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Rocket Doctor
08-24-2007, 09:44 PM
Hello all my fellow rocketeers.

The Rocket Doctor is back, after a hiatus, it's hard to believe that the Estes Forum was shut down on April 21st.

I have been in the hobby for the past 43 years now, having built, flown aned lost a huge amount of rockets over these many years.

My main interest was Estes kits, but, I did have favorite Centuri kits, such as the Centuri Saturn V and the Mach 10.

I was, and the key word is was, a marketing consultant for Estes in one way or another for many years.

I was not an Estes employee, but, an independent consultant.

My designs included the Baby Bertha, Estres No 2 Skywriter, Screamin MiMi, Deluxe Super Shot Screw Machine (not my original name), Converter, and the 36 D Squared (wh8ich originally had another name)

I have put together at least 25 - 35 prototypes, and, was to have four of them produced at the beginning of this year (2007).

For those of you who had followed the Estes Forum or was a member, the Forum was taking off, with good ideas and suggestions and concerns.

I tried my best to make changes, but, met with resistance along the way.

The length of the shcok cords were supposed to have been changed, and, apparently they weren't.

I brought up your concerns about engines, new products, shock cords and the reintroduction of vintage kits.

I was very sincere with what i posted, exciting thing were supposed to have come along, but, at this point, I don't know.

I also tried to get Estes to particpate in NARCON,NSL and NARAM in one way or another.

And, I ppushed for anniversary products for the Estes 50th (June 12,2008)

Once again, I thank all of you for your support.

RD

Carl@Semroc
08-24-2007, 10:02 PM
RD,

You will notice that many of your old friends on the Estes forum are over here.

Good to see the ol' Doc back online.

UMRS
08-24-2007, 10:25 PM
Welcome doctor, look forward to being able to tap your knowledge :)

pdooley
08-24-2007, 10:39 PM
RD,
Good to see you back in a venue where you can share your knowledge.

I suppose even though the forum has changed we will not be privy to your real name.
That's cool. Besides, what fun would it be if we found out? :D

I look forward to hearing more about your Estes experiences now that you may have more freedom to discuss the subject.

Skippy
08-25-2007, 12:37 AM
Nice to have you here Doc. Tell us more about the Bell X-1 you had planned for Estes. Can we have it from Semroc now? :p

Rocket Doctor
08-25-2007, 06:55 AM
Hello everyone, Thank you for your kind words.

My identity has been out for some time now, Carl at Semroc figured it out.
My name is Ken Montanye NAR 9803 L1.

I want to Thank Carl for his hospitality during my recent visit to Semroc.

My goal is, if I hit the lottery, and both the powerball and mega million are way up (8/25) I would buy Estes and turn it back into a model rocket company and offer many great vintage kits.

I would also work on bringing back the original metal fin kwik fin alignment guide, I may still do that anyway.

No more plastic in the fin guide !!!!!

Once again I thank you all for your support.

The Bell X-1 was a true replica of the actual rocket plane, it had molded plastic parts combined with balsa, it was a really great looking rockeet.

By the way, the engine for the BHell X-1 was produced by a company in New Jersey called Reactrion Motors, Inc (1941 - 1972)

The engine was named the XLR-11, RMI also produced the engine for the X-15 and it was designated the XLR-99.

These engines (new) are on display at Edwards AFB in CA and at the Teterboro Aviation Hall of Fame in New Jersey.

You can go online and find alot of information on RMI, just put Reaction Motors in the address bar and click.

I am currently researching this company, and, I have visited a couple of test sites.

Stop back for some rocket chat......

CPMcGraw
08-25-2007, 07:43 AM
Hello everyone, Thank you for your kind words.

My identity has been out for some time now, Carl at Semroc figured it out.
My name is Ken Montanye NAR 9803 L1....

Ken,

If I've failed to say it before, welcome to our asylum! We're a true blend of mixed nuts around here...

And, if you're in need of an outlet for a few new designs, BARCLONE has plenty of room for additional designers!

