Estes Designers - Their Kits & Works

[Daniel Runyon]

An attempt to get up a list of ALL Estes designers and what they made. Any knowledge you have to offer would be awesome! All contributions will be added to this master list so check it out from time to time should you be interested. So far:

Estes Designers - Their Kits & Works

Vern Estes (founder of Estes):
- Astron Scout
- Big Bertha
- Space Plane*

*Based on John Schutz's first boost glider design, but Vern built a couple dozen variations of it in order to make a model that could be easily built as a kit.

Earl Estes (Vern's Brother):
- Transroc

G. Harry Stine:
- Astron Mark

Wayne Kellner:
- Mars Lander
- Red Max
- K-50 Interceptor
- A-20 DEMON

Mark Kellner:
- Goblin

Ron McClaren:
- Moondog
- All the Star Wars plastic kits
- Sizzler
- Long Shot
- Mach 12
- Python
- Silver Comet
- All the Mighty Mites
- Outlander
- SR-X
- Intruder
- Invader
- Raider
- many more!

Dave Meyers:
- ARV Condor
- Corkscrew
- Transwing
- the never-produced F117
- Sweet V
- Launch pad for the Mighty Mite starter set

Gene Street:
- Astron NIghthawk Glider
- Cherokee D
- 1/70 Saturn 1B
- If Roy Recalls Correctly he was also credited with those gorgeous illustrations in all the mid to late 60's instructions!

Bill Simon:
- Sky Hook (his first design, according to Vern!)
- Alpha
- Scissor wing Transport
- SPEV (see note below)
- Started the BT nomenclature for body tubes.

Carl from Semroc adds this information...

"The SPEV is questionable. Gleda said that Bill was fired the first day Damon took over. The SPEV was almost four years later. If it was a "Spare Parts Elimination Vehicle", Bill had to have had a real vision. I think it may have been an inside joke to put his name on it as the designer."

Keith Niskern:
- late 80's version of the Saturn V (originally from Centuri and had done their Saturn V)

Matt Steele:
- 2157 Saturn V
- AstroSat
- Banshee
- Mk-109 Stingray
- Quark
- Gemini DC
- Firebird
- Nike Arrow
- Sabre
- X-ray
- X-Flyers
- Heatseeker
- Flash
- SM-3 Seahawk
- Fireflash
- Rattler -7
- Big Dawg
- AIM-120 AMRAAM
- Big Daddy
- Most North Coast Rocketry By Estes rockets!
- Eliminator, Lance Beta, Patriot, Archer, and Bomarc

Larry Renger:
- Astron Falcon
- Sky Dart Boost Glider
- BOMARCS (large and small)
- Stratoblaster
- Centurian

Mike Dorffler (Still there as of 4/11/07):
- LTV Scout
- Cineroc
- Astrocam
- Optima
- Pegasus
- Sprint
- SWAT
- Blue Bird Zero
- AIM-9 Sidewinder
- F22
- Asteroid Hunter
- AstroCam
- The EX2 Concept
- "most everything electronic that came out of the company"
- Co-designed the igniter plugs with Ron McClaren (you never know when such a simple device will be such a tough nut to crack!)

Tim Van Milligan (91-94):
- CATO
- Skywinder
- Omloid
- Delta Clipper
- TurboCopter

Now owns Apogee and is the developer of RockSim software!

Mary Roberts:
- Airwalker Starter Set

Roguepink (Identity Unknown):
- Porta Pot Shot
- Stone Age
- Pop Fly
- 18mm SpaceShipOne

and Rocket Doctor (Identity Unknown):
- Baby Bertha
- Converter/Deluxe SuperShot Screw Machine
- No.2 SkyWriter
- 36D Squared
- Screamin Mimi
- Suggested the breakaway in the new Mean Machine
- Wrote and reviewed instructions

North Coast Rocketry Only

Chris Pearson:
- NCR Phantom

Dan Kafun:
- Big Brute
- Interceptor G

[Carl@Semroc]

Bill Simon:
- Alpha
- SPEV
- Started the BT nomenclature for body tubes.

Vern said if he remembered correctly, the Sky Hook (K-6) was Bill's first Estes design.

The SPEV is questionable. Gleda said that Bill was fired the first day Damon took over. The SPEV was almost four years later. If it was a "Spare Parts Elimination Vehicle", Bill had to have had a real vision. I think it may have been an inside joke to put his name on it as the designer.

This is a great thread, by the way!

[Daniel Runyon]

Much appreciated Carl, that's a WONDERFUL tidbid of history you've offered up there! Feel free to spill anything you know regarding any of these people, or others not yet mentioned!

Incidentally, I found the info on Bill and the SPEV mentioned on your site via Google when I was looking him up! You've got an AWESOME selection of parts BTW, and some sweet looking kits too!

[Royatl]

Vern said if he remembered correctly, the Sky Hook (K-6) was Bill's first Estes design.

The SPEV is questionable. Gleda said that Bill was fired the first day Damon took over. The SPEV was almost four years later. If it was a "Spare Parts Elimination Vehicle", Bill had to have had a real vision. I think it may have been an inside joke to put his name on it as the designer.

This is a great thread, by the way!

could've been that he designed the Thor Agena?

[Daniel Runyon]

I wonder why he was fired and how Damon's taking over had anything to do with it? Were they just trimming overhead or was there a reason for singling him out? I would also be curious as to what Vern thought of that... was he against it and powerless, or was it at his suggestion for some reason? I know nothing about him other than what's listed above!

Also, does anyone know who designed the Scissor Wing Transport? What a brilliant piece of work!

[Carl@Semroc]

I wonder why he was fired and how Damon's taking over had anything to do with it? Were they just trimming overhead or was there a reason for singling him out? I would also be curious as to what Vern thought of that... was he against it and powerless, or was it at his suggestion for some reason? I know nothing about him other than what's listed above!Bill was the Vice President at the time. He was the guiding force that helped take Estes from the Volume 1 and 2 MRN that was typeset by hand to Volume 3 that set the standard for model rocket newsletters. He also designed the first full color catalog (1966) that left the spot color early catalogs behind.

From listening to Gleda and Vern, I gather that there was a lot of mutual respect and admiration between the three of them, along with a great working relationship. In my opinion it shows in the volume of work after Bill came on board.

I asked them how long Damon kept them after the sale was finalized. Gleda stayed the longest helping transition the production over to Damon leadership. Vern stayed on several years as a spokesman. When I asked how long they kept Bill, Gleda said "They got rid of him the same day!" I gathered it was a surprise the to Estes' that they were not keeping Bill.

When I thought about it later, they had to clean out all the top management, especially those that were loyal to Vern and Gleda. That is just the way companies absorbed companies back them. Would have been a lot different today if they had kept the same team in place and just provided expansion capital!

[Daniel Runyon]

Would have been a lot different today if they had kept the same team in place and just provided expansion capital!

Well, in a lot of ways their path wound up being VERY helpful to the overall health of things as it led to the wide open potential for mom'n'pops to fill in the gaps, so a large part of me is quite grateful, but it would be mighty interesting to see what it would be like today if they would have kept the team. I would have loved to still be able to do direct mail order with em... getting to sink into a catalog full of goodies!

Do you happen to know what Bill went on to do aftarwards? It had to be pretty hard to get axed like that for little more than a power change from a heartless new owner.

What in the - was Vern thinking, besides mega $? My goodness, they had such an awesome thing going there for such a long time... why on Earth anyone would want to let something like that get into such cold hands is something I'll never want to relate to.

Thank you very much, Carl, for sharing such deep insights!

[Royatl]

What in the - was Vern thinking, besides mega $? My goodness, they had such an awesome thing going there for such a long time... why on Earth anyone would want to let something like that get into such cold hands is something I'll never want to relate to.

Thank you very much, Carl, for sharing such deep insights!


You really need to just go over to www.launchmagonline.com and order the premier issue of LAUNCH. Then go over to NAR.org and order the past two issues of Sport Rocketry. Many of your questions are answered therein. Actually, just order all four past issues of LAUNCH and you'll have a lot of history and background on Estes, Centuri, Fliskits, Semroc, Vashon, RDC, and lots of space articles too.

[shockwaveriderz]

Bill Simon may have been fired by DAMOn on the 1st day, but evidently DAMON hired back again(not uncommon) as he was the designer of the Scissor wing Transport circa 72-74. You can read about its design and development in the April/MAY 1974 Estes MRN. At this time frame Bill (Wiliam) Simon is listed as Estes R&D Manager, which is a far cry from what he was hired in at age 19 fresh out of Junior College. Bill was hired by Vern EStes at age 19 fresh out of junior college and was immediately put to work as the Estes MRN editor among other things. Remember in those days everybody did multiple jobs and wore multiple hats. Bill told me this himself in several telephone and email conversations a few years back. Bill is still alive and well but I have lost contact with him, although I am trying to re-establish contact with him. LAst time I spoke with him he lived in Washington State.

IN April/May 1974 the Estes Maxi-Brute line came out so I would assume as Estes R&D manager he played a role in their being offered. He also was at EStest during the Goony Birds launch, mini-brutes launch,etc .


Larry Renger was the designer behind the Astron Falcon(nee Sky SLask derivative), and the Sky Dart BG, the small and large BOMARCS (Cittation Line) and of course later the Stratoblaster and the Centurian T-25(?). I have photos that LArry sent me showing him at work on the BOMARC"S at estes along with a photo of the SKy Dart prototype model.

Gene J. Street designed the Astron NIghthawk glider.

hth

terry dean
nar 16158

[Royatl]

Bill Simon may have been fired by DAMOn on the 1st day, but evidently DAMON hired back again(not uncommon) as he was the designer of the Scissor wing Transport circa 72-74. You can read about its design and development in the April/MAY 1974 Estes MRN. At this time frame Bill (Wiliam) Simon is listed as Estes R&D Manager, which is a far cry from what he was hired in at age 19 fresh out of Junior College. Bill was hired by Vern EStes at age 19 fresh out of junior college and was immediately put to work as the Estes MRN editor among other things. Remember in those days everybody did multiple jobs and wore multiple hats. Bill told me this himself in several telephone and email conversations a few years back. Bill is still alive and well but I have lost contact with him, although I am trying to re-establish contact with him. LAst time I spoke with him he lived in Washington State.

IN April/May 1974 the Estes Maxi-Brute line came out so I would assume as Estes R&D manager he played a role in their being offered. He also was at EStest during the Goony Birds launch, mini-brutes launch,etc .


Larry Renger was the designer behind the Astron Falcon(nee Sky SLask derivative), and the Sky Dart BG, the small and large BOMARCS (Cittation Line) and of course later the Stratoblaster and the Centurian T-25(?). I have photos that LArry sent me showing him at work on the BOMARC"S at estes along with a photo of the SKy Dart prototype model.

Gene J. Street designed the Astron NIghthawk glider.

hth

terry dean
nar 16158

So my info that Simon is in his 80's must be wrong. Sounds like he's more like he's 65-70.

(EDIT: Ah, now I know... I was confusing him with John Schutz.)

Has Renger been an employee there this whole time? It has always sounded like he was just a consultant, designing the occasional winged thing. I thought he worked at some point for one of the model airplane kit companies.

[shockwaveriderz]

roy:

I don't know if Larry Renger was ever an actual employee at Estes or not. I think he may have been in the early 70's. I'll email him and ask him. As for later dates he probably worked as a designer/consultant. Larry worked his entire life as a model/toy designer. The last company he worked for before reatiring a year or two ago was with some Chinese toy company.

It my understanding that the Statoblaster appeared as a plan in one of the model airplane mags before Estes decided to kit it.

Larry also worked at COX for a time or two or three.

