Estes Taser Twin

[Rob Campbell]

I just noticed this kit on the Estes website. It looks like a more streamlined version of the Apogee II. The booster looks very similar to the Apogee booster and the upper stage is more Alpha-esque than the Ranger/Bertha-esque upper stage of the Apogee.

Has anyone flown one yet? I'm very tempted to get one.


Rob


http://www.estesrockets.com/003201-taser-twintm

[sandman]

Rob, it's much cheaper from AC Supply.

http://www.acsupplyco.com/estes/taser_twin.htm

At that price you can buy two! :)

[hcmbanjo]

I just noticed this kit on the Estes website. It looks like a more streamlined version of the Apogee II. The booster looks very similar to the Apogee booster and the upper stage is more Alpha-esque than the Ranger/Bertha-esque upper stage of the Apogee.


I saw the upper stage and was reminded of the old Estes Sky Hook.

[Rob Campbell]

I saw the upper stage and was reminded of the old Estes Sky Hook.
Looking closer at the fin, it does appear to have that Sky Hook shape. I also watched the video and the staging is old school with the motors taped together and friction fit into the mounts. It looks like a cool rocket and at least a partial return to the Golden Age of Model Rocketry.

[Rob Campbell]

Rob, it's much cheaper from AC Supply.

http://www.acsupplyco.com/estes/taser_twin.htm

At that price you can buy two! :)

That's a killer price! Thanks for the tip.

[Rich Holmes]

Given that at just one club launch last year, I think there were three Taser Twins and of those one sustainer core sampled (because the owner got the motors mixed up) and two sustainers were never seen again, buying two might be a good idea.

[ghrocketman]

Launch it on a B6-0, A8-0, or 1/2A6-0 in the booster and an A8-5 or 1/2A6-4 in the sustainer and you will get it back.
Launch it on a C6-0 to ANYTHING virtually guarantees you will lose it unless either launching in a HUGE field or using a streamer for recovery.

[tbzep]

Launch it on a B6-0, A8-0, or 1/2A6-0 in the booster and an A8-5 or 1/2A6-4 in the sustainer and you will get it back.
Launch it on a C6-0 to ANYTHING virtually guarantees you will lose it unless either launching in a HUGE field or using a streamer for recovery.
Got that right. I'd even go farther and say no matter how large your field, start out with no more than an A8-0 to A8-5 so that you can get accustomed to how fast it leaves and how tiny it is at altitude. It will fly higher and faster than an equivalent minimum diameter single stage on a B4 or B6. Work your way up one motor at a time until you almost lose it! The older you are, and the fewer people tracking, the more important it is!

[ghrocketman]

I used to launch my Astron Sprint on B14-7's and C6-7's all the time when I was younger.
That's a small single-stage BT-50 with a boat-tail that really gets up there on a C6-7 to over 1600' but is easily recovered/tracked with a 90" streamer.
I'd ditch the chute in the Taser Twin and replace it with a streamer.
A chute on any BT-20 based rocket results in nothing but un-needed long walks in anything but calm conditions.

[tbzep]

I used to launch my Astron Sprint on B14-7's and C6-7's all the time when I was younger.
That's a small single-stage BT-50 with a boat-tail that really gets up there on a C6-7 to over 1600' but is easily recovered/tracked with a 90" streamer.
I'd ditch the chute in the Taser Twin and replace it with a streamer.
A chute on any BT-20 based rocket results in nothing but un-needed long walks in anything but calm conditions.
Yep, ditch the chute. Even with calm surface air, a high altitude flight can hit a thermal and drift forever. I don't even understand why the Apogee and Apogee II shipped with a 10" chute back when streamer recovery was still cool.

Another reason to start small is that the booster is easy to lose even with a B6-0 if the field has any growth on it because you are so worried about tracking that little sustainer. You really need a second set of eyes that you can trust to track the booster all the way down instead of peaking at the sustainer.

