Citation / Cobra rocketry question

[SaturnV]

Anybody remember the Citation line of rockets that was brought out by Estes (I think). What was the deal with that? Was it supposed to be a different line of rockets? I remember my brother and I bought some Citation marked engines probably back in the mid to late 70's . The first one we tried literally blew up the rocket on the pad. :( Stunned, we loaded another rocket and had the same result. We wound up poking a hole in the ground and would stick the engine , nozzle up, in the hole, and ignite it to see what would happen. If I recall only 1 fired as it should, the rest blew up. We were kind of broke back then so we probably only bought a couple of packs of engines, so i am assuming 1 out of the 6 worked, at a cost of 2 destroyed rockets. Anyway I was wondering what that citation name was about. Was it Estes or some other company?? In the same vein, I just bought some Estes mini engines that are marked Estes Cobra. What is up with all these different names of Estes products.

[Rocketking]

As I recall, the Citation kits were all boxed. No explanation (that I recall) was ever given, but this was more of the same 'flash' style marketing that 'E' has tried and failed at since Vern left the fold. I can't speak for the engines, never having used them.

Estes keeps trying to do things diferent, and keeps falling in the same holes... 'E2X' and 'Cobra' means NOTHING if the product dependability isn't there.

Glen A.
NAR 26298 L1

[CPMcGraw]

Anybody remember the Citation line of rockets that was brought out by Estes (I think). What was the deal with that?

I think we had a similar discussion either here or over on OldRockets some time back, and the consensus was this was an early Estes' attempt to break into the large retail department store market. Back in the late 1960's and into the early 1970's, you had Sears, Montgomery Ward, J. C. Penny's, and National Bellas Hess covering the country, with Kress eventually becomming K-Mart. The opportunity for reaching the mass market was there for the taking. Estes was trying to make the product more "consumer friendly".

In the same vein, I just bought some Estes mini engines that are marked Estes Cobra. What is up with all these different names of Estes products.

Probably more of an attempt to "spice up" the product line with gimmickery, rather than with substance, to boost sales. This is Estes' biggest weakness. Those motors were all pressed on the same machines as the ones before, and the ones that have come afterward...

[Phred]

I agree. But remember, this was not just plain old ESTES. ESTES was now owned by the DAMON corp, and was looking for bigger sales. I always believed that the CITATION LINE was the DAMON/ESTES first attempt to broaden model rocketry by making it 'POP'. Not only were Citation items boxed in order to fit on Toy/Hobby dept shelves, the motor numbering was simplified, and wild 'POP' decals were added. Parts were chromed, plastic nosecones were molded in color and needed no painting. In earliest versions, the motors came with not only the starter sets, but also with the model kits themselves.

I guess this did not succeed, as I never saw boxed Citation kits 'back in the old days'.

Motor were labelled 'COBRA' in the 1990s for the same reason rockets were labeled 'ASTRON' in the 1960s: to provide some sort of marketable name. Perhaps this was in response to QUEST's appearence in the early 1990s.

Fred

[Ltvscout]

In earliest versions, the motors came with not only the starter sets, but also with the model kits themselves.
Hmmm. I didn't know motors came with the original Citation kits. I have the motors in my original Citation Quasar Starter Set.

[Phred]

Oh yeah... and Citation kits, in the original box, go for some BIG bucks vs the same lit, but bagged!!

Ph

[Phred]

Most boxed Ciatation kits have a sticker over the side panel that says the motors are included. I have a boxed, copper colored plastic nosed BOMARC without the sticker, WITH the motors!

Ph





Quote:
Originally Posted by excelsior_rocketry
In earliest versions, the motors came with not only the starter sets, but also with the model kits themselves.


Hmmm. I didn't know motors came with the original Citation kits. I have the motors in my original Citation Quasar Starter Set.

[Ltvscout]

Most boxed Ciatation kits have a sticker over the side panel that says the motors are included. I have a boxed, copper colored plastic nosed BOMARC without the sticker, WITH the motors!
Ah, so that's what that sticker is for! ;)

I'll give ya $20 for that Bomarc. :D

[Phred]

: - )

I am mostly a builder, not a collector. I collect only a few things: Goonys (of course), Citation kits and accessories, vintage motors, and Canaroc stuff.

