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TedCochran55409
03-11-2007, 09:35 PM
You may recall that the NAR has a program whereby fliers wishing to fly old motors that are no longer certified can do so, as long as the certain conditions are met (I'll list them in glorious detail at the end of this.)

The program has gone well. 124 motors have been flown, representing 9 manufacturers and 44 different motor types. The failure rate has been about 7%, counting all possible failure modes. More details to come soon.

As of the BoT meeting just concluded, the program has been extended, and we've made participation somewhat easier.

In particular, you can apply to test any number of motors, and you can apply any time. I'll need a week or so (two, if I happen to be on business travel) to check the motor list you send and get you written authorization.

The NAR Board of Trustees intends for this activity to be productive (i.e., to provide valid data on the question of the safety of old motors), but there is no reason why it can not also be fun. We're hoping that Sections will be interested in supporting this activity and will find ways to increase the data collected.

To get involved, you need to send me

• The name and NAR number of the person responsible for conducting the test and reporting on the results,

• The date and place of the test (include a brief description of the field, e.g., "school football field," "25 square miles of desert"),

• An itemized list of motors to be tested (In addition, any data that the proposer can provide on the certification history of the motors proposed for testing will be greatly appreciated!), and

• A statement of agreement to comply with the conditions listed below, and any other conditions that may be attached to the authorization (e.g., safe distances, restrictions on the list of motors to be tested).

Note that only model rocket motors that have not been decertified for safety reasons are eligible for this program.

Under the NAR Safety Code, you may NOT fly decertified motors unless you comply with these rules.

Please help us get some great data, and not mess up what could be the beginning of broader ability to fly. Let's all continue to make sport rocketry safe, educational, and fun!


-------------------------------------

The fine print:


1) Testing will be restricted to those clubs and NAR members, on insured
sites, and at specific times and places, who agree to comply with these conditions.

2) Motors shall have been decertified only due to being out of
production and shall not have been decertified for safety reasons

3) Minimum distances shall be at least doubled, depending on the
characteristics of the vehicle under test. Tests shall not be
conducted when elevated fire hazard conditions are present, and
appropriate firefighting equipment shall be available.

4) All test flights will be conducted with spectators alerted and aware.

5) All test flights shall use a single motor. The sole exception to
this restriction is that black powder booster motors may be staged to
an appropriate, currently certified black powder sustainer motor. No
clustered motors shall be used.

6) The following data shall be provided to the Chair of the
Safety Committee (that would be me )no later than seven days
following the event, for each motor tested, regardless of outcome:

a) Motor designation
b) Date of manufacture and/or motor coding
c) Any available information on storage (e.g., "it's been in my cool,
dry basement for 10 years.")
d) Flight outcome, including timed delay. If the outcome was a failure
motor, details of the failure AND A MESS REPORT shall be submitted.

7) In the event two motors from the same date and of the same type
CATO, no further testing of motors of that date and type shall be
conducted.

Again, motor tests shall not be conducted without specific written authorization, because motors tested under this policy shall be considered to be certified
for the date and location specified in the authorization.


Regards,

Ted Cochran
Chair, NAR Safety Committee

falingtrea
03-11-2007, 10:12 PM
Ted, I have a question about rule number 7. If both CATOs are from the same person's motor stock, couldn't the issue be storage? Maybe if the rule were more specific and changed something like what I have written below, we would collect more useful data.

7) In the event two motors from the same date, of the same type, and from the same motor owner CATO, no further testing of motors of that date and type shall be conducted by that motor owner. In the event that three motors from the same date, of the same type, but from different owners CATO, no further testing of motors of that date and type shall be conducted.

Also, is there any way that some kind of testing can be done on unused motors of the same dat and type to the excessive CATO motors? Like cutting cases open and looking at the grain under a microscope?

Ltvscout
03-12-2007, 08:44 AM
You may recall that the NAR has a program whereby fliers wishing to fly old motors that are no longer certified can do so, as long as the certain conditions are met (I'll list them in glorious detail at the end of this.)

The program has gone well. 124 motors have been flown, representing 9 manufacturers and 44 different motor types. The failure rate has been about 7%, counting all possible failure modes. More details to come soon.

As of the BoT meeting just concluded, the program has been extended, and we've made participation somewhat easier.
Ted,

First off, welcome to YORF!

I'd like to thank you and the BoT for coming up with this program in the first place, and now extending it and making it easier to use. I've been a strong proponent for being able to fly old motors for years. ;)

Is there any chance that you'll allow FSI F-100's to be flown in the program? What about old SilverStreaks?

I'm very interested in seeing the details of how the old motors have fared so far.

TedCochran55409
03-12-2007, 09:01 PM
Ted, I have a question about rule number 7. If both CATOs are from the same person's motor stock, couldn't the issue be storage?

Yes. Rule 7 is intended to stop further carnage on that day, at that launch. Depending on what we can find out about storage, etc., and the willingness of fyers to adopt more stringent conditions, further testing of motors of the same type and lot would be considered. Maybe we'd want to do a static test first, to avoid more damage to rockets.

The intent is to fly these motors safely while learning something about actual performance. We don't want to sponsor a CATO-fest.

TedCochran55409
03-12-2007, 09:06 PM
Ted,

First off, welcome to YORF!