[LeeR]

About 5-6 years ago, our Walmarts were clearancing all Estes rockets. I picked up the boxed Taser Twin for around $5, plus the other boxed kits, the Crossbow SST the Star Stryker, and the Ricochet. I've only built the Ricochet. The Taser Twin also reminds me of the Apogee II, my first two-stage rocket. The fins on upper definitely reminded me of the Sky Hook fins.

[Solomoriah]

Two of my 4-H kids are building the Taser Twin this year. I have a pack of Quest B6-0's and some Estes A8-5's... hopefully we can make do with those. I can't find A8-0's locally at all, so I'd have to order them.

[ghrocketman]

:chuckle: Agree about the Sky Hook fins.
The Apogee II used fins that looked like 75% sized Big Bertha fins on the sustainer.
Replace the sustainer fins on the Taser Twin and you essentially have an Astron Apogee II.

Find some A8-0's or order them.
The booster on that rocket is very small and potentially hard to find even using a B6-0.
I'd use a 1/2A6-0 if those were still readily available.
If you insist on a B6-0 in the booster for the first flight, at least paint it Flourescent Orange or Yellow to be able to find it.

[blackshire]

:chuckle: Agree about the Sky Hook fins.
The Apogee II used fins that looked like 75% sized Big Bertha fins on the sustainer.
Replace the sustainer fins on the Taser Twin and you essentially have an Astron Apogee II.

Find some A8-0's or order them.
The booster on that rocket is very small and potentially hard to find even using a B6-0.
I'd use a 1/2A6-0 if those were still readily available.
If you insist on a B6-0 in the booster for the first flight, at least paint it Flourescent Orange or Yellow to be able to find it.One thing that can help with recovering first (and middle) stages is to drop a straight stick, a strip of wood, or some other such long, straight object on the ground so that it points to the stage's impact point, as it appears to the person who sets the "pointer" on the ground. (This technique is useful for marking the impact points of boost-glider motor pods, too.) This enables an observer to watch the upper stage (or glider), then find the lower stage (or motor pod) later. Just remember to keep looking down while walking the bearing line established by the pointer--the stage or pod is usually closer than it seems to be! Also:

With a two-stage model such as the Taser Twin, the first stage could be streamer-recovered *and* be a "minimal wanderer," by using 13 mm A10-0T motors in it. The A10-0T would ignite the 18 mm second stage motor via vented gap-staging, and this ignition event could also--utilizing Evan "Buzz" Nau's vented gap-staged booster recovery method that he demonstrated in a NARAM R & D contest--rear-eject the 13 mm motor mount out the rear of the BT-20 first stage airframe. The motor mount would be attached to the first stage tube via a length of Kevlar cord, and a streamer would be attached to the motor mount's BT-5 tube (or somewhere in the middle of the Kevlar cord). A metallized Mylar or Kapton streamer would make the first stage easy to spot on the ground.

[stefanj]

To really make an Apogee II clone you'll need to add a clear payload section!

I gave my Taser Twin to a friend at work before I flew it.

[blackshire]

To really make an Apogee II clone you'll need to add a clear payload section!

I gave my Taser Twin to a friend at work before I flew it.That clear plastic tubing is easy enough to find, or to scrounge from another kit that has it. Or one could just use the same length of BT-20, and "count" it as a clear plastic payload section whose transparency is obscured by the sheet foam rubber liners inside (it would still be transparent at radio wavelengths)... :-)

[Rob Campbell]

That clear plastic tubing is easy enough to find, or to scrounge from another kit that has it. Or one could just use the same length of BT-20, and "count" it as a clear plastic payload section whose transparency is obscured by the sheet foam rubber liners inside (it would still be transparent at radio wavelengths)... :-)

Or cover it with chrome mylar from an auto accessories store to help with tracking during descent.

[Solomoriah]

I've always found silver things hard to track in the air, actually...

