New Estes Alpha Paint Scheme

[Initiator001]

I was out visiting several local hobby shops this Fourth of July.

As I went through one stores small rocket display I noticed the new packaging for several Estes kits.

I stopped and looked at an Alpha kit and realized there had been a change in the finishing scheme.

It was the same body tube and fin colors along with decals.

However, the nosecone was painted...WHITE!

Huh?!

What's going on in Penrose? :confused: ;)

[Newbomb Turk]

Heresy! I may only buy one or two because of this. I have a clone with a vintage nose cone in the 60's (I think) finish with the stars and bars and one finished in the 80's red and black.

[tbzep]

That same red, white, and blue paint scheme and decal first appeared in 1991, albeit with a red nosecone. The same scheme and decal in red and black was available from 1982-1990.

[BEC]

Bob,

Did the box rendering show the motor tube sticking out the aft end of the rocket by 1/4 inch? That's what the current instructions have one do (though I don't have any idea why).

I wonder, too, looking at what you posted, if the nose cone has changed again.....

On the red/white/blue color scheme.....sometimes the colored fin is shown blue, sometimes red. And of course at some point the markings went from waterslide deals to peel-n-stick. I'm not sure when that happened. One of the many Alpha evolution things I'd like to lay out on a time line in this 50th anniversary year of the Alpha kit.

[blackshire]

Bob,

Did the box rendering show the motor tube sticking out the aft end of the rocket by 1/4 inch? That's what the current instructions have one do (though I don't have any idea why).

I wonder, too, looking at what you posted, if the nose cone has changed again.....

On the red/white/blue color scheme.....sometimes the colored fin is shown blue, sometimes red. And of course at some point the markings went from waterslide deals to peel-n-stick. I'm not sure when that happened. One of the many Alpha evolution things I'd like to lay out on a time line in this 50th anniversary year of the Alpha kit....And speaking of the Alpha fins, has their planform been slightly "tweaked" again? (I have no particular reason to think so, but the 1/4"-protruding motor mount tube that you mentioned--which is puzzling to me as well--got me wondering...)

[Rex R]

I discovered a possible reason for the protruding motor mount tube (and a solution). the (now) stock motor hook is too wide to allow for the tube to be flush, one can't get a motor in or out of the tube. fortunately semroc/erockets has old style motor hooks that will work.
Rex

[pterodactyl]

....and one of the reasons Bernard is putting together a timeline on the Alpha is that the Museum of Flight is holding a 50th anniversary celebration workshop and fun fly on the weekend of September 23 and 24th.

Special guest and Alpha designer Bill Simon will be the guest of honor!

[BEC]

...And speaking of the Alpha fins, has their planform been slightly "tweaked" again? (I have no particular reason to think so, but the 1/4"-protruding motor mount tube that you mentioned--which is puzzling to me as well--got me wondering...)

Jason,

I have a bulk box of very recent Alphas (using it to plan for what Pat commented on just above) and the fins appear to be the same planform as they have had since they went to laser cut. That planform IS different than the die-cut version , which is VERY close to the original SP-25 pattern.


I guess I'm going to have to see if I can find one in the new style packaging that Bob reported on. I've seen that packaging for awhile at my local Hobby Lobby - but they don't carry the Alpha. So maybe HobbyTown.....

[JumpJet]

Hopefully by the next production run the nose cone will again be Red like it used to be. Looks like we have a Collectable here. By them ALL while you can. ;)



John Boren

[Jerry Irvine]

By them ALL while you can. ;) John BorenThat might be the entire point. :D

My very first model rocket was an Estes Alpha on a B6-4.

[BEC]

Hopefully by the next production run the nose cone will again be Red like it used to be.

John Boren

I presume you mean the header card art....since the blow-molded nose cones themselves have all been white (so far as I know, anyway). :)

[LeeR]

The change gives one hope that the Halloween colors of the Alpha III could someday change ...

Unti then, here is how I do them. :)

[JumpJet]

I presume you mean the header card


Yes




John Boren

[blackshire]

I discovered a possible reason for the protruding motor mount tube (and a solution). the (now) stock motor hook is too wide to allow for the tube to be flush, one can't get a motor in or out of the tube. fortunately semroc/erockets has old style motor hooks that will work.
RexThank you--that makes sense. I couldn't see them "changing it just for the sake of novelty," as is done occasionally for decor schemes.

[blackshire]

Jason,

I have a bulk box of very recent Alphas (using it to plan for what Pat commented on just above) and the fins appear to be the same planform as they have had since they went to laser cut. That planform IS different than the die-cut version , which is VERY close to the original SP-25 pattern.Thank you for confirming that (that the fin planform *hasn't* changed since they went to laser-cut fins).I guess I'm going to have to see if I can find one in the new style packaging that Bob reported on. I've seen that packaging for awhile at my local Hobby Lobby - but they don't carry the Alpha. So maybe HobbyTown.....Yes! I agree with John Boren that this brief "decor scheme & kit header aberration" will make these particular Alpha kits collectors' items (for the same reason that short runs of accidentally upside-down printed postage stamps become collectors' items; they're so rare). And:

Thanks to pterodactyl for covering your Alpha 50th Anniversary project for the Museum of Flight! (Estes could possibly provide a batch of Alpha kits [although Alpha IIIs would be easier] as "Make It, Take It" rockets for the fun fly that will be part of the event--that might be a combination PR *and* tax write-off possibility for them...)

[BEC]

We're going to do regular Alphas rather than IIIs....the III's 50th anniversary is a few years off yet, and sadly we can't invite Mike Dorffler to attend when that comes around in - what - 2022? I will have to figure out how to build one safely in about an hour and a half, but I think I can do that.

I'm not quite sure I agree with Rex about the motor hook. I put a recent Alpha together from the bulk box I alluded to above (date code on the box from sometime last year - and showing the projecting motor tube in the instructions) and I built it with the motor tube flush with the aft end of the body. It is true that you have to pull the motor hook out far enough to flex the main BT a little to get a motor in or out, but it's certainly not impossible. However, pulling the mount aft would obviate the need to flex the BT-50....and gain a precious 1/4 inch of space in the body for wadding/chute.

(it really gets tight in there to add a PerfectFlite FireFly as well....but it can be done. I have an older bulk-kit Alpha from six years ago - awful soft blue motor tube - that has the motor mount flush with the aft end - and it has a couple of dozen flights with a FireFy aboard now. But...I have to pack the 'chute really tightly and it doesn't always open. Substituting a Semroc 12 inches has helped.)

[LeeR]

[...]

I'm not quite sure I agree with Lee about the motor hook.
[...]
That wasn't me! It was my twin brother Rex R!

[BEC]

Lee, edited my post.

I will say that Rex's rationale seems plausible. The motor hooks with the finger tabs do need to go over further to install/remove a motor and maybe someone at Estes (before John Boren) decided that momentarily deforming the base of the body tube to get the motor in or out was not a good idea for the target users of the kit.

The details of the motor mount assembly have changed several times that I know of and I'm still gathering data for where I have gaps in the chronology. But this last change - to push the motor mount assembly aft 1/4 inch - is pretty recent. It's happened in the last handful of years.

The reason I asked Bob Sanford about the face card of that new packaging is that up to the latest ones I've see, the projecting motor tube is not shown in the illustrations. Instead it's flush to the aft end of the body tube as it has been since the beginning of the Alpha. Yet more minutiae..... :D

[Initiator001]

Bob,

Did the box rendering show the motor tube sticking out the aft end of the rocket by 1/4 inch? That's what the current instructions have one do (though I don't have any idea why).

I wonder, too, looking at what you posted, if the nose cone has changed again.....

On the red/white/blue color scheme.....sometimes the colored fin is shown blue, sometimes red. And of course at some point the markings went from waterslide deals to peel-n-stick. I'm not sure when that happened. One of the many Alpha evolution things I'd like to lay out on a time line in this 50th anniversary year of the Alpha kit.

The facer card does not appear to show the motor tube extending out the aft end of the model.

I don't know if the shape of the Alpha nose cone has changed. The last Alpha I built was in the early 1970s and that model had a balsa nose cone plus I had to cut the fins out of a sheet of balsa. ;) :D

I look forward to your postings concerning the 50th anniversary of the Alpha.

[BEC]

Bob,

OK - thanks.

I'm starting on this huge spreadsheet that will be based on using each different version of the instructions for the rows to try to lay all this out. That's the only way I'm going to even be able to try to keep it all straight.

Even the K-25 Alpha (BNC-50K, cut your own fins) has at least two different motor mount arrangements. Since then the big changes were die cut, then laser cut fins, going to a blow-molded nose cone (at least two shapes at different times) and several motor mount variations. And then there's the livery changes, culminating (for now) in the one you started this thread with.

I flew a BNC-50K/cut your own fins by tracing around the SP-25 pattern Alpha at NSL, done up in the simple two-color livery, but substituting the white with gold for the 50th year. That one was a little hard to find on the ground.... :eek: Parts for it came mostly from a late 1960's kit I got on eBay but which arrived with a crushed main body tube. Fortunately the one constant for all Alpha variations I've seen is a 7.75 inch-long BT-50 for the body.

Note to others reading this: by "Alpha" in this context I mean the K-25, later 1225 Alpha and it's bulk-packaged and starter/launch set packaged compatriots and not Alpha II, III, or IV (though I believe the Alpha IIs all have 7.75 inch BT-50s as the main body as well).

[LeeR]

Lee, edited my post.

I will say that Rex's rationale seems plausible. The motor hooks with the finger tabs do need to go over further to install/remove a motor and maybe someone at Estes (before John Boren) decided that momentarily deforming the base of the body tube to get the motor in or out was not a good idea for the target users of the kit.

The details of the motor mount assembly have changed several times that I know of and I'm still gathering data for where I have gaps in the chronology. But this last change - to push the motor mount assembly aft 1/4 inch - is pretty recent. It's happened in the last handful of years.

The reason I asked Bob Sanford about the face card of that new packaging is that up to the latest ones I've see, the projecting motor tube is not shown in the illustrations. Instead it's flush to the aft end of the body tube as it has been since the beginning of the Alpha. Yet more minutiae..... :D

Bernard,

No big deal on mentioning me instead of Rex ...

I recently pulled out an old Semroc kit I'd received free years ago, and I had started the build and then put it away. I just pulled it out of storage a few days ago and was surprised to see that it was built with the motor tube flush with the aft end, and it was very difficult to pull the motor hook out enough to slide in the motor, since the hook hits the main tube and requires some deforming. I find it harder and harder to grab the ends of those old-style hooks on small rockets. Ahhh, the ravages of old age ...

[mwtoelle]

We're going to do regular Alphas rather than IIIs....the III's 50th anniversary is a few years off yet, and sadly we can't invite Mike Dorffler to attend when that comes around in - what - 2022? I will have to figure out how to build one safely in about an hour and a half, but I think I can do that.

The Alpha III (K-56) was released in 1971 and first appeared in catalog no. 711. It did not get the roll patterns/Estes logo decor scheme until 1973.

[BEC]

Thanks Mike. So 2021 will be the 50th year for the Alpha III.

I cringed and paid full retail ($16.99) at HobbyTown this afternoon for an Alpha with the new face card like the one Bob posted to start this thread. Without actually removing the contents from the package, the rocket parts look identical to the last few iterations. Same nose cone, same big thick "centering cylinder" for the motor mount and so forth.

Lee - I have mixed feelings about the motor hooks with the big finger tab on them myself - for the same reason as you suggest.

[blackshire]

Here (see "Building the Astron Alpha": http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/69est050.html ) is one of the K-25 Alpha motor mount configurations, from the 1969 Estes catalog (see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/69est010.html ). Instead of having a fully-notched rear centering ring, this variant used a solid rear centering ring (which the builder partially-notched to fit the motor clip) that was glued in place nearly halfway up the motor mount tube.Bob,

OK - thanks.

I'm starting on this huge spreadsheet that will be based on using each different version of the instructions for the rows to try to lay all this out. That's the only way I'm going to even be able to try to keep it all straight.

Even the K-25 Alpha (BNC-50K, cut your own fins) has at least two different motor mount arrangements. Since then the big changes were die cut, then laser cut fins, going to a blow-molded nose cone (at least two shapes at different times) and several motor mount variations. And then there's the livery changes, culminating (for now) in the one you started this thread with.

I flew a BNC-50K/cut your own fins by tracing around the SP-25 pattern Alpha at NSL, done up in the simple two-color livery, but substituting the white with gold for the 50th year. That one was a little hard to find on the ground.... :eek: Parts for it came mostly from a late 1960's kit I got on eBay but which arrived with a crushed main body tube. Fortunately the one constant for all Alpha variations I've seen is a 7.75 inch-long BT-50 for the body.

Note to others reading this: by "Alpha" in this context I mean the K-25, later 1225 Alpha and it's bulk-packaged and starter/launch set packaged compatriots and not Alpha II, III, or IV (though I believe the Alpha IIs all have 7.75 inch BT-50s as the main body as well).

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Bernard,

No big deal on mentioning me instead of Rex ...

I recently pulled out an old Semroc kit I'd received free years ago, and I had started the build and then put it away. I just pulled it out of storage a few days ago and was surprised to see that it was built with the motor tube flush with the aft end, and it was very difficult to pull the motor hook out enough to slide in the motor, since the hook hits the main tube and requires some deforming. I find it harder and harder to grab the ends of those old-style hooks on small rockets. Ahhh, the ravages of old age ...
Could be worse. You could be new age. ;)

[BEC]

Here (see "Building the Astron Alpha": http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/69est050.html ) is one of the K-25 Alpha motor mount configurations, from the 1969 Estes catalog (see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/69est010.html ). Instead of having a fully-notched rear centering ring, this variant used a solid rear centering ring (which the builder partially-notched to fit the motor clip) that was glued in place nearly halfway up the motor mount tube.