Hes a graduate of MIT class of 1963.

hth

terry dean
nar 16158

[Gus]

Tim Van Milligan, owner of Apogee, worked for Estes from 1991 to 1994.
According to his bio on the Apogee site:

" Designed several exciting rockets: CATO, Skywinder (Patent Number: 5,413,514), Omloid, Delta Clipper, and TurboCopter"

[DaveR]

I've already asked a couple of YORF folks about this, but I would like to enlist any help that can be found and I assume their might be someone here who does't hang out at the Estes forum much or at all!

I'm trying to get up a list of ALL Estes designers and what they made in this thread. Any knowledge you have to offer would be awesome! And I'll keep an updated copy of the list going here too... I think it would be worthwhile to many interested people to have it in two of the most appropriate places it could be... there and here! So far:

Estes Designers - Their Kits & Works

Wayne Kellner:
- Mars Lander
- Red Max
- K-50 Interceptor

I was perusing an old Sport Rocketry Magazine (Feb '94) tonight and there is an article about the Estes A-20 DEMON (K-58, 1258). According to the article, the DEMON was designed by Wayne Kellner.

[Initiator001]

I was perusing an old Sport Rocketry Magazine (Feb '94) tonight and there is an article about the Estes A-20 DEMON (K-58, 1258). According to the article, the DEMON was designed by Wayne Kellner.

I think I wrote that article. ;)

Bob

[Beaker]

Vern mentioned that his brother Earl developed the Transroc.

Mike Dorffler designed the Pegasus (he told me that back when we ran the plan in Sport Rocketry).

And, just to get obscure, Mary Roberts designed the Airwalker starter set.

[Daniel Runyon]

Much appreciated, all has been added to the list!

What all rockets did Vern himself design?

[Beaker]

What all rockets did Vern himself design?

The only ones that I know of that Vern designed are the Astron Scout and Big Bertha. He also made the Space Plane kit (it was based on John Schutz's first boost glider design, but Vern built a couple dozen variations of it in order to make a model that could be easily built as a kit; perhaps it gets dual credit).

G. Harry Stine designed the Astron Mark (says so right here in catalog #261).

[DaveR]

I think I wrote that article.

Bob

:eek: I think you did. COOL! :cool:

Seems I'm about 13 years behind in my reading!

[ManofSteele]

Two of the more prolific designers were Ron McClaren and Dave Meyers.

I don't have a catalog handy, but Ron did as many designs as Dorrfler did at Estes. Just off the top of my head, he did the Moondog, all the Star Wars plastic kits, Sizzler, Long Shot, Mach 12, Python, Silver Comet, all the Mighty Mites, Outlander, SR-X, Intruder, Invader, Raider, and many more.

Dorrfler also did the AIM-9 Sidewinder, the F22, Asteroid Hunter, AstroCam, and many more.

Dave Meyers did a lot of the gliders, including the ARV Condor, Corkscrew, Transwing, the never-produced F117, Sweet V, and the launch pad for the Mighty Mite starter set.

I did the 2157 Saturn V, AstroSat, Banshee, Mk-109 Stingray, Quark, Gemini DC, Firebird, Nike Arrow, Sabre, X-ray, X-Flyers, Heatseeker, Flash, SM-3 Seahawk, Fireflash, Rattler -7, Big Dawg, AIM-120 AMRAAM, Big Daddy for Estes, plus probably some I forgot.

Chris Pearson did the original design for the NCR Phantom. Dan Kafun did the Big Brute and Interceptor G. I did the Eliminator, Lance Beta, Patriot, Archer, and Bomarc.
Matt

[stefanj]

Good information!

The Big Daddy is enough to get you into the hall of fame.

I bought a few "Big Dawgs." I built one and added a booster stage with a boat tail. I foolishly donated it to a club auction before my last move, and gave the unbuilt "Dawgs" to friends. Darn!

[Daniel Runyon]

Thanks a ton for that TON of info! Would you mind just sharing some memories of what it was like there?

[ManofSteele]

Thanks a ton for that TON of info! Would you mind just sharing some memories of what it was like there?
No, the memories would just disappoint you. What should've been the best job in the world ended up being the worst.... I'll leave it at that.
Matt

[Jackson Roykirk]

How about my old friends: Jeff Flygare, Bruce Carey, and Mike Hellmund? I know the Dragonfly was a kit of Bruce's Rocky Mountain Canary. What else did the three of them do?

[ManofSteele]

Jeff Flygare did Centuri kits, well before my time.... the Fighter Fleet jets, the UFO, I think.

I'm not sure what else Bruce Carey did.

Hellmund didn't do any Estes kits that I remember (I'm sure he will jump and and correct me!), but did do the design that became the NCR Black Hole Betty. He did do most of the Light Gliders, and some of the WestWings gliders that Estes put out.

Matt

[Rocketflyer]

Good information!

The Big Daddy is enough to get you into the hall of fame.

I bought a few "Big Dawgs." I built one and added a booster stage with a boat tail. I foolishly donated it to a club auction before my last move, and gave the unbuilt "Dawgs" to friends. Darn!

Still have A Big Dawg in the box. Great flyer on the old Apogee D3. Just make sure you have a small 'chute, or use a streamer! :o

[Rocketflyer]

No, the memories would just disappoint you. What should've been the best job in the world ended up being the worst.... I'll leave it at that.
Matt


I'm real sorry to hear that, Matt. I had buit two of your Eliminators. I flew them at RATS launches. A really fine flyer with sleek looks. Had to put in the 29mm MMT, but Sweet birds. :)

[D Ritchie]

Anybody know who designed the Orbital Transport or the Mars Snooper (& Snooper II)?

I seem to recall somebody telling me that Dorffler was the OT designer, but I may be mistaken.....

[Rocket Doctor]

A correction to the list, it's not connector, rather converter.
Also, the Rocket Doctor has written and reviewed many instructions, including those of the Interceptor (unless they have been edited).

The original Deluxe Super Shot Screw Machine was originally in Wal-Mart as a starter set, then, discontinued, now, it's a bagged kit and is now called the Converter.

There were four more designs scheduled to be produced, but, dropped, when the Forum was dropped.

These were going to be the "good things to come" as the RD stated !!!!

[JRThro]

There were four more designs scheduled to be produced, but, dropped, when the Forum was dropped.

These were going to be the "good things to come" as the RD stated !!!!
I thought the Estes forum was just closed for renovations. Though I'll admit I haven't followed things very closely.

[Daniel Runyon]

A correction to the list

Corrections made, RD and welcome/thanks... missed ya!

There were four more designs scheduled to be produced, but, dropped, when the Forum was dropped.

Is this to punish you for the time you spent on the forums or are the two things (forum closing, your designs dropped) completely unrelated?

These were going to be the "good things to come" as the RD stated !!!!

Surely to goodness you aren't saying that that was it for the "bring backs"... the Red Max and Interceptor should have been just a barely getting started!

[Rocket Doctor]

NO Forum and NO RD

When the Forum ceased, so did the Rocket Doctor......
Down the line the Rocket Doctor will speak out, until then, have a great flying season, one and all....

RD
More great things to come along ??????
Ask rougepink.

[Rocket Doctor]

There are many kits planned for this year, but, I don't know what will be coming along anymore, I'm out of the loop now.

Two individuals that helped to shut down the Estes Forum no longer work for Estes, their former marketing manager and the former VP of sales and marketing.

Just before the Forum was shut down, I could see the writings on the wall that my four designs weren't gong to fly (no pun intended). They were scheduled for production in the early stages of 2007, and were shot down, soon thereafter, the Forum stopped.

It seemed like two trains heading on the ame track, then, a collision.

My first design was a rocket called shooting star, a brilliant blue with white stars on the body tube, inside was to be two "shooting stars" which consisted of two rubbery pointed "stars" that when squeezed would flash with multicolor lights, these would have come down on seperate parachutes, two per rocket, giving you the effect, at dusk, of shooting stars zipping across the sky.

The next one was the "jump zone" an airplane looking rocket, it didn't glide down, but, looked like an airplane, contained inside was a military paratrooper, who would be ejected at apogee and he would try to land on a large target on the ground, it would make for a great spot landing rocket paratrooper combo.

The next one was a red max type design with and extended payload capsule, inside the capsule would be a siren, you would activate the siren prior to launch, and listen to it scream into the sky, very easy to track, it was called the Siren.

The forth rocket was going to be a Bell X-1 replica.

I also suggested that for the 50th, that Estes bring back the K-1 Scout, something very special was planned, but, was also shot down in April.

So, I don't know what ?Estes has in mind for the 50th next year (June 12, 2008) at this point I don't think anything or a very limited offering.

Since I'm out of touch with Estes now, I have no clue in what direction they will be going.

Like I said over and over again, I tried to have changes made for all of us, it was like being on a treadmill and going knowhere.

I was very sincere in the purpose of the Forum, but, met with much resistance, unfortunately.

Come to NARAM 50 next year and I would love to meet all of you, I'll be there...

Check back at nar.org, there is supposed to be a web page set up around Sept 15th, keep checking for NARAM 50 announcements.

Have a great day.......

MP2/RD

[Daniel Runyon]

My first design was a rocket called shooting star, a brilliant blue with white stars on the body tube, inside was to be two "shooting stars" which consisted of two rubbery pointed "stars" that when squeezed would flash with multicolor lights, these would have come down on seperate parachutes, two per rocket, giving you the effect, at dusk, of shooting stars zipping across the sky.

That sounds SUPER cool! The Siren is a good idea too, but that Shooting Star sounds downright CLASSIC.

[Rocket Doctor]

I also had a rocket that looked like a skunk, I called it Lil Stinker, it had the skunk tail and was black and white, really neet, didn't impress them at all.

[scigs30]

What is Estes target group? When they design a rocket, how many do they hope on selling? Will we ever see the old days of Estes?

[Initiator001]

What is Estes target group? When they design a rocket, how many do they hope on selling? Will we ever see the old days of Estes?

Past information leads me to say that the Estes target group is 10-14 year old males.

I don't know what the current criteria is for selling of each rocket kit. I DO know that they expect fewer sales for a Saturn V vs. an Alpha.

The old days are gone. If Estes was to return to products designed in the mold of the 1960s-70s, they would go out of business. Thank goodness we have Semroc, PDR, Thrusline, BMS and others which feed the need of us who remember rocketry in the past. :D

Bob

[Rocket Doctor]

It seems to me, sales through mass merchandisers is what they are going for, and this is only my gut feeling.

You pnly need to sell a handful of pricey kits to equal sales of less expensive kits.

A rocket like the oracle , you would only need to sell one to equal about six to eight regular kits.

The only way that your going to see Estes return to it's roots is if a group of BAR'S would pool their resourses and buy it. Or better yrt, when I hit the lottery and return it back into a true model rocket company.

The above comments are only my opinion...

RD

[scigs30]

Good luck on the Lotto....Does Estes have a plant in China or is it just a unnamed factory?

[Rocket Doctor]

Made in China by a seperate company not owned by Estes.

Haven't hit the lottery yet.

mega millions = $260 million
powerball = $360 million, and this one was picked tonight, haven't heard about any winners yrt.

[PaulK]

I also suggested that for the 50th, that Estes bring back the K-1 Scout, something very special was planned, but, was also shot down in April.
The K-1 would have been a natural, I was hoping for that, rats. I don't imagine it would have been a big seller though. The X-1 would have been really nice too.

[Rocket Doctor]

The K-1 Scout would have been a great bringback, it was the first Estes rocket and was a classic.

Over the years Estes produced three different versions of iy, even a mini. The two newer versions had the newer engine hook, the original was a round formed wire.

This kit was tumble recovery and it also used a BT-30 body tube that is slightly larger in diameter than the BT-20.

You can find instructions online.

Remember NARAM 50 in Virginia next summer, this should be a great gathering of felloe rocketeers.

