First Motors

[Chas Russell]

Okay, sports fans:

Let us say that we are building the Krelvenator (sic) motor machine.

Estes makes motors.

Quest provides motors.

What would you like SEMROC to provide first?

The basic A through E Questest clones?

Shorts? 13mm? Even smaller?

18mm, but some oldies and goodies like the A5-x and B14-x?

Not looking for specific motors, but rather what the group thinks would sell. After all, there is a profit motive involved.

Chas

[Ltvscout]

What would you like SEMROC to provide first?

The basic A through E Questest clones?

Shorts? 13mm? Even smaller?

18mm, but some oldies and goodies like the A5-x and B14-x?

Not looking for specific motors, but rather what the group thinks would sell. After all, there is a profit motive involved.
I would first offer motors that are not currently available from other vendors. A motor that almost everyone that flew rockets in the 60's and 70's wish they still had available today, the mighty B14!!!!

There are others as well such as the A5's, low impulse booster motors for the second stage of three stage rockets such as 1/2A6-0 and A8-0, and 13mm B motors.

I feel these would sell well since no one else makes them currently. Then when people see the quality of the Semroc motors (i.e. good tracking smoke, accurate delays and ejection charges that are just right) they'll then be eager to buy common size motors from Semroc.

18mm shorties would be nice to have, but profit-wise would not be as big of a seller as those listed above. Those would be something to add down the road after the Semroc motor line is established in the hobby.

[Doug Sams]

What would you like SEMROC to provide first?While this is basically a repeat of an earlier thread, I'll gladly repeat myself :)

I say to go for the gaps, do the motors we can't already get. A boosters, preferably high thrust ala an A10-like motor (but better) versus low thrust of an A3. Also, a 1/2A booster, again in a high thrust variant. If they're both done in a T form factor, they can be easily adapted to S and standard 18mm applications, so the NRE is optimized.

B14's and high thrust C's. I think Carl said he could do something like a ~C16 in the standard 18mm size. After that, fast burn 24's such as a D20 or D30 (if possible) as well as an E30 or higher (if possible).

Heck, I'd like to see even larger - F's, G's and H's, but they'd all be high power, due to the propellant mass, and from a business perspective, that'd be a whole lot of extra red tape for everyone to deal with, probably not a hurdle a new business needs.

Doug

[Chas Russell]

Dougie reiterrated:

"While this is basically a repeat of an earlier thread, I'll gladly repeat myself..."

The reason I posed this question is that SEMROC could start to make motors that resemble or equal or surpass current motors. As it is, they are not nation-wide in hobby shops or big box stores, so they have to make a product that stands out and is commercially available and available through mail-order. This is another hoop to jump through.

I am only attempting to spur the discussion and develop a rational first step. The STVD group is advisory group and we can have a wish list several klicks long. But, in a business model what does the hobby/industry need that will make sense?

I am all for the B14's. Some of us would like the short motors to actually fly some old models/clones like they were designed to be flown.

The hard earned dollars that we send to SEMROC can only result in a few new projects. I am sure they will surprise us.

Chas

[Doug Sams]

Some of us would like the short motors to actually fly some old models/clones like they were designed to be flown.Chas and Everyone,

Y'all tell me if I'm missing something. Is there a reluctance to using adaptpers - be they single use or reusable - in conjunction with T motors to make shorties and standard size motors?

For me it's no big deal. I have a 5 gallon bucket of spent motor cases, so it only takes me a few minutes to turn a T into something else. I even cut slots in some spent cases so motor hooks could be added making them re-usable adapters. They were sealed on the ends so that tape could be added for staging (without delaminating the paper when the tape was removed).

So I see the T as being a universal motor case from 1/4A thru A for all T, S and standard uses. What say everyone else?

Doug

[SEL]

I would first offer motors that are not currently available from other vendors. A motor that almost everyone that flew rockets in the 60's and 70's wish they still had available today, the mighty B14!!!!

There are others as well such as the A5's, low impulse booster motors for the second stage of three stage rockets such as 1/2A6-0 and A8-0, and 13mm B motors.

I feel these would sell well since no one else makes them currently. Then when people see the quality of the Semroc motors (i.e. good tracking smoke, accurate delays and ejection charges that are just right) they'll then be eager to buy common size motors from Semroc.

18mm shorties would be nice to have, but profit-wise would not be as big of a seller as those listed above. Those would be something to add down the road after the Semroc motor line is established in the hobby.