Jason,

I have the original instructions for the first Alpha I built (probably in 1968 or 1969), which has the thin centering rings for the motor mount. I also have copies of later versions that show the thicker ones arranged as shown in the yellow "Model Rocket Manual" pages in some catalogs. That arrangement was pretty much the way it was done until the big thick single cylinder was introduced....sometime after the nose cone became plastic and the fins were being die cut.

That arrangement - as shown in your link - is actually the way I prefer to do it when I build an Alpha.....

NOTE: the fin pattern on that catalog page is NOT quite right. Or at least it doesn't quite match the SP-25 pattern, the shape of the subsequent die cut fins (which are very close the SP-25 pattern) or the current laser cut fins (which are slightly smaller and with more sweep). However, if you order laser cut K-25 fins from Semroc, that's the shape you will get (unless Randy Boadway has changed the cut files after he bought Semroc). Fin shapes are a whole 'nother long discussion :eek:

[blackshire]

Jason,

I have the original instructions for the first Alpha I built (probably in 1968 or 1969), which has the thin centering rings for the motor mount. I also have copies of later versions that show the thicker ones arranged as shown in the yellow "Model Rocket Manual" pages in some catalogs. That arrangement was pretty much the way it was done until the big thick single cylinder was introduced....sometime after the nose cone became plastic and the fins were being die cut.

That arrangement - as shown in your link - is actually the way I prefer to do it when I build an Alpha.....

NOTE: the fin pattern on that catalog page is NOT quite right. Or at least it doesn't quite match the SP-25 pattern, the shape of the subsequent die cut fins (which are very close the SP-25 pattern) or the current laser cut fins (which are slightly smaller and with more sweep). However, if you order laser cut K-25 fins from Semroc, that's the shape you will get (unless Randy Boadway has changed the cut files after he bought Semroc). Fin shapes are a whole 'nother long discussion :eek:By "thin centering rings," do you mean the flat white card stock ones that--in kits such as the Astron Farside--were often glued to the BT-20 motor mount tube *and* to a BT-50 stage coupler?

I always preferred that "two doughnut-type centering rings" kind of motor mount as well (the "modern" [but anything *but* better] thick, heavy BT-20 to BT-50 motor mount 'centering sleeve' is only fit to be cut into multiple "doughnut-type" centering rings).

That "yellow catalog pages Alpha fin planform" sounds like yet another variation to add to the history mix... I wonder if that particular Alpha (those yellow pages are from the "Model Rocket Manual" catalog insert, which begins here: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/69est048.html ) was, back then, a sort of "school bulk rocket," where teachers would buy batches of Alpha parts and use those Alpha plans (with that included fin pattern) so that the kids could build their rockets? (I wonder this because in those days, a lot of people around the country had to buy model rocket supplies and building supplies by mail order--that 1969 catalog also offered paint, glue, sandpaper, hobby knives, and Photo-Flash "D" batteries for that reason.)

[K'Tesh]

While personally I like the red and black livery the most, I have to say that I really like the new look.

[tbzep]

I discovered a possible reason for the protruding motor mount tube (and a solution). the (now) stock motor hook is too wide to allow for the tube to be flush, one can't get a motor in or out of the tube. fortunately semroc/erockets has old style motor hooks that will work.
Rex
Just cut the finger tab off and flip it around to the other end. I do that by the dozens when we build E2X Generic rockets at our school.

[BEC]

By "thin centering rings," do you mean the flat white card stock ones that--in kits such as the Astron Farside--were often glued to the BT-20 motor mount tube *and* to a BT-50 stage coupler?

Yes, exactly. I can never keep straight which is RA-2050 and which is AR-2050 which is why I didn't call them out. The very first Alpha version used the thin rings. I have the instruction sheet from my first which shows the model this way. (see attached scan)

I built a clone earlier this year in that fashion and painted it in the suggested color scheme. It has been flown a couple of times and I am planning to ask Bill Simon to autograph that one at the September affair at the MoF. I will then put it up on the shelf next to the models I have signed by the Estes', Carl McLawhorn and Lee Piester.

I always preferred that "two doughnut-type centering rings" kind of motor mount as well (the "modern" [but anything *but* better] thick, heavy BT-20 to BT-50 motor mount 'centering sleeve' is only fit to be cut into multiple "doughnut-type" centering rings).

YES! Though I haven't actually take a razor saw to the "centering sleeve" yet....but have thought about it. The one advantage it has is speed of assembly. In a model like the Generic E2X or Skywriter, which also both use it, it makes a little more sense based on how those go together with the fin unit, but in an Alpha - no.

That "yellow catalog pages Alpha fin planform" sounds like yet another variation to add to the history mix... I wonder if that particular Alpha (those yellow pages are from the "Model Rocket Manual" catalog insert, which begins here: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/69est048.html ) was, back then, a sort of "school bulk rocket," where teachers would buy batches of Alpha parts and use those Alpha plans (with that included fin pattern) so that the kids could build their rockets? (I wonder this because in those days, a lot of people around the country had to buy model rocket supplies and building supplies by mail order--that 1969 catalog also offered paint, glue, sandpaper, hobby knives, and Photo-Flash "D" batteries for that reason.)

Interesting idea - using that fin pattern and bulk body tubes, etc. in a school setting rather than buying actual Alpha (or Alpha II) kits. I've never actually seen Alpha IIs in a catalog, but know they were aimed at the educational market. In some forms they were identical to contemporary Alphas and in at least one case I think I can document they led the evolution of the Alpha with the introduction of die-cut fins and later plastic nose cones vs. BNC-50Ks. Perhaps I'll go down that rabbit hole *after* I get the main Alpha line understood as well as I can....

[tbzep]

(I wonder this because in those days, a lot of people around the country had to buy model rocket supplies and building supplies by mail order--that 1969 catalog also offered paint, glue, sandpaper, hobby knives, and Photo-Flash "D" batteries for that reason.)
I ordered some rockets for my daughter from Estes and picked up some epoxy to tip the total into free shipping. Felt like the good old days!

:cool:


.

[Royatl]

I was lucky enough to buy a bunch of red and black livery (and therefore, original shaped pnc-50K nose) Alphas three years or so ago on eBay just before I had to stop buying anything on eBay.

I also have two or three yellow card K-25/1225 balsa nose Alphas.

I'm hoping they all made it through the move and didn't get dumped when I missed the deadline. I've seen three or four of them while looking through boxes as I've been unpacking.

There is only one fin shape for the Alpha. That fin shape has persisted since early days (photogrammetry confirming dimensions in an old issue of Model Rocket News, before Astron Alpha was commercially available.) through the die mashed and laser cut versions (proportions were same if dimensions were a few hundredths off) and even the plastic Alpha III.

The aberration that was the Technical Section Yellow Pages Alpha was perfectly understandable as the only way to fit a pattern on the page. It is unfortunate that Carl took that as definitive.

Never liked the light blue of the post red & black decals (would probably have been OK if they were navy blue)

I really wish the old nose shape would return, but I recognize that the current shape has been around so long that many consider it the *real* Alpha shape.

[LeeR]

Could be worse. You could be new age. ;)

New age is definitely not part of my DNA. :)

[LeeR]

I don't think it was mentioned, but if it was, I apologize. Are the current plastic nose cones for the Alpha the same profile as the original balsa nose cones?

I seem to remember thinking the nose cones on the Alpha III I used for school builds back in the 90s looked slightly different. I had an old BNC-50K (which I believe is the original Alpha cone) and used that as a model to turn a new balsa nose cone for the Super Alpha kit a few years ago. My kit had the overly long (and rounded tip) plastic nose cone and a shortened body tube to make it roughly the correct length.

I did use the included motor mount parts and decal! :)

[BEC]

Roy,

Agree on the nose cone shape. The PNC-50Ks are very close to the balsa original and noticeably different from the later/current one.

On fin shapes: Here are pictures I just took. Note that the die cut fin matches SP-25 (at the outside of the lines) exactly but the current laser-cut fin in Estes kits has a slightly shorter span and different tip sweep. Also shown is the Semroc fin both on SP-25 (clearly a different shape) and on the yellow catalog page (where it matches exactly).

For all of these I tried to line up the root and the leading edge.

I'll worry about Alpha IIIs later....but those fins are VERY close to the original SP-25.

Lee - there have been two shapes of the blow-molded Alpha cones, as alluded to above. The current one is more tapered, the former one is very close to the balsa cone.

On THAT subject: Semroc BNC-50Ks are close but not quite as sharply pointed. BMS BNC-50Ks are closer to the Alpha III cone in shape.....

But as far as I know, the Alpha III shape is the same regardless of version, original red, current orange, clear (Phantom), black (Alpha IV) and (I presume) white or chromed (Quasar). I've never seen a chrome Quasar cone in person.

[Doug Sams]

There is only one fin shape for the Alpha. I've see two: The shape as designed by Estes.

And the shape caused by young newbs incorrectly gluing the trailing edge to the tube in a sort of upside down fashion :)

Doug

.

[BEC]

I've see two: The shape as designed by Estes.

And the shape caused by young newbs incorrectly gluing the trailing edge to the tube in a sort of upside down fashion :)



....with the trailing edge used as the root. Which is of course why the little die cut dot and the larger laser-cut hole is in Alpha fins now to mark the root edge. Not that everyone pays attention to that.

It's that little hole that convinced me that the current Super Nova two-stager just uses Alpha fin sets.

[Doug Sams]

I don't think it was mentioned, but if it was, I apologize. Are the current plastic nose cones for the Alpha the same profile as the original balsa nose cones?

I seem to remember thinking the nose cones on the Alpha III I used for school builds back in the 90s looked slightly different. I had an old BNC-50K (which I believe is the original Alpha cone) and used that as a model to turn a new balsa nose cone for the Super Alpha kit a few years ago. My kit had the overly long (and rounded tip) plastic nose cone and a shortened body tube to make it roughly the correct length.

I did use the included motor mount parts and decal! :)My ~1969 Alpha has a balsa cone with a nice, sharp tip. Similarly, my 1999 Alpha has a plastic cone, also with a nice sharp tip, but the cone is somewhat slimmer just aft of the tip than is the balsa. It has a bit different shape.

My daughter's orange Alpha III cone has a rounded tip, much less pointy than either of the others. FWIW.

Doug

.

[tbzep]

I don't think it was mentioned, but if it was, I apologize. Are the current plastic nose cones for the Alpha the same profile as the original balsa nose cones?

I used to have photos on YORF showing the difference in the nosecones. No thanks to crappy Photobucket, they are not online any more.

So...here they are again.

On left a 2008 BNC-50K from Semroc which is very close if not identical to the profile of the early Estes nose cone, center PNC-50K, on right was the BMS version of BNC-50K in 2008, which is actually the balsa equivalent of the Alpha III nosecone. I threw it in the pic just to show what you'd end up with if you ordered it from BMS at the time.

There was a plastic cone shaped like the balsa one on the left at one time. I've seen them in old Alpha II kits. It is my understanding that they were in X-Ray kits at one time too.

https://i.imgbox.com/zuGMxO6l.jpg

[Royatl]

Roy,

Agree on the nose cone shape. The PNC-50Ks are very close to the balsa original and noticeably different from the later/current one.

On fin shapes: Here are pictures I just took. Note that the die cut fin matches SP-25 (at the outside of the lines) exactly but the current laser-cut fin in Estes kits has a slightly shorter span and different tip sweep. Also shown is the Semroc fin both on SP-25 (clearly a different shape) and on the yellow catalog page (where it matches exactly).

For all of these I tried to line up the root and the leading edge.

I'll worry about Alpha IIIs later....but those fins are VERY close to the original SP-25.

Lee - there have been two shapes of the blow-molded Alpha cones, as alluded to above. The current one is more tapered, the former one is very close to the balsa cone.

On THAT subject: Semroc BNC-50Ks are close but not quite as sharply pointed. BMS BNC-50Ks are closer to the Alpha III cone in shape.....

But as far as I know, the Alpha III shape is the same regardless of version, original red, current orange, clear (Phantom), black (Alpha IV) and (I presume) white or chromed (Quasar). I've never seen a chrome Quasar cone in person.

The 2016 fin I won't quibble about *too* much, since leading and trailing edge sweeps and root chord are correct.

The old balsa noses were always a bit dodgy due to wear and tear on the plunge grinder. The original plastic nose was a decent approximation. The newer nose is a proper mathematical ogive, but *not* the old shape.

And yes, you're correct about the Alpha III nose. Chrome Quasar was just an Alpha III nose, chromed. As the fins were Alpha III fins, clipped and chromed (though the clipping was probably done at the mold and not post production).

[Royatl]

I've see two: The shape as designed by Estes.

And the shape caused by young newbs incorrectly gluing the trailing edge to the tube in a sort of upside down fashion :)

Doug

.

No no, they just got confused and thought they were building a Centuri Astro-1 !

Unless, you're describing something looking more like a fork :)

[Doug Sams]

On left a 2008 BNC-50K from Semroc which is very close if not identical to the profile of the early Estes nose cone, center PNC-50K, on right was the BMS version of BNC-50K in 2008, which is actually the balsa equivalent of the Alpha III nosecone. I threw it in the pic just to show what you'd end up with if you ordered it from BMS at the time. <snip pic>

Those 3 cones have exactly the shapes I was describing in post 38 (http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showpost.php?p=214956&postcount=38).