I am so loony that I have collected both the copper colored vacu-form noseconed boxed Citation Bomarc, and the not much later hollow balsa noseconed boxed Citation Bomarc....


My wife would kill me if she found out whjat I paid for them....

Ph

[Royatl]

Anybody remember the Citation line of rockets that was brought out by Estes (I think). What was the deal with that? Was it supposed to be a different line of rockets? I remember my brother and I bought some Citation marked engines probably back in the mid to late 70's . The first one we tried literally blew up the rocket on the pad. :( Stunned, we loaded another rocket and had the same result. We wound up poking a hole in the ground and would stick the engine , nozzle up, in the hole, and ignite it to see what would happen. If I recall only 1 fired as it should, the rest blew up. We were kind of broke back then so we probably only bought a couple of packs of engines, so i am assuming 1 out of the 6 worked, at a cost of 2 destroyed rockets. Anyway I was wondering what that citation name was about. Was it Estes or some other company?? In the same vein, I just bought some Estes mini engines that are marked Estes Cobra. What is up with all these different names of Estes products.


Citation was indeed a separate line of rockets intended to be sold in department stores. Estes was getting some pressure from new market entrant MPC who sold boxed kits into the same stores that sold their plastic model kits. It was only natural that Estes would want to get into those same stores, and those stores would not put up with bagged kits. So a separate line was created. The rockets in the line were generally more colorful than previous Estes models, and the engine codes were simplified for the presumably less sophisticated department store customer.

http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/catalogs/citation71/71citcat.html

It should be noted that MPC also introduced blister pack packaging to rocketry, which Estes eventually went to many years later. Before that, Estes' retail packaging for their motor was the same ol' blue mailing tube we got in our mail boxes. They eventually switched to the "diamond" tube, that was slightly more retailer-friendly (Retail Centuri motors, and the Estes Citation motors, were sold in boxes).

You probably got some motors that had been thermal-cycled. We didn't understand that phenomena fully back then.

As to 'Cobra,' yes, that was Estes' new management at the time (early 90's) trying to hitch onto the testosterone ride that was the big R/C car scene. One thing you should understand is that Barry Tunick (who became the manager of Estes back then, and owns the company now) was a big-wig at Hasbro, and brought a lot of those marketing tendencies into Estes.

[dtomko]

I had the orginal boxed Bomarc (the gliding one) and Starship Vega back then. Both had two motors included. That was only for a short time, however, maybe not even a full year.

I remember getting the separate Citation catalog in the mail from Estes. I couldn't figure out what they were doing. It seemed then that Estes was trying an "upscale" brand or something. I didn't know about the department store angle. The motor coding- B4, C6 - was confusing. My motors worked fine.

All the Citation designs are really cool. The original gliding Bomarc was awesome. Mine even glided - a little!

Drew

[SaturnV]

Wow! I figured you guys would know. Thanks. I appreciate the info. I remember the blue mailing tubes, still have one somewhere with a 1968 postmark on it, along with my last "S" engine. I only remember the blue diamond packaging from the mini-brute engines. Still have one unopened in the plastic wrapper (A3-0T). thanks again guys.

[ghrocketman]

A3-0T !!!!!
Now that's an engine we need back, along with the 1/2A3-0T.

[Doug Sams]

A3-0T !!!!!
Now that's an engine we need back, along with the 1/2A3-0T.I'd like to have it, too, but I'd prefer a 1/2A with heavier lift capability. If possible, both would be good, but if a choice had to be made, I'd like to see a 1/2A10. Something like the A10-xT, but with a much shorter tail.

http://home.flash.net/~samily/stuff/A10-vs-HA3-2.gif

Low thrust, long burn motors can be fun, but have limited use. You can always fly light birds on fast burn motors, but not vice versa. Having a 1/2A10 booster could make for some fun staging on small fields :)

I have (what else?) a 3-stage Midget I fly using an A10-0T to 1/2A3-0T to 1/2A3-4T combo. But a 1/2A10 could be used on something like a Farside on a small field.


Doug

[Initiator001]

Here's a picture of the Estes Citation motor packaging.