[jdbectec]

Me too. Unless they were a payload section hanging from a parachute and the sun reflecting

[stefanj]

I have a handfull of 1/2A6-0 and quite a few A8-0 in my big motor box.

I actually am kind of down on minimal-sized staging rockets. They zoom along like crazy, but it is hard to retrieve them on the small fields I do spot flying and demonstration launches on.

I have a small-company two-stager that I hope to build light and use as a demonstration flyer.

[ghrocketman]

Chrome mylar is much easier to track than silver.
Silver blends in with the sky, yet the least light shines brightly off chrome.

[Doug Sams]

I actually am kind of down on minimal-sized staging rockets. They zoom along like crazy, but it is hard to retrieve them on the small fields I do spot flying and demonstration launches on.

I have a small-company two-stager that I hope to build light and use as a demonstration flyer.When I started staging - when I BAR'd in 1999 - I remember flying my Midget on an A10-0T in the booster, and it went way up before staging. I'm glad I had only a 1/2A3-4T in the sustainer.

For many fliers at that time, booster selection was pretty sparse, so folks would often be using B6-0's or C6-0's in the boosters. For many 2-stage rockets that were neither heavy nor draggy, fliers would be lucky to get back half of it much less the entire rocket.

Doug...would love to come into possession of some 1/2A boosters...

.

[Solomoriah]

I buy what engines I don't have stockpiled from Wal-Mart clearance at Hobby Lobby, and they don't carry A8-0's, at least not around here. Unfortunate. B6-0 and C6-0 engines are readily available.

[BEC]

We had a Taser Twin at the BEMRC launch this past Saturday. It was painted all black and turned in two flights in which both stages were recovered. Both were B6-0 to B6-6. The fins on the booster were a little wavy, which certainly cost it some altitude during during the first stage burn....but it was easily the highest flying model of the day. Solid black with a bright orange streamer was relatively easy to track in the sky....with the emphasis on "relatively" :).

[ghrocketman]

Too bad Estes discontinued the B4-6 and kept the B6-6.
The thrust profile and larger diameter nozzle makes for a much better and easier ignited upper-stage motor.
Some of the engines Estes discontinued make no sense at all.
Examples:
B4-6 instead of B6-6 ( it makes no sense to me to have both B6 and B4 motors in the same delay ); the only B6 motor that still should exist is the B6-4; The B4-2 is better than the B6-2 and the B4-6 is better than the B6-6.

C5-3 instead of the C6-3; there is nothing the C6-3 does that the C5-3 does not do better.

The entire B8 line; it was a decent substitute for the B14 and can be made with a pintle die instead of drilling the core as the B14 had to; The B8 is much better at getting draggy/heavy rockets moving than the B6; I'd just as soon like the entire B6 line replaced by the B8 in delays of 0, 2, 4, and 6 seconds; the nozzle diameter is the same as the B4 and just would need a pintle-die used when pressing the propellant. One can actually make their 'own' B8's/B14's out of B4's albeit against the NAR safety code.

[tbzep]

Doug...would love to come into possession of some 1/2A boosters...


I come into possession of them on occasion...along with 1/4A3 and 1/2A6 boosters too. ;)

[Solomoriah]

I miss the B4-6 also, but mainly because I loved how it got the old Centuri Bandito into the air. The difference is small, but noticeable.

As an aside: Given that 13mm engines fit (barely) into empty 18mm casings, I'm often surprised that Estes doesn't make a separate delay-and-ejection module that you could push into a booster engine. It would fill a lot of niches.

[ghrocketman]

It could definitely simplify production if Estes only produced 'booster' engines, and separate 'delay/ejection' modules. Would definitely be better for customers as well.

[tbzep]

It could definitely simplify production if Estes only produced 'booster' engines, and separate 'delay/ejection' modules. Would definitely be better for customers as well.
It would be better for us. The average Walmart kid would screw it up.