The balsa cone has the identical shape of the orange, plastic Alpha III cone.

Doug

.

[LeeR]

I used to have photos on YORF showing the difference in the nosecones. No thanks to crappy Photobucket, they are not online any more.

So...here they are again.

On left a 2008 BNC-50K from Semroc which is very close if not identical to the profile of the early Estes nose cone, center PNC-50K, on right was the BMS version of BNC-50K in 2008, which is actually the balsa equivalent of the Alpha III nosecone. I threw it in the pic just to show what you'd end up with if you ordered it from BMS at the time.

There was a plastic cone shaped like the balsa one on the left at one time. I've seen them in old Alpha II kits. It is my understanding that they were in X-Ray kits at one time too.

https://i.imgbox.com/zuGMxO6l.jpg

Viewed separately, and maybe from afar, they are reasonably close. But seeing all three, I like the "fatter" two on the outside, with the top nod going to the one on the right. The one in the middle just doesn't look right. I suspect others (maybe a few?) would argue for the center cone.

[BEC]

The 2016 fin I won't quibble about *too* much, since leading and trailing edge sweeps and root chord are correct.

Yeah....not too far off...certainly not as far off as the catalog page/Semroc shape. I had started to write something to the effect that the current lasered ones were as far off as the catalog page and that I was going to take comparison pictures later and then I just decided to do the pictures and was actually a little surprised at how close it actually is.

The old balsa noses were always a bit dodgy due to wear and tear on the plunge grinder. The original plastic nose was a decent approximation. The newer nose is a proper mathematical ogive, but *not* the old shape.

Yes.....and that contrast is pretty obvious in tbzep's pictures (and reposted above by Lee).

And yes, you're correct about the Alpha III nose. Chrome Quasar was just an Alpha III nose, chromed. As the fins were Alpha III fins, clipped and chromed (though the clipping was probably done at the mold and not post production).

I figured as much. I just don't have examples in hand as I do the others (III in two colors, IV, Phantom).

Of course the fin can has been used in a few other places as well - the RTF HiJinks and Athena of recent years come immediately to mind, as well as the Make It - Take It, though this latter while dimensionally similar seems to be made from a lower quality plastic. I'm sure there are others.

Lee - I have an example of the earlier blow-molded cone since John Boren gave me a partial red/black livery Alpha kit at NSL. I will post some pictures later including it and a genuine circa 1970 BNC-50K (that golden Alpha I mentioned earlier) alongside a Semroc version and the current blow-molded one. But not tonight. Gotta go bathe a couple of corgis.....

[blackshire]

Thank you (and for posting the scan of your 1967 Alpha instructions!); I didn’t remember either of those part numbers. Since that is—I think, since it’s old enough that it mentions dope first, *then* spray paint—the first version of the Alpha’s instructions, that white/red paint scheme could have been the first “official” Alpha paint scheme. Yes, you can always make “a clone of that clone” in order to avoid losing your signed one (that would be especially important for a Bill Simon-signed original-type Mosquito clone!).

I’d built a couple of Athenas (the old metallized nose cone/Generic E2X fin unit 4FNC kit) which also utilized the motor mount “sleeve” tube, and it was perfectly sensible for them, particularly since the sleeve didn’t slide over the motor clip (which would require the builder to cut a long slot out of the inner wall of the sleeve). For a rocket like the Alpha, the sleeve is structural “overkill” and needlessly complicates the construction. A jigsaw or a band saw would be perfect for (carefully!) cutting the sleeves into centering rings.

I help a teacher in the isolated community of Eagle, Alaska, who incorporates model rocketry into her students’ STEM courses but has quite limited funds to do so (there are many other teachers in similar circumstances). Such an Alpha “no-frills basic bulk pack” would be ideal for such teachers, since balsa fin stock would be cheaper than die-cut or laser-cut fins (plus, the students would learn skills and hand-eye coordination by cutting out the fin patterns and the fins themselves, stack-sanding them, airfoiling them, and so forth), and:

It sounds like the Alpha II was Estes’ “production modernization test product.” Not being a product that they offered to the general public, any problems with it (which could have delayed distribution) would have affected only a relatively small subset of their customer base (and for outstanding orders, they could have substituted production “Alpha I” kits for the Alpha IIs until their production problems were fixed).

[LeeR]

Although the part shown was turned for my Super Alpha, this is my interpretation of what a "BNC-60K" should look like. In the picture is the plastic nose cone included with my Super Alpha. I think it's the same cone as the Der Red Max nose cone, and definitely an unacceptable cone for an Alpha.

[BEC]

Nice job, Lee.

The first run of Super Alphas had a balsa nose cone that was much closer. But the body was too short for a true BT-60 upscale.

I had a BT-60 upscale of the first version of the Alpha with a 24mm motor mount in it with me at NSL, but it was one of the models that didn't get flown. It has a BNC-60K from eRockets/Semroc on it.

[tbzep]

Although the part shown was turned for my Super Alpha, this is my interpretation of what a "BNC-60K" should look like. In the picture is the plastic nose cone included with my Super Alpha. I think it's the same cone as the Der Red Max nose cone, and definitely an unacceptable cone for an Alpha.
Yes, that's the PNC-60AH (Red Max, Citation Patriot, Omega, Mean Machine, Screamin Mimi, etc.).
Nice job turning the upscale 50K.

[LeeR]

Nice job, Lee.

The first run of Super Alphas had a balsa nose cone that was much closer. But the body was too short for a true BT-60 upscale.

I had a BT-60 upscale of the first version of the Alpha with a 24mm motor mount in it with me at NSL, but it was one of the models that didn't get flown. It has a BNC-60K from eRockets/Semroc on it.

Interesting that the body tube was too short, if the nose cone was close to accurate. The body tube in mine was too short, but I figured it was done when they used the long plastic cone, to keep overall length close to scale.

I had my Super Alpha at NSL also, but no flight. I took WAY too many rockets and motors, but I'm always over-optimistic about what I'll get prepped and flown.

[Royatl]

The first run of Super Alphas had a balsa nose cone that was much closer. But the body was too short for a true BT-60 upscale.



yes, just one inch too short



("that's what *she* said..." sorry, couldn't help it!)

[JumpJet]

I took a look for more Alpha stuff today and found these two images.

Don't know if either were ever kitted. The Super Alpha I've seen the box laying around here someplace. The All American Alpha that Vern Estes is getting ready to launch most likely never made it to market.


John Boren

[Initiator001]

I took a look for more Alpha stuff today and found these two images.

Don't know if either were ever kitted. The Super Alpha I've seen the box laying around here someplace. The All American Alpha that Vern Estes is getting ready to launch most likely never made it to market.


John Boren

The Super Alpha starter set was available for sale. It was sold in the hobby shop where I worked.

The All American Alpha was a project where one Alpha model was flown in all 50 states.
I flew the model in Arizona.

[JumpJet]

More cool History Facts. Thanks



John Boren

[SEL]

The Super Alpha starter set was available for sale. It was sold in the hobby shop where I worked.

The All American Alpha was a project where one Alpha model was flown in all 50 states.
I flew the model in Arizona.

Wow - I had forgotten about that. I flew it in MA. Did it ever make it through
All 50 states?

[Doug Sams]

Wow - I had forgotten about that. I flew it in MA. Did it ever make it through
All 50 states?And how many rocketry forums ago was that ? <vbg>

I wanna say I remember reading about it on rec.models.rockets :) Or was it ROL?

Doug

.

[SEL]

And how many rocketry forums ago was that ? <vbg>

I wanna say I remember reading about it on rec.models.rockets :) Or was it ROL?

Doug

.

And you win a kewpie doll! Rec.models.rockets it was. I have the Launch photos buried deep in the bowels of one of my hard drives. I'll see if I can dig them out and post.

[blackshire]

Wow - I had forgotten about that. I flew it in MA. Did it ever make it through
All 50 states?It sure did (see: http://www.ninfinger.org/models/pix/ishof_10.jpg [on the far right side] and http://www.ninfinger.org/models/ishof_pix.html [the second link is to the Ninfinger Productions website page from which the picture came]). I launched it in Alaska, at the Poker Flat Research Range (see: http://www.pfrr.alaska.edu/ ), our sounding rocket launch facility.

[chrism]

Also notice too that the face card is in the new purple color.

[Initiator001]

Another iteration of the Alpha/Alpha III line:

https://www.target.com/p/rocket-science-starter-set/-/A-52187256#lnk=sametab

[BEC]

Yes....though only in some Target stores. The only one that occasionally has one around here is way up on the other side of Seattle at Northgate mall.

Dan French had one of those sets at the big Alpha 50th thing at the Museum last September - it is something Mary Roberts had a great deal to do with creating.

I need to order one just to see if that's really an Alpha III or if it's more of a HiJinks sort of bird (with the longer body and a YP-type nose cone). It looks really cool, that's for sure, and is the first set in a long while to come with motors in it.

[BEC]

And Bob, thanks for popping this thread back up. I still owe folks the nose cone comparison picture I promised. I should also post a picture of the nose cone and motor mount variations display I made for the Alpha 50th event (and the fin shapes display). They sum up the evolution in many fewer words.

I really need to sit down and figure out a way to present the data I collected - including from a delightful conversation with Mary Roberts and subsequent emails - on the evolution of the Alpha, the Alpha II (both of which had a couple of real surprises) as well as the Alpha III - which save for the motor hook and the color scheme is pretty much identical to Mike Dorffler's original from 1971. At least the III has changed far less than Bill Simon's original Alpha has over the years.

[blackshire]

And Bob, thanks for popping this thread back up. I still owe folks the nose cone comparison picture I promised. I should also post a picture of the nose cone and motor mount variations display I made for the Alpha 50th event (and the fin shapes display). They sum up the evolution in many fewer words.

I really need to sit down and figure out a way to present the data I collected - including from a delightful conversation with Mary Roberts and subsequent emails - on the evolution of the Alpha, the Alpha II (both of which had a couple of real surprises) as well as the Alpha III - which save for the motor hook and the color scheme is pretty much identical to Mike Dorffler's original from 1971. At least the III has changed far less than Bill Simon's original Alpha has over the years.A question (and I apologize if you've been asked--and answered--this before):

I once had a "latter-day" Citation Quasar kit, which had a white nose cone and a white fin unit that were identical (except in color, of course) to the Alpha III's red--and now, orange--plastic parts. Was the original aluminized Quasar fin unit identical in shape to the Alpha III and later Quasar fin unit (except for the "clipped trailing fin tips," of course), or were its fins different in fundamental planform? Many thanks in advance for your help!

[ghrocketman]

The chrome Citation Quasar fins were a clipped Alpha III fin unit. The bagged Quasar fins were completely identical except molded in white color plastic.

[blackshire]

The chrome Citation Quasar fins were a clipped Alpha III fin unit. The bagged Quasar fins were completely identical except molded in white color plastic.Thank you. I thought that was the case, but never having had (or seen, other than in a catalog) a Quasar with the metallized plastic parts, I wasn't sure.

[Initiator001]

Here's a picture of my original Citation Quasar model alongside a clone of the later white finned/nose cone Quasar.

[blackshire]

Here's a picture of my original Citation Quasar model alongside a clone of the later white finned/nose cone Quasar.Thank you--that's a good comparison picture! The fin tips of the original chromed one aren't clipped as much as I had expected. My "post-chrome" one vanished on its first flight, when it weather-cocked into a horizontal path toward a large area of thick foliage.

[BEC]

And Bob, thanks for popping this thread back up. I still owe folks the nose cone comparison picture I promised. I should also post a picture of the nose cone and motor mount variations display I made for the Alpha 50th event (and the fin shapes display). They sum up the evolution in many fewer words.

OK - here are nose cone comparisons a couple of ways. The first two pictures are three recently-built Alphas and one that’s been flying for several years and currently has 55 flights on it.

In the whole-rocket pictures they are:

First one built from a yellow face-card K-25/1225 kit with a real Estes BNC-50K nose cone. This is my “Golden Alpha”.

Next is the “Aggie Alpha” done in the colors of my wife’s and my alma mater (New Mexico State University). It is a clone of the same version of the Alpha kit, made with Semroc parts (notably the nose cone). (Fins for both of these are hand-cut using an SP-25 fin pattern).

Next is an early 1980s 1225 Alpha which has the first version of the blow-molded nose cone (and die-cut fins which match SP-25 exactly). As many others have noted, this is also my favorite version of the Alpha livery, which is done via water slide decals.

Finally is that much flown relatively recent Alpha - built from a bulk pack kit which probably dates from about 2005. This is the later (current shape) blow molded nose cone and laser-cut fins (which were a little too aggressively rounded when I put the model together).

The next picture is a nose cone closeup - but in a different order - BNC-50K, PNC-50KA (first version), PNC-50KA (current version) and Semroc BNC-50K.

Next is a view of the little display I built showing the evolution of both the nose cones and the motor mounts over the years. This was made for the Alpha 50th affair at the Museum of Flight last September.


Next come three fin comparisons - first the early 1980s Alpha and the battered one from 2009 or so, then the fins display for the MoF affair - showing “cut it yourself”, then die cut then laser cut. In the lower left of that was an attempt to show the fin shape difference by laying a laser-cut fin on a pattern cut from an SP-25. The final picture is a closeup of that area.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

OK - here are nose cone comparisons a couple of ways. The first two pictures are three recently-built Alphas and one that’s been flying for several years and currently has 55 flights on it.