BTW -- Check out what we've done with your Baby Bertha. Look for our GOONIES in the "Scrounged" thread under "Workbench | Projects"... :D

Rocket Doctor
08-25-2007, 08:23 AM
Craig

Thank you for your kind words.
Yes, indeed, I would like to see some of my latest designs produced, Shooting Star, Jump Zone and the Siren rocket. The Bell X-1 would need some molds.

I am open to suggestions, if you or anyone else is interested in producing my designs, let's talk.

Thanks again,
Ken

RD

dwmzmm
08-25-2007, 10:37 AM
Rocket Doctor,

Welcome to this forum! After the Estes forum had shut down, I knew you would show up either here or The Rocket Forum sooner or later. We're glad to have you aboard and looking forward to sharing many insights and ideas (as well as remembering the great
pasttime of our hobby) once again.

BTW, assuming you don't win the lottery and can't buy Estes, any chance you could wind
up with one (or more) of the current excellent modroc vendors around today?!

sandman
08-25-2007, 11:24 AM
Welcome, Ken!

I think you wll be happier here than TRF. It's a bit friendlier.

The mods have to do a lot less policing here.

Ltvscout
08-25-2007, 11:47 AM
Welcome, Kevin!
Heh, RD's name is Ken. ;)

sandman
08-25-2007, 11:56 AM
Heh, RD's name is Ken. ;)

My bad...welcome, Ken.

Ltvscout
08-25-2007, 12:03 PM
I would also work on bringing back the original metal fin kwik fin alignment guide, I may still do that anyway.

No more plastic in the fin guide !!!!!
Doc,

I have two or three of these fin alignment tools. Far superior to the plastic version Estes sold at the end.

I don't believe these were made by Estes though. Estes may have sold them, but I'm almost positive they were made by a third party.

I'm assuming you own one of these, but if not and you need to borrow one for measurements or something just let me know.

Rocket Doctor
08-25-2007, 12:11 PM
I'm inviting you all to come to NARAM next year in Virginia to meet the Rocket Doctor.

I, plan on bringing some of my creations !!!

I still have about 15 sitting back at Estes in storage though.

I usually built two of each, one for me and one for Estes, I was lucky enough to get back my four that were supposed to make it into kits for this year.

Around September 15th on nar.org, there should be information regarding NARAM 50.

I have my fingers and toes crossed about the lottery, the mega million is over $260 million and the powerball is over $350 million, I can only wish........

Anyone have a spare million to help the cause???

Anyone out there who would like to produce my designs, I'm open to suggestions, contact me.

Right now I'm heading to do an interview regarding Reaction Motors, Inc, the first liquid fuel rocket engine manufacturer in America, 1941 - 1972.

Have a great day everyone.....

RD

Rocket Doctor
08-25-2007, 12:29 PM
Scott

I have an original Fin Kwik, I also have the patent prints for it as well.
You are correct, the original metal Fin Kwik .

Here is the patent number for the metal fin alignment guide, 3,805,355 dated April 23,1974

The patent holder is/was Mitchell Gornik, 460 Pioneer Drive, Addison, Il 60101
patent filed December 15, 1972
Appl number 315,515


The current problem with this design is that it cannot be adjusted to accomidate a BT-80 tube.

Also, the mannor inwhich you have to set the fin support isn't good, there are circular indentation in the base plate, which, you have to guess that the tube is properly set to.

I would expand the fin guide by at least a half an inch, make inserts for every size body tube that would allow the user to properly set the fin guide in the proper position.

For those who might have the original, you know what I mean, unless you get is right the first time, your fins will be off, the only other way to do it, is to use a previous model, whith the correct fin position to set the fin guides, too time consuming.

The Estes plastic version was not accurate, and, the tabs inwhich the fing guide slid through usually broke off.

Metal is the way to go, but, I don't know how much it would cost to reproduce it, and, you would have to buy it, or I should say produce it in quantities.

I know from the Estes Forum there was much interest in it, but, I don't know if the number would be there to support such a project and keep the cost down to a reasonable amount.

I think that I am going to look into this further to see what I can come up with.