I agree - fill in with high impulse and bootsers that are no longer available, as well as maybe some longer burn 18mm's. And shorties.

Sean

[SEL]

I agree - fill in with high impulse and bootsers that are no longer available, as well as maybe some longer burn 18mm's. And shorties.

Sean

I meant *boosters*, although if you think about it......

Sean

[Chas Russell]

Dougie opines:

"Y'all tell me if I'm missing something. Is there a reluctance to using adaptpers - be they single use or reusable - in conjunction with T motors to make shorties and standard size motors?"

Dougie Daddy,

This thread wasn't meant to be about us. What should SEMROC offer to the (unwashed) masses who wouldn't know an adapter from an acorn? My range box has a plethora of adapters. I made a stand for RRR's new P-Chuter Xtreme at NARCON from parts in my range box!
We have to think of the masses first and us as an auxillary. In my humble opinion. If SEMROC can not get a foot in the door with the hobby shop/mail order customer, the market might not be large enough to supply the goodies we desire.

After all, this is all wishful thinking...

Chas

[Pyro Pro]

I agree with filling in some of the gaps left by the other manufacturers. Also, some long-burn/short-burn specialty motors would be nice, for altitude/heavy lifting projects. They'd also do well in parallel staged designs... :cool: :D <back to designing...>

[foose4string]

I would start by filling some of the current gaps. The best place to begin that, is by re-releasing the stuff that Estes dropped but everyone seems to be craving now. A5, B14, C5, boosters, etc. Eventually, I'd love to see Semroc go head to head with the big boys though and offer the standard stuff. If better effects can be added(which has already been talked about) to make them more appealing than the Estes motors, then I don't think they'd have problems selling.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

I'm going to defer to the old guys like Chas and Doug as far as motors from before 1977 because I never flew anything more complicated than B6-4s and C6-5s way back then. I like the ideas of an A8-0 booster making a return, and all the talk about the A5 and B14 has me itching to try somthing like them. One thing I wanted to add was that it might be wise to consider producing something rather pedestrian like a B6-4 or C6-5, just for the comparison shopper. Estes quality control is at a low ebb right now as far as those ejection charges, and I would think that giving something to compare it to might just reel in a segment of the market that's tired of Estes lack of response. They've got the $$$ to stock the Wal-Mart shelves, but you've got us and we've got the ear of the rocketeers who look at this as something more than launching an RTF with the kids every now and then.

[ghrocketman]

The mighty B14 is by far and away at the top of my list.
Second would be some sort of high-thrust port-burning D or E 24mm motor.

[Gus]

If Semroc wants to establish itself with motor-making then it should start with the one killer product proposed by Carl.....ejection charges. These are absolutely needed by every high-power flier and currently unavailable in the format Carl proposed. They solve a significant regulatory problem and, if consistently timed, solve a big reliability problem as well.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

What current motor would the B14 be most like? I'm intrigued.

[Ltvscout]

What current motor would the B14 be most like? I'm intrigued.
Well, they used to have the B8 and then the C5. I don't know of anything currently close to it.

[Eagle3]

Gus is correct. The ejection charge system will draw in a lot of attention regardless of motor selection. As long as you cover the basic needs whether it is available today or not, keep the cost down, and maintain a high percentage of reliability the word will spread. I remember when RMS was introduced. I went to NARAM that year and every vendor was selling them at a nice discount. The reaction was amazing. Everyone was picking up casings and reloads as if they were Cabbage Patch Tickle Me Beanie Babies! I honestly believe folks will see this as the evolution of BP motors. Get on board or get left behind. My .02.....

[Bazookadale]

What current motor would the B14 be most like? I'm intrigued.

It's not like any current motor, that's why we want it! For newbies, the old Estes B14 had a thrust spike of about 7 pounds and burned for just .35seconds

[Chas Russell]

Good stuff on this thread, folks!

Darn, now I am starting to have second thoughts (or maybe it was the second cup of coffee). Anybody here work in marketing?

I would offer that SEMROC ought to offer motors that are like ones on the market to establish a presence. As mentioned, the current producers have had some quality control issue of late and any improvement or new bell or whistle would stand out. In my opinion, bringing out booster motors and the DECAP first might cause a lot of confusion. Perhaps roll it out after the booster motors, A5's, B14's, etc. as a "new generation" of motors. We know that they had worked on them before, but others don't

Again, something like a D5 might be a limited market as it is a different length 18mm motor. By that I mean that they kits and adapters would have to be introduced also. A high thrust D or E that would be the standard 24mm casings would be a lot easier to introduce.