In the whole-rocket pictures they are:

First one built from a yellow face-card K-25/1225 kit with a real Estes BNC-50K nose cone. This is my “Golden Alpha”.

Next is the “Aggie Alpha” done in the colors of my wife’s and my alma mater (New Mexico State University). It is a clone of the same version of the Alpha kit, made with Semroc parts (notably the nose cone). (Fins for both of these are hand-cut using an SP-25 fin pattern).

Next is an early 1980s 1225 Alpha which has the first version of the blow-molded nose cone (and die-cut fins which match SP-25 exactly). As many others have noted, this is also my favorite version of the Alpha livery, which is done via water slide decals.

Finally is that much flown relatively recent Alpha - built from a bulk pack kit which probably dates from about 2005. This is the later (current shape) blow molded nose cone and laser-cut fins (which were a little too aggressively rounded when I put the model together).

The next picture is a nose cone closeup - but in a different order - BNC-50K, PNC-50K (first version), PNC-50K (current version) and Semroc BNC-50K.

Next is a view of the little display I built showing the evolution of both the nose cones and the motor mounts over the years. This was made for the Alpha 50th affair at the Museum of Flight last September.


Next come three fin comparisons - first the early 1980s Alpha and the battered one from 2009 or so, then the fins display for the MoF affair - showing “cut it yourself”, then die cut then laser cut. In the lower left of that was an attempt to show the fin shape difference by laying a laser-cut fin on one cut from an SP-25. The final picture is a closeup of that area.
:cool:

[astronwolf]

Wow.

[BEC]

Two additional thoughts: first of all, I probably should refer to the blow molded Alpha nose cones as PNC-50KA (both versions) since I think the Alpha III/Quasar/Phantom nose cone - which is injection molded and has a rather different shape - is actually “PNC-50K”.

[I edited the post to reflect that]

Next, some will notice the small holes near the bases of the nose cones on the golden Alpha and the battered one. As you may surmise, these are static ports for an altimeter. It IS possible, with a little bit of careful packing (and very thin plastic Semroc ‘chutes) to tie a PerfectFlite FireFly in a protective pouch to the nose cone and get it all in. I am a little surprised at how much ejection gas residue is on the golden model around those holes. It’s only been flown twice.

I also failed to mention in the post above that my wife Avis built the Aggie Alpha from a “kit” that I pulled together from Semroc parts for her. I did cut the fins out, but the rest is her work save for some of the painting.

[Shreadvector]

Bob,

Did you buy one of these yet (or are you interested in getting/collecting one)??

The Target right up the street from where I work actually has these on the shelf. They had 3 on the shelf, now they have 2.

Now it will probably show up at Hobby Lobby where i could have used the 40% off e-coupon. They are supposed to do a re-set of the modular display in February.....

Another iteration of the Alpha/Alpha III line:

https://www.target.com/p/rocket-science-starter-set/-/A-52187256#lnk=sametab

[BEC]

Fred,

At least last September when I was taking to Mary Roberts about all things Alpha the plan for that set was only Target stores that have a "STEM" section. I'd love to see it show up at Hobby Lobby since (at least in the stores in my area) it would be right there with other "science kits" and such anyway.

[Shreadvector]

Thanks for the info.

FYI, it is labelled as "STEAM", not "STEM".

At least TARC has resisted the lobbying from the Arts folks to cram an "A" into STEM for TARC.

Fred,

At least last September when I was taking to Mary Roberts about all things Alpha the plan for that set was only Target stores that have a "STEM" section. I'd love to see it show up at Hobby Lobby since (at least in the stores in my area) it would be right there with other "science kits" and such anyway.

[Initiator001]

Bob,

Did you buy one of these yet (or are you interested in getting/collecting one)??

The Target right up the street from where I work actually has these on the shelf. They had 3 on the shelf, now they have 2.

Now it will probably show up at Hobby Lobby where i could have used the 40% off e-coupon. They are supposed to do a re-set of the modular display in February.....

Thanks for the offer, Fred but I already have one on the way. ;)

[Initiator001]

Three years ago I started this thread all because of a mistake on the kit facer card.

Since that time there has been a wealth of important historical information about the Estes Alpha kit.

My thanks to all that have contributed to this thread.

Now, just to bring it full circle, here is a current Estes Alpha kit I picked up in the past few weeks.

The nose cone on the package has been returned to it's red color.

All is well. ;) :)

[Royatl]

The nose cone on the package has been returned to it's red color.

All is well. ;) :)


But they still haven’t returned the nose cone to it’s proper shape!

[BEC]

Interesting that this most recent Alpha package shows “skill level 1” rather than “intermediate” to be consistent with their new presentation of levels: https://estesrockets.com/product/001225-alpha/

One more for Dan French to go buy, I guess, since he’s focused on kit packaging rather than configuration of the model itself.....though I’d be curious if there are any changes there. Bob, I presume the nose cone in the kit is the same as it has been for - well - ever since 1993 or so with some of the kits just before the Beta Series version).

It is interesting to realize that the pointier shape nose cone has now actually been in production longer than the “real” Alpha shape (BNC-50K/original blow-molded plastic nose cone introduced on EK-25 Alpha IIs).

I STILL need to write up my chronology of all the Alpha configuration variations and share it somewhere. Then I need to do the Alpha III, though it is much simpler (almost no actual parts changes other than color for the entire 49-year [so far] life of the model).

And of course the Alpha VI has appeared (and, I suppose disappeared) since this thread started and the Phantom has reappeared. The Alpha VI has the extra half-inch of length that the Rocket Science Starter Set rocket (which has no name of its own) has, but is otherwise an Alpha III save for coloration. And the re-release of the Phantom restores the 5.5 inch body tube length so that it is identical in size to the Alpha III and looks way better than those 4-inch-long versions.

I also need to do the Nova Payloader since I seem to have become very enamored with it....but that’s for another thread. Spoiler alert: no fin shape changes, two nose cones, some other differences in other parts of the configuration....but not many. Of course its history is rather shorter since it’s only been around since 1986 and not in continuous production between then and the current #1716 version.

[5x7]

Interesting that this most recent Alpha package shows “skill level 1” rather than “intermediate” to be consistent with their new presentation of levels: https://estesrockets.com/product/001225-alpha/

One more for Dan French to go buy, I guess, since he’s focused on kit packaging rather than configuration of the model itself.....though I’d be curious if there are any changes there. Bob, I presume the nose cone in the kit is the same as it has been for - well - ever since 1993 or so with some of the kits just before the Beta Series version).

It is interesting to realize that the pointier shape nose cone has now actually been in production longer than the “real” Alpha shape (BNC-50K/original blow-molded plastic nose cone introduced on EK-25 Alpha IIs).

I STILL need to write up my chronology of all the Alpha configuration variations and share it somewhere. Then I need to do the Alpha III, though it is much simpler (almost no actual parts changes other than color for the entire 49-year [so far] life of the model).

And of course the Alpha VI has appeared (and, I suppose disappeared) since this thread started and the Phantom has reappeared. The Alpha VI has the extra half-inch of length that the Rocket Science Starter Set rocket (which has no name of its own) has, but is otherwise an Alpha III save for coloration. And the re-release of the Phantom restores the 5.5 inch body tube length so that it is identical in size to the Alpha III and looks way better than those 4-inch-long versions.

I also need to do the Nova Payloader since I seem to have become very enamored with it....but that’s for another thread. Spoiler alert: no fin shape changes, two nose cones, some other differences in other parts of the configuration....but not many. Of course its history is rather shorter since it’s only been around since 1986 and not in continuous production between then and the current #1716 version.


I really like the Nova Payloader too, it could have been a Centuri design. The one I have was hand painted by my seven year old at the time, she is 20 now, I miss those times.

[Royatl]

Interesting that this most recent Alpha package shows “skill level 1” rather than “intermediate” to be consistent with their new presentation of levels: https://estesrockets.com/product/001225-alpha/

That’s because the face card in question was printed two years ago, just before the reassignment.

[BEC]

That’s because the face card in question was printed two years ago, just before the reassignment.That would do it.....which means that in the foreseeable future there will be ANOTHER kit packaging variant (with no change to the actual parts inside) to please (or irritate) the Alpha completists out there :D.

[Initiator001]

But they still haven’t returned the nose cone to it’s proper shape!

Roy,

You're friends with the guy who bought the company.

Tell him to fix the nose cone! ;) :D

[Royatl]

Roy,

You're friends with the guy who bought the company.

Tell him to fix the nose cone! ;) :D

He’ll probably just smile in that diplomatic way and say, “We’ll see.” ;-)

Haven’t actually talked to him since NARAM 53 though we’ve exchanged some email and Facebook msgs.

[tbzep]

He’ll probably just smile in that diplomatic way and say, “We’ll see.” ;-)

Haven’t actually talked to him since NARAM 53 though we’ve exchanged some email and Facebook msgs.
Next time you speak, thank him for lightening my bank account and filling a drawer full of C5-3's. :cool:

[john ager]

I think I have stumbled onto the strangest Alpha I have ever seen. I picked up a collection from a guy a while back and one of the rockets in that collection was an unbuilt Alpha. The face card was the old yellow card and the name was Alpha "S".

I finally got around to opening the kit a few weeks ago and noticed a couple of things that didn't feel right. The kit included only a set of typed instructions. Not the normal Estes instructions with the pictures that we are accustomed to. Just typed text on paper folded and placed in the kit.

First I noticed that the fins had dimples against the root edge. The Balsa was also considerable harder than whan comes in todays kits. The fins also looked to be a little bit larger than normal. This caused me to grab my current Alpha and do some comparisions.

Photo 1 - Shows the fins as compared to the a current Alpha. The sweep angle is greater and the fins are longer.

Photo 2 - Here I noticed that the nose cone was fatter. I believe I have seen this one before back in my youth but I couldn't recall if it was on the older Alpha.

Photo 3 - This one I didn't actually catch this on until the rocket was completed. The body tube is about 1/2 and inch longer than the current rocket.

If I didn't open the package myself I'd swear this wasn't an Alpha.

[Earl]

Hmmmm... interesting. Can you post a photo or scan of the face card and instructions? I’d really like to se those.

Earl

[john ager]

Earl,

Will do. I'll dig them out when I get back home later in the week and post them up.

here is a very poor pic from the add where I bought the collection.

[Royatl]

I think I have stumbled onto the strangest Alpha I have ever seen. I picked up a collection from a guy a while back and one of the rockets in that collection was an unbuilt Alpha. The face card was the old yellow card and the name was Alpha "S".

I finally got around to opening the kit a few weeks ago and noticed a couple of things that didn't feel right. The kit included only a set of typed instructions. Not the normal Estes instructions with the pictures that we are accustomed to. Just typewriter text on paper folded and placed in the kit.

First I noticed that the fins had dimples against the root edge. The Balsa was also considerable harder than whan comes in todays kits. The fins also looked to be a little bit larger than normal. This caused me to grab my current Alpha and do some comparisions.

Photo 1 - Shows the fins as compared to the a current Alpha. The sweep angle is greater and the fins are longer.

Photo 2 - Here I noticed that the nose cone was fatter. I believe I have seen this one before back in my youth but I couldn't recall if it was on the older Alpha.

Photo 3 - This one I didn't actually catch this on until the rocket was completed. The body tube is about 1/2 and inch longer than the current rocket.

If I didn't open the package myself I'd swear this wasn't an Alpha.

The nose you have is the one true and proper Alpha nose cone (at least of the plastic variety). The pointier nose is an abomination born of the Tunick years — as is the blue of the decals. The fins are probably the correct (one true and... etc) ones. The dimple in the root was added when they started die-mashing the fins for teachers.

[BEC]

I think I have stumbled onto the strangest Alpha I have ever seen. I picked up a collection from a guy a while back and one of the rockets in that collection was an unbuilt Alpha. The face card was the old yellow card and the name was Alpha "S".

I finally got around to opening the kit a few weeks ago and noticed a couple of things that didn't feel right. The kit included only a set of typed instructions. Not the normal Estes instructions with the pictures that we are accustomed to. Just typewriter text on paper folded and placed in the kit.

First I noticed that the fins had dimples against the root edge. The Balsa was also considerable harder than whan comes in todays kits. The fins also looked to be a little bit larger than normal. This caused me to grab my current Alpha and do some comparisions.

Photo 1 - Shows the fins as compared to the a current Alpha. The sweep angle is greater and the fins are longer.

Photo 2 - Here I noticed that the nose cone was fatter. I believe I have seen this one before back in my youth but I couldn't recall if it was on the older Alpha.

Photo 3 - This one I didn't actually catch this on until the rocket was completed. The body tube is about 1/2 and inch longer than the current rocket.

If I didn't open the package myself I'd swear this wasn't an Alpha.

I’m with Earl, I want to see that face card and those instructions!!

Depending on how much sanding you did on the regular Alpha you built, those fins from the mystery model could just be die cuts of the original Alpha fin shape (which, along with the plastic nose cone, first appeared on Alpha IIs for the educational market). But unless you did quite a bit of sanding, they are just a touch larger.

The nose cone is the first version blow-molded nose cone, it appears. That plastic nose cone shape appeared in Alphas (and Alpha IIs) circa 1982 and was in Alpha kits for ~10 years before something must have happened to the tooling as for a time (early 1990s) you might get that nose cone or you might get an Alpha III nose cone. After that, the current shape appeared that is on your “regular” model.