[ghrocketman]

Even though the K-1 Scout would be the logical choice for a "re-issue" on the 50th anniversary of Estes, I hope it is just about anything else from the "Astron" era.
Even though it was first, I always found the Astron Scout to be HIDEOUSLY UGLY with fins that are WAYYYYYYY too thick for the size of the rocket.
They need to bring something DECENT back like the K41 NO-PLASTIC (like that will happen from somebody doing nothing but importation of cheap plastic parts) Redstone, Astron Ranger (which came out WAY before the Big Bertha), Astron Sky Dart (why did they bring back the worse-flying Scissor Wing Transport instead of the SkyDart ??), or Astron Cobra.

[Rocket Doctor]

The K-1 Scout was from the infancy of the hobby.
The reason why the fins were so thick was to prevent damage to the fins.

You have to remember, this is a tumble recovery rocket, the specual engine hook kept the engine with the rocket.

The motor would shift causing it to tumble, therefore "tumble recovery".

I can't go into details right now, but, something sprcial was planned for Estes 50th, you fill in the blanks.

[stefanj]

The Scout would be the logical choice.

Another neat idea would be a "Early Days" collection: Scout, Mark, Ranger, Space Plane.

I doubt it would happen, though. Ranger is a cluster; Space Plane is too complex.

[scigs30]

I have the old Scout, it comes with guaze to use as fillets. I would think this would make the rocket look ugly. Any ideas?

[scigs30]

RD, do you still think Estes will do something special for their 50th? If they did do the Scout, they would have to bring back Bt-30 and the wood nose cone. Or they would have to make a plastic PNC-30 type nose.

[Rocket Doctor]

I really don't know what Estes might or might not do for their 50th.

I know what WAS planned, but, yhat has since changed.

The BT-30 body tube was not spiral, but, convolute. The nose cones could be made, BMS and Semroc have them.

As far as the gauze reinforcement goes, you can get it to look good, I have used thin layers of carpenters glue and sanded it.

I'm sure there are other methods out there for making the gauze look good, all part of history.

I have cloned seven Scouts, I also had to make a jig to bend the round wire for the engine hook, it's certainly not flat as it is today.

My clones were all painted gold for the 50th, they really look great like a trophy.

[scigs30]

When is Estes 50th? I will build my orig. Scout then also...

[Rocket Doctor]

June 12,2008 Estes 50yh anniversary

Get building your Scouts, and paint one gold.....

[PaulK]

I have the old Scout, it comes with guaze to use as fillets. I would think this would make the rocket look ugly. Any ideas?What the Doc said, just fill the gauze with glue & sand. I built mine this way 30 years ago. The fins need reinforcement, due to the small root edge. The hook needs reinforcement too. Make sure you have two vent holes, mine has only one - last time I launched it, the 1/2A6-2 ejection charge caused the engine retainer to rip the gauze right down the middle. Could be that the ejection charges are stronger now than back then. :rolleyes:

[Rocket Doctor]

PaulI couldn't have put it any better.

Let's all clone the Scout and launch them on the anniversary date of June 12,2008. Let's see how mant Scouts we all can build.

I'm sure that Vern and Gleda would appreciate this token of our appreciation to them.

[moonzero2]

What a GREAT idea!!!! :D
I have an Estes Scout I built but never got around to finishing it!
We're all going to paint them gold, right? :cool:
And of course take pictures and everyone to see.
What a great tribute to Estes 50th. ;)

[Rocket Doctor]

I would suggest building several, and, at least paint one GOLD, to represent the 50th anniversary.

This would be a great tribute to Vern and Gleda, the namesake of Estes as we all know.

Taking photos and getting local newspapers involved would only make it better.

And, for all of us attending NARAM 50 next year, we all could present the photos to Vern and Gleda, and have that special GOLD Scout autographed by them, what a tribute that would be.

I am also going to suggest to the NAR, that they have a special Scout launch in tribute to Vern and Gleda.

This is a milestone in the hobby, let's do it ip right.

As I have mentioned previously, the NAR should be posting NARAM 50 information on their site around September 15th.

[barone]

I like the golden anniversary Scout idea. As we progress closer to the date, need to start syncronizing launches so everyone building a tribute Scout launches it, the same day, the same time....

[Brian L Raney]

:confused: Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the original 1963 version of the scout use a BT-20 body tube with 3 vent holes?

[Rocket Doctor]

The Scout as far as I know used a BT-30 inorder for the engine to slide upwards and then ejected back to offset the CG so yhe rocket could tumble.

There was a little piece of brass wire that supported the engine prior to liftoff.

I have seen versions of the Scout with more than one vent hole.

I will inquire and post my results later.

[Royatl]

:confused: Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the original 1963 version of the scout use a BT-20 body tube with 3 vent holes?

The Scout came out in 1961. Estes had two body tube sizes. BT-1, which was extra Model Missiles stock, and BT-3, which was the convolute wound tube that Gleda rolled. Eventually these would become BT-40 and BT-30 in the 1963 catalog. That's the year that Vern started buying tubes from Euclid (BT-20, BT-50, and BT-60).

The Scout (and the Mark, Sky Hook, and others) continued to be made with the manilla convolute wound BT-30 until sometime in the late 70's when they changed BT-30 to a Euclid spiral tube, and then they quit selling it separately. The kits that used them still sold till the mid-80's.

[moonzero2]

I would suggest building several, and, at least paint one GOLD, to represent the 50th anniversary.

This would be a great tribute to Vern and Gleda, the namesake of Estes as we all know.

Taking photos and getting local newspapers involved would only make it better.

And, for all of us attending NARAM 50 next year, we all could present the photos to Vern and Gleda, and have that special GOLD Scout autographed by them, what a tribute that would be.

I am also going to suggest to the NAR, that they have a special Scout launch in tribute to Vern and Gleda.

This is a milestone in the hobby, let's do it ip right.

As I have mentioned previously, the NAR should be posting NARAM 50 information on their site around September 15th.

For those of us who cannot get to NARAM 50 next year will not get our Scouts signed. :mad:
I wonder if it's possible,... we can ship it to someone who is going, and they get it signed for us and ship it back? :D Of course we would pay for the shipping.

[Rocket Doctor]

This was a suggestion for those attending NARAM 50.

I can only speculate and I have nothing to do with the planning of NARAM 50.

I don't want to cause a stir, and I don't want to overwhelm Vern and Gleda, it was just a thought.

I'm sure the folks at NARAM have planned something special for the 50th.

So, we will have to see what develops over the next 11 months.

But, like I said previously, it's just a thought of mine right now, and nothing as far as I know has been planned.

[Brian L Raney]

The Scout came out in 1961. Estes had two body tube sizes. BT-1, which was extra Model Missiles stock, and BT-3, which was the convolute wound tube that Gleda rolled. Eventually these would become BT-40 and BT-30 in the 1963 catalog. That's the year that Vern started buying tubes from Euclid (BT-20, BT-50, and BT-60).

The Scout (and the Mark, Sky Hook, and others) continued to be made with the manilla convolute wound BT-30 until sometime in the late 70's when they changed BT-30 to a Euclid spiral tube, and then they quit selling it separately. The kits that used them still sold till the mid-80's.

I pretty sure your right, it's just I found this interesting diagram on JimZ Rocket plans page that gave me pause:

[Royatl]

I pretty sure your right, it's just I found this interesting diagram on JimZ Rocket plans page that gave me pause:

yea, but that drawing was obviously made by someone with no connection to Estes, and someone who may never have heard of BT-30, and just assumed that it was close enough to be BT-20.

[barone]

For those of us who cannot get to NARAM 50 next year will not get our Scouts signed. :mad:
I wonder if it's possible,... we can ship it to someone who is going, and they get it signed for us and ship it back? :D Of course we would pay for the shipping.
I'm not sure how well that would fly. I kinda see the RD's point. I certainly wouldn't want to overwhelm the Estes' with autographing a bunch of Scouts for people not there. For all they know, we could be planning on selling them on E-bay :rolleyes:

[Rocket Doctor]

I have found different versions of the instructions in my search, all of them stating alittle something different.

[moonzero2]

I'm not sure how well that would fly. I kinda see the RD's point. I certainly wouldn't want to overwhelm the Estes' with autographing a bunch of Scouts for people not there. For all they know, we could be planning on selling them on E-bay :rolleyes:

Just an idea and I was thinking out loud and I was caught up in the moment. Your right.

[Rocket Doctor]

Lets see what events the NARAM director comes up with. I'm sure they have quite an extensive program planned for the 50th.We can suggest ideas, and, let them decide if it's worthwhile.

Like I mentioned previously, the NAR should have information on their site around September 15th.n www.nar.org

[snuggles]

IIRC, the Scout fins were also used as the pylon for the Falcon B/G, hence the size.
As for the autographs being sold on E Bay, Vern signed my EAC Viper , my Mars Lander kit,AND my 1970( I think) Estes Catalog( With the OT on the cover) at NARCON 2005.
Ain't NO WAY in !@#^%&% I'm selling them!!!
They mean way too much to me!!!
Mark T NAR27793 L2

[Rocket Doctor]

I had ONLY suggested the signing of Scouts.
My intention was not to overwhelm the Estes".

Scouts would be a tribute to them....

[Ltvscout]

IIRC, the Scout fins were also used as the pylon for the Falcon B/G, hence the size.
Interesting, I didn't know that. I had a Falcon as a kid. Never could get it to boost/glide correctly.

[Ltvscout]

As for the autographs being sold on E Bay, Vern signed my EAC Viper , my Mars Lander kit,AND my 1970( I think) Estes Catalog( With the OT on the cover) at NARCON 2005.
Heh, I wasn't thinking at NARCON2005. I neglected to bring anything for Vern/Gleda to sign. I made up for it in 2006 though. I brought a ton of items for Lee and Betty Piester to sign for me. :D

For a collector, I believe the Piester autograph would hold more value since there's far fewer of them out there. The Estes' go to the big NAR events each year and are always gracious enough to sign things for people. Hence, a lot more Estes autographs out there.

[snuggles]

In hindsight, I had no idea at the time what an influence Gleda had in the early days. I'd LOVE to have her sign my items that Vern graciously signed. Hopefully I'll get the chance.
Mark T

[Ltvscout]

In hindsight, I had no idea at the time what an influence Gleda had in the early days. I'd LOVE to have her sign my items that Vern graciously signed. Hopefully I'll get the chance.
Ya, that's the reason why I got Betty to sign a number of items for me as well.

[surdumil]

This thread is a fantastic wealth of information. Thank you to all participants. I remember gazing fondly at all those Estes and Centuri kits in a laundy/craft shop in Yorkton, Saskatchewan, Canada back in the spring of 1974. I was twelve years old.

The kits were so inexpensive and taught me a great deal about modeling and, eventually, about physics and aerodynamics. They helped fuel an avid interest in the sciences and, especially in space exploration. That eventually lead to an interest in computer science and electronic engineering, which led to internships involving earth observation remote sensing, avionics, and satellite communications. I have been developing custom-designed earth-based satellite communication hardware and logic for about nine years now, and I love my job.

All of that would not have happened had your designs not captured my imagination. I offer my gratitude and appreciation to the owners and personel, past and present, of Estes and Centuri.

With warm thanks,
Dwayne Surdu-Miller

[Rocket Doctor]

THANKS FOR SHARING YOUR ROCKETRY EXPERIENCES WUTH ALL OF US.

mANY OF THE ASTRONAUTS STARTED OUT BY USING MODEL ROCKETS (Jay Apt)

For a hobby to endure such changes in the world today, nearly 50 years now, is a tribute to those who started the hobby. Orville Carlise, G.Harry Stine, Vern Estes, and Lee Piester, just to mention a few.

Model rocketry has been a part of many of us in one way or another.

For me, starting in grade school so many years ago, and now, 43 years later, it was well worth the journey.

I'm looking forward to NARAM 50 next year in Virginia, a giant reunion of some of the great leaders in the hobby.

[al_packer]

In answer to a question from some time back, yes, Larry Renger was very definitely an Estes employer, and a very valuable one. The people in Boston were focused only on what they could extract from E.I., and they gutted our R&D department at the first opportunity. Larry got axed in the first round of lay-offs, and I really regretted his loss.

