I need a FSI (Flight Systems) history lesson?

[2ahoser]

Hi there,

I am getting more and more confused about FSI history. When I was younger ( in the early '80's) FSI stuff was available. I thought they had gone out of business back then. But, on ebay, I have seen catalogs for sale that list the '90's?

So, anyone out there have a time line, a web link or just some information on this company?

I am curious that no-one has bought the company, reproduced the kits and motors. After all, I would still by their F100 and E motors!! Who owns the rights to the company?

Any information would be greatly appreciated,
Thanks,
Bob

[stefanj]

FSI may have gone vewwy, vewwy quiet for a few years after 1984, when the driving force behind the rocketry division, Lonnie Reese, was killed in an auto accident.

They were putting out catalogs and such again by the time I got back into the hobby (1988). They went under for good around 1993.

I think the Reese family ran out of interest and expertise after Harold Reese, who made the motors, died.

[Royatl]

Hi there,

I am getting more and more confused about FSI history. When I was younger ( in the early '80's) FSI stuff was available. I thought they had gone out of business back then. But, on ebay, I have seen catalogs for sale that list the '90's?

So, anyone out there have a time line, a web link or just some information on this company?

I am curious that no-one has bought the company, reproduced the kits and motors. After all, I would still by their F100 and E motors!! Who owns the rights to the company?

Any information would be greatly appreciated,
Thanks,
Bob


StefanJ is pretty much on the money. They continued to make special effects motors for various clients (movies and such), they obtained one or two of the MPC/AVI motor machines and introduced a line of 18mm A-C motors which they sold through hobby shops in the late 80's and early 90's when Quest somehow obtained the machines from them. They continued to make the 21 and 27 mm motors until Harold Reese died. I have F100s and F7s made in 1980 and in 1988

[barone]

...... I have F100s and F7s made in 1980 and in 1988I loved the F7s :D

[Royatl]

I loved the F7s :D

You wouldn't love these. Everyone I tried (even when they were fresh) created an exciting cato. It got to where I made special throwaway two stage rockets to see if by chance one would work. Boost it up to a safe altitude on a D12-0 and then see what happens (it always blew!).

It was very annoying, because Romie Lucas bought his motors from the same hobby store (B&B in Loganville, GA) and he never had a cato (or rarely).

[timmwood]

Here's an article I posted on my web site about my adventures with the F7:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8521/steamrock.html
My one three-pack of F7s didn't CATO, but I had some wild times with it.
I bought lots of stuff from FSI in the early 90s. I appreciate the history info in this thread. I once actually tried to track down their address in Raytown, Mo. All I found was a house in a residential neighborhood. Maybe that was their mailing address. I heard unofficially that they operated out of an old Nike missile station.
timmwood

[barone]

Here's an article I posted on my web site about my adventures with the F7:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8521/steamrock.html
My one three-pack of F7s didn't CATO, but I had some wild times with it.
I bought lots of stuff from FSI in the early 90s. I appreciate the history info in this thread. I once actually tried to track down their address in Raytown, Mo. All I found was a house in a residential neighborhood. Maybe that was their mailing address. I heard unofficially that they operated out of an old Nike missile station.
timmwoodDaja Vu.....I did the same thing and found just a house. I later found out from a fellow club member that the actual plant was further east of town, towards the Air Force Base. Could have easily been an old missile facility.

[timmwood]

I heard somewhere that FSI actually made motors for Quest. Perhaps FSI made Quest motors for awhile, then sold them the machines. I understand Quest made their motors for a period of time, and now their motors come from Germany..
In the two to three years that I bought stuff from FSI, the only difference in their annual catalogs was the date on the cover.
One of their kits was a scale model fo the Sandia Sandhawk. I converted it to D motors and it was an impressive flyer. The fins, though, were one-quarter-inch balsa, which seemed out of scale!
Their tube-fin rockets, the Viking series, were pretty cool.
I hope Semroc resurrects some FSI kits or expands their parts collection to make it easier to clone FSI kits.
For the F7 fans - how about Apogee's long-burning composite F motors? It would seem to be much safer than a mammoth black powder motor.
The FSI catalogs also had a page that said the "Thunderbolts" were coming and had some data for a G-level motors. There was a rubber-stamped "not available" message on that page of the catalog. I wonder if the "Thunderbolts" were composite motors or an even bigger black powder motor?
timmwood

[Bazookadale]

I am curious that no-one has bought the company, reproduced the kits and motors. After all, I would still by their F100 and E motors!! Who owns the rights to the company?