More thoughts?

Chas

[Eagle3]

One of the bonuses for introducing high thrust motors that hasn't been mentioned before (or I missed it) is safety margin. I can think of cases where someone not knowing any better would have been better off using a high thrust motor instead of a low thrust. The rocket could have been too heavy and or the launch rod too short. I love low thrust long burn motors especially in clusters and upper stages, but I've seen land sharks that could have been prevented with a better motor selection.... another .02, I'm up to .04! :D

[DWolman]

I would suggest that we need to keep it focused on ease of adoption - making it easy for customers to choose Semroc motors instead of the other brands.

While having an 18mm BP D motor would be very cool, people would have to build a model specifically to take it because of the longer size of the casing. Same with the possible larger BP E and F motors.

Instead, I would focus on substitutions for existing motors - or unique motors - but definitely in the 18x70mm size. I'd love to see the A8-0 and B14-0 - but it comes down to distribution.

If Semroc is looking to build distribution through retail/hobby stores (which may be required to get enough volume to justify selling motors) then motors to replace existing Estes/Quest make sense, as long as there is a competitive advantage (i.e. price or other feature). This makes is easy for a customer to choose Semroc motors instead of Estes/Quest.

If Semroc is looking to sell through direct mail, then having unique motors (such as the B14) makes more sense - the uniqueness of the motor then becomes the competitive advantage. If through direct mail - there's much less of a reason for a customer to choose a Semroc B6-4 (for example) than an Estes/Quest when the E/Q motors are already available at the local hobby shop and Wal-Mart.

Sorry for the long post - but really excited about seeing the motors come to market!

Thanks

[Doug Sams]

Well, they used to have the B8 and then the C5. I don't know of anything currently close to it.Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. The B8 replaced the B14. The B8 had a pressed cored versus the B14's drilled core, as I understand it. The result was not as much kick, but easier to manufacture.

The C5 was the B8 with more powder on top. Because of the large nozzle (needed for a core burner), once the core burn reduces to a simple flat burn, there's not enough restriction and the thrust is appreciably reduced, hence the low tail. (That's pretty much the same for the A10, too.) While I'd prefer the B14, I'd be happy with a B8.

Basically, I wonder how well 3-stagers flew without them. I've heard of folks (Bob Kaplow, IIRC) who have flown Farsides on 1/2A-1/2A-xxx on ballfields. I guess it's possible on a calm day. And it probably staged on the rod :)

But if you think about it, the A8-0, B6-0 and C6-0 are all kinda wimpy for 1st stage use in anything but the most dainty 3-stagers. Otherwise, it's just gonna crawl off the rod. (This is, btw, where I think the C11-0 fit very well, as a quasi-replacement for the B14. RIP.)

I have flown 3-stagers using A10-0T to A10-0T to xxx, and that works well in small models. But the B14 seems like a necessity for Farsides, et al. Until then, I plan to build my Farside clone with a 24mm 1st stage. C'mon Semroc B14 :)

Doug

[ghrocketman]

There is NOTHING even close to the old B14 available in the 18mm BP arena now.
It had more kick off the pad than anything up to and including the D12.
In booster guise (B14-0) it was GREAT for getting heavy 2/3 stage models off the pad such as the Camroc/Delta combo and the Farside-X with a heavy payload. The B14-5 was also great in a 3 engine cluster for the Astron Ranger, Astron Cobra, and Astron Scrambler....this cluster was equivalent to a 15n-sec D42-5 !!!!
Those fins better have been glued on good ! :D

[Doug Sams]

If Semroc is looking to build distribution through retail/hobby stores (which may be required to get enough volume to justify selling motors) then motors to replace existing Estes/Quest make sense, as long as there is a competitive advantage (i.e. price or other feature). This makes is easy for a customer to choose Semroc motors instead of Estes/Quest. That only works if the new player stays on the fringe and doesn't appear to be a threat. But as soon as he does, history shows that the Alpha male, in this case Estes, will crush threats quickly. The only way startups can withstand this is to have, as you astutely surmise, a competitive advantage - IOW, Semroc develops a manaufacturing breakthrough of some sort.

If they actually can do that, then making and successfully selling mainstream motors in the traditional commercial channels is possible.

Assuming there is no breakthrough, then product differentiation is the key.