Orbital Transport was a Wayne Kellner design, Mars Snooper a Gene Street design. Vern did design the Spaceman model, one of the Mosquito versions, Ranger and Bertha, the Camroc, not to mention Mabel, the automatic nose cone lathes, the successor Mable II, the ElectroLaunch, etc.

I'd love to see more recognition of Wayne, Mike Dorffler, the late Gene Street, and Larry for the contribution they made to model rocketry in the early days. Their imagination and creativity made model rocketry exciting for literally millions of young people. We had one heck of a crew there.

WMS

[Carl@Semroc]

Bill,

Vern and Gleda both hold you in the highest regard, as you know. They attribute much of the early rapid growth to your contributions. Vern remembers that the Sky Hook was one of your earliest designs at Estes. They both have praised you for the transformation of MRN to a more professional layout and the first full color 1965 (1966) catalog.

You and Gene Street were always two people that I admired, based on his and your important contributions to the hobby that set the standards for everyone else, even today.

Welcome to the forum. I know you can answer a lot of questions we all have about the early years at Estes.

[Initiator001]

Bill,

Vern and Gleda both hold you in the highest regard, as you know. They attribute much of the early rapid growth to your contributions. Vern remembers that the Sky Hook was one of your earliest designs at Estes. They both have praised you for the transformation of MRN to a more professional layout and the first full color 1965 (1966) catalog.

You and Gene Street were always two people that I admired, based on his and your important contributions to the hobby that set the standards for everyone else, even today.

Welcome to the forum. I know you can answer a lot of questions we all have about the early years at Estes.


Carl,

You are talking about Bill Simon, correct?

I bet he has some stories!

Bob

[al_packer]

Carl,

Thanks for the kind words.
I'm still on the south side of 65, at least for a short while still.

The neat thing about Estes Ind. in the early days was that it wasn't about money (except as a means to keep doing neat things) or ego, but a place where there was great teamwork and collaboration. Most of the products developed while I was there (1962 to 1977) involved contributions by several individuals.

I now live and work in Washington state -- in the marine industry. I've often felt that If Vern had gone into boatbuilding instead of model rockets he'd probably own all of Brunswick and BRP now. (And the boats that people buy would be 50 years more advanced than the stuff on the market today.) Vern did much to bring out the best in the people who worked for him, and I in turn tried to do the same. Frankly, he had as much influence on my growing up as anybody.

My email address is al_packer @ yahoo.com if you want to contact me directly.

Also, regarding the SPEV, of which some opinions have been expressed in these forums:

John Hood, an ex-army supply sergeant, was our warehouse manager, and inventory control at the time consisted of John taking a look at the shelves and bins in his warehouse (a former chicken house) and passing a requisition on to George Miller if something looked low.

With the rapid growth of the hobby and the company, a lot of things tended to be in short supply. Consequently, John put in multiple requisitions for some parts during the interval between his original req. and the receipt of the purchase order. The result was that rather than ordering say 5000 pieces of a particular body tube, George ended up ordering 5000 pieces 4 or 5 times. At some point, somebody in Accounting took a look at the inventory counts and compared them with our sales of kits, and discovered several items of which we had a 10 to 50 year supply on hand.

SPEV was kind of like putting a jigsaw puzzle together; you took the parts and determined how they fit together. Add a couple of common parts to make it all work, and Behold--a Surplus Parts Elimination Vehicle. I can't say it's a product that I take any pride in, except that it has served as a great example to use in educating Purchasing and Warehouse personnel.

[Initiator001]

Also, regarding the SPEV, of which some opinions have been expressed in these forums:

John Hood, an ex-army supply sergeant, was our warehouse manager, and inventory control at the time consisted of John taking a look at the shelves and bins in his warehouse (a former chicken house) and passing a requisition on to George Miller if something looked low.

With the rapid growth of the hobby and the company, a lot of things tended to be in short supply. Consequently, John put in multiple requisitions for some parts during the interval between his original req. and the receipt of the purchase order. The result was that rather than ordering say 5000 pieces of a particular body tube, George ended up ordering 5000 pieces 4 or 5 times. At some point, somebody in Accounting took a look at the inventory counts and compared them with our sales of kits, and discovered several items of which we had a 10 to 50 year supply on hand.

SPEV was kind of like putting a jigsaw puzzle together; you took the parts and determined how they fit together. Add a couple of common parts to make it all work, and Behold--a Surplus Parts Elimination Vehicle. I can't say it's a product that I take any pride in, except that it has served as a great example to use in educating Purchasing and Warehouse personnel.

Bill,

Thank you for the 'insight' on the history of the SPEV.

Another question if I may.

We have quite a few Goonybird fans here. What is the story behind their development? I have three of them and used to use my Galaxy Guppy for school demos 30+ years ago. :rolleyes:

Thanks.

Bob Sanford

[Royatl]

Carl,

Also, regarding the SPEV, of which some opinions have been expressed in these forums:

John Hood, an ex-army supply sergeant, was our warehouse manager, and inventory control at the time consisted of John taking a look at the shelves and bins in his warehouse (a former chicken house) and passing a requisition on to George Miller if something looked low.

With the rapid growth of the hobby and the company, a lot of things tended to be in short supply. Consequently, John put in multiple requisitions for some parts during the interval between his original req. and the receipt of the purchase order. The result was that rather than ordering say 5000 pieces of a particular body tube, George ended up ordering 5000 pieces 4 or 5 times. At some point, somebody in Accounting took a look at the inventory counts and compared them with our sales of kits, and discovered several items of which we had a 10 to 50 year supply on hand.

SPEV was kind of like putting a jigsaw puzzle together; you took the parts and determined how they fit together. Add a couple of common parts to make it all work, and Behold--a Surplus Parts Elimination Vehicle. I can't say it's a product that I take any pride in, except that it has served as a great example to use in educating Purchasing and Warehouse personnel.

Bill,

I noticed your profile a couple of years ago when you joined and wondered who on earth could that be... I wasn't familiar with an "Al" that worked at Estes!

As you can tell from my tag, I've been a big fan of the SPEV. I still have my original model that I got sometime in the middle 70's. I don't remember exactly when I got it, but I built it in the summer of '77 when I returned from my first break from rocketry. I built it with a different fin style, but otherwise it is stock. It's made over 200 flights, spent two weeks on a power line, five days of rain, finally dropped six inches from the road by the entrance of the school. When I found it I was amazed it hadn't been taken, or purposely run-over! It's last two flights were made at NARAM 43 (where it lost a fin) and NARAM 49 (where it lost another fin!) but in the meantime, thanks to Bill at Balsa Machining, Fred at Excelsior, and Carl at Semroc I have six(!) others more-or-less ready to go!

You might be interested to know I also have a notebook containing Doug Malewicki's original manuscript to the Altitude Charts book, and his letters to you concerning them and the original article in MRN. Very entertaining! I'll be displaying them at the Old Rocketeer's Reunion next year at NARAM-50. I hope you get a chance to cross the country to attend!

[Rocket Doctor]

Bill

Good to hear about the good old days of Estes, quite different from today.

Mabel ,the engine making machine has gone to the scrap yard many years ago, very unfortunate.

Larry H. Renger also designed the K-57 Sky Dart (1971 - 1977) I have one sitting in front of me now.

The early history of Estes needs to be captured in a book, Vern has started a book and has the first three chapters done, called "Dear Mr Estes".

As you know, June 12, 2008 will be the 50th anniversary of Estes Industries and July 26 - Aug 1st will be NARAM 50 in Virginia, a great celebration of a great hobby.

As with the space program, the "originals" will never be duplicated, like with NASA, the "technology" just isn't the same.

Now, we have reissues of the vintage classics.

Maybe you can team up with Vern on the book project, unfortuate it couldn't be done for the 50th.

Best regards,

Ken Montanye
NAR 9803 SR

[al_packer]

The Gooney Bird product line is something that still ticks me off 30+ years later.

Wayne Kellner and Mike Dorffler came up with a series of designs which were caricatures of actual missiles -- the Japanese "Baka" bomb, the V1, etc. The designs were "spot-on", and any halfway knowlegable rocketeer would have appreciated them. You didn't need a focus group, market survey, or the like to know that they would sell well.

However, Damon had foisted upon us a "Marketing Vice President" whose main claim to fame was that he was the sales manager at another company when the collector craze for their products took off. So said individual, who had no concept of what the model rocketeerw who were our market base thought, liked, or did, took the kit prototypes to a graphic artist who had done work for him in the past, but had no knowlege of model rocketry. With those qualifications, he had him create new decors and names for the models.

Sales were 1/10th or less of what the original designs would have posted, and the line was mercifully dropped within a short time.

Moral of the story -- the best designs for any product come from people who are passionate about the product, be it model rockets, cars, boats, bikes or cooking pots. If you don't have a passion for the product, do the world a favor and find something else to work on.

Bill

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

The Gooney Bird product line is something that still ticks me off 30+ years later.

Wayne Kellner and Mike Dorffler came up with a series of designs which were caricatures of actual missiles -- the Japanese "Baka" bomb, the V1, etc. The designs were "spot-on", and any halfway knowlegable rocketeer would have appreciated them. You didn't need a focus group, market survey, or the like to know that they would sell well.

However, Damon had foisted upon us a "Marketing Vice President" whose main claim to fame was that he was the sales manager at another company when the collector craze for their products took off. So said individual, who had no concept of what the model rocketeerw who were our market base thought, liked, or did, took the kit prototypes to a graphic artist who had done work for him in the past, but had no knowlege of model rocketry. With those qualifications, he had him create new decors and names for the models.

Sales were 1/10th or less of what the original designs would have posted, and the line was mercifully dropped within a short time.

Moral of the story -- the best designs for any product come from people who are passionate about the product, be it model rockets, cars, boats, bikes or cooking pots. If you don't have a passion for the product, do the world a favor and find something else to work on.

Bill

Not to further piss you off or anything, but........ ;)


http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s286/Wallyum/GoonyGroup013.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s286/Wallyum/GoonyGroup012.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s286/Wallyum/GoonyGroup014.jpg

There's a fine line between passionate and "Bill fed his meds to the bush again". :D

[Rocket Doctor]

Bill

Right on, seems things haven't changed much there.

When a former marketing manager doesn't know what a engine block is used for (saying it's to prevent the engine block from being dented when cutting the engine hook slit) makes you wonder.

Having been in the hobby for 43 years, and having built loads of rockets, it makes me woder about "E".

I was a independent marketing consultant for "E" doing many things, besides writing instructions, attending trade shows and designing kits, then. moderator of the now dfunct Estes Forum, until the plug was pulled.

I had about 25 designs that didn't "make it" and if they were "approved" "E" could have benefitted from them.

My contribution were Deluxe Super Shot Screw Machine (not my name though) Converter, Screamin MiMi, Estes No2 Skywriter,Baby Bertha and 36bD Squared.

I had four more scheduled to come out this year as well Shooting Star, Jump Zone, Siren and Bell X-1.............all CANCELLED.

I'm not here to pick on anybody, just to state my opinion.

Thanks for you Estes history.
Ken

a/k/a RD

[Gus]

Bill,

Any chance you could give us a sketch of the cariacature rockets?

[Solomoriah]

Any chance you could give us a sketch of the cariacature rockets?
Yes, indeed! I'd enjoy building such a rocket (or two...)

[Ltvscout]

SPEV was kind of like putting a jigsaw puzzle together; you took the parts and determined how they fit together. Add a couple of common parts to make it all work, and Behold--a Surplus Parts Elimination Vehicle. I can't say it's a product that I take any pride in, except that it has served as a great example to use in educating Purchasing and Warehouse personnel.
Bill,

Thank you for the history of the SPEV. You also corrected the acronym meaning for me. I always thought it stood for "Spare" Parts Elimination Vehicle.