Any information would be greatly appreciated,
Thanks,
Bob

I wonder about that myself - I heard a number of years ago that someone ( I forget who ) had bought the old 21 and 27 mm presses, but obviously no product in all that time. Shoot I'd buy them if the price were right!

[2ahoser]

Thanks for all the responses.
It just seem strange to me that a certified NRA motor would just go away that fast. Plus, the kits would most likely sell in todays market. Semroc ( along with others) have shown a market for the older kits.

I did not know that Quest and FSI had a link. I have been waiting to see Quest's new "D" motors, so may be we will see larger motors from them?

I still have some F100's and they were like 50/50 at some launches. But FSI D and E motors where great. Nothing like my old Echo 1 going up on two E motors. Those were the days.....

Keep the information coming, hopefully I can get a better understanding of the history of FSI.

Thanks,
Bob

[timmwood]

I had an Echo that I launched on a D20 booster with an E5-6 in the upper stage. The high thrust of the D got the rocket going well and then the long-burn E made for a nice show.
If FSI motors magically reappeared on the market, I think I'd go for the 21mm motors but stay away from the 27mm E and F motors. There are just too many composite motor options out there now that would be less prone to CATOs.
timmwood

[Doug Sams]

I had an Echo that I launched on a D20 booster with an E5-6 in the upper stage. The high thrust of the D got the rocket going well and then the long-burn E made for a nice show.Sounds sweet. I build my Echo I with 18mm mounts. Much more subdued in flight :)
If FSI motors magically reappeared on the market, I think I'd go for the 21mm motors but stay away from the 27mm E and F motors. There are just too many composite motor options out there now that would be less prone to CATOs.But you can't beat BP for ease of staging.

Doug

[Tau Zero]

I hope Semroc resurrects some FSI kits or expands their parts collection to make it easier to clone FSI kits.Timm (and 2ahoser),

Here ya go for starters: http://www.semroc.com/Store/Scripts/xref.asp?company=FSI

But then, you probably already knew about that link. :eek: :rolleyes: ;) :D


Cheers,

[Initiator001]

The FSI catalogs also had a page that said the "Thunderbolts" were coming and had some data for a G-level motors. There was a rubber-stamped "not available" message on that page of the catalog. I wonder if the "Thunderbolts" were composite motors or an even bigger black powder motor?
timmwood

The Thunderbolt motors were composite propellant motors.

Here are some pictures of the G60 Thunderbolt in my collection.

Bob

[barone]

The Thunderbolt motors were composite propellant motors.

Here are some pictures of the G60 Thunderbolt in my collection.

BobAnd here I thought the Thunderbolts were vaporware :eek:

[Jackson Roykirk]

I remember the Thunderbolts from one of the last Pitcons. Someone flew one at that launch.

The F100s (and E60 and D20) were 100% reliable when ignited at the nozzle like conventional BP motors, instead of at the top of the core like a composite. I'd love to see the return of big honken cored BP motors, like FSI or Rocketflite.

[snaquin]

The Thunderbolt motors were composite propellant motors.

Here are some pictures of the G60 Thunderbolt in my collection.

Bob

That's an awesome motor for your collection! I wonder what the "special purpose" was for these rare motors that was referenced on the label?

.

[dwmzmm]

That's an awesome motor for your collection! I wonder what the "special purpose" was for these rare motors that was referenced on the label?

.

Going supersonic.... ;)

[rocketguy101]

The F100s (and E60 and D20) were 100% reliable when ignited at the nozzle like conventional BP motors, instead of at the top of the core like a composite. I'd love to see the return of big honken cored BP motors, like FSI or Rocketflite.

Yes, F100s were awesome! I have a 2 stager (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn8DfFikzro) w/ F100-0 booster and E5-6 sustainer that rocked! Unfortunately, the last time I flew it, I used a modern composite-type ignitor (rather than the old FSI ignitor), and lit the top of the core. There was a "BANG-whooooooooooooooooooooosh" as the F semi-cato'd and lit the sustainer! The rocket recovered normally, but the rear of it was toasted.

As stated earlier, BP motors are easier to stage, and that big honkin' nozzle of the F100 was sooooo cool to look at!

[dwmzmm]

Recently tried to fly my FSI OSO kit (newly built, I might add) with the F7-6 as part of the
NAR OOP motor testing program. Used one of my QuickBurst Hot Shot igniter for ignition.
But the F7 catoed immediately on ignition and made a nice, big fireball several feet off the
pad. The OSO was really toasted, burned to a crisp just above the fin can area. I found from
looking through my parts stash that I have a 27 mm tubing that can be used to easily repair
the OSO to look like new again.