Bob

[CPMcGraw]

Here's a picture of the Estes Citation motor packaging.

Bob

What's really interesting is the designation of the A3 motors -- the Citation catalog lists the A3 as being equal to an A7-3, not an A8-3.

The Citation line-up:

A3 = A7-3
B2 = B6-2
B4 = B6-4
C3 = C6-3
C5 = C6-5

[rokitflite]

I've been trying to get an unopened Citation Quasar for ages :mad: .

[Ltvscout]

I've been trying to get an unopened Citation Quasar for ages :mad: .
Ya, I don't have any "sealed" Quasar's either. All of my boxes have the plastic torn off.

It's one of my favorites because I had one as a kid. When I was in a rocket club around '72 we had a big launch at a park down by Lake Michigan. The newspaper came out and took a photo of my Quasar and another guy's Quasar taking off in a drag race. I don't know whatever became of my original kit.

[Quasar]

I still have the box, launch pad, and launch controller that I bought in 1972. Alas, I lost the Quasar on a C6-5 flight when I forgot the recovery wadding. I saw it go up, but never saw it come down. Fortunately, I picked up an unopened chrome Quasar from a Citation starter kit several years ago and I'm going to go ahead and build it.

Here's a pic. It's all a little worse for wear from all the trips to the launch sites.

http://webpages.charter.net/michaelsfields/Citation2.jpg

Mike Fields

[Ltvscout]

I still have the box, launch pad, and launch controller that I bought in 1972. Alas, I lost the Quasar on a C6-5 flight when I forgot the recovery wadding. I saw it go up, but never saw it come down. Fortunately, I picked up an unopened chrome Quasar from a Citation starter kit several years ago and I'm going to go ahead and build it.
I always wondered why they didn't chrome the tilt assembly as well on the pad.

[Phred]

I was digging though my Citation stuff last night, and I see I have a chrome Quasar that is complete except it is missing the chrome nosecone.

Does anyone have a chromed Quasar nosecone in their partsbox I could buy... or trade for decals?

Phred

[Quasar]

I was digging though my Citation stuff last night, and I see I have a chrome Quasar that is complete except it is missing the chrome nosecone.

Does anyone have a chromed Quasar nosecone in their partsbox I could buy... or trade for decals?

Phred

If you can't find an original, you may want to consider having an Alpha III nose chromed. The folks at Chrome Tech USA could probably do it. I haven't done business with them, but I do know that they've been around a while.

Chrome Tech USA (http://www.chrometechusa.com/)

Mike Fields

[Phred]

I have contacted Chrome Tech in the past. It would cost $40-50 to chrome a fin unit and cone!

PH

[CPMcGraw]

If you can't find an original, you may want to consider having an Alpha III nose chromed. The folks at Chrome Tech USA could probably do it. I haven't done business with them, but I do know that they've been around a while.

Chrome Tech USA (http://www.chrometechusa.com/)

Mike Fields

Try contacting a local jeweler. Many, if not most, know how to electroplate items. Plastic can be electroplated, but it has to be "painted" first with a special coating to make it conductive. The paint isn't cheap. Neither are the electrodes used to supply the chrome. A quote of $40 sounds about right, if maybe low.

A can of Plasticote Chrome is a lot less expensive, and actually produces a good result if care is taken...

[Initiator001]

In earliest versions, the motors came with not only the starter sets, but also with the model kits themselves.


Fred

Except out here in California. The Citation kits came without motors and there was a special sticker over the picture of the motors on the side of the box. :(

This was before the change in the fireworks code. Back then, you had to have a permit to buy ANY model rocket motors and they had to be purchased by an adult.

Bob

[Quasar]

I have contacted Chrome Tech in the past. It would cost $40-50 to chrome a fin unit and cone!

PH

That makes no sense. You can buy a whole Chrome Dome kit for less than $10. I realize there's an economy-of-scale thing going on with production rocket kits, but that's a HUGE cost difference. Maybe Chrome Tech needs to look at their efficiency.