[Royatl]

The Gooney Bird product line is something that still ticks me off 30+ years later.

Wayne Kellner and Mike Dorffler came up with a series of designs which were caricatures of actual missiles -- the Japanese "Baka" bomb, the V1, etc. The designs were "spot-on", and any halfway knowlegable rocketeer would have appreciated them. You didn't need a focus group, market survey, or the like to know that they would sell well.

However, Damon had foisted upon us a "Marketing Vice President" whose main claim to fame was that he was the sales manager at another company when the collector craze for their products took off. So said individual, who had no concept of what the model rocketeerw who were our market base thought, liked, or did, took the kit prototypes to a graphic artist who had done work for him in the past, but had no knowlege of model rocketry. With those qualifications, he had him create new decors and names for the models.

Sales were 1/10th or less of what the original designs would have posted, and the line was mercifully dropped within a short time.

Moral of the story -- the best designs for any product come from people who are passionate about the product, be it model rockets, cars, boats, bikes or cooking pots. If you don't have a passion for the product, do the world a favor and find something else to work on.

Bill


HA! I KNEW IT!!!!!!! :p

I mentioned somewhere recently that when I saw the Gooneybirds for the first time, it was the first indication to me that Estes (or rather, Damon) had decided that model rockets really were just toys. The kids in my rocket club treated them with ridicule.

Even so, there is an odd nostalgia for the Gooneybirds nowadays, and I'm not sure where it comes from, so your words will not be much comfort to a lot of people around here.

[barone]

HA! I KNEW IT!!!!!!! :p

I mentioned somewhere recently that when I saw the Gooneybirds for the first time, it was the first indication to me that Estes (or rather, Damon) had decided that model rockets really were just toys. The kids in my rocket club treated them with ridicule.

Even so, there is an odd nostalgia for the Gooneybirds nowadays, and I'm not sure where it comes from, so your words will not be much comfort to a lot of people around here.
I think the "odd nostalgia" comes from the odd ball rocket aspect of the goonies.

[Rocket Doctor]

In my opinion. rockets need not be all rocket all the time.

Variety is always good, it's up to the individual as to what they want.

What about kitbashing, looking back, there has been quite a few "different" rocket designs over the years.

And, in the case of the Goony's, what started out one way, was changed significantly.

The current 36 D Square was changed, my original didn't have "hockey stick" fins, and the nose cone was pointed.

Also, the original name was different from the current name, and, that is a whole different topic.

[Ltvscout]

Also, the original name was different from the current name, and, that is a whole different topic.
Heh, I heard it was more in line with a bra size originally. ;)

[Rocket Doctor]

YES

My original name was Double D's, referring to two "D" motors, not in refewrence to anything else, but, from what I heard, they "E" came up with some "hot" paint schemes and parachutes.

It's like the Scew Machine, my original name was Kwick Knect, but they came up with the name, which I complained about, another story.

Out of all my designs that "made it" Baby Bertha was the only one that I named !!!!!

[al_packer]

1) Bill Eichelberger's Gooneybird models look great--definitely first rate craftsmanship. Seeing them eases the pain. I may skip my meds today.

2) As for the original sketches, photos, etc., Wayne Kellner may have some of that stuff if anybody knows how to contact him.

[Initiator001]

The Gooney Bird product line is something that still ticks me off 30+ years later.

Wayne Kellner and Mike Dorffler came up with a series of designs which were caricatures of actual missiles -- the Japanese "Baka" bomb, the V1, etc. The designs were "spot-on", and any halfway knowlegable rocketeer would have appreciated them. You didn't need a focus group, market survey, or the like to know that they would sell well.

However, Damon had foisted upon us a "Marketing Vice President" whose main claim to fame was that he was the sales manager at another company when the collector craze for their products took off. So said individual, who had no concept of what the model rocketeerw who were our market base thought, liked, or did, took the kit prototypes to a graphic artist who had done work for him in the past, but had no knowlege of model rocketry. With those qualifications, he had him create new decors and names for the models.

Sales were 1/10th or less of what the original designs would have posted, and the line was mercifully dropped within a short time.

Moral of the story -- the best designs for any product come from people who are passionate about the product, be it model rockets, cars, boats, bikes or cooking pots. If you don't have a passion for the product, do the world a favor and find something else to work on.

Bill

Bill,

Thank you for taking the time to provide the history of the Goonybirds.

I'm sorry if remembering that episode caused you a headache.

I'd would enjoy hearing about the development of the Interceptor (K-50) and the history behind the Citation line of products when you have a moment.

I hope information like Bill is providing can be archived and saved for the future. :)

Bob

[gpoehlein]

The Gooney Bird product line is something that still ticks me off 30+ years later.

Wayne Kellner and Mike Dorffler came up with a series of designs which were caricatures of actual missiles -- the Japanese "Baka" bomb, the V1, etc. The designs were "spot-on", and any halfway knowlegable rocketeer would have appreciated them. You didn't need a focus group, market survey, or the like to know that they would sell well.

However, Damon had foisted upon us a "Marketing Vice President" whose main claim to fame was that he was the sales manager at another company when the collector craze for their products took off. So said individual, who had no concept of what the model rocketeerw who were our market base thought, liked, or did, took the kit prototypes to a graphic artist who had done work for him in the past, but had no knowlege of model rocketry. With those qualifications, he had him create new decors and names for the models.

Sales were 1/10th or less of what the original designs would have posted, and the line was mercifully dropped within a short time.

Moral of the story -- the best designs for any product come from people who are passionate about the product, be it model rockets, cars, boats, bikes or cooking pots. If you don't have a passion for the product, do the world a favor and find something else to work on.

Bill

I, too, would be curious to know what the originals were supposed to look like. Did the fin planform change too or are the goonies just repaints/redecorations of the original caricatures? If the latter, do you remember what goony came from what original?

Greg

[Doug Sams]

If the latter, do you remember what goony came from what original?SWAG: The Cloud Hopper looks like the Baka, and the Missile Toe the V1. (/SWAG)

Doug

[surdumil]

The Galactic Guppy looks a little V-2'ish...

[mikeyd]

Maybe the Zoom Broom was the Gee-Bee Racer?

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Guys, you're overthinking this.
Cloudhopper = Bunny
Sky Shriek = Tongue
Star Snoop = Eyeball
Missile Toe = Sore toe
Zoom Broom = Witches hotrod
Galaxy Guppy = Fishhead
:cool: :D :rolleyes:

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

1) Bill Eichelberger's Gooneybird models look great--definitely first rate craftsmanship. Seeing them eases the pain. I may skip my meds today.

Yes! ALL BOW TO THE GOONY MASTER!!! :D

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s286/Wallyum/Billisamanlyman.jpg :cool:

[tbzep]

My mother had one of those hair dryers. I used to beg to put it on in the winter when I was freezing my butt off. We had wood heat so one area was nice and warm and the rest of the house was cold.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

My mother had one of those hair dryers. I used to beg to put it on in the winter when I was freezing my butt off. We had wood heat so one area was nice and warm and the rest of the house was cold.

It's not a hair dryer. It's a Halloween costume. I went as Orville Redenbacher's love child. :D :eek:

[Rocket Doctor]

It's not a hair dryer. It's a Halloween costume. I went as Orville Redenbacher's love child. :D :eek:





Johnny Carson returns as Karnack............

[tbzep]

LOL...It hasn't been used in decades, but my mother still has her Orville Redenbacher Halloween costume. :D

[al_packer]

I'm impressed -- You're doing better at making the correlations than I would. In answer to somebody's question, no, the fins, nose cones, etc. were not changed in the "improvement process. Where's Kellner when you need him?
Bill

[surdumil]

It's interesting that in the 1973 and 1974 Estes catalogs, the Goonybird pages (http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/catalogs/estes73/73est16.html) show the Missile Toe with the tube fin down and one of the "wing" fins up. This blurs its resemblence to a V-1 which really fights with the original concept of missile caricatures. It kinda underlines the disconnect between the marketing folks and the idea originators that you've expressed, BIll. It would have been cool to have a couple of decal sets for each design (caricature and goony) but I guess it wasn't to be.

Dwayne Surdu-Miller

[Rocket Doctor]

The subject of bringing back the Goonies was brought up a year ago and quickly dropped !!!!!!!

[Mikus]

My contribution were ... Estes No2 Skywriter...

Ken

a/k/a RD

Hey that's the one that pulled me back into the hobby. I'm walking thru Michaels looking for a gift for my lovely wife when I run across the Skywriter. I'm thinking, "That's pretty cool and not too expensive, I wonder if it's as fun as it was when I was a kid."

4 months, a bunch of kits and more money than I care to think about later, here I am.

So I guess a big thanks is called for here. :D

[Rocket Doctor]

Hey that's the one that pulled me back into the hobby. I'm walking thru Michaels looking for a gift for my lovely wife when I run across the Skywriter. I'm thinking, "That's pretty cool and not too expensive, I wonder if it's as fun as it was when I was a kid."

4 months, a bunch of kits and more money than I care to think about later, here I am.

So I guess a big thanks is called for here. :D


Welcome bacj into the hobby. The Skywriter is very popular with the kids in school. Also as popular is the Baby Bertha, with the Skywriter, it's a quick build, and with the Baby Bertha, it's balsa fins, larger in diameter and fun to build and fly.

[Skippy]

I'm impressed -- You're doing better at making the correlations than I would. In answer to somebody's question, no, the fins, nose cones, etc. were not changed in the "improvement process. Where's Kellner when you need him?
Bill

OK then, why doesn't someone make decal sets that are their interpretation of the original caricatures? I'm presuming that there are no pictures in existence of the original designs?

[Rocket Doctor]

My guess would be that because of the time frame vintage prints and other info is long gone unless someone has it in their private collection.

So many documents are "missing".

[al_packer]

My guess would be that because of the time frame vintage prints and other info is long gone unless someone has it in their private collection.

So many documents are "missing".
It seems that the things we expect to have value in the future don't, and those things we scorn turn out to have lasting value. FWIW --I have copies of the instruction sheets for the 4 original Estes Land Rocket cold power kits. Talk about bad timing! The completion of development work just happened to coincide with the news that Freon was destroying the Ozone Layer, and the indiscriminate release of Freon would henceforth be illegal. Nowadays I'd expect the company to sue the Federal Government for compensation for the loss of value in the conpany's products. Back then we just took our lumps and moved on to the next project.

Bill

[Leo]

Everyone,

I thought this is such a great thread with infos I decided to add the "designers" to my list of rockets.

So, please keep them names coming so I can add them to my database :)

[Rocket Doctor]

Leo

Have you set up the list yet?

RD

[Leo]

Yes RD.

Did it yesterday.

Just visit my web site under "Rockets" and click on a manufacturer.

e.g. here Estes Industries (http://www.leo.nutz.de/Rockets.php?Rockets=Estes%20Industries)

[Initiator001]

Yes RD.

Did it yesterday.

Just visit my web site under "Rockets" and click on a manufacturer.

e.g. here Estes Industries (http://www.leo.nutz.de/Rockets.php?Rockets=Estes%20Industries)

Larry Renger designed the Astro-Blaster R/C Glider.

Bob

[Leo]

Thanks Bob.

It has been added.

[pantherjon]

List looks awesome Leo! :)

[Leo]

Thanks Jon.

I'll be curious to see if I actualy will manage to have all the names for each of my kits.

[al_packer]

A good friend of mine slipped the attached sketches under my door. These are indeed the original sketches by Mike Dorffler and Wayne Kellner. I'm looking forward to seeing your reactions!

[Leo]

HAHA, they are great and would be perfect to "clone" :)

[tbzep]

Cool! I really like the first two. I think I have a Baby Bertha in a bag somewhere. :D

[barone]

GREAT! Someone needs to RockSim those and try to get a build going. :rolleyes:

[Rocket Doctor]

WOW
Quite different from the Goonies.