The Alpha VI is half an inch longer than Alpha III/IV but up until now I’d have said that a BT-50 that’s 7.75 inches long was one of the few constants of all Alpha/Alpha IIs.

Here’s some comparative stuff I assembled a few years ago for an Alpha 50th anniversary bash at the Museum of Flight.



added 11/23/20: I see I've been repeating myself, since I posted these pictures earlier in this thread as well...... :eek:

[Joe Shockcord]

The change gives one hope that the Halloween colors of the Alpha III could someday change ...
Unti then, here is how I do them. :)
The recent anniversary Alpha was released in red metallic. Wouldn't it be fairly easy (and wonderful) for Estes to go ahead and re-release the original metallic Citation Quasar?

[BEC]

The recent anniversary Alpha was released in red metallic. Wouldn't it be fairly easy (and wonderful) for Estes to go ahead and re-release the original metallic Citation Quasar?

Indeed....and/or maybe in gold, seeing as next year will be the 50th anniversary of the Alpha III.

[john ager]

I’m with Earl, I want to see that face card and those instructions!!

Depending on how much sanding you did on the regular Alpha you built, those fins from the mystery model could just be die cuts of the original Alpha fin shape (which, along with the plastic nose cone, first appeared on Alpha IIs for the educational market). But unless you did quite a bit of sanding, they are just a touch larger.

The nose cone is the first version blow-molded nose cone, it appears. That plastic nose cone shape appeared in Alphas (and Alpha IIs) circa 1982 and was in Alpha kits for ~10 years before something must have happened to the tooling as for a time (early 1990s) you might get that nose cone or you might get an Alpha III nose cone. After that, the current shape appeared that is on your “regular” model.

The Alpha VI is half an inch longer than Alpha III/IV but up until now I’d have said that a BT-50 that’s 7.75 inches long was one of the few constants of all Alpha/Alpha IIs.

Here’s some comparative stuff I assembled a few years ago for an Alpha 50th anniversary bash at the Museum of Flight.

Generally speaking I just touch up the edges of the fins and round the leading edge so I don't think I sanded away that much of the fins on the regular Alpha. The body tube on this kit is 8.25. With the fins attached the rocket is almost .75 taller than the other regular Alpha. I'm wondering if I got my hands on one of the educator Alpha 2 packs or a factory oops..

I'll post the face card when I get home later in the week but there is a fuzzy pic of it in an earlier post.

[BEC]

Generally speaking I just touch up the edges of the fins and round the leading edge so I don't think I sanded away that much of the fins on the regular Alpha. The body tube on this kit is 8.25. With the fins attached the rocket is almost .75 taller than the other regular Alpha. I'm wondering if I got my hands on one of the educator Alpha 2 packs or a factory oops..

I'll post the face card when I get home later in the week but there is a fuzzy pic of it in an earlier post.

The fuzzy face card looks like Alpha II, but the Alpha IIs I have all have the standard 7.75 inch BT (even the version that has the longer internal motor tube with the shock cord attached to it).

Now that I think of it, actually I just assumed that. I think I'll go check one or two.....!

Either way, I am eagerly awaiting a clearer image of the face card and those instructions.

[Earl]

I am wondering if the "S" could stand for a 'school' version....

Earl

[tbzep]

I am wondering if the "S" could stand for a 'school' version....

Earl
That was my thought, but then I wondered why they would do a face card and plastic hang tag for what amounts to a bulk kit.

[Earl]

Yes, it's all a little 'different' for sure and yet interesting as to what this version of the Alpha could be. The 'typed' instructions are even more curious....

Earl

[BEC]

The Alpha II was supposed to be the educational version... it originally was EK-25. Here are reasonably contemporary with one another Alpha and Alpha II. The Alpha has what I consider the classic configuration - BNC-50K and a motor mount using two AR-2050 rings. The Alpha II has the first blow-molded nose cone (which is very close to BNC-50K in shape), pre-marked fin lines on the main body tube, and die cut fins (with the little dimple indicating the root edge). It also has that longer motor mount tube that goes with the shock cord being attached to it rather than using the tri-fold mount.

Instructions for an earlier version, but using the same parts, attached after the pictures. Scan courtesy of Mary Roberts, who sent me a BUNCH of stuff when I was working on that Alpha 50th project (which I still need to write up into some kind of article).

All three Alpha II examples I have use the standard 7.75 inch BT-50H main body tube, which, as I noted before that until this latest info I thought was one of the few constants across the whole history of the balsa-finned Alpha/Alpha II.

The pictured Alpha II (and another with the same face card) both have the red/black Alpha decal. The Alpha does not have any decal in the package.

[john ager]

Bernard,

Reading your discription i'm thinking that I got my hands on a Alpha II. The Motor tube included in the kit was about an inch longer than normal, The body tube was premarked for the fins as shown in the previous pics and the fins had the dimple on the root edge.


I couldn't wait until I got home. I asked the GF to take a pic of the instructions and face card (don't have a scanner). She couldn't find the facecard but here are the instructions. After reading the last line i'm convinced this was some kind of special run for an event. The last line refers the builder to an instuctor or counsuler for prep and flight. I'm wonder if "S" stands for Scout as in Boy Scouts.

[BEC]

I hope you can find the face card when you get home! Do try to get a little better focused picture of those instructions if you can as well, please.

Interesting to see instructions with no illustrations at all (or references to them on another sheet). I've never seen that before. There is reference to a separate shock cord mount, so this is NOT the same construction variation as the earlier Alpha IIs which had the shock cord tied to the top of the motor hook (as in the instructions I posted above). I also don't think I've ever seen the motor hook referred to as an "engine spring" before.

I have often wondered what Bill Cannon's rationale was for the longer motor tube in the early Alpha II. The Alpha is pretty short on internal volume for wadding/chute in its original form and making the motor tube longer just makes it worse. With your longer main body tube in this "Alpha S" it partially compensates for that.

You do truly seem to have come across a really obscure Alpha variant.

I see the painting instructions describe the red/white/black pre-decals livery which would go with the face card.

[blackshire]

I’m with Earl, I want to see that face card and those instructions!!

Depending on how much sanding you did on the regular Alpha you built, those fins from the mystery model could just be die cuts of the original Alpha fin shape (which, along with the plastic nose cone, first appeared on Alpha IIs for the educational market). But unless you did quite a bit of sanding, they are just a touch larger.

The nose cone is the first version blow-molded nose cone, it appears. That plastic nose cone shape appeared in Alphas (and Alpha IIs) circa 1982 and was in Alpha kits for ~10 years before something must have happened to the tooling as for a time (early 1990s) you might get that nose cone or you might get an Alpha III nose cone. After that, the current shape appeared that is on your “regular” model.

The Alpha VI is half an inch longer than Alpha III/IV but up until now I’d have said that a BT-50 that’s 7.75 inches long was one of the few constants of all Alpha/Alpha IIs.

Here’s some comparative stuff I assembled a few years ago for an Alpha 50th anniversary bash at the Museum of Flight.Wasn't the Alpha II an all-metric kit that was made for schools (the dimples on the fins sound familiar)? That could also explain the typed instructions (the very earliest Estes kits--and catalogs--*did* have simple, typed pages). For such a limited-production, limited-"audience" kit, typed instructions would make sense, as could its different product number, EK-25 ("E" for "Educational?"), as opposed to K-25 for the regular Alpha.

[BEC]

Wasn't the Alpha II an all-metric kit that was made for schools (the dimples on the fins sound familiar)? That could also explain the typed instructions (the very earliest Estes kits--and catalogs--*did* have simple, typed pages). For such a limited-production, limited-"audience" kit, typed instructions would make sense, as could its different product number, EK-25 ("E" for "Educational?"), as opposed to K-25 for the regular Alpha.

Jason,

Actually, there was also a "Metric Alpha", which was, at least based on the one piece of info I have from that treasure trove of data Mary Roberts sent me, a metricized edition of the second version of the original Alpha with the motor mount using two AR-2050s and a BNC-50K nose cone. Since all the Alpha IIs I have any evidence of or samples of have plastic nose cones, this Metric Alpha would be, at best, a contemporary of the first Alpha IIs, as I've pictured in a post above.

Yes, I'm sure EK-25 for "Educational." The Damon style part number is not "1225E" but 1421.

The first Alpha's instructions from late 1965 were well illustrated which is why the plain ones posted by John Ager are surprising to me.

Attached are Metric Alpha instructions and early K-25 instructions.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Jason,

Actually, there was also a "Metric Alpha", which was, at least based on the one piece of info I have from that treasure trove of data Mary Roberts sent me, a metricized edition of the second version of the original Alpha with the motor mount using two AR-2050s and a BNC-50K nose cone. Since all the Alpha IIs I have any evidence of or samples of have plastic nose cones, this Metric Alpha would be, at best, a contemporary of the first Alpha IIs, as I've pictured in a post above.

Yes, I'm sure EK-25 for "Educational." The Damon style part number is not "1225E" but 1421.

The first Alpha's instructions from late 1965 were well illustrated which is why the plain ones posted by John Ager are surprising to me.

Attached are Metric Alpha instructions and early K-25 instructions.
Any day now I expect the metric system to take hold. My teacher said so in 1975. Any day now...........

[BEC]

Any day now I expect the metric system to take hold. My teacher said so in 1975. Any day now...........
:D:)

[blackshire]

Jason,

Actually, there was also a "Metric Alpha", which was, at least based on the one piece of info I have from that treasure trove of data Mary Roberts sent me, a metricized edition of the second version of the original Alpha with the motor mount using two AR-2050s and a BNC-50K nose cone. Since all the Alpha IIs I have any evidence of or samples of have plastic nose cones, this Metric Alpha would be, at best, a contemporary of the first Alpha IIs, as I've pictured in a post above.

Yes, I'm sure EK-25 for "Educational." The Damon style part number is not "1225E" but 1421.

The first Alpha's instructions from late 1965 were well illustrated which is why the plain ones posted by John Ager are surprising to me.

Attached are Metric Alpha instructions and early K-25 instructions.Thank you for reproducing the (very first) original Alpha and the Metric Alpha kits' instructions. Maybe (I'm just guessing here, of course) Estes ran short of the Alpha II instructions sheets, but *not* by enough to justify the expense of having another full-size batch of them printed up, enough for a whole production run of the kits (maybe some were printed off-center, or got wet and were ruined, etc.), so they typed up the replacement instructions sheets, and:

The Metric Alpha instructions would be equally useful today, to familiarize kids with measuring and cutting using millimeter/centimeter rulers, and for confirming the "modified" K-number's meaning. An added brief note could account for the single, rather stage coupler-like, motor mount centering "sleeve" in today's Alpha kits. (The 6"/150 mm/15 cm steel rules [all-metric ones that also include a section with 0.5 mm divisions are also readily available] are great for cutting--including cleanly removing the Alpha's die-cut or laser-cut balsa fins from their sheet, cutting the motor clip slit, etc.--as well as measuring for the proper parts positioning.) ALSO:

I'm going to send both of your links (with acknowledgement to you for posting them here) to an educational model rocketry-using teacher, retired professor, and grandmother I know; between all three of them, they reach quite a few kids. >PLUS<:

If you suggested it to Mary Roberts at Estes, they could upload the Metric Alpha kit instructions--with an added note about the current kit's motor mount tube "sleeve," as opposed to the the older motor mount using two AR-2050s (and the balsa BNC-50K instead of the blow-molded styrene nose cone)--on the section of the Estes website where the technical reports and booklets can be downloaded. Teachers and other group leaders who use model rocketry could use either the current Alpha kit's instructions or the Metric Alpha instructions (they could print up as many copies as they needed for their classes, Scout troops, 4-H or other groups), as they preferred. (Industrial Arts classes--there's an Estes booklet on model rocketry for Industrial Arts teachers and classes--would also benefit from building Metric Alpha kits, and measuring and cutting using metric steel rules.)

[BEC]

Mary Roberts has retired....but I do have a contact or two at Estes.

I wonder when the last time they updated that Industrial Arts material. I’ve acquired some of that as I was doing the Alpha research....but nothing newer than perhaps 30 years old.

Also, I checked with Dan French, who is the local collector of all things Alpha and Alpha-like and he’s never heard of “Alpha S” so he, too, is very much interested in any more detail that John Ager (or anyone else) can supply on this variant.

[Earl]

The typed instructions in this kit could have resulted by way of a number of different pathways, possibly within Estes OR produced by a local group.

But, the really intriguing thing is that face card, and I suspect those are not just printed, in color at that, on a whim. THAT tells me this must have been done in some decent numbers to have made it worth doing a ‘custom’ face card. It’s not that much different, but it IS different nonetheless.

The ‘S’ could stand for ‘school’, ‘scouts’, or even ‘special’. It will be interesting to discover the full story behind these, if possibly there is someone still at Estes who remembers or someone here who might recall having seen it somewhere else.