I work for a company that 2nd sources lots of IC's. We come to market with many chips after the competition is well established. But we can do it with our low cost production model - we can carve out market share by selling on price.

OTOH, when we bring sole sourced products, we can charge a lot more and pay off our NRE much faster, thus getting to profitibility much faster.

My take is that the devoted rocket modelers may be a small chunk of market, but they all have their checkbooks out ready to buy bulk packs of B14's. That's quick ROI which can then be used to fund an assault on the mainstream.


Doug

[Doug Sams]

I honestly believe folks will see this as the evolution of BP motors. I wholeheartedly agree that these delays are evolutionary. That's obvious to hard core rocketeers.

To the 10-thumb dads, though, the delays need to be pre-assembled. IOW, the differentiated product we think is so kewl must be rendered mundane to be mainstreamed. What I'm saying is that we all see the advantage, but Wal-Mart shoppers won't. For them, it's "undesirable assembly required" :(

I still think it's kewl, but I'm having a hard time seeing a way to leverage it in the mass market.

Doug

[Doug Sams]

Darn, now I am starting to have second thoughts (or maybe it was the second cup of coffee). Chas,

You first asked us what _we_ wanted. "What would you like SEMROC to provide first?" Later, you asked a different question: "What should SEMROC offer to the (unwashed) masses...?"

Selling to the masses requires either a manufacturing breakthrough, a differentiated product that can be leveraged to the mainstream, or lots and lots of capital to outspend the entrenched players. The latter is only done when there is rapid growth potential of the whole market - ie, a new market. The MR market would be considered mature, and hence bad ROI for an attack of capital. This leaves a process breakthrough or leveraging product innovations.

Simply making mainstream motors under a new brandname is a tough marketing strategy. Yes, it has a new brandname, and higher quality. But is that enough difference to be a catalyst for change? Will it overcome the existing paradigms? I already have 1000 motors or so at the house. I don't need any B6-x's or C6-x's - I've got plenty of everything currently or recently available.

I'm like the buyer-planner at Wal-Mart. I already have a source (Estes) for B6-x's and C6-x's. I don't need another source. I need a supplier of complementary products. For example, for a while there, Quest MicroMaxx were at Wal-Mart. My guess is they made sense to Wal-Mart as fitting nicely alongside Estes (without redundancy).

At this time, I don't see any clear plan for displacing Estes. But complementing them makes sense. Hence gap motors. Even that probably won't get them on the shelf at Wal-Mart. But I'll certainly get out my check book for differetiated product.

Doug

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

If Semroc is looking to sell through direct mail, then having unique motors (such as the B14) makes more sense - the uniqueness of the motor then becomes the competitive advantage. If through direct mail - there's much less of a reason for a customer to choose a Semroc B6-4 (for example) than an Estes/Quest when the E/Q motors are already available at the local hobby shop and Wal-Mart.



Very true. I never thought about the possibility of direct mail. In that case, the more unique the product, the better.

[Chas Russell]

Mr. Doug Sams asked:

"You first asked us what _we_ wanted. "What would you like SEMROC to provide first?" Later, you asked a different question: "What should SEMROC offer to the (unwashed) masses...?"

Quite right, Doug. I guess that I was asking the first question as "we" being an advisory body to SEMROC, based on their list of possible motors. The second question was because "we" would be a small, fringe market that could not justify the investment in time, money, blood, sweat, and tears (going down gambling...). What should they produce that would give them a niche, but qualifying market? There have been some great comments here and my only reason for starting this thread was to stimulate discussion so that Carl and Bruce had some inspiration. Not only does the machine have to be successfully developed, but casings, BP, clay, etc. has to be purchased and stored. As we know, the motors will have to "cure" after manufacture to dry out the wet-pressed propellant.

Since we are not privy, and need not be, to the volume of kit sales and the list of SEMROC clients, it is difficult for any of us to judge their potential sales volume. Motors tested and certified by the NAR, a larger advertisement budget...all details.

I apologize for seeing "we" as a flexible parameter.

B14's and shorts....

Chas

[James Pierson]

I would prefer one stop shopping myself. If I am going to buy some B-14's I would also want to buy my most often used B-4, B-6, and C6 in the same purchase. Also the fewer times I put my card online the better ;) .