Rocket Doctor
08-25-2007, 12:40 PM
The Rocket Doctor will be off this Forum for awhile, making house calls, sort of, I have to do an interview and will return later.

scigs30
08-25-2007, 07:35 PM
RD, When Estes does a prototype, do they use the same parts that are in the kit? IE plastic nose, Estes Bt, silkscreen decals? The reason I ask is because I know that everything is now produced in China so I was wondering what Estes does? If they make decals for the prototypes, do they silk screen or do they have a special printer?

Rocket Doctor
08-25-2007, 10:02 PM
Be advised that the Rocket Doctor needed a real doctor after I broke my left elbow.

So, it's kind of hard trying to type with one hand, especially capital letters. Myfingers can only stretch so far trying to hold down the shift key whiile trying to type with one hand.

Now it's at least three weeks in a sling, I should have said fractured the tip of my left elbow, very, very painful.

So, I will try to do my best to reply back.

dwmzmm
08-25-2007, 10:04 PM
Broke your left elbow?! Doing what? Hope it wasn't trying to recover a model rocket stuck
in some rocket eating tree.

You have our well wishes; get some rest and please, please be careful....

Rocket Doctor
08-25-2007, 10:20 PM
No. it wasn't a rocket eating tree, if that was the case, I think I would have gotten a chain saw and cut it down, no tree is going to swallow one of mine without a fight !!!

No. I had just interviewed a gentleman for my Reaction Motors article, he suggested that I go to thw local library for more info, while comind down two flights of stairs, the last step decided to do me in, I slipped and fell on mt left elbow, and I did see stars for awhile, maybe it was my shooting stars, what pain.

I went to the local hospital, had xrays, ands the tech told me that it was fractured.

About a half hour later, the doctor came in to make it official.

Now I have a soft cast and a sling on.

Thanks for your kind words.

Now it's three weeks in a sling.

Gus
08-26-2007, 02:44 AM
Rocket Doctor,

Welcome to YORF. Sorry to hear about your elbow.

A reasonably priced metal fin jig would be most welcome.

BMI Cad (http://www.bmibay.net/finjig.html) produces an aluminum jig (in 1st photo below) similar in function to the old Estes jig, but I've read some complaints about the quality of the machining, and the price is higher than most would consider paying.

The highest quality fin jig produced (seen in 2nd photo), built by Art Rose, is available from High Tech Rocketry (http://www.hightechrocketry.com/FinJig.html). Intended for competetion rocketeers, its $450 price is beyond the reach of most, although a number of reviewers say it is well worth the price. It seems doubtful, though, that most sport rockets would need that level of precision.

Rocket Doctor
08-26-2007, 07:41 AM
Gus

Thanks for the info.

I am going to find a metal stampings company that can produce a metal (like the original fin kwik - 1974).

It would be steel, that would be plated to accomidate up to bt-80 body tubes.

At thus point, I have no idea on the cost,

I wish that I could find the original manufacturer, but, after all of these years, they may not be in business.

I would want a quality item at a resonable price. Not a piece of garbage as was the case with the plastic one.

Rocket Doctor
08-26-2007, 07:42 AM
andman

It's ironic, I do have a brother named Kevin.....

dwmzmm
08-26-2007, 07:47 AM
Rocket Doctor, hope your elbow isn't hurting too much this morning....

Rocket Doctor
08-26-2007, 08:18 AM
It was a little hard trying to sleep with my arm on a pillow and unable to move that much.

The pain is still there, but, not as intense when it first happened.

Thank goodness I'm right handed.

Kind of difficult to do basic tasks.

Thanks for asking.

Ltvscout
08-26-2007, 09:30 AM
The highest quality fin jig produced (seen in 2nd photo), built by Art Rose, is available from High Tech Rocketry (http://www.hightechrocketry.com/FinJig.html). Intended for competetion rocketeers, its $450 price is beyond the reach of most, although a number of reviewers say it is well worth the price. It seems doubtful, though, that most sport rockets would need that level of precision.
Yes, Art does make a fantastic jig. You get what you pay for I guess. Too expensive for me though for general sport flying.

Ltvscout
08-26-2007, 09:31 AM
I wish that I could find the original manufacturer, but, after all of these years, they may not be in business.
Doesn't your Fin Kwik patent list a persons name and city/state where the patent was filed? If so, use Google to try to track down that person.