[Doug Sams]

It could definitely simplify production if Estes only produced 'booster' engines, and separate 'delay/ejection' modules. Who was the company that did that (anyone)? AVI? I've seen the motors, and might even have one somewhere.

In fact, as I recall, when I first met Carl at NARCON in 2002 in Austin, he and I discussed those. I always had the impression that, if Semroc got into the motor biz, he would be using that 2-part approach.

Doug

.

[Doug Sams]

It would be better for us. The average Walmart kid would screw it up.Yeah, that was my thought, too. But, I suppose, Estes could always pre-assemble some for big retailers.

Doug

.

[Solomoriah]

It would be better for us. The average Walmart kid would screw it up.
Ack, I cannot argue there.

[LeeR]

Got that right. I'd even go farther and say no matter how large your field, start out with no more than an A8-0 to A8-5 so that you can get accustomed to how fast it leaves and how tiny it is at altitude. It will fly higher and faster than an equivalent minimum diameter single stage on a B4 or B6. Work your way up one motor at a time until you almost lose it! The older you are, and the fewer people tracking, the more important it is!

In all my years of flying rockets, I honestly do not remember ever buying "A" or smaller booster motors (other than the 13mm mini motors). But I may just order some A8-0/A8-5 motors and build my Taser Twin as an Apogee II, my first two-stage rocket, back in the 60s.

I'll shop for a plastic payload tube, and cut out "Bertha-like" fins used by the Apogee II, upper stage, and use in place of the "Sky Hook" style fins used on the Taser Twin.

[ghrocketman]

In discussions with Carl via email/pm's it was my understanding that once Semroc got back into motor production (which unfortunately never happened) they were going to go the route of having separate combined delay/ejection modules to be used with basic booster-style 'propellant modules', which would offer the greatest utility for HOBBYIST rocket fliers.
Agree this would not work for one-time purchasers at wal-mutt, some of which can barely READ.
I'm not in favor of 'dumbing down' our hobby for the toy-purchasing masses anyway.
That was almost the demise of Estes under that last knucklehead toy executive.
Thankfully Estes is in the hands of a true HOBBY company now under the watch of Lee Piester's son.

[blackshire]

Too bad Estes discontinued the B4-6 and kept the B6-6.
The thrust profile and larger diameter nozzle makes for a much better and easier ignited upper-stage motor.
Some of the engines Estes discontinued make no sense at all.
Examples:
B4-6 instead of B6-6 ( it makes no sense to me to have both B6 and B4 motors in the same delay ); the only B6 motor that still should exist is the B6-4; The B4-2 is better than the B6-2 and the B4-6 is better than the B6-6.

C5-3 instead of the C6-3; there is nothing the C6-3 does that the C5-3 does not do better.

The entire B8 line; it was a decent substitute for the B14 and can be made with a pintle die instead of drilling the core as the B14 had to; The B8 is much better at getting draggy/heavy rockets moving than the B6; I'd just as soon like the entire B6 line replaced by the B8 in delays of 0, 2, 4, and 6 seconds; the nozzle diameter is the same as the B4 and just would need a pintle-die used when pressing the propellant. One can actually make their 'own' B8's/B14's out of B4's albeit against the NAR safety code.Hmmm...I wonder if a B8 could produce performance approaching that of a B14 if a rocket powered by a B8 was piston-launched? Piston launchers need not be tricky devices to use--a commercially-made one (or one built from plans) could utilize a lengthwise-split, hinged cylinder that would be closed and latched shut around the stationary piston after the rocket's igniter was connected to leads that passed down through the piston. The hinged cylinder would also be easy to clean (as would the piston), and the cylinder's "lip-edge seals" could easily be changed when necessary. A short length of tower (a set of three or four easily-switchable, "adjustable opening" rails, just a few inches long) would be all the launcher would need to guide a model as it was very rapidly "popped" into the air at ignition. Such a launcher could be offered by Estes as an "associated product" for use with B8 (and C5) motors, and it would give any 18 mm motor extra "oomph."