Lets all start cloning, photos to follow !!!!!


Bill

Was that the front door or back ???

[Initiator001]

A good friend of mine slipped the attached sketches under my door. These are indeed the original sketches by Mike Dorffler and Wayne Kellner. I'm looking forward to seeing your reactions!

Now those are cool!

Thanks for posting those drawings, Bill.

Bob

[al_packer]

It was the doggie door

[Rocket Doctor]

That's right, I forgot about the doggie door, a kitty door here, I got confused......

[gpoehlein]

OUTSTANDING, Bill! :D Those are just too cool for words. Now I can see why you guys were all disgusted by the Goonies! All I can say is, if Phred (Excelsior) ever shows up again, he's GOT to do those decals!!! :p

Greg

[gpoehlein]

It was the doggie door

Given the subject matter, I was figuring it was the loo!

Greg

[Skippy]

A good friend of mine slipped the attached sketches under my door. These are indeed the original sketches by Mike Dorffler and Wayne Kellner. I'm looking forward to seeing your reactions!

Fantastic to see these originals! :p I had the others sussed, but I often wondered what the Sky Shriek was meant to be.

[ScaleNut]

I agree that makes sense now the Sky Shriek's alter ego(the red one in the background) is the red baron ?.. It must be cloned !

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

I have a Saki Bomb drying as we speak. :cool:

[Rocket Doctor]

Is that a Kamasaki ???

[gpoehlein]

I agree that makes sense now the Sky Shriek's alter ego(the red one in the background) is the red baron ?.. It must be cloned ! Based on the fin shape, I'd say the red baron rocket became the Star Snoop. But it looks like they took off two or three fins (I'm betting three - would make sense if it was parodying the Dr1). And the only one that isn't represented anywhere is the Galaxy Guppy - which I'm guessing was a parody of the V2.

Greg

[surdumil]

Thanks so much for posting the sketches, Bill. They're much more animated and imaginative than I was hoping for. They answer questions that I've had around for decades now.

So the Sky Screamer is a cross between a Sopwith Camel and a Triplane! That explains those struts that otherwise seem out of place. The Sky Screamer fin spacing and struts must have come from the Sopwith, the scalloped edges from the Triplane. I'll bet the fin geometry was quite different for the original Triplane concept. The two designs would complement eachother very nicely.

The original concepts are brilliant! I'd love to see these designs in full, unspoiled glory!

Dwayne Surdu-Miller

[surdumil]

Hmm.. On second glance, that's no Triplane. The German plane has the same geometry as the Sopwith Camel, but scalloped trailing edges and different artwork. Cool stuff!

[Gus]

Bill (and friend ;) ),

Thanks for posting those wonderful sketches.

Do you have any idea why the marketing manager took those shapes, specific to certain ideas, and turned them into something else? Were the fin dies already made and production commited to? Why not just turn the "rework artist(s)" loose on completely fresh ideas not tied to any specific shapes?

[Royatl]

A good friend of mine slipped the attached sketches under my door. These are indeed the original sketches by Mike Dorffler and Wayne Kellner. I'm looking forward to seeing your reactions!


Ok, I probably still wouldn't have liked them, but would've understood the Ed "Big Daddy" Roth appeal of them.

In fact, I could see them as sleeker "hot-roddish" parodies.... A bunch of crazed ol' washed up rocket pilots soupin' up their military surplus rides for impromptu races 'twixt here and the moon. Hmm... a little "Cowboy Bebop" meets "Space Cowboys" meets drag race scene from innumerable 1950's teen angst movies.

The Goony's as they were, were just too cute for their own good. Even the similar collections of other things back then had an "edge" to them that the Goony's lacked.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

The Goony's as they were, were just too cute for their own good.

Cute?

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s286/Wallyum/DadandlittleHenryNSL2007.jpg

Define "cute". :p

[Royatl]

Cute?

Define "cute". :p

Trust me, that could've been made a lot more ominous and edgy!

I had a GF who said "oh, those are so cuuuuuutte! Why don't you have any like these?" when she saw the catalog a few years later. She did make a different comment about the Sky Shriek, however. She also had an "alternative" use for an Alpha, which she used to pantomine to my chagrin whenever I'd take her to a launch... "Honey, put that down! There are kids present!!!"

[Ltvscout]

She also had an "alternative" use for an Alpha, which she used to pantomine to my chagrin whenever I'd take her to a launch... "Honey, put that down! There are kids present!!!"
Just keep her way from the rocket wax! ;)

[Phred]

This is just fantastic! Mike told me about these skethches some time ago, but I never thought hat I would see them...

Geeing quite a GOONY myself... I am simply overwhelmed...

:eek:

Thanks for sharing

Phred

[foose4string]

Putting a cockpit on the Cloudhopper sure changes the whole appearance. NOW I want to build a Goony! The rabbit is more kid friendly, PC concept, I suppose, as were most of the final Goony designs. But the original sketches are way cooler than anything that was put out!

[ghrocketman]

Those original sketches are GREAT !
If the Goonybirds were actually those designs (instead of something conjured up by an idiot no-nuthin' about what they are doing OVER-paid for marketing mis-manager) I would have bought them instead of HATED them.

[dtomko]

Those sketches are incredible! It all makes sense now! What a shame, but I still like the goofy goonies they became.

Phred, you really need to do these decals! And a Red Baron version, too!

Drew

[al_packer]

Bill (and friend ;) ),

Thanks for posting those wonderful sketches.

Do you have any idea why the marketing manager took those shapes, specific to certain ideas, and turned them into something else? Were the fin dies already made and production commited to? Why not just turn the "rework artist(s)" loose on completely fresh ideas not tied to any specific shapes?

I don't think the marketing manager VP and his buddy even realized that fin shapes could be changed. My suspiciion is that said VP was on too much of an ego trip.

[dtomko]

Hmmmmm . . . .

So what might the Galaxy Guppy and Star Snoop orginally have been??

Drew

[gpoehlein]

Hmmmmm . . . .

So what might the Galaxy Guppy and Star Snoop orginally have been??

Drew

My guess is that the Galaxy Guppy was a V2. Look at the rocket in the background of the Sopwitter - My theory is that was what became the Star Snoop - the fin shape is right although there seem to be more of them on the Red Barron rocket.

Greg

[lessgravity]

I also got a little Goony.
I just couldn't resist ...

http://rocketry.wordpress.com/files/2007/09/goonie-newsmall.jpg

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

I also got a little Goony.
I just couldn't resist ...

http://rocketry.wordpress.com/files/2007/09/goonie-newsmall.jpg

Did you sim it? It looks great (and I'm amazed at how quickly you finished it,) but is there any chance that it will be stable?

[CPMcGraw]

Did you sim it? It looks great (and I'm amazed at how quickly you finished it,) but is there any chance that it will be stable?

It might be just as stable as the 1940's era prototype... :rolleyes:

...or it's original designers... :eek:

[ARTU]

A good friend of mine slipped the attached sketches under my door. These are indeed the original sketches by Mike Dorffler and Wayne Kellner. I'm looking forward to seeing your reactions!

They are perfect Charactures for that time era,

as during that time CARTOONS was a pre-teen magazine that had Car Charactures just like that ;)

Anyone else remember CARTOONS, the Car magazine that was a cross between MAD and HotRod ?

[kurtschachner]

They are perfect Charactures for that time era,

as during that time CARTOONS was a pre-teen magazine that had Car Charactures just like that ;)

Anyone else remember CARTOONS, the Car magazine that was a cross between MAD and HotRod ?

No, but I am not sure how I missed that one. It was my era and apparently my type of humor:

http://www.georgetrosley.com/cartoons.html

Remember the magazine PLOP?

[pantherjon]

I remember the mag PLOP! :D Man that was one crazy publication!

[Ltvscout]

No, but I am not sure how I missed that one. It was my era and apparently my type of humor:

http://www.georgetrosley.com/cartoons.html

Remember the magazine PLOP?
I don't recall either of those. I guess I lived under a rock. :rolleyes:

[kurtschachner]

I don't recall either of those. I guess I lived under a rock. :rolleyes:

OK, first I will apologize for hijacking this thread. I mean it, really I do.

Then I will post this:

http://thebooberryalarmclock.blogspot.com/2007/01/plop-comics.html

[mperdue]

They are perfect Charactures for that time era,

as during that time CARTOONS was a pre-teen magazine that had Car Charactures just like that ;)

Anyone else remember CARTOONS, the Car magazine that was a cross between MAD and HotRod ?

CARTOONS and CYCLETOONS too. Both were great magazines. I'll bet the designers at Estes read them -a poor attempt to steer this back on topic-

Mario

[Gingerdawg]

They are perfect Charactures for that time era,

as during that time CARTOONS was a pre-teen magazine that had Car Charactures just like that ;)

Anyone else remember CARTOONS, the Car magazine that was a cross between MAD and HotRod ?

They reminded me of Odd Rods, the collector cards which are really similar to the CARtoons.

http://www.oddrods.com/Odd-Rods/index.html

[ScaleNut]

LOL..I had theose stickers everywhere, And Ed <big daddy> Roth was one of my idols.( no not David lee)

.....well I liked him too.

http://www.edroth.com/

[al_packer]

I think Wayne was more influenced by Mad Magazine --
The original Gooney names and graphics were:
Phantom
Saki-Bomb
Der Zepplin'
Goo-Bee Racer
Der Volksbuzzen
Der Baron
Of course, there was the Doctor Demento radio program with the occasional Monty Python piece.
It's kind of like the kid with multiple fathers and no exact DNA match.
I lifted the attached cartoon from a list of kits and their creators that Wayne created a few years ago--I received it from a gent with the Smithsonian. The problem with the list is that it misses the parentage of the pre-Kellner kits.

Bill

[I]This message is composed of only recycled electrons. No atoms were destroyed in its creation

[ARTU]

They reminded me of Odd Rods, the collector cards which are really similar to the CARtoons.

http://www.oddrods.com/Odd-Rods/index.html

Yep, those are what I was thinkin'

I remmeber those and yes, the original drawings of the goony rockets are like Odd' Hot Rods ;)

[Gus]

...I received it from a gent with the Smithsonian...

Bill, Ken, et al,

I have heard several times that collectors with large collections were interviewed by the Smithsonian regarding their collections. The handbook of model rocketry suggests a number of artifacts from the early years of model rocketry were donated to the Smithsonian.

Yet if one queries the Air & Space collection artifact database there are very few model rocketry items listed, and none of any significant import. Searching the collections database for "Estes" or "Centuri" yields no hits at all. Searching on "Stine" yields a couple of kits he donatated, none of which are in any way significant.

Within the museum itself, he only model rockets I saw during a recent visit were a small number of unimpressive kits in a case at the Udvar Hazy.

I'm curious what anybody knows about the Smithsonian's collection, and why so little of it is accessible to the public.

[Rocket Doctor]

From what I understand, there is a very small model rocket display at the Smithsonian, I do have a contact person there, because I'm doing research for an article.

If I get a response from them, I will post it here.
Ken

[Ltvscout]

I'm curious what anybody knows about the Smithsonian's collection, and why so little of it is accessible to the public.
Maybe Kurt can dig Bob Craddock up for us and ask him to join the forum and he can answer those questions. Bob works at the Smithsonian and Kurt is friends with him.

[Initiator001]

When Lee Piester gave his talk at NARAM-48 last year, he mentioned visiting the Smithsonian and examining examples of Centuri products the museum had collected and stored. I think he even had a picture of him posing with a drawer which was open to show the kit packages.

I was in Washington, D.C., four months ago. The Museum on the Mall had NO model rocketry items on display (They did have Quest rockets in the Gift Shop).

The Dulles Annex Museum had a display of space memoralbilia off to the side towards the back and against the wall in the Space Hanger. The two model rocketry items were from over thirty years ago and donated by G. Harry Stine.