Ltvscout
08-26-2007, 09:32 AM
I would want a quality item at a resonable price. Not a piece of garbage as was the case with the plastic one.
You'd never guess that the plastic version is junk judging by the exhorbitant prices they bring on eBay!

DeanHFox
08-26-2007, 09:57 AM
The plastic ones from Estes might not live up to our BAR standards, as it were, but my sons use theirs religiously, and I have to admit, their finished rockets look a heckuva lot better than mine did at that age. :)

(although I, too, would like to get a decent metal jig at a reasonable price for my use...and if I'm gonna spend the kind of $$$ the folks on greedBay want for their plastic jigs, I'd prefer it be for a metal one that will last) :D

Rocket Doctor
08-26-2007, 10:06 AM
I guess something, even a piece of junk is better than nothing at all.

I did a search of the original patent holder using many methods, nothing came up.Were talking 34 years ago. Alot could have happened over all of those years.

I am going to contact local metal stamping companies to explore the possibility of having an updated metal (fin kwik0 produced.

FYI,when I was on the Estes Forum, I had passed along all of the requests, and sent emails to thr powers to be at Estes trying to get them to produce the metal one.

One response was, we could make a better plastic one, I told them,the cosumers wanted the metal one, not a crappy plastic one.

When I was in Penrose the first week in April, I brought it up to the former marketing manager, he told me that Estes was not going to waste it's mpney on tooling that woild probably cost $5,000, and this request was on the back burner.

You have no idea of the resistance that I experienced by bringing up issues to managemeny.I guess this is part of the reason the Forum shut down and my services were no longer needed.

FYI, the former marketing manager didn't know what an engine block was used for, he thought that is was used to prevent the engine mount tube from colapsing when the slit for the engine hook was being made,NOTE; And I have the email to back up this statement 111

Rocket Doctor
08-26-2007, 10:22 AM
The problem with the plastic version was the tabs broke off or they were too tight for the fin supports to move easily.

Estes could have reproduced the metal version, but, plastic was cheaper and the profit margin was higher.

As far as ebay goes, it's up to the buyer as to how much the final price will be, it's supply and demand.

Estes has brought out several vintage kits, but, they will never be as the originals.

I am curious to see what kind of a hatchet job they did on my rewrite on the instructions for thr Red Max and Interceptors.

I have written many instruction, and reviewed many more, and. in alot of cases, mr original outlines were changed.

I have found thid out after kits have gone into production and then I eventually got to view the instructions with mistakes.

If you wany to see one of my best instructions, check out the two stage Renegade. The problem with this kit is the booster section is too heavy, and when I put together one of the first prototypes, the fins on rhe booster were 1/8 inch too large and went over onto the upper stage, they did change this before production though.

cas2047
08-26-2007, 10:30 AM
FYI,when I was on the Estes Forum, I had passed along all of the requests, and sent emails to thr powers to be at Estes trying to get them to produce the metal one.

One response was, we could make a better plastic one, I told them,the cosumers wanted the metal one, not a crappy plastic one.

When I was in Penrose the first week in April, I brought it up to the former marketing manager, he told me that Estes was not going to waste it's mpney on tooling that woild probably cost $5,000, and this request was on the back burner.

You have no idea of the resistance that I experienced by bringing up issues to managemeny.I guess this is part of the reason the Forum shut down and my services were no longer needed.

FYI, the former marketing manager didn't know what an engine block was used for, he thought that is was used to prevent the engine mount tube from colapsing when the slit for the engine hook was being made,NOTE; And I have the email to back up this statement 111

This really explains a lot, at least to me, RD as to how Estes has gotten to where it is today. I still hope though that the exposure Estes had, for a short time ,to the model rocket braintrust will have served to start turning that ship. Maybe a seed was planted during your time there that, although not immediately, will grow over time.

I just can't understand how Estes thinks it will be able to continue to be a viable company down the road if they don't listen to and adapt to the wants and needs of it's customers.