Earl

[blackshire]

Any day now I expect the metric system to take hold. My teacher said so in 1975. Any day now...........The McMetrics Rulers, which McDonald's restaurants offered in the 1970s, are--sadly, in a way--collectors' items today. There were some funny things about the abortive U.S. metrication effort of the 1970s:

The Metrication Board was poorly-constituted; it contained members who were dead-set against it, which was foolish. (When a group is assembled to accomplish any task, its members--while they might disagree on *how* to best accomplish it--should ^all^ "be on the same page," being in agreement on the objective [U.S. Metrication, in this case].) Also:

The notion--which I've heard and read many times over the years, that we shouldn't adopt the "foreign metric system"--is laughable. (A closely-related joke is the belief, common among many if not most British people even today [when defending the UK's continued use of inches and pounds to Continental Europeans], that "America uses Imperial units, too, and they were good enough to get them to the Moon!" The U.S. has *never* used the British Imperial units, which they adopted in 1824 [and in which the gallon, the inch, and other units differed significantly from the pre-Imperial units that we use; the U.S. and UK inches were standardized as being exactly 25.4 millimeters during World War II, when Allison-made Spitfire engines from the U.S. didn't fit the engine mounts in the aircraft].) Regarding the "foreign" charge against the metric system:

Nothing could be further from the truth. The U.S. and France jointly developed the metric system (which is truly a ^system^--more on this below--of inter-related units, not merely a collection of units); President Thomas Jefferson, a scientist as wall as a statesman, worked closely with French and other American metrologists to develop the metric system. The only significant difference between Jefferson's plan and the one ultimately adopted was that he wanted the meter to equal the length (or the arc-length; I forget which) of a pendulum that took one second to complete a swing, while other metrologists preferred to have the meter equal one ten-millionth of the distance from the Earth's equator to a pole; this was the meter that was adopted, which makes the Earth's circumference 40,000 kilometers. The metric system has been legal for trade use (to denote the sizes and masses of products and raw materials, etc.) in the United States since 1866, and:

In the metric system, the units are inter-related, which the ASA (American Standards Association) units are not (in the British Imperial units, a pint of water has a mass of one pound [the U.S. gallon, the Queen Anne wine gallon, is much smaller than the Imperial gallon]). For example:

One milliliter of water--about 20 drops--has a mass of one gram, and has a volume of one cubic centimeter (a cube one centimeter--ten millimeters--on a side). A liter of water--one thousand milliliters--is a 10 x 10 x 10 centimeter cube of water, which has a mass of one kilogram. Surface area is also related; one millimeter of rainfall on one square meter of ground (or in a constant-length & width container with a flat bottom of that surface area, regardless of whether it's square, rectangular, circular, elliptical, etc. in cross-section) has a volume of one liter, which has a mass of one kilogram. As well:

Some countries found it easier to metricate than did others. Using the centimeter as a sort of "metric inch" was found to be a hindrance (except for product descriptions). The Australians found it much easier--and an improvement in efficiency and reduction of waste--to simply use the millimeter for carpentry, stone masonry, factory tooling, and plans and blueprints (all dimensional measurements on drawings are agreed to be millimeters unless otherwise indicated, making it unnecessary to list the units at all, which makes for neater, uncluttered drawings and blueprints). In addition:

It also enabled them to eliminate significant numbers effectively redundant inch-pound (and "penny") nail, screw, and other fastener types' sizes, which resulted in cost savings and greater efficiency. Homes built using the Australian metric-standards materials (boards, panels, fasteners, pipes, wires, etc.) leave far less waste material left over than did the old inch-pound standards ones, which weren't designed to any systematic plan (they had a "contest" involving building houses using both parts types, to demonstrate to contractors the advantages--and the much reduced waste material--when using metric standards parts and materials). I have two Lufkin 8 meter x 25 mm all-metric contractor (and general hardware store, see: https://www.americanproducers.com/index.jsp?path=product&title=lufkin.hv1048cm.tape.25mmx8m.series.1000.hi.viz.orange&part=712835 ) tape measures that I bought from an Australian Ebay seller some years ago (Lufkin is now phasing-in a "fancier-cased" one to replace it), and they are very easy to use; their millimeter, centimeter, and meter numbers and hash-mark lines are very distinct and easy to see, even from some distance away.

[dannymrmissile]

I think I have stumbled onto the strangest Alpha I have ever seen. I picked up a collection from a guy a while back and one of the rockets in that collection was an unbuilt Alpha. The face card was the old yellow card and the name was Alpha "S".

I finally got around to opening the kit a few weeks ago and noticed a couple of things that didn't feel right. The kit included only a set of typed instructions. Not the normal Estes instructions with the pictures that we are accustomed to. Just typed text on paper folded and placed in the kit.

First I noticed that the fins had dimples against the root edge. The Balsa was also considerable harder than whan comes in todays kits. The fins also looked to be a little bit larger than normal. This caused me to grab my current Alpha and do some comparisions.

Photo 1 - Shows the fins as compared to the a current Alpha. The sweep angle is greater and the fins are longer.

Photo 2 - Here I noticed that the nose cone was fatter. I believe I have seen this one before back in my youth but I couldn't recall if it was on the older Alpha.

Photo 3 - This one I didn't actually catch this on until the rocket was completed. The body tube is about 1/2 and inch longer than the current rocket.

If I didn't open the package myself I'd swear this wasn't an Alpha.
This was only Now brought to my attention !

NO, NO. The S is a SPECIAL Maxi Alpha made Only as a Retailer’s display kit for the New Maxi Alpha. It was only used , and by Bob Cannon, from a 1977-78 Retailer’s assortment. It was Never available as a kit, nor in any catalog. It was for Display to get attention of kids wanting larger kits. Period. This is fact. What you have is simply an updated Alpha Kit when the decal colors were changed. The S was sesignated 1291-S " Special Maxi Alpha". Nothing more. ......

[Earl]

This was only Now brought to my attention !

NO, NO. The S is a SPECIAL Maxi Alpha made Only as a Retailer’s display kit for the New Maxi Alpha. It was only used , and by Bob Cannon, from a 1977-78 Retailer’s assortment. It was Never available as a kit, nor in any catalog. It was for Display to get attention of kids wanting larger kits. Period. This is fact. What you have is simply an updated Alpha Kit when the decal colors were changed. The S was sesignated 1291-S " Special Maxi Alpha". Nothing more. ......

The kit appears to be a regular sized Alpha...there does not seem to be anything 'maxi' about it. Are we missing something?

Earl

[blackshire]

Mary Roberts has retired....but I do have a contact or two at Estes.I wondered that, even as I was writing the posting. If you "pinged" the folks at Estes you know, I think there's a good chance they would post the metric Alpha instructions on their publications download page. (They could easily even change the motor mount assembly instructions--and the illustration--to reflect today's Alpha kits [they "computer re-did" some of the line drawings in their downloadable booklets, to reflect their current examples of types of model rockets, such as boost-gliders, clustered rockets, etc.].) *SPEAKING OF* which (this is associated with the teacher-aimed Alpha kits):

One of their downloadable booklets (although this section may have changed--I forget which booklet it is) listed a Starter Set for teachers, so that teachers who were unfamiliar with model rocketry could "learn the ropes" before engaging in it with their students. This Starter Set contained a Porta-Pad, three or six motors, a Solar Launch Controller, and a Big Bertha kit (a pre-plastic nose cone one, I think). The Big Bertha had a simple but beautiful red, white, and blue paint scheme, and came with decals. (If you and/or anyone here happen/happens to have that booklet [or even the ad], it would be worthwhile for Estes to offer it--with that unique decor scheme--to teachers, Scout troop leaders, 4-H and other club coordinators, and even parents [who may have younger kids, but who aren't conversant with model rocketry].)I wonder when the last time they updated that Industrial Arts material. I’ve acquired some of that as I was doing the Alpha research....but nothing newer than perhaps 30 years old.My "Industrial Arts and Model Rocketry" booklet (its title is similar to that, if not exactly it)--which I bought in the 1990s, along with all of their other booklets--is the same age, with regard to the material in it (the Mosquito kits shown in the "assembly line project" had balsa rather than plastic nose cones).Also, I checked with Dan French, who is the local collector of all things Alpha and Alpha-like and he’s never heard of “Alpha S” so he, too, is very much interested in any more detail that John Ager (or anyone else) can supply on this variant.I'd never heard of an "Alpha S," either (although I just saw a limited-edition Alpha VI https://www.acsupplyco.com/estes/1958_alpha_vi.html on AC Supply's website).

[blackshire]

The typed instructions in this kit could have resulted by way of a number of different pathways, possibly within Estes OR produced by a local group.

But, the really intriguing thing is that face card, and I suspect those are not just printed, in color at that, on a whim. THAT tells me this must have been done in some decent numbers to have made it worth doing a ‘custom’ face card. It’s not that much different, but it IS different nonetheless.

The ‘S’ could stand for ‘school’, ‘scouts’, or even ‘special’. It will be interesting to discover the full story behind these, if possibly there is someone still at Estes who remembers or someone here who might recall having seen it somewhere else.

EarlI wonder--if no one now at Estes knows--if Lee Piester might know. While he was Centuri's President, Centuri and Estes were "joined at the accounts receivable ledger" (although run separately) for a long time.

[BEC]

This was only Now brought to my attention !

NO, NO. The S is a SPECIAL Maxi Alpha made Only as a Retailer’s display kit for the New Maxi Alpha. It was only used , and by Bob Cannon, from a 1977-78 Retailer’s assortment. It was Never available as a kit, nor in any catalog. It was for Display to get attention of kids wanting larger kits. Period. This is fact. What you have is simply an updated Alpha Kit when the decal colors were changed. The S was sesignated 1291-S " Special Maxi Alpha". Nothing more. ......

I don't think so, Danny. This model is BT-50 based and only 1/2 inch longer than a regular one. It's certainly no version of the BT-80-based 1291. It uses the PNC-50KA nose cone (the first blow-molded Alpha nose cone, as introduced on Alpha II).

Are you saying that the 1291-S was just a barely-strecthed regular Alpha of that time frame?

Go back and look at the third picture in post #84. Also look at the instructions in post #97.

[Tau Zero]

Any day now I expect the metric system to take hold. My teacher said so in 1975. Any day now...........I remember my 4th grade teacher saying in 1971, "You're all going to have to learn this, because we'll officially be converting over in 1980."

At the library a few years back, I found a book called, "Whatever Happened to the Metric System?"

The upshot of it? IIRC, apparently the whole US "conversion" scenario was apparently just a recommendation, and all President Reagan had to do was say, "Uh, yeah... *NO.*"

Again, IIRC.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Metric_Board

"The metrification assessment board existed from 1975 to 1982, ending when President Ronald Reagan abolished it, largely on the suggestion of Frank Mankiewicz and Lyn Nofziger."

[tbzep]

The upshot of it? IIRC, apparently the whole US "conversion" scenario was apparently just a recommendation, and all President Reagan had to do was say, "Uh, yeah... *NO.*"

Gov Reagan signed the Wedsworth-Townsend Paramedic Act, eventually leading to the tv show, Emergency!
Pres Reagan killed off the metric system (except in science).
Greatest Governor/President EVER! :D

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

IIRC, apparently the whole US "conversion" scenario was apparently just a recommendation, and all President Reagan had to do was say, "Uh, yeah... *NO.*"

Should have said the same thing to algebra. :mad:

[tbzep]

Should have said the same thing to algebra. :mad:
I'm sure some former Math Club member is saying the same thing about our favorite class, P.E. :chuckle:

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

I'm sure some former Math Club member is saying the same thing about our favorite class, P.E. :chuckle:

(Homer Simpson voice) "Mmmm. Dodgeball."

[Tau Zero]

Should have said the same thing to algebra. :mad:Oddly enough, I've had to use algebra several times in the last 20 years to correctly up and downscale some rockets.

...Although I *DID* use a calculator instead of doing the equations in my head. :eek: :rolleyes:

"Your mileage..."

.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Oddly enough, I've had to use algebra several times in the last 20 years to correctly up and downscale some rockets.

...Although I *DID* use a calculator instead of doing the equations in my head. :eek: :rolleyes:

"Your mileage..."

.

That's not algebra. It's math. Algebra is spelling numbers.

[tbzep]

Bill is right. Cross multiply and divide is just math. Algebra is what Satan did to math.

BTW, did you guys know that when I tell kids to do that in science class it blows their friggin minds? They are taught some wacked out fooked up way to do that stuff in this modern crap they call math.

If you are wondering what I was doing, I was teaching them how transformers work and how to step up or step down the voltage with the number of windings on either side. ;)

They go bat crap crazy when I use shortcuts like crossing out zeros when I divide large numbers. I tell them not to watch me doing stuff like that because I'd have to kick the math teacher's butt when she complains to me for messing them up. Yes....middle and high school kids. SMH

[LeeR]

Bill is right. Cross multiply and divide is just math. Algebra is what Satan did to math.



Algebra is child’s play. Satan more likely did his most evil deeds coming up with Linear Algebra and Differential Equations. :)
I took both of those after two years of calculus in engineering school at Colorado. Minored in Math, I think the degree was called Applied Mathematics from the School of Engineering (I was in EE). Still not sure what I was thinking, but where it really paid off was some part-time home schooling of my kids in math in the 90s. We refused to let them go thru the CSMP math program (Comprehensive School Mathematics Program) in the 90s after realizing what it was (representing numbers using dots on a 2x2 square/grid). My oldest I coachedin the evenings, she just had it one year then was off to junior high. My youngest was in 4th grade, and was very confused and upset. The teacher was awful, to make matters worse. We had her pulled from the classroom every day during math and she was the principal’s assistant for one hour every day. She actually really liked that. The principal was wonderful.

[Blushingmule]

Algebra was my nemesis while a junior in high school; the class was taught by an assistant coach.
Senior year ('79) we had business math with a different teacher; made total sense.

Less than a year later while studying aircraft maintenence, I made an A as opposed to the previous F in Algebra. The instructor made the difference.

Never had trig, love geometry, but College Algebra ~ 2001 while majoring in Forestry was Sanskrit to me.
Tutoring, trying a new teacher did no good. It dawned on me that if one doesn't grasp the concepts, it's a waste of time.