One was a COX Nike Zeus rocket still in the packaging but the shrink-wrap was missing. The second item was a MPC Starter Set and it was still in shrink-wrap.

The local NAR Section should see if they can establish contact with someone at the Smithsonian and bring the display up to date.

Bob

[Royatl]

Bill, Ken, et al,

I'm curious what anybody knows about the Smithsonian's collection, and why so little of it is accessible to the public.

Bob Craddock is the guy that worked there a few years ago (may still), and wrote about his visit to Vern and Gleda in Air & Space Magazine. He said he was working on a historical book on model rocketry, which his visit to the Estes' was in support of, but I haven't heard from him in many years.

My understanding was that much of the Stine Collection (maybe all of it) was reclaimed by the Stines, and the collection or part of it is now in the care of the Museum of Flight in Seattle.

[Rocket Doctor]

I have a contact at the Air & Space Museum who I sent an email to asking if they had any model rockets there.

Six months ago I contacted the museum inquiring if they wanted to have a display at their hangar facility, limited response, and, I spoke to the powers to be at Estes about donating product, as you can see, that didn't go anywhere.

As far as Bob Graddock goes, and this is third hand information, supposedly, he had a huge collection of kits given to him by the manufacturers, he was supposed to have used them in his book about the history of model rocketry.

I spoke to Vern and asked about his book, he said he had the first three chapter written and that he should complete the book.

In my opinion, Vern, Bill Simon and Lee Piester should get together to write a book, too bad this wasn't done before the 50th anniversary next year.

I was looking into the possibility of a model rocket museum, and it was pointed out to me that a free standing museum would not survive, it would have to be connected to something else.

So, my solution to that would be, why not have a museum located at Space Camp in Huntsville, you have the location, you have the audiance, it would be a natural fit.

[dtomko]

OK, so the Sky Shriek was originally a Red Baron Fokker, then a British Spad or Camel; the Zoom Broom was a Gee Bee before a Russian Interceptor; and the Galaxy Guppy was a zeppelin. So that leaves the Phantom. I give up. F-4 Phantom????


Drew




I think Wayne was more influenced by Mad Magazine --
The original Gooney names and graphics were:
Phantom
Saki-Bomb
Der Zepplin'
Goo-Bee Racer
Der Volksbuzzen
Der Baron
Of course, there was the Doctor Demento radio program with the occasional Monty Python piece.
It's kind of like the kid with multiple fathers and no exact DNA match.
I lifted the attached cartoon from a list of kits and their creators that Wayne created a few years ago--I received it from a gent with the Smithsonian. The problem with the list is that it misses the parentage of the pre-Kellner kits.

Bill

[I]This message is composed of only recycled electrons. No atoms were destroyed in its creation

[Gus]

When Lee Piester gave his talk at NARAM-48 last year, he mentioned visiting the Smithsonian and examining examples of Centuri products the museum had collected and stored. I think he even had a picture of him posing with a drawer which was open to show the kit packages.

I was in Washington, D.C., four months ago. The Museum on the Mall had NO model rocketry items on display (They did have Quest rockets in the Gift Shop).

The Dulles Annex Museum had a display of space memoralbilia off to the side towards the back and against the wall in the Space Hanger. The two model rocketry items were from over thirty years ago and donated by G. Harry Stine.

One was a COX Nike Zeus rocket still in the packaging but the shrink-wrap was missing. The second item was a MPC Starter Set and it was still in shrink-wrap.

The local NAR Section should see if they can establish contact with someone at the Smithsonian and bring the display up to date.

Bob

Bob,

Lee Piester's talk is the kind of thing I'm curious about. A number of people have suggested the Smithsonian has a collection, and I think most rocketeers would be happy to donate, but there's just no hard evidence such a collection really exists.

Bill's mentioning being given something by "a gent at the Smithsonian" made me wonder again if there really is a holy grail of rocketry collections laying hidden in some basement in Washington. Is there really an El Dorado of model rocketry?

The two items you saw were what I was referencing at the Udvar-Hazy. Each of them is included in the Smithsonian Collections Database (http://www.nasm.si.edu/collections/) which can be searched by the public.

Searching on "Stine" brings up the items on display, but "NAR, Carlisle, Estes, Centuri, Semroc" all yield nothing, which strongly suggests the Smithsonian has almost no real collection.

Interestingly, searching on "VFR" does bring up a nozzle from a one stick repulsor in the collection. So there does appear to be at least an inkling of an understanding of the role played by model rocketeers and rocketry societies in the history of space exploration.

But as of now, I've yet to see evidence the Smithsonian has any significant model rocketry artifact collection, or any interest in collecting any. I have to admit, I think that's really odd.

[Rocket Doctor]

Gus

Please read my post, I have a contact at the Air & Space Museum, I will find out next week what is going on there as far as model rocketry goes

Patience, the question will be answered......

[Initiator001]

Bob,

Lee Piester's talk is the kind of thing I'm curious about. A number of people have suggested the Smithsonian has a collection, and I think most rocketeers would be happy to donate, but there's just no hard evidence such a collection really exists.



Gus,

When Lee Piester spoke at NARAM-48, his wife, Betty, and one of his daughters had made a collage of pictures from Lee's life.

One of the pictures shows Lee at the Smithsonian, wearing gloves, inspecting an open cabinet drawer with model rocket kits.

I took several pictures of that collage and found this picture. I have cropped the image to only show this picture which has lost some resolution. This event took place in 2001.

Bob

[shockwaveriderz]

don't hold your breath waiting for Bob Craddock to help you with anything at the Smithsonian..... He is the person in charge of ANY model rocketry collection that they may have and he guards it like it is Ft. Knox.

The only things I ever got was a photo of the original estes astron spaceplane and a very poor photo of the carlisle mark -1 rock-a chute.

Bob is also a collector of sorts of model rocketry stuff.... if you peruse RMR on the name Bob Craddock you will find a lot of pro and con about the man.

Its my understanding that the STine collection was returned to Bill Stine some time ago., Because all the Smithsonian wanted to do with it was "store" it, never to see the light of day again. Thats one reason Bill did his mini-show at the seattle museum of flight.


The people that I know of who have very large model rocketry collections, not just models, but anything that might have to do with it, is Randy Lieberman and Mark Mayfield. Randy sold a large portion of his collection to Mark. Randy also holds things pretty close to his vest too. Mark on the other hand, has been very open about his collection, at least to me.

SInce there will never probbaly be any major model rocketry exhibit at the Smithsonian, I suggested to various people that perhaps they might consider creating a digital archive and then posting it to the web. To access it you would have to pay a membership fee, with the membership fees going to future perservaytion of model rocketry artifacts.

This way everybody in the world could peruse the digital archive. The idea is that it would encompass the Stine archive, the Estes archive and any personal collectors stuff. Anybody would be able to donate items in the terms of a photograph,etc.

I also thought that since you can now do 3-D on the web pretty easily, that certain artifacts be photographed(?) in 3D so people could get a feel for the real thing.

terry dean
nar 16158

[ARTU]

don't hold your breath waiting for Bob Craddock to help you with anything at the Smithsonian..... He is the person in charge of ANY model rocketry collection that they may have and he guards it like it is Ft. Knox.

The only things I ever got was a photo of the original estes astron spaceplane and a very poor photo of the carlisle mark -1 rock-a chute.

Bob is also a collector of sorts of model rocketry stuff.... if you peruse RMR on the name Bob Craddock you will find a lot of pro and con about the man.

Its my understanding that the STine collection was returned to Bill Stine some time ago., Because all the Smithsonian wanted to do with it was "store" it, never to see the light of day again. Thats one reason Bill did his mini-show at the seattle museum of flight.


The people that I know of who have very large model rocketry collections, not just models, but anything that might have to do with it, is Randy Lieberman and Mark Mayfield. Randy sold a large portion of his collection to Mark. Randy also holds things pretty close to his vest too. Mark on the other hand, has been very open about his collection, at least to me.

SInce there will never probbaly be any major model rocketry exhibit at the Smithsonian, I suggested to various people that perhaps they might consider creating a digital archive and then posting it to the web. To access it you would have to pay a membership fee, with the membership fees going to future perservaytion of model rocketry artifacts.

This way everybody in the world could peruse the digital archive. The idea is that it would encompass the Stine archive, the Estes archive and any personal collectors stuff. Anybody would be able to donate items in the terms of a photograph,etc.

I also thought that since you can now do 3-D on the web pretty easily, that certain artifacts be photographed(?) in 3D so people could get a feel for the real thing.

terry dean
nar 16158

Thanks for the info Terry,

this might also be why Wright Patterson Air Force base has a a better Air Force and Space Museum then the Smithsonian even.

A whole new space and missle building was finished a year ago, now I got to do drive down and see it.

[al_packer]

I have a couple of things I'd like to go to a "real" museum--I'd just as soon not have them get into the hands of a collector where they are bought and sold speculatively like tulip bulbs in 17th century Holland. Likewise, if they go to my "heirs and assigns" they're likely to eventually end up in a dumpster as "just some old model junk".

Unfortunately, museum directors come and go, and often a model rocketry-friendly individual is replaced by someone with an entirely different agenda.

Soooooooooooooo I'd like to hear more thoughts on the subject of a trustworthy model rocket museum.

Bill

[CraigF]

There is no "trustworthy" museum. Any significant one has tons of stuff not on display. We could go way OT here, but PC and politics prevents much important stuff from being displayed. Plus the reasons you mentioned. Never mind budgets for preservation and space for proper display etc.

For MR stuff, I think the best we can hope for is if somebody (the Estes??) leave a trust for something, in perpetuity. In some of my other hobbies, it is only due to the wealth of significant individuals that items are displayed at all, though the Smithsonian displays a few when ~200 years old and obviously of some "national historical significance".

Bob Craddock...he sure could be a pretty crusty guy sometimes. Especially when people weren't offering enough for the (vintage) kits he was selling, LOL! Very knowledgable of course, but always seemed reticent about giving out the "rest of the story", you always knew he was holding stuff back. That is probably good in some ways, least for the bureaucratic mindset, makes you seem "indispensible". He helped me numerous times on projects, I miss the guy.

[lurker01]

So then a collection of say 2,000+ kits spanning late 1959 - ~1980, might be of some interest too the N.A.S.M. or they already have all that stuff? From Initiator001 and his picture, it sure seems to be the case.

Robert

[CraigF]

If you think about it, dispassionately, just what kind of interest would a display of kits have to the general public? Or even to us, if we couldn't pick them up and "rattle the bags" having a closer look? Since that's not likely due to their fragile nature, then access to detailed/good photographs would probably be the best we could expect, an online museum.

There are so many reasons why somebody with an extensive personal collection of rarities wouldn't want to advertise it.

[Initiator001]

Nearly 30 years ago, the NASM had a rather nice display of significant model rocketry items.

Here's a slide I took in 1979 at the NASM when they had a good model rocketry display. A Mark 1, Estes/Schutz B/G prototype, etc.

Now, they don't have anything on display at the Mall museum.

They definately have a large collection of model rocketry items. Maybe the NAR should make some sort of $$$ contribution to the Smithsonian on the condition there is a model rocket display of some sort?

Just a thought.

Bob

[ExEstesGuy]

Just found this site while trying to find out the status of an Estes against an ex-VP lawsuit...


No, the memories would just disappoint you. What should've been the best job in the world ended up being the worst.... I'll leave it at that.
Matt

Ain't that the truth!!

I didn't get to do much rocket stuff, but add me on the designer list for:
The lightning bolt style launch pad (forgot what it was called)
Episode 1 Mini Queen's Ship, CodeName "Garrison"
Episode 1 Quene's Ship, CodeName "Wendy"
2 of the plastic 1/4A Mini's (Now called Super Shot or something)
Co-Designer of the Eagle Boost Glider
Several rockets that never made it (including one that someone just had to be paint in pink latex... :o )
And a bunch of airplane stuff that doesn't apply here.