James Pierson
NAR# 77907

[Doug Sams]

What should they produce that would give them a niche, but qualifying market? Now you're asking the tough questions :)

Let's call them segue motors (seg-way for everyone who missed the segway thread on rmr a few years ago :)

Consider this: In most - nearly all - cases, you can fly a given model on a high thrust motor just as easily as on a medium or low thrust motor. The converse is not necessarily true. A medium sized model might weathercock badly on a B3, and a heavy one may not even get off the rod. But, barring a shred, a light, medium or heavy can fly on a B14.

So, B14's are more flexible than B6's or B3's. Niche rocketeers can put them in their Farsides while mainstream rocketeers can fly them in Astras and Alphas.

A similar argument can be made for just about any impulse range MR motors.

I don't have a crystal clear vision of exactly what will win, but I think the case for high thrust motors makes the most sense.

O/T: Chas, were you sweating pretty good along about 2:15 Saturday afternoon? :)

Doug

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

O/T: Chas, were you sweating pretty good along about 2:15 Saturday afternoon? :)

Doug

A free throw. Just a lousy free throw. I wonder if they had that kid on suicide watch?

[Chas Russell]

O/T: Chas, were you sweating pretty good along about 2:15 Saturday afternoon?

O/T Answer: Yes...yes I was. I was waiting to mow the lawn and thinking how they didn't deserve to win and they get another chance due to a missed free throw. After the game Cindy asked why I wasn't happy about the Buckeyes winning. She didn't see the game. : (

JP had a great comment on getting his B14's and other motors, too. I suspect that we will see that. Haven't read the artcile on the Estes development of Mabel, but I would imagine that Carl and Krew will have improvements over their first machine from way-back-when. The big trick is to make it simple to convert over to other motor and casing types. One advantage to starting fresh.

Chas

[Bob H]

Chas and Everyone,

Y'all tell me if I'm missing something. Is there a reluctance to using adaptpers - be they single use or reusable - in conjunction with T motors to make shorties and standard size motors?...snip.... So I see the T as being a universal motor case from 1/4A thru A for all T, S and standard uses. What say everyone else?

DougThat would be fine with me *IF* there were certified T boosters.

But, Estes used to make the shorties from the standard motors by cutting an inch off the casing after they were loaded . So, if 1/2A6-0 or A8-0 boosters are made in 18mm size, they could be cut to length after the fact. Same with A5-2 or A5-4's.

If its done at the point of manufature, it's OK but if we do it, it's "modifying the motor" and we still can't use them at sanctioned launches.

[Carl@Semroc]

Thanks to all! This is another great thread.

I was camping with the troop this weekend and then recovering from taking two days off! So I am a little late to the party.

We had independently arrived at the consensus opinion that we have to produce engines to fit and fly in our existing kits first. The fewer kits we produce that send our customers to Wal-Mart to get engines, the better we will be. It is painful now to attend an event like Astronomy Days and spend most of the time explaining how they still have to make a trip to Wal-Mart to get parts we don't sell. It is not as bad at a national event like NARAM, but it is really bad a a local event.

The census of engines we recommend for our current and planned kits are:

C6-x 55
B6-x 50
A8-x 43
D12-x 12
E9-x 8
B4-x 6
C11-x 5

So... the 18-70 C6, B6, and A8 have to be first, but the same first crop will also produce:

C5-x
B14-x
A5-x
3/4C19-x
B8-x

in a full range of booster engines as well.

Part of the reason for the low numbers of "T" engines in the census is the poor range of available engines. If the "T" engines were there, we would have had more kits around them. As Doug has said, the B14-x can be flown in many exising designs, but it opens up designs that we would like to see designed around it. As we can get a wider range of engines, the designs are not so limited like they are now. A good example is the Super Kits. They would be a disaster if flown with C6-3 engines, but fly great on C5-3 engines. Almost all two stage rockets will fly better with a B14 or 3/4C19 in the bottom stage.

So this is a case of chicken v. egg. If we can get a lot more eggs, we will have a bigger crop of chickens.

I have read this whole thread twice. There is some great market research in here!

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Thanks to all! This is another great thread.

I was camping with the troop this weekend and then recovering from taking two days off! So I am a little late to the party.

We had independently arrived at the consensus opinion that we have to produce engines to fit and fly in our existing kits first. The fewer kits we produce that send our customers to Wal-Mart to get engines, the better we will be. It is painful now to attend an event like Astronomy Days and spend most of the time explaining how they still have to make a trip to Wal-Mart to get parts we don't sell. It is not as bad at a national event like NARAM, but it is really bad a a local event.