[rocketguy101]

Here is the business end of an F100-0 and E5-6

[dwmzmm]

Here is the business end of an F100-0 and E5-6

Try sticking an icepick into the nozzle of the F100 and see how far it goes before it stops (I
think it's about six inches)...

[Initiator001]

That's an awesome motor for your collection! I wonder what the "special purpose" was for these rare motors that was referenced on the label?

.

I suspect it was developed for government/commercial/movie uses, i.e., not regular high-volume production.

Bob

[shockwaveriderz]

The only thing I can add about FSI, is that it got its start in mid-1966 with George Roos.
I gather that FSI was a wholly owned subsidairy of PyroChem,Inc.

The F100 was actually an E48; The D18 was more like a D5: at NARAM -13 alot of heavy scale modelers found this out the hard way. FSI sold mislabeled motors for most of their history.

check this blast from the past :

From NAR R-38 February 1997 :

"FSI F100 Now Designated F80 Flight Systems Inc. has relabeled their F100 model rocket motor as the F80. Under the definitions of a model rocket motor (cf. NFPA 1122), the average thrust must be 80 Newtons or less. Both remain certified for contest use and general use as a model rocket motor."

Where these 1997 FSI F100 more or less identical to the early 70's original FSI F100's?
whats funny about this is, in the original 1967 FSI catalog the F100 is the F18.... if you multiply 18 by 4.45 it comes to 80Ns. But instead of it being labeled as an F800 way back then, it was labeled a F100.


I gather the F100 was just a modified skyrocket motor in disguise like the earlier Coaster F's were.

whats intersting to me was that George Roos(FSI), Irv Wait(RDC) and John Rahkonen (Prodyne) ALL worked at the UTAH ICBM plant(that was built there in 1955)where the composite motors for the Minuteman I were made. Whats interesting about that is George didn't make any compsoites till the Thunderbolt, John is credited with being the person who developed the SRB solid propellent (he was a propellant chemist at Thiokol for like 30+ years). Whats funny about that was way back in the mid-50's, John was already making composite EX motors... Go Figure! and of course, Irv Wait developed the 1st composite model rocket motors, the Enerjet. All 3 of these guys knew each other while in Utah. Irv and John are both still alive and kickin!

anybody have a 68-69 FSI catalog they would be willing to to post somewhere?

Terry Dean
NAR 16158

[rocketguy101]

Try sticking an icepick into the nozzle of the F100 and see how far it goes before it stops (I
think it's about six inches)...
Close! I used a wooden dowel. Note the comparison to a Mini-Max motor!

[barone]

Recently tried to fly my FSI OSO kit (newly built, I might add) with the F7-6 as part of the
NAR OOP motor testing program. Used one of my QuickBurst Hot Shot igniter for ignition.
But the F7 catoed immediately on ignition and made a nice, big fireball several feet off the
pad. The OSO was really toasted, burned to a crisp just above the fin can area. I found from
looking through my parts stash that I have a 27 mm tubing that can be used to easily repair
the OSO to look like new again.Did you plug the nozzle? I heard that if you plugged the nozzle, they CATO nearly 100% of the time. When I started to just tape the igniter to the motor without blocking the nozzle, narey a CATO.

[stefanj]

The rumor about production being done at an old Nike base are true. A friend and I went there on the way back from LDRS in 1990.

We called the day before and got directions.

It was way in the middle of nowhere, at the end of a gravel road with a few farm houses on it.

There were a fair number of trees around. If there was a bunker or silo, it wasn't visible from the parking lot. There was one low, tan, 1950ish military building. We sat in one cluttered office and talked with Harold Reese while the secretary fetched our order of motors. He didn't seem very interested in LDRS or high power.

I remember that there was a framed copy of an article about the company from a recent AmSpac, or whatever is was called then.

Harold left after awhile. We asked the secretary if we could see some of the catalog models. I was curious about the official paint job. Yoiks! Real let down. I did a far better job of finishing and painting.

One other thing I recall: There was a display case with fireworks and rocketry memorabilia. Military rockets and some Reese industries things I don't remember the details of.