[Rocket Doctor]

I am trying to get a listing of all the model rockets that the Smithsonian have in storage, the list of kits on display are under the Smithsonain thread below (Rocket Doctor section)

Thjey are also trying to come up with a price of a display case for a display as well, still waiting for a reply.

[5x7]

Found this info in another thread. I would like to add John Boren's (Jumpjet) works to this thread but don't know if the original poster is still around.

Dorffler created the Hyper Bat, Vagabond, Air Commander and Laser Lance. These were his last four models he designed for Estes

Jason created the MIRV

...

[Royatl]

Found this info in another thread. I would like to add John Boren's (Jumpjet) works to this thread but don't know if the original poster is still around.

Also, Rocket Doctor is Ken Montayne (sp).

Dave Meyers has popped up on the Estes Model Rockets group on Facebook and claims basically all the most recent winged stuff up to 2010 (i.e. the RC rocket gliders). I'll see if he'll come over and join.

[Shreadvector]

Also, Rocket Doctor is Ken Montayne (sp).

Dave Meyers has popped up on the Estes Model Rockets group on Facebook and claims basically all the most recent winged stuff up to 2010 (i.e. the RC rocket gliders). I'll see if he'll come over and join.


yes, I saw that and I resisted asking "what about Larry Renger and the Astro Blaster?"


https://stunthanger.com/smf/12-a-building/larry-renger-published-model-designs/


More results when googling...



:D

[tbzep]

Larry has had a pretty long and sweeping hobby career. :cool:

[Royatl]

yes, I saw that and I resisted asking "what about Larry Renger and the Astro Blaster?"


https://stunthanger.com/smf/12-a-building/larry-renger-published-model-designs/


More results when googling...



:D

I'm sure there's probably some kits that were handled at various times by multiple people, or maybe he dealt with a major modificatiion or repackaging? Like Renger claims "Alpha Mark II".

[tbzep]

Also, Rocket Doctor is Ken Montayne (sp).

Dave Meyers has popped up on the Estes Model Rockets group on Facebook and claims basically all the most recent winged stuff up to 2010 (i.e. the RC rocket gliders). I'll see if he'll come over and join.

According to Carl's data at SEMROC, Meyers is credited for:

2075 ARV Condor
2112 Transwing Super Glider
2114 Corkscrew
2116 Sweet Vee R/C Rocket Glider



.

[tbzep]

And Larry Renger, also from SEMROC data:

K-13 Falcon (Estes)
K-6 Hawk (AMROCS)
K101 Hawk (Space Age Industries)
K-2A Mark II (Estes)
K-57 Sky Dart (Estes)
KC-5 Bomarc, pop-pod version (Estes)
0705 X-15 (Estes)
0816 Wolverine (Estes)
0715 X-15 Starter Set (Estes)
2073 Astro-Blaster (Estes)
2090 Strato Blaster (Estes)



.

[ghrocketman]

I believe the Estes K-6 is the Astron Ranger, not some "Hawk" thing.

[tbzep]

I believe the Estes K-6 is the Astron Ranger, not some "Hawk" thing.
I got the AMROCS, Estes, and Space Age Industries mixed up. It's a K-6 AMROCS.

Fixed it.


.

[5x7]

I'm sure there's probably some kits that were handled at various times by multiple people, or maybe he dealt with a major modificatiion or repackaging? Like Renger claims "Alpha Mark II".
What the heck is the Alpha Mark II? Could be the Alpha II? Thats a 70s thing.

[BEC]

Maybe was Alpha II. But that was more Bob Cannon's project. It does make one wonder what Larry was thinking.....

[Royatl]

Haven't gone through the whole thread to see if it was mentioned, but I noticed an item in the August 1971 Model Rocketry magazine (p. 13) where they mentioned that the original Bandit was designed by Mark Kellner (only the Goblin is credited to him in the OP)

[dholvrsn]

I've just read all 13 years and 20 pages of this thread and enjoyed it.

I kind of feel that Estes was lucky to have Kellner and Doerffler back in the good ol' days. One was an art guy that could do gearhead stuff and one was a gearhead that could do art stuff.

[dannymrmissile]

Haven't gone through the whole thread to see if it was mentioned, but I noticed an item in the August 1971 Model Rocketry magazine (p. 13) where they mentioned that the original Bandit was designed by Mark Kellner (only the Goblin is credited to him in the OP). TRUE. Because this is what I do,,, heres documentation on the kit......
Still, in re looking at the Goblin, he is given no credit. As you see, just the Estes R & D Staff. Guess he got shorted ?!
Danny.

[samb]

The Launch magazine interview with Bill Simon has a list of models attributed to Estes designers, 1961 - 1980, compiled by Wayne Kellner.

In that list, Wayne gets the Goblin. Mark gets Teros and Marauder. The Bandit is missing from this list.

Bill says he left Estes in 1977 due to family reasons.

Reelin' in the years. :)

http://vernestes.com/images/LAUNCH%20Articles/Launch%20-%20Bill%20Simon%20Interview-Correccted.pdf

[5x7]

Boy I completely forgot about those Early ones that were started by Dorffler, then finished by me. This should be everything else designed by someone other then me up to actually this point and time. In addition to the kits I've also done the two new launch controllers and all the new plastic accessories, including the E2X plastic stuff, plus lots of other small things here and there. I've also done all the bring backs which in most cases are more work for me to do then starting from scratch.


Air Commander- Mike Dorffler
Laser Lance- Mike Dorffler
Vagabond- Mike Dorfller
Hyper Bat- Mike Dorffler


Rouge Voyager - Mike Zaborowski-Hobbico
Astron Sprint XL- Mike Zaborowski-Hobbico
Astron II Launch Pad- Mike Zaborowski-Hobbico

MERV- Jason ?


John Boren

This is John Boren Saying he designed everything (note that marketing sometimes does decor) except what is in this post, in the Hobbico Era from 2010 to when the Langford's bought Estes in April 2018. I assume he is still there but don't know if he is designing everything now.

[Royatl]

This is John Boren Saying he designed everything (note that marketing sometimes does decor) except what is in this post, in the Hobbico Era from 2010 to when the Langford's bought Estes in April 2018. I assume he is still there but don't know if he is designing everything now.

Yes, he's still there, and I haven't seen anything on Indeed.com that indicates they've hired anyone specifically to design kits. Bill Stine, of course, has the experience to do that so he may have more direct input to some kits now. They did hire the guy who did the Saturn V painting (poster, catalog cover, 1/200th package) to come up with new design concepts

[Royatl]

Here's a new tidbit. In a discussion on Facebook where JimZ notes a discrepancy in the instructions of two versions of Alien Invader (dihedral in original version, none in later version), John Boren says Mike Dorffler "probably" designed the original, and definitely did the work on the later bring-back.

[mojo1986]

Here's a new tidbit. In a discussion on Facebook where JimZ notes a discrepancy in the instructions of two versions of Alien Invader (dihedral in original version, none in later version), John Boren says Mike Dorffler "probably" designed the original, and definitely did the work on the later bring-back.


Just to be clear, I think you're talking about the Invader, not the Alien Invader.

[Royatl]

Just to be clear, I think you're talking about the Invader, not the Alien Invader.

Definitely the Alien Invader. #1281 and #3003

[Royatl]

Definitely the Alien Invader. #1281 and #3003

The Invader was before Dorffler’s time and has never been “bring back”

[ghrocketman]

The Astron Invader was a "looping disaster" that was only in the catalog about 1.5 years.
My recollection of the BMS clone reissue had no better flight characteristics.
Looks really neat, flies LOUSY.
Maybe if fitted with micro r/c equipment that could be corrected out of the boost with a bunch of down elevator.
Not gonna be me trying it though.

Maybe burkefj (Frank) could try this one...

[ghrocketman]

Yes it looks like a silver plate with a fixed pod on top.

[mwtoelle]

The plans for it appeared in the Model Rocketeer in late 1981. The Invader was also referred to as the "Estes Pie Plate". There were some people that actually got it fly successfully, but I agree with gh that it would take R/C equipment to get it to work for most people.

[LeeR]

I was a childhood prodigy when it came to the Invader. Mine flew beautifully, circling the launch field until touchdown. My good friend Rob built his with no dihedral, and it glided just fine, but inverted.

I lost my gift for building these as an adult. Using the templates from my original kit, several attempts to recreate it ended disastrously on maiden flights.

:)

[Chas Russell]

I wonder if the decades of differences in the balsa densities affect the flight profiles?
I designed the Fly Baby B B/G in the early '70s and have had wonderful flights on all of my builds. Others have sworn by them over the decades and others have sworn at them.

https://www.nar.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/FlyBaby-B-BG-Russell.pdf

As balsa has gone into ships and wind turbine blades, it is F'ng tough to get good contest balsa. SIG recently got a large shipment of balsa, but I haven't looked to see what they offer. My local family owned hobby shop hasn't had decent contest balsa in too many years.

Chas

[ghrocketman]

I was just going to suggest the same thing as Chas.
Balsa Density.
Most that one can commonly find nowadays is far too dense and hard.
Being able to consistently get decent contest balsa has been gone for at least a decade.
Way too much is used for idiotic wind turbine blade cores.
If I cut fins out for a scratch-build clone, I now generally use the next thinner size in basswood.
Finishes easier and is almost as easy to cut with a razor saw or sharp #24 blade in an Xacto #6 handle.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

gh, does it look like a plate?

You be the judge. The attached pic is my nephew holding my Invader after it looped into the only power line on the field.

[ghrocketman]

Well, it DID look like a plate before THAT.

[Royatl]

Ok guys the subject of this sub-thread was the ALIEN INVADER, not the Astron Invader.

Thanks for your attention.

[dannymrmissile]

Bill, I’ve never seen the Estes one, but I’ve seen the BMS Clone of it.
Finally !

[Ltvscout]

I believe the Rocket Doctor (Identity Unknown) is Ken Montanye, who passed away not to long ago.
That is correct. Rocket Doctor was Ken Montanye. Ken had me setup the Ask the Doctor section here on YORF years ago when he was still active in the hobby.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Well, it DID look like a plate before THAT.
I've eaten off worse plates. :rolleyes:

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Ok guys the subject of this sub-thread was the ALIEN INVADER, not the Astron Invader.

Thanks for your attention.
Oh, forgive us, your worship.

[ghrocketman]

Ditto to EXACTLY what you just said above, Bill.

Reminds me of a certain "Big Bang Theory" character.

[LeeR]

Since we are on the subject of Astron Invader, here is a picture from the early 60s. My Invader is at the back, leaning against the wall. Silver tips on the plate, black down the middle, red fins. Also a bit of checkerboard. I think I was trying to use up the sheet. Bits and pieces on a number of rockets. And names on about everything. I think I still have that decal sheet with a couple remaining letters. After over 50 years, I wonder how well they slide off the paper backing? :)

[Earl]

Here's a new tidbit. In a discussion on Facebook where JimZ notes a discrepancy in the instructions of two versions of Alien Invader (dihedral in original version, none in later version), John Boren says Mike Dorffler "probably" designed the original, and definitely did the work on the later bring-back.

Was there any discussion on why the change to no dihedral in later versions?

Earl

[ghrocketman]

Eliminating dihedral that is not required for stable flight would simplify construction.

[jetlag]

My Astron Invader flew (launched) like crap. Retired mine after 3 awful fails.
I've flown all sorts of model aircraft from hand built free flight to 1/3 scale seaplanes, yet I could not get the Astron Invader to fly straight, let alone launch straight. Just a looping death dive each time.

[ghrocketman]

Sounds like a "prank" flight profile I'd design.
"Let's watch these goons try to get THIS THING to fly..."

[Earl]

Eliminating dihedral that is not required for stable flight would simplify construction.

Yeah, understand that but I was wondering if Dorffler's reasoning was the same or if it was driven by some other reason.

Earl