The census of engines we recommend for our current and planned kits are:

C6-x 55
B6-x 50
A8-x 43
D12-x 12
E9-x 8
B4-x 6
C11-x 5

So... the 18-70 C6, B6, and A8 have to be first, but the same first crop will also produce:

C5-x
B14-x
A5-x
3/4C19-x
B8-x

in a full range of booster engines as well.

Part of the reason for the low numbers of "T" engines in the census is the poor range of available engines. If the "T" engines were there, we would have had more kits around them. As Doug has said, the B14-x can be flown in many exising designs, but it opens up designs that we would like to see designed around it. As we can get a wider range of engines, the designs are not so limited like they are now. A good example is the Super Kits. They would be a disaster if flown with C6-3 engines, but fly great on C5-3 engines. Almost all two stage rockets will fly better with a B14 or 3/4C19 in the bottom stage.

So this is a case of chicken v. egg. If we can get a lot more eggs, we will have a bigger crop of chickens.

I have read this whole thread twice. There is some great market research in here!

Cool. I get to be the first one to say "YES!" :cool:
I had to bite my tongue at our last Quark launch. One of my fellow Quarkers was talking about all the cool stuff that's come out of Semroc recently. I kept my comments to "You ain't seen nothing yet." :rolleyes:

[CPMcGraw]

I'll second Bill's enthusiastic endorsement...

This is a good, workable, and flexible range of power.

[foose4string]

I like the fact your willing to take this thing head on Carl! No pussy footin' around, just working away at the competition one bite at a time. I get the impression Semroc ain't foolin' round this time. :cool: If Semroc is to be taken seriously and wants to be on the same playing field as Estes, Quest, or AT, it makes perfect sense to manufacture motors that work with their own kits. If prices are competitive, motors are more reliable(no mystery ejection charges), better effects, then I don't see marketing and sales being a problem. Offering kits (mostly) through direct sales hasn't hurt Semroc thus far, I don't think motors will be an exception. There is actually more competition with selling kits than there is with motors, so I don't foresee a problem. There is a risk just starting out, as there is with anything. Quality, price, and service will outweigh the negative, just as it has in the past.

[Chas Russell]

I know that SEMROC will advertise in Sport Rocketry and Launch magazine. Any thoughts on what other magazines would give the biggest results for the bucks (don't say BANG!)?

Gee, Carl, scouting magazines? Popular Science? Whatelse?

Chas

[Initiator001]

I know that SEMROC will advertise in Sport Rocketry and Launch magazine. Any thoughts on what other magazines would give the biggest results for the bucks (don't say BANG!)?

Gee, Carl, scouting magazines? Popular Science? Whatelse?

Chas

When I was at AeroTech, we had a marketing firm perform a survey to see what magazines our client base was reading and, therefore, where we should be advertising.

Answers: Soldier of Fortune and Playboy.

I kid you not.

Couldn't convince Gary to advertise in either of them! :D

Bob

[CPMcGraw]

I know that SEMROC will advertise in Sport Rocketry and Launch magazine. Any thoughts on what other magazines would give the biggest results for the bucks (don't say BANG!)?

Gee, Carl, scouting magazines? Popular Science? Whatelse?

Chas

Here's a thought: Rocketry kinda goes hand-in-hand with computers, right? How about engineering mags, like Circuit Cellar Ink?

[Doug Sams]

When I was at AeroTech, we had a marketing firm perform a survey to see what magazines our client base was reading and, therefore, where we should be advertising.

Answers: Soldier of Fortune and Playboy.

I kid you not.

Couldn't convince Gary to advertise in either of them! :D I bet you couldn't get him to pay for any more outside market research after that, either :)

When the data falls so far away from the expected range, it's easy to reject it (even if it's correct).

Doug

[James Pierson]

Just thinking of what else we find in our local hobby shops that seem to doninate the shelf space. R/C magazines both airplane and Cars. I have always enjoyed Air and Space Smithsonian as well. Other model builder magazines as well. Shoot maybe even kite flying magazines :rolleyes: .

James Pierson
NAR# 77907

[Mark II]

Just thinking of what else we find in our local hobby shops that seem to doninate the shelf space. R/C magazines both airplane and Cars. I have always enjoyed Air and Space Smithsonian as well. Other model builder magazines as well. Shoot maybe even kite flying magazines :rolleyes: .

James Pierson
NAR# 77907

Fine Scale Modeler, for example?

Ads in Popular Science and Discovery might also work.

Mark K.