Anyway thanks again for all you did there and all you continue to do here and elsewhere.

lurker01
08-27-2007, 11:18 AM
I'm inviting you all to come to NARAM next year in Virginia to meet the Rocket Doctor.

I, plan on bringing some of my creations !!!

I still have about 15 sitting back at Estes in storage though.

I usually built two of each, one for me and one for Estes, I was lucky enough to get back my four that were supposed to make it into kits for this year.

Around September 15th on nar.org, there should be information regarding NARAM 50.

I have my fingers and toes crossed about the lottery, the mega million is over $260 million and the powerball is over $350 million, I can only wish........

Anyone have a spare million to help the cause???

Anyone out there who would like to produce my designs, I'm open to suggestions, contact me.

Right now I'm heading to do an interview regarding Reaction Motors, Inc, the first liquid fuel rocket engine manufacturer in America, 1941 - 1972.

Have a great day everyone.....

RD

Hello Ken,

Well the PowerBall jackpot went to someone in Indiana... better luck next time.

Hey I have some questions if you don't mind?

1)Did anyone keep a record of the number of kits that were produced over the lifetime of the product? e.g., how many Mars Landers were made over their production run?

2)Is Estes management really ' asleep at the wheel'? Meaning, are their heads really buried in the sand when it comes to the hobbyist?

3)I heard that in the Estes lobby, under glass display cases there are Saturn V models that are signed by Apollo Astronaut crews. Is this true?

4)Estes management doesn't care about old collectibles from the first years of Estes industries... why?

5)Is Barry Tunic really a model rocketeer at heart?

6)Estes Storage!? Any chance any old and rare items are in that stockpile?

7)Does Estes frown on the selling of their clones?

Thanks in advance,

Robert O.

Rocket Doctor
08-27-2007, 11:59 AM
There is still the mega million lottery going off tomorrow night, estimated at $250 million.

Most of your questions I am unable to respond to. Most of which is non public information.

There are two glass display cases coming in the frobt door, many Estes classics on display. I do believe there is a Saturn V, but, I am not sure that it has been signed.

The Forum was set up for feedback, and unfortunately, it's been shut down.

You will have to come to your own conclusions at this point in time. I do have my own thoughts, but. I would rather keep them that way for now.

U hope that you continue to have a great flying season, and, conyinue to explore new products from Estes as well as other companies.

ghrocketman
08-27-2007, 12:04 PM
Welcome to the forum Ken !
I think you will find us to be a friendly bunch of BARs here. :D
Most likely you will find this forum to be devoid of OVER-moderation, which TRF is notorious for :mad: (and why I never have and never WILL join TRF).

Rocket Doctor
08-27-2007, 12:20 PM
Thank you for your kind words...

If you are planning on going to NARAM 50 in Virginia, I am planning on being there. I will be bringing along some of my prototypes to fly.

It should be a great reunion for all of us.

From what I understand, around September 15th, there should be information on the NAR web site, www.nar.org

PaulK
08-27-2007, 12:49 PM
Welcome to YORF doc, looking forward to your LAUNCH article. How far back did your association with Estes go?

Rocket Doctor
08-27-2007, 03:48 PM
Associated in one way or another, unofficialy and officialty about 37 years.

The LAUNCH (journal) article will be published in the November/December issue. Find out how I got into the hobby.

ddanhra69
08-27-2007, 11:18 PM
I launched my Mustang today. It did really well. Light wind took it right to someone's driveway and landed on the concrete, breaking a fin. On the Mustang the fin locks in 2 places. Into the molded fin locks and the outer body tube. Well, in between it kindof narrows down, before fattening back up going into the finlocks. It broke in that very skinny area. What are my options?

Leo
08-28-2007, 04:10 AM
Ken,

nice to see you here in this forum again.

I look very much forward to reading your posts :)

Gruesse from a German rocketeer.

Rocket Doctor
08-28-2007, 08:40 AM
Hello Leo

Yes, the doctor is back.....
Haven't gotten around to maesuring my birdie yet, sorry.

Possibly. Semroc could laser cut those rings for you.

Das ist sehr gut.........

RD

Leo
08-28-2007, 10:29 AM
...

Possibly. Semroc could laser cut those rings for you.