Bob
p.s. dropped all classes, retired and was glad to be done with with "modern" college.

[Royatl]

Algebra was my nemesis while a junior in Highschool; the class was taught by an assistant coach.
Senior year ('79) we had business math with a different teacher; made total sense.

Less than a year later while studying aircraft maintenence, I made an A as opposed to the previous F in Algebra. The instructor made the difference.

Never had trig, love geometry, but College Algebra ~ 2001 while majoring in Forestry was Sanskrit to me.
Tutoring, trying a new teacher did no good. It dawned on me that if one doesn't grasp the concepts, it's a waste of time.

Bob

Rocketry taught me everything, I knew basics of geometry and trig because of rocketry long before anyone in my class did, then Algebra was a breeze because I was working through the equations in the back of Estes' TR-10 (the altitude prediction charts). I didn't totally grok all the calculus, though I understood that it was doing the work of the repetitive time series equations in the Handbook of Model Rocketry, and I didn't understand why I was using hyperbolic tan, sine, and cosine, but the UGA Science Library wasn't too far away, and I could get what I needed from big books of math tables!. A few years later, rocketry helped me understand computers as I typed in the fortran programs from Model Rocketry Magazine. And I recoginized Forrest Mims's name (he wrote for Model Rocketry Magazine) on a book in Radio Shack about Understanding Computers, and by golly, it helped me Understand Computers!

[SCooke123]

Can we get back to the subject of the original post? I'm curious to learn more about the Alpha "S"
Can we get a better pic of the face card and instructions?

[tbzep]

Can we get back to the subject of the original post? I'm curious to learn more about the Alpha "S"
Can we get a better pic of the face card and instructions?
We're all waiting on him to get the good pics. Until then, none of us know anything more about the kit.

[blackshire]

We're all waiting on him to get the good pics. Until then, none of us know anything more about the kit....And Alpha, α (as in α Cen, for Alpha Centauri) *is* a mathematical symbol (in multiple fields, including this one [for angle of attack])--as are Sigma (as in 3-, 2-, and 1-Sigma accuracy in an achieved satellite orbit), Omega, etc.

[tbzep]

...And Alpha, α (as in α Cen, for Alpha Centauri) *is* a mathematical symbol (in multiple fields, including this one [for angle of attack])--as are Sigma (as in 3-, 2-, and 1-Sigma accuracy in an achieved satellite orbit), Omega, etc.
Good job making our off the path adventure fit the thread! :D
Math was easy for me. Algebra was easy. Algebra II...well, there were pretty girls in the class that year. Geometry was easy, but I didn't do it the way the teacher told us so I was always accused of cheating. I'd even do it in front of her and she'd say you can't do it that way.

Then I went to college and took a meteorology class for my minor. I thought it was a weather class. Nope. Pure physics. They said if you haven't had physics and calculus, to walk out now. I didn't. I hit the library for calculus and physics books and taught them to myself and passed the class! I won't say what grade I got, but I've never been so proud of a grade in my life!!!!

As a not so thrilled first hand witness to how math has evolved in schools over the last 50 years, I can say that some concepts they keep pushing to lower grades need to be done later in development when the human brain has matured a little more. Most of the math teachers I've talked to agree, though there's always those that have no life other than "the program" and want to teach Tensor Calculus to 4 year olds. (look it up and you'll swear it's the whole dang Greek alphabet)

Fractions are an enigma. Some people get it when they are little kids and others never quite grasp it as long as they live. General intelligence is not necessarily a factor, either. I've been around some extremely sharp folks that couldn't tell you whether 3/16 balsa is thicker or thinner than 1/8 balsa in a million years. (See how I brought it back to rockets? I learned that from Blackshire. lol)

Hurry up with those facecard and plan pics. I don't like math! :chuckle:

[blackshire]

Good job making our off the path adventure fit the thread! :D
Math was easy for me. Algebra was easy. Algebra II...well, there were pretty girls in the class that year. Geometry was easy, but I didn't do it the way the teacher told us so I was always accused of cheating. I'd even do it in front of her and she'd say you can't do it that way.

Then I went to college and took a meteorology class for my minor. I thought it was a weather class. Nope. Pure physics. They said if you haven't had physics and calculus, to walk out now. I didn't. I hit the library for calculus and physics books and taught them to myself and passed the class! I won't say what grade I got, but I've never been so proud of a grade in my life!!!!

As a not so thrilled first hand witness to how math has evolved in schools over the last 50 years, I can say that some concepts they keep pushing to lower grades need to be done later in development when the human brain has matured a little more. Most of the math teachers I've talked to agree, though there's always those that have no life other than "the program" and want to teach Tensor Calculus to 4 year olds. (look it up and you'll swear it's the whole dang Greek alphabet)

Fractions are an enigma. Some people get it when they are little kids and others never quite grasp it as long as they live. General intelligence is not necessarily a factor, either. I've been around some extremely sharp folks that couldn't tell you whether 3/16 balsa is thicker or thinner than 1/8 balsa in a million years. (See how I brought it back to rockets? I learned that from Blackshire. lol)

Hurry up with those facecard and plan pics. I don't like math! :chuckle:Thank you. Math even has a color now--some public school teachers (I've heard them say it in interviews) say that mathematics is a "white" activity (*SIGH*; that's reason No. 4,376 to home-school one's kids, or send them to private schools...). Also:

The great mathematicians--almost to a person--say that they *visualize* the things they generate formulae for (ditto for physicists; Einstein developed Relativity by imagining what the world would look like if he could travel on a wave of light). I am not a great mathematician, but I have always pictured objects or phenomena when doing arithmetic in my head, or when I solved algebraic word problems--and that is a two-edged sword:

Once a problem reaches a level of complexity at which I can no longer picture what's going on, I can't create the equation; moreover, even if I see the equation in a book, it's meaningless to me, and I can't even get a feel for when I'm approaching the correct solution--I can only plug in numbers, with no feel for what a graph of it will look like.

I never had any problem with fractions, though, as I find them--and always have--easy to visualize, including their common denominators when adding, subtracting, multiplying, or dividing fractions of different denominators.

[Initiator001]

Getting back on topic...

I have purchased two Alpha kits in the past month.

One shows the facecard as in my original post from July 4, 2017. However, it now shows a RED nosecone.

The date stamped on this facecard is 08/23/17.

Estes must have used up the WHITE nosecone facecards or had another run of facecards done with the RED nosecone and quickly put them into circulation.

TBD...

[Initiator001]

...The second Alpha I purchased uses the current facecard presentation layout.

It has a date of 09/12/19.

[Initiator001]

Here's a picture of the WHITE and RED nosecone facecards side-by-side.

[PaulK]

<snip>Here’s some comparative stuff I assembled a few years ago for an Alpha 50th anniversary bash at the Museum of Flight.That's a nice comparison photo, Bernard!

[Royatl]

Getting back on topic...

I have purchased two Alpha kits in the past month.

One shows the facecard as in my original post from July 4, 2017. However, it now shows a RED nosecone.

The date stamped on this facecard is 08/23/17.

Estes must have used up the WHITE nosecone facecards or had another run of facecards done with the RED nosecone and quickly put them into circulation.

TBD...

I think in the last months of Hobbico's reign, they hired a very silly graphics designer who did those dumb stretched-perpective face cards and went for the pastel colors. I noticed the first hire the Langfords' made was a new graphics designer, who kept the good parts of that packaging design and fixed them up in later iterations (the Astrocam has another variation-- italics on the kit title).

[blackshire]

Here's a picture of the WHITE and RED nosecone facecards side-by-side.I'm glad they went (back) to the red nose; the white one looked too plain (and it's looks that attract people to buy kits, especially if they're beginners; later, when they have knowledge, other factors such as performance and particular flight characteristics--and scale realism, if they're into that--attract them, too).

[BEC]

And here is the latest iteration. I picked this one up at my nearest LHS today. Revision date on the face card is 12-19. Production date of the kit is 01/09/20. The instructions are 7-18 revsion, so the same as those that came with the blue background face card Bob posted on July 31st (a few posts back).

The art finally shows the motor sticking out of the back, which it should since the motor mount has been instructed to protrude 3/8 of an inch for about 10 years now. It also has something closer to the true shape of the nose cone rather than one that looks more like the original BNC-50K/PNC-50KA shape. It's about time, since this has been the nose cone shape since about 1993......

I was hoping that Estes had reverted to waterslide decals in this iteration as they have gone to waterslides for many recent releases and the fairly recent re-relase of the Nova Payloader went back to waterslides. But no, they're still peel-n-stick in this January 2020 kit.

The rest of the details of the kit itself also appear to be unchanged basically since the orange/white parachutes became available. This particular one has some fairly light C-grain balsa fins.

Oddly the instructions back to ~2010 have you paint the colored fin red, despite what the face card shows.

[BEC]

…and one more update. Since this post I acquired a later production date version of the kit with this same face card, and the instructions, finally, are fixed to call out painting the colored fin blue so that it matches the face card.

I built one from a recent kit and painted it this way (and with the motor mount slid aft as it has been for 8+ years). I, so far, have left off the upper two-color band as shown in this face card in order to represent the most current version of the model. But it somehow looks wrong without those two bands at the top of the body.

[blackshire]

…and one more update. Since this post I acquired a later production date version of the kit with this same face card, and the instructions, finally, are fixed to call out painting the colored fin blue so that it matches the face card.

I built one from a recent kit and painted it this way (and with the motor mount slid aft as it has been for 8+ years). I, so far, have left off the upper two-color band as shown in this face card in order to represent the most current version of the model. But it somehow looks wrong without those two bands at the top of the body.Thank you for the update. I agree; as with the early (with red plastic parts and a white-painted body tube) Alpha III kits that came *without* the fore & aft black roll pattern decals (see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/catalogs/estes711/711est16.html [a picture of one remained in the Alpha III instructions long after those now-standard--although a different color, orange, now--decals appeared in the kit]), your latest Alpha looks incomplete without the two forward band decals.

[K'Tesh]

…and one more update. Since this post I acquired a later production date version of the kit with this same face card, and the instructions, finally, are fixed to call out painting the colored fin blue so that it matches the face card.

I built one from a recent kit and painted it this way (and with the motor mount slid aft as it has been for 8+ years). I, so far, have left off the upper two-color band as shown in this face card in order to represent the most current version of the model. But it somehow looks wrong without those two bands at the top of the body.

Still "Peel and Stick"? Or have they figured out that we want waterslide?

[ghrocketman]

I was VERY disappointed to find the reissue Citation Patriot (and the Classic series Scissor-Wing Transport) have those peel-n-CUSS lousy decals as well instead of PROPER water-slides.
Only slightly more useful than a Bowling Ball in a Swimming Pool.

[BEC]

Still "Peel and Stick"? Or have they figured out that we want waterslide?
No, peel-n-stick still. Considering the Alpha has always been intended for novices first, all the way back to its debut in the December 1965 MRN, and having done a bunch of group builds where the stickers get put on unpainted models and the kids have fun with them anyway, I kind of doubt they will revert to waterslides here (or on Alpha III).

They have gone back to waterslides on some re-releases of models that had peel-n-stick for a time, however. Nova Payloader is one.

I was VERY disappointed to find the reissue Citation Patriot (and the Classic series Scissor-Wing Transport) have those peel-n-CUSS lousy decals as well instead of PROPER water-slides.
Only slightly more useful than a Bowling Ball in a Swimming Pool.
The reissue Citation Patriot I built and the one in my kit stash I just checked both have waterslide decals.

[tbzep]

No, peel-n-stick still. Considering the Alpha has always been intended for novices first, all the way back to its debut in the December 1965 MRN, and having done a bunch of group builds where the stickers get put on unpainted models and the kids have fun with them anyway, I kind of doubt they will revert to waterslides here (or on Alpha III).

They have gone back to waterslides on some re-releases of models that had peel-n-stick for a time, however. Nova Payloader is one.
BEC, you're right. Kids can end up with some pretty rough looking rockets and still have a ball with them.

Peel-n-cuss are catch-22. They are a simple one step application decal, which sounds great for novices and makes sense for Estes. However, they aren't forgiving and novices and more experienced modelers alike have trouble locating them and making them look good in comparison to a decent waterslide. I agree that the rockets that are aimed toward the novice will probably never go back to waterslide. All the more reason to make your own decals!

[BEC]

BEC, you're right. Kids can end up with some pretty rough looking rockets and still have a ball with them.
And fortunately the Alpha is very tolerant of being built "roughly" and still flies safely. Bill Simon got it right.

Peel-n-cuss are catch-22. They are a simple one step application decal, which sounds great for novices and makes sense for Estes. However, they aren't forgiving and novices and more experienced modelers alike have trouble locating them and making them look good in comparison to a decent waterslide.
This was in the back of my mind as I typed the prior comments. I don't like applying them at all, if I need to put them in a particular place. The aforementioned two stripes at the top of the Alpha body tube, or the fin flashes (which are also too big, especially if the clear margin is left fully in place all the way around) are both royal pains. I was finishing up the rebuild of my most-flown Alpha yesterday (I should do a "rebuild thread") and even with a layer of window cleaner on the tube underneath as I think scigs30 has suggested, it was still a pain to get them where I wanted them to go.

I agree that the rockets that are aimed toward the novice will probably never go back to waterslide. All the more reason to make your own decals!
I will have to try that some time.