Mike Fields

[Phred]

Chrome Tech is a "Fred in the shed" type of operation, much like my own decal company. I have dealt with them for years, and his quality is excellent. His 'bread and butter' is the rechroming of model car bumpers from old kits, and a model rocket nosecon or tailcone is a relatively gigantic part to chrome compared to his regular fare. Basically I got the impression that his quote had the "I do not want to do this job, but I will if you pay through the nose for it" sort of ring to it....

Oh well.

That is why I am now searching for a forlorn Quasar nosecone.....

Fred

[Mark II]

Citation was indeed a separate line of rockets intended to be sold in department stores. Estes was getting some pressure from new market entrant MPC who sold boxed kits into the same stores that sold their plastic model kits. It was only natural that Estes would want to get into those same stores, and those stores would not put up with bagged kits. So a separate line was created. The rockets in the line were generally more colorful than previous Estes models, and the engine codes were simplified for the presumably less sophisticated department store customer.

http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/catalogs/citation71/71citcat.html

It should be noted that MPC also introduced blister pack packaging to rocketry, which Estes eventually went to many years later. Before that, Estes' retail packaging for their motor was the same ol' blue mailing tube we got in our mail boxes. They eventually switched to the "diamond" tube, that was slightly more retailer-friendly (Retail Centuri motors, and the Estes Citation motors, were sold in boxes).


When I look at the Citation catalog and the pictures of the boxed kits, the first thing that comes to my mind is "special holiday gift-giving packaging." That impression is strengthened by the fact that they were distributed to department stores. (I don't know, they probably found their way onto the shelves of big toy stores like FAO Schwartz, too.) And then, the fact that they only had a short run suggests to me that they were put together for one holiday season, maybe two. The silver/gold/black theme in the catalog, packaging and even on some of the rockets themselves also suggests Christmas/Hannukah. And then there is the fact that they were put together in all-in-one packages, similar to the way that starter sets are packaged today. The simplified labeling also fits this scenario; the labeling isn't for the intended recipient - it is for the parent/gift giver who is buying the package with the intention of making it a gift. Such marketing techniques are quite common - you see many producers put out boxed sets of their products every year for gift-giving. They do this to make the product look appealing in the store shelves, to make it easy to wrap (which adds another element to the product's appeal to a buyer) and to make it look impressive when it is unwrapped. It is not unusual for a manufacturer of toys/consumer goods/etc. to mount a big campaign like the Citation line for just one holiday season; such companies plan their whole marketing year around that one quarter. One successful holiday season has a huge impact on such a company's bottom line for the entire year, and makes it more attractive to investors in the following year. The fact that the Citation line came and went so fast may have been entirely deliberate.

Mark Kulka

[Initiator001]

The Estes Citation line (Along with the Centuri Stellar series) were an attempt to distribute/sell model rockets through more mainstream channels. This required the use of more colorful packaging.

Had the mainstream department store sales of the Citation line been successful, it would have continued and had additional products added to the line (Probably ;) ).

It was an idea that never caught on. The remaining kit parts were repackaged in bags and the kits sold through the standard hobby channels for many years. The kits did see changes in colors and components until each one was discontinued.

While they definately would have made a nice Christmas present, I think Damon would have been happy if the kits sold in even half the quantity they were hoping! :D

Bob

[Mark II]

The Estes Citation line (Along with the Centuri Stellar series) were an attempt to distribute/sell model rockets through more mainstream channels. This required the use of more colorful packaging.

Had the mainstream department store sales of the Citation line been successful, it would have continued and had additional products added to the line (Probably ;) ).

It was an idea that never caught on. The remaining kit parts were repackaged in bags and the kits sold through the standard hobby channels for many years. The kits did see changes in colors and components until each one was discontinued.

While they definately would have made a nice Christmas present, I think Damon would have been happy if the kits sold in even half the quantity they were hoping! :D

Bob

And you know that this is true because...? :confused:

MK

[Ltvscout]

And you know that this is true because...? :confused:

MK
Bob has been in the hobby/business for many moons and knows many of the main players. He was with Enertek with Lee Piester and Bill Stine and designed the Initiator rocket and the fancy launch pad that Aerotech now sells. Enertek never came to fruition and sold out to Aerotech. I'm sure Bob will correct me if I misstated anything. ;)

[Phred]

One other item to consider: In 1971-2, MPC (A major plastic kit model manufacturer with a complete set of retail contacts.) issued Boxed model rocket sets. ESTES/Damon May have looked at the Citation line as a 'must do' in order to compete, or at least a 'well, if MPC can do it, so can ESTES'.