Das ist sehr gut.........


Sorry Ken. It must be an Estes item.

Look at this way; It would be like using a Mercedes hood on a BMW car.

For me unthinkable :)

Shreadvector
08-28-2007, 11:34 AM
I launched my Mustang today. It did really well. Light wind took it right to someone's driveway and landed on the concrete, breaking a fin. On the Mustang the fin locks in 2 places. Into the molded fin locks and the outer body tube. Well, in between it kindof narrows down, before fattening back up going into the finlocks. It broke in that very skinny area. What are my options?

Repair with 30 inute epoxy. Tape/clamp/or toherwise hold in place until epoxy cures.

You can then add reinforcements to the fin/tube fillet area with a triangular piece of balsa wood or use a small amount of fiberglass cloth and epoxy.

Then launch away from houses and roadways.

ddanhra69
08-28-2007, 11:41 AM
Thanks, that's funny about houses and roadways. Everything is turning into concrete jungles. However, I do have a great place, but some of my family is getting to where if they have to go 2 miles to a launch site it's too far. :rolleyes:

Rocket Doctor
08-28-2007, 12:22 PM
LeoI will send to you some rings that you might be able to use on your birdie. Give me a private message wiyh mailinf instructions.

Anyone out there have the adapter rings used on the Estes Birdie that Leo coild have?

Many Thanks

ghrocketman
08-28-2007, 12:27 PM
Is there some way you can tell by looking at a ring that it is a non Estes item ?
If dimensions, material, construction method, and color are the same, then I assert they are the SAME.
It is NOT like using a Mercedes hood on a BMW as they would not fit each other and would not look the same.
A more proper analogy would be with generic pharmaceuticals.
10mg of Prednisone IS 10mg of Prednisone.

Rocket Doctor
08-28-2007, 01:25 PM
On certain parts it would be hard to tell. But, also remember going bac to the 60's and 70's there weren't that many companies around. Basically Estes and Centuri.

Damon purchased Estes in 1969 and then not much longer after, Damon purchased Centuri.

Then, Centuri became part of Estes, check out some of the "transistional"kits, with th Centuri name with a Penrose address.

Also, some of the body tubes had slight dimentional differences, such as a Estes BT-55 and the current BT-56, which was originally a Centuri size. Now used on many RTF's.

Probable, because you couldn't interchange parts between both companies.

Body tubes are generally made by Euclid Spiral Paper Tube Company in Ohio.

I guess you could go by dimensions and the color of the parts. I can only assume that paper parts would start to yellow over time.

Engine hooks were just bent on the ends, but, the newer ones have the
"Estes curl".

It's also hard to tell original balsa parts from the clones, except, Semroc uses a better grade of balsa. I guess when you are mass producing kits, you have to take into consideration quanity. Manufactures don't go according to single kits, rather thousands and if you have many kits to offer, production schedules come into play.

I hope that this has answered your questions.

scigs30
08-28-2007, 03:31 PM
RD, I remember on the Estes forums that there was talk about Estes putting out a video on building and finishing model rockets. Do you know if this is ever going to happen? Brings me to my next question. When Estes builds rockets for the photo shoot. What do they use to build the rocket? ie, do they fill the spirals? What do they use on the balsa to make so smooth? Thanks David....

Shreadvector
08-28-2007, 03:39 PM
RD, I remember on the Estes forums that there was talk about Estes putting out a video on building and finishing model rockets. Do you know if this is ever going to happen? Brings me to my next question. When Estes builds rockets for the photo shoot. What do they use to build the rocket? ie, do they fill the spirals? What do they use on the balsa to make so smooth? Thanks David....

The NAR produced an educational video with the help of the AIA as part of TARC. It is a DVD and shows how the rockets work and how to build a pretty good sized MPR with payload section. Lots of techniques shown.

TARC teams should get one and all of us with a copy are encouraged to duplicate it (just like the NAR CD-ROM with the free design and launch simulation software) for local folks. Our club has mae about 200 copies of the CD-ROM (ver 1.0 and 2.0) and 100 copies of the DVD.

http://www.aia-aerospace.org/aianews/features/team_america/index.cfm


The CD-ROM exists in online web-based form here:
http://2020vertical.com/nar_edu_cd_dev/

Rocket Doctor
08-28-2007, 04:25 PM
scigs30

On the Estes Forum, someone suggested that Estes put out a video, Estes did not say that they would produce one.