[Phred]

As for the QUEST/FSI link:

FSI obtained the motor machine that once was owned by MPC/AVI. Somewhere , G Harry Stine had gotten his hands on the operating manual. Exactly what negotiations went on between G Harry and FSI, but FSI and QUEST both began selling 18mm motors that had appeared to come from the same motor machine. The MPC, FSI, and early QUEST 18mm motors in my collection all appear identical.

The next part is internet rumor, and I have no verification:
I believe that the machine ended up in QUEST's hands, and after an accident, it was scrapped.

Phred

[Chas Russell]

That's an awesome motor for your collection! I wonder what the "special purpose" was for these rare motors that was referenced on the label?


At the time that FSI introduced the "Thunderbolt" as a reply to the Irv Wait/Centuri Enerjets, the NAR did not recognize anything over 80 nt-secs as a model rocket motor. This is in part due to the years of work to just get model rocket motors accepted by the National Fire Prevention Association and others. I did get to see a couple of thunderbolts demo launched. Still, they were before (or in the case of the non-model rocket motors by Wait) or after thought on non-black powder motors.

Chas

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Here is the business end of an F100-0 and E5-6

Dude, you're killing me. My head's about to explode from joke overload. :( :rolleyes:

[dwmzmm]

Did you plug the nozzle? I heard that if you plugged the nozzle, they CATO nearly 100% of the time. When I started to just tape the igniter to the motor without blocking the nozzle, narey a CATO.

Nope, just used masking tape to hold the Hot Shot in place.

[Beaker]

My Thunderbolt is quite different from Bob's. It's an F32-12 with the markings stamped directly onto the case (which appears to be phenolic). The nozzle looks like its machined out of phenolic as well. The top half inch of the casing appears to be a separate piece of tube, although I don't know why that would be.

The length is 126mm (not counting the almost 2mm the nozzle extendsbeyond the casing) and the diameter is 28mm.

[Initiator001]

My Thunderbolt is quite different from Bob's. It's an F32-12 with the markings stamped directly onto the case (which appears to be phenolic). The nozzle looks like its machined out of phenolic as well. The top half inch of the casing appears to be a separate piece of tube, although I don't know why that would be.

The length is 126mm (not counting the almost 2mm the nozzle extendsbeyond the casing) and the diameter is 28mm.

Very interesting, Tom.

Do the markings list any sort of date or date code?

Bob

[Beaker]

The only markings are what you see on the side of the casing in the photo (the other side has no markings).

[stefanj]

The F32 was offered in the 1977 catalog, as I recall.

One of the guys in the North Shore Section had one. I don't remember seeing one fly.

[shockwaveriderz]

I noticed over on Ninfinger's that there aren't any FSI catalogs between 1972-1976. Somewhere in that time frame George Roos and FSi in Louisville, Co moved to Raytown,Mo under the leadership of the Reese brothers, Lonnie and Harold.

For those of you that have old Model Rocketeer mag collections from 1972-76, if you could take a look and look for AD's by FSI and see if and when the address changes or if there is any news reported during that time period.

Trying to understand why George Roos sold(?) and moved FSI to Raytown and the Reese's.

terry dean
nar 16158

[stefanj]

There was a 1974 catalog. I think it was labeled REESE INDUSTRIES and not FSI. Plain B&W cover showing a rocket on a launch pad. An inside shot on a black background, kind of stark.

[snaquin]

There was a 1974 catalog. I think it was labeled REESE INDUSTRIES and not FSI. Plain B&W cover showing a rocket on a launch pad. An inside shot on a black background, kind of stark.

Is this the catalog?

http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/catalogs/reese_rc1/rc1f.html

I've always wondered about this catalog in particular as to the date. Page three shows a three stage rocket "successfully test fired 4-16-72" but that's the only hint of a date in that publication that I've found.

.

[stefanj]

Yes, that's the one. I assume it was the 1974 catalog because that's when I got mine, but it could have been used for a few years.

I notice that the catalog says that FSI motors are "distributed" by Reese Industries.

FSI did have a few adverts in the NAR magazine of that time, but they were pretty sparse and the company was kind of under the radar.

I bought an OSO and a pack of D6 motors around 1975. I still have a couple of the goofy red and white boxes that the 21mm A-D motors came in. Someday I'll scan them.

[Bazookadale]

Trying to understand why George Roos sold(?) and moved FSI to Raytown and the Reese's.

terry dean
nar 16158

I remember reading that the Reese family wanted to buy an Estes distributorship but they wanted too much money up front. Roos gave them a much better deal and the Reese's were more agresive salesmen (sorry salepersons) than George. I think Roos sold the company and retired, can't say that for sure.