Sullivan's spin and win (in a Penske car, too).

I never spent much time in the infield, but I wished I could have. I'm sure it's a better fit for my redneck personality than the suites in turn 2.

Doug

.
My last Brickyard was the Goodyear-fail year where the tires lasted less than 20 laps. We were in the turn 2 suites.
My favorite race was the year that Derrick Cope was busting ass to get out of the pits before the field passed and got his tires into the grass. He shot across into the wall in front of us, collecting Michael Waltrip in the process. Michael had a good car that day, and it KILLED it. The section next to us was full of yellow-shirted Penzoil people, so it was doubly bad for them. He went in and had some repairs done, and eventually came out looking like a dirt modified car. I have pics somewhere. Almost all of the sheet metal was bare with a red "30" spray painted on the side. He spent a lot of time going in and out of the pits the rest of the day, and whenever he'd pass our sections, he'd drop it into neutral and rev that engine for all it was worth. Our sections would just go nuts. Michael made a TON of fans that day. Cope, not so much. :rolleyes:

tmacklin
05-29-2014, 09:43 AM
Here ya go, GH. An event taylored to your specifications.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qFRyKCqf1M

BYOB

ghrocketman
05-29-2014, 01:16 PM
Wrong-O, tmacklin. Mudbogs and monstur-truxx I find to be idiotic. The ONLY dirt racing I like is Outdoor MX and Indoor SX.

NHRA used to be 'almost' run-whatcha-brung with just a CID limit in the upper classes, but even that is no more. WAYY TOO MUCH tech/safety inspection. LEAVE IT OUTLAW.

tmacklin
05-29-2014, 01:35 PM
Wrong-O, tmacklin. Mudbogs and monstur-truxx I find to be idiotic. The ONLY dirt racing I like is Outdoor MX and Indoor SX.

NHRA used to be 'almost' run-whatcha-brung with just a CID limit in the upper classes, but even that is no more. WAYY TOO MUCH tech/safety inspection. LEAVE IT OUTLAW.

Sometimes it's good to be wrong. For awhile there I thought you really believed all your B.S.

Who knew?

ghrocketman
05-29-2014, 02:27 PM
LOL. I like 'Stirring the bees nest' obviously. I know most of you on here don't know when I'm kidding and not.

ghrocketman
03-27-2015, 01:34 PM
I think there should be a Championship MAILBOX BASEBALL Racing League.
Each car carries a passenger that has to SMASH a Mailbox with a Baseball Bat every 5 laps in a special lane parallel to the pit lane, that OF COURSE has NO speed limit.
That thar would be ENTERTAINMENT.
Add a DELIBERATE DESTRUCTO factor and the entertainment value increases exponentially.