Thanks! I've been a lurker for long enough!


Is there any chance that you'll allow FSI F-100's to be flown in the program? What about old SilverStreaks?


Anything that is a Model Rocket Motor: Under 80 N average thrust AND under 62.5g propellant weight AND under 160 N-sec Total Impuise. As labeled. So Rocketflite 50SS is fine, but RS104 is not.

Bob H
03-12-2007, 09:29 PM
The program has gone well. 124 motors have been flown..... Wow, I can't believe that I flew amost 10% (12)of the old motors. I thought that for sure there would have been more than that.

I guess my success rate was about average.. Out of the 12, only 1 had questionable performance.

We had a few days where the wind was high and I didn't want to risk my Delta with Camroc so I never got to fly the B14-0 boosters.

I'm glad that I will have another chance this season.

TedCochran55409
03-12-2007, 09:29 PM
I'm very interested in seeing the details of how the old motors have fared so far.

Here's a peek:

MFR       Motor     pass  fail
Aerotech     B6-2T     0     1
Aerotech     B6-4T     1     
Aerotech     D21-10    1     
Aerotech     E11-3     1     
Aerotech     E25-4T    2     1
Aerotech     F55-8     1     
Apogee     1/4A3-2T    3     
Apogee      A2-0     2     
Apogee      A3-6T     3     
AVI        D6.1-0    0     1
AVI        E11.8-0   1     
Centuri      1/2A4-5M  1     
Centuri      A4-4M     1     1
Centuri      B14-5     1     
Centuri      B4-3M     2     
Centuri      B4-6      1     
Estes        1/2A6-0S   7     
Estes        1/2A6-4S   3     
Estes        A10-0T    23    1
Estes        A3-0T     15     
Estes        A3-6T     2     
Estes        A5-2      1     
Estes        A5-4S     0     1
Estes        A8-0      2    1
Estes        A8-3      1     
Estes        B14-0     1     
Estes        B14-5     1     
Estes        B4-4      3     
Estes        B4-6      1     
Estes        B6-0      2     
Estes        B6-4      3     
Estes        B8-5      4     
Estes        C4-4      1     
Estes        C5-3      8     
Estes        C6-5      4     
Estes        D13-5     2     
Estes        E11-3     2     
FSI         E60-6     0     1
FSI         F7-6      0     1
MPC        A3-0M     1     
MRC         C6-3     2     
NCR         F62-4     3     
NC          F62-6     1     
Rocketflite      F50-9SS    1

dwmzmm
03-12-2007, 09:44 PM
Ted, welcome aboard! The Centuri B14-5 and FSI F7-6 were mine... :rolleyes:

Doug Sams
03-12-2007, 09:53 PM
I'm very interested in seeing the details of how the old motors have fared so far.I think this is great. I was hoping for round 2. I encourage everyone to pay close attention to the data requested. I didn't fill out my OOP flight cards until after the birds were prepped by which time the date codes were sanded off or taped over on several motors. And of course, when the tape came off, so did the paper with the date on it :( So make sure you use OOP flight cards (with the extra fields) and fill them out while you're prepping.

...

I cato'd one D6.1-0, but I have one left :) The sacrificial OOP motor burner has been repaired and is ready to play Super Dave again :)

Doug

dwmzmm
03-12-2007, 09:57 PM
I think this is great. I was hoping for round 2. I encourage everyone to pay close attention to the data requested. I didn't fill out my OOP flight cards until after the birds were prepped by which time the date codes were sanded off or taped over on several motors. And of course, when the tape came off, so did the paper with the date on it :( So make sure you use OOP flight cards (with the extra fields) and fill them out while you're prepping.

...

I cato'd one D6.1-0, but I have one left :) The sacrificial OOP motor burner has been repaired and is ready to play Super Dave again :)

Doug

Hey, Doug, you've invoked my nickname here!! (Super Dave!!) :mad: :p

Doug Sams
03-12-2007, 10:03 PM
Here's a peek:

MFR Motor pass fail
AVI D6.1-0 0 1
AVI E11.8-0 1
MPC A3-0M 1
Looks like I was the only one to fly AVI or MPC.

Of my two most recent catos - Quest B6-0 and the D6.1-0 above - both used wadding plugs. Could I have packed it too tight so as to cause a cato? I did push it in there quite firmly.

Doug

Doug Sams
03-12-2007, 10:06 PM
Hey, Doug, you've invoked my nickname here!! (Super Dave!!) :mad: :pOne of my favorite gags was when Super Dave Osborne was supposed to hold back a tow truck. As usual, the truck took off before he was ready. It stretched his arms out about 15 feet. I was LMAO!

Doug

ghrocketman
03-13-2007, 08:41 PM
No sponsoring of a CATO-fest ????
Awwww.....c'mon now....a CATO-fest would add some unusual excitement (as long as none of MY rockets are involved) to any rocket meet.
We could call it "RDRS" for REAL DANGEROUS rocket show !
A CATO every third or fourth flight (as would be NORMAL for the old BP Mini-Max Centuri E/F line) would add a real sense of "Early days of NASA" flavor to the experience.

On a serious note, are FSI F100's ok to test or not ?
Almost everyone knows they were NOWHERE near a "100N" average thrust or even "80N"....I think the last time they were tested they actually were around 75N.