Just speculation of course...

BTW: MPC's foray into Model rockets only lasted these few years, then they closed the whole rocket division up and sold it back to Myke Berginski of MRI/AVI "fame"

Phred

[Ltvscout]

One other item to consider: In 1971-2, MPC (A major plastic kit model manufacturer with a complete set of retail contacts.) issued Boxed model rocket sets. ESTES/Damon May have looked at the Citation line as a 'must do' in order to compete, or at least a 'well, if MPC can do it, so can ESTES'.

Just speculation of course...

BTW: MPC's foray into Model rockets only lasted these few years, then they closed the whole rocket division up and sold it back to Myke Berginski of MRI/AVI "fame"

Phred
I still have my original MPC RTF "Nike Smoke" that I got around '72 or '73. That thing is pretty indestructible. ;)

[moonzero2]

I remember Estes having a huge sale on rocket engines back then and I ordered a whole bunch and received them packaged in their Citation line of packaging, and wondering what is Citation. Now I know. Thanks. I still have some of those engines in the Citation packaging. They still work well today. Did I say I ordered a whole bunch?

[Mark II]

Bob has been in the hobby/business for many moons and knows many of the main players. He was with Enertek with Lee Piester and Bill Stine and designed the Initiator rocket and the fancy launch pad that Aerotech now sells. Enertek never came to fruition and sold out to Aerotech. I'm sure Bob will correct me if I misstated anything. ;)


Well, OK, I certainly don't have any industry contacts like that. Still, when I look through the Citation catalog at Ninfinger, my mind conjures up images of boxes of silvery Quasars and gold-nosed Bomarcs with bows on them, sitting (along with the cheap telescopes, microscopes and chemistry sets) on display tables at Christmastime in the "science and nature" section of the Toy department of major department stores like Sears, Woolco, etc.

The Citation line was introduced in 1971, which, coincidentally, was the same year that I put my involvement in model rocketry up on the shelf, so to speak (where it stayed for the next 3 decades) while I pursued college and a career. I don't remember ever seeing any of the Citation models, but if I had passed by them in the store back then, I surely would have noticed. And just about the only time that I would have been in a department store during that particular year would have been right around Thanksgiving and Christmas. So even if I don't specifically recall it now, it's possible that I did see them around that time, which may be why I keep getting that mental image now.

Hey, I am certainly not in any position to know if the following scenario is true or not, but it would make sense to me that Damon, having just acquired Estes and Centuri, would want to try to increase the customer base and sales for these products by going beyond simply having them in hobby shops and selling via mail order to trying to get them into the toy sections of major retailers. And, according to stuff that I've read about the industry, toy manufacturers always gear their product introductions and major marketing campaigns to coincide with the holiday shopping season each year. So it would have made sense for Estes/Damon to have launched (sorry for the pun) the Citation line to coincide with the 1971 holiday shopping season. Hence, the peculiar package styling and labeling that was discussed earlier. As I said, I don't know if any of this is indeed what happened and why it did, but it certainly would make perfect sense to me if it did.

It's funny/ironic that although the Citation line itself failed to sell, the effort to retail model rocketry through department stores ultimately did succeed, and is still with us today. It probably makes sense to do so from a business perspective, and it may have insured Estes' survival. From the perspective of hobbyists, though (this one, anyway), it had the unfortunate effect of creating an association of model rockets with children's toys, and the pursuit of model rocketry with playtime. (Some BARs may argue that this last bit is a GOOD thing, though. :) )

DISCLAIMER: The above comments reflect my view only, which means that there is a certain probability that they bear absolutely no connection with reality. :D

Mark K.

[Mark II]

Well, OK, I certainly don't have any industry contacts like that. Still, when I


Well gang, it looks like, once again, I am guilty of overthinking and overanalysing a subject. Maybe I need to get a hobby or something. :o

Mark K.