[Blushingmule]

Hi all,

I use a small bowl of lukewarm water with a few drops of dish detergent (nixes the
surface tension of the water and lubricates).
Apply with a brush, slide decal where you like, lift, re-position, etc. Blot
with paper towel and let dry over nite. Works like a charm.

Bob

[blackshire]

And fortunately the Alpha is very tolerant of being built "roughly" and still flies safely. Bill Simon got it right.


This was in the back of my mind as I typed the prior comments. I don't like applying them at all, if I need to put them in a particular place. The aforementioned two stripes at the top of the Alpha body tube, or the fin flashes (which are also too big, especially if the clear margin is left fully in place all the way around) are both royal pains. I was finishing up the rebuild of my most-flown Alpha yesterday (I should do a "rebuild thread") and even with a layer of window cleaner on the tube underneath as I think scigs30 has suggested, it was still a pain to get them where I wanted them to go.


I will have to try that some time.This situation creates an opportunity for people to create (and sell to others, if they wish) after-market, water-slide duplicates of the peel 'n stick decals that are used in new (and in the old, but classic and timeless [Alpha, Alpha III, Big Bertha, etc.] beginners' model rocket kits). The Experts Choice home-printable decal film sheets that Bare-Metal Foil carries (they are available in clear and white background types, for making white as well as colored decals https://www.bare-metal.com/experts-choice-decal-film.html [this page also includes tips and tricks for using the decal sheets]) enable anyone with a printer/scanner/copier (or even just a printer, given "elsewhere-sourced" decal scan files on memory sticks, or on the computer's hard drive) to make his or her own water-transfer decals.

[BEC]

Thanks for the link, Jason.

Of course in this case I’d use actual decals for scanning/duplicating because I have access to them. The art work on the peel-n-stick Alpha markings in recent kits (since the move to China in ~2003) is less sharp and has some details in the drop shadows that are lost. The US peel-n-sticks (starting ~1996) are accurate reproductions of the red/blue waterslides that appeared ~1989.

Oddly, the opposite is true on the Nova Payloader. The first version of the graphics from the first and second releases of the model were on waterslides and when it was re-drawn for the peel-n-stick version the revised artwork was much sharper. This latter version is what was redone in waterslide for the current bulk-package-only version of the Nova Payloader one can get from AC Supply (not in the current Estes catalog). But all of that is really for another thread…. :)

[BEC]

....and it looks like there is another variation in the offing. This is from an eBay posting but it appears to be a new face card that succeeds the ones without the upper stripes that I thought were the most current.

Stripes are back, blue fin is on the other side relative to the big "Alpha" logo.

[blackshire]

....and it looks like there is another variation in the offing. This is from an eBay posting but it appears to be a new face card that succeeds the ones without the upper stripes that I thought were the most current.

Stripes are back, blue fin is on the other side relative to the big "Alpha" logo.They're reproducing like Osmonds (and my books)!

[K'Tesh]

....and it looks like there is another variation in the offing. This is from an eBay posting but it appears to be a new face card that succeeds the ones without the upper stripes that I thought were the most current.

Stripes are back, blue fin is on the other side relative to the big "Alpha" logo.


And then there's that nosecone... At least in the photo you posted, it looks a lot pointer than the typical Alpha's nosecone...

Current posted instructions on their site calls for a 071028 nosecone, but that does match the PNC-50KA which has been the traditional nosecone for the kit.

[blackshire]

And then there's that nosecone... At least in the photo you posted, it looks a lot pointer than the typical Alpha's nosecone...

Current posted instructions on their site calls for a 071028 nosecone, but that does match the PNC-50KA which has been the traditional nosecone for the kit.Indeed it does look too long (for an Alpha), but:

Having learned that Estes' artwork is sometimes misleading (not intentionally, I think; I wonder if it's done in China, too?), such as some Journey Launch Set packaging--the wedge-shaped boxes--showing a four-finned, rather than three-finned, Journey rocket, I guess an (as-yet-un-printed) "Style may vary slightly from how product is depicted" notice should apply.

[Royatl]

While Chris Michaels and others still build physical prototypes of kits for Estes, the package art is now almost all computer generated, and I believe it is still done here in the USA. They have advertised for an art director at least a couple of times since the Langfords bought the place. The current packaging design is from the last couple of years of the Hobbico ownership, and whoever it was seemed to LOVE forced perspective, leading to ridiculously elongated images of rockets with otherwise well known proportions.

Current management has tweaked this packaging instead of replacing it, mostly for the better, but I guess some files still remain referencing the forced perspective, or at least idealized shapes and not actual.

As far as the nose cone itself, it has been pointier since a mold replacement in the early 2000's, as best I can tell. Someone made the decision (maybe because it was easier in CAM tools) to base the PNC-50K on simple geometry rather than the bezier splines that were used to approximate the old balsa cone's shape.

[BEC]

While Chris Michaels and others still build physical prototypes of kits for Estes, the package art is now almost all computer generated, and I believe it is still done here in the USA. They have advertised for an art director at least a couple of times since the Langfords bought the place. The current packaging design is from the last couple of years of the Hobbico ownership, and whoever it was seemed to LOVE forced perspective, leading to ridiculously elongated images of rockets with otherwise well known proportions.

Current management has tweaked this packaging instead of replacing it, mostly for the better, but I guess some files still remain referencing the forced perspective, or at least idealized shapes and not actual.

As far as the nose cone itself, it has been pointier since a mold replacement in the early 2000's, as best I can tell. Someone made the decision (maybe because it was easier in CAM tools) to base the PNC-50K on simple geometry rather than the bezier splines that were used to approximate the old balsa cone's shape.

All of this is correct, except that in my research (backed up by kits in hand from eBay, mostly), the mold was replaced in ~1993. The Chinese-made nose cones match the shape of the nose cones that appeared just after the "red, white or blue nose cone" period, which was 1989-1992 in the catalogs, and during which you might get the original PHC-50KA, a red (or very rarely, blue) Alpha III nose cone, or the newer shape PNC-50KA (which is the current shape) in the kit.

And then there's that nosecone... At least in the photo you posted, it looks a lot pointer than the typical Alpha's nosecone...

Current posted instructions on their site calls for a 071028 nosecone, but that does match the PNC-50KA which has been the traditional nosecone for the kit.
You and I have already talked about these two different PNC-50KAs in PMs.

The artwork on the web site and elsewhere is FINALLY catching up to what the Alpha has looked like since 1993.

I need to post that nose cone shape comparison picture again. Here is one....with an Alpha III nose cone off to one side for contrast.

[ghrocketman]

The original BALSA cone is the only REAL Alpha cone.
That cone had no variations I know of.
When they redesigned the color scheme ~1983 it went from "Very Basic" in my book to "yuck".

[K'Tesh]

I propose that we refer to the current version of the 071028 nosecone as the PNC-50KA2 to help differentiate it from the older PNC-50KA nosecone.

Man I wish they'd go back to it... I find its shape more aesthetically pleasing than the KA2.

[Royatl]

The original BALSA cone is the only REAL Alpha cone.
That cone had no variations I know of.
When they redesigned the color scheme ~1983 it went from "Very Basic" in my book to "yuck".

It had constant variations depending on the condition of the plunge grinder in "Mary Poppins" :)

[Royatl]

the mold was replaced in ~1993.

ok, I'll accept that. I would say that was about the time they switched to the blue decals, but I think the Alpha that Vern was holding in the photo with me and the Mega Alpha at NARAM 33 was a blue decalled Alpha. Somewhere in storage I have six black decaled Alpha kits. Hope the decals are still good when I eventually pull them out.

[BEC]

The BNC-50K is the cone I remember on the Alpha.
Yeah, but millions of them have been made since the last one had a balsa nose cone in the kit in 1983 or 1984. Interestingly, the 1983 catalog calls out balsa for the nose cone in the Alpha description but the little symbology that accompanies the description has the symbol for a plastic one.

The first PNC-50KA is actually a little “fatter” about halfway from the shoulder to the tip than the BNC-50K. The sides are almost parallel for about the first inch up from the base. Here are the noses of three built Alphas. The one on the left has a genuine Estes BNC-50K from a partial kit I got in one eBay lot. The one in the middle is built from an early ‘80s kit and has the first PNC-50KA and the one on the right is the model in the first picture in the “Speaking of the Electro-Launch” thread….built from a 2020 kit. So it has what Jim (K’Tesh) suggests we call a PNC-50KA2 (as does every Alpha kit from ~1993 to the present, whether US-made or made in China).

There have been a bunch of recent and upcoming Estes kit releases with new blow-molded parts, so I don’t think it would be impossible for them to make a plastic nose cone that truly matches the original BNC-50K (or a good example of the type, bearing in mind the comment about “Mary Poppins”). I’ve already written to suggest that. But I’m sure it will take more than me to get us there….

Oh and Roy—I built an early 1980s Alpha kit not all that long ago, and the black/red decal was just fine. It’s the model in the second picture.

[LeeR]

Bernard,

Just how many built Alphas do you have?

Roy, how about you?

[BEC]

Bernard,

Just how many built Alphas do you have?

Roy, how about you?
Let’s see….50th anniversary one (left in the nose cone picture above), clone of first version with some original parts (up on a high shelf with Bill Simon’s “signature” on it), clone of my first one from when I was a kid (mostly Semroc parts but with hand-cut fins), bulk kit one from early 2000s, which has 99 flights on it and should get #100 tomorrow or Saturday at Sod Blaster, the other two in the nose cone grouping and the yellow one on the pad. That’s seven.

I also have an Alpha II clone made with Semroc parts (including the erroneously-shaped Semroc laser cut fin set). I also built a recent bulk Alpha but substituted PST-50 and PST-20 for the tubes so that I have essentially a “Phantom Alpha” for use in group Alpha build sessions at the Museum of Flight.

I’ve done a bunch of Alpha IIIs, one Alpha IV and two Alpha VIs also (and one Rocket Science Starter Set rocket, which is an Alpha VI except for the colors). Also three Phantoms from clear Alpha III parts including one of the recent re-releases.

I have one Super Alpha (BT-60 version with the original balsa nose cone), one scratch BT-60-based more accurate upscale Alpha which is scaled up from the original version, and a Maxi Alpha III.

Some of these Alphas are here in Pacsco with me for Sod Blaster - the 2020 kit one, the yellow 1982 one and the BT-60 upscale along with the 99-flight bulk Alpha. And my wife has her late-‘70’s-clone in our college alma mater colors here, too.

[ghrocketman]

I have exactly ZERO in my built or kit pile.
Was way too boring even back in 1977.
I got the Citation Quasar and Patriot as first rockets.

I have a Maxi Alpha (NOT MA-3) , which I think makes a FINE first rocket.

[Royatl]

Bernard,

Just how many built Alphas do you have?

Roy, how about you?

Assuming we’re just talking about normal sized Alphas, three. Though one only flew once before being signed by Vern in Dallas at NARAM 32 and is officially retired. One is the workaday flyer with a Phantom nose. And the third is a plain Jane that has been put through the ringer. I also have two Alpha IIIs, a IV, and a VI.

[Royatl]

Of course, I still have the Mega Alpha (the 5.4” upscale that hasn’t flown since Southern Thunder ‘14 on a J270). Lost my last balsa-coned Super Alpha a few years ago. Swore off MaxiAlpha 3 a long time ago. I have Semroc parts and Sandman decals for a proper bt80 upscale. But all in storage.

[BEC]

I can undertand swearing off the Maxi Alpha 3. I got one early in my BAR period but it certainly is not a favorite and hasn’t been flown in a long long time.

OTOH I put up a plain old bulk Alpha for its 100th flight today, on a C18-6W. It got to 1246 feet in a hurry. And winds were so light all day today at Sod Blaster 3 that the walk was not long at all.

[ghrocketman]

I once ripped the fins CLEAN OFF a buddy's MA3 with a lowly Composite Dynamics E20-4.
They shredded off at about 300' and continued straight up to about 700'.
My buddy's response was "Geez, thanx for the motor".
I told him he should have used BETTER GLUE.

[john ager]

I once ripped the fins CLEAN OFF a buddy's MA3 with a lowly Composite Dynamics E20-4.
They shredded off at about 300' and continued straight up to about 700'.
My buddy's response was "Geez, thanx for the motor".
I told him he should have used BETTER GLUE.

The Maxi Alpha has it's flaws that's for sure but a little application of epoxy and the issues go away. When I restored mine I used BSI 30 min. epoxy to attach the fins then gave them a fillet.

Results look better than anything Estes could have hoped for an i've gotten several flights on the E20, E30 and F44 motors without issue. The F44 causes some fin flutter but it has held together without any issues.

[mojo1986]

The Maxi Alpha has it's flaws that's for sure but a little application of epoxy and the issues go away. When I restored mine I used BSI 30 min. epoxy to attach the fins then gave them a fillet.

Results look better than anything Estes could have hoped for an i've gotten several flights on the E20, E30 and F44 motors without issue. The F44 causes some fin flutter but it has held together without any issues.


My compliments. That's a great looking bird. The fins almost look plastic.

[john ager]

The fins are plastic. It still has the stock fins and fin can. Just assembled with epoxy and added filler to cover the gaps.

[mojo1986]

The fins are plastic. It still has the stock fins and fin can. Just assembled with epoxy and added filler to cover the gaps.


:o Well I guess that explains that! But still a great looking bird.

[DeanHFox]

When I saw "Maxi Alpha 3", I read it as MAXI - Alpha 3, and my first (and only) Alpha 3 was the orange/black scheme, so I did my MA3 in that scheme. :)