Rocket Doctor
08-28-2007, 04:27 PM
scigs30

The expert on photo shoot models would be rougepink, he does that all the time and is very good at it.

Rocket Doctor
08-29-2007, 05:10 PM
Hello everyone.

If I don't get back to your messages, chances are I missed them.
Also, with my fractured left elbow, it's kind of hard to type, I have lots of pain.

I was told that I not only fractured my elbow, bit jammed my arm as well. And we all know how it feels when we hit our "funny" bone,and.it's not that funny believe me.

ARTU
08-30-2007, 09:22 AM
Hi Ken,

in today's world of Tort, I'm suprised you don't own the library now :D

Rocket Doctor
08-30-2007, 10:04 AM
They weren't that concerned !!!!!

DWolman
08-30-2007, 10:22 PM
I pulled something off the early rec.models.rockets group (or some other archive) back in 1995, about the secrets of Estes modeling, written by Estes designer Mike Dorffler (been there like forever).

I have attached it to the message for download - I hope that it may be helpful. I don't know if any of the techniques are still used at Estes, but I know that I use some of them with much success -

- using the "two lines down the tube" method for fins
- using basswood for all fins instead of balsa
- etc

Hope it helps -

Dan

Ltvscout
08-30-2007, 10:32 PM
I pulled something off the early rec.models.rockets group (or some other archive) back in 1995, about the secrets of Estes modeling, written by Estes designer Mike Dorffler (been there like forever).

I have attached it to the message for download - I hope that it may be helpful. I don't know if any of the techniques are still used at Estes, but I know that I use some of them with much success -

- using the "two lines down the tube" method for fins
- using basswood for all fins instead of balsa
- etc

Hope it helps -
That's great! Thank you, Dan.

Rocket Doctor
08-30-2007, 10:59 PM
Interesting...

rougepink would know the current methods used to finish off rockets.

Mike Dorffler is still at Estes as part of R & D and also doing electronics as well.

stefanj
08-31-2007, 12:02 AM
Thanks for posting Dorffler's article.

My question: Is it for building display models, or flying rockets? I suspect it would result in slightly heavy models. Not high performance, but ooooh, sweet.

Gus
08-31-2007, 04:07 AM
Dan,

Thanks for posting that.

I'd love to hear how RoguePink does it these days.

Rocket Doctor
08-31-2007, 07:13 AM
Why don't you send rougepink a personal email and ask him about his finishing techniques.

I know that Estes dislap models are differen't from those that are flown.

In most casas, there are no launch lugs used, no recovery devices, and like mentioned previously, basswood used in place of balsa, and in other cases, heavier walled body tubes.

The display models must be built to survive numerous shippigs, must stand up to conyinued handling (at shows) and must look "perfect".

Alot of work, but, rougepink is the guy who does this great work. There has been others before rougepink came to Estes, with everyone using their own talent in the building and finishing process.

At the first East Coast Hobby Show going back at least 12 years ago, I had built and finished off all the display models, but, I built them to convential standards though.

marslndr
08-31-2007, 08:20 AM
I'm a little late, but I'm glad the Dr. is back posting!

Sorry about your elbow.

I thought Rougepink had left Estes? I have not seen him on any forums in a while.

Mark

Rocket Doctor
08-31-2007, 08:37 AM
Mark

No, rougwpink is alive and well at Estes, possibly, he is on vacation or very busy with new projects.

Estes is alittle short handed right now.

Thanks for your kind words.

If you are going to NARAM 50 in Virginia next year, I plan on being there, it should be a great NARAM.

tbzep
08-31-2007, 08:48 AM
Thanks for posting Dorffler's article.

My question: Is it for building display models, or flying rockets? I suspect it would result in slightly heavy models. Not high performance, but ooooh, sweet.

I used to try to build light, but finally realized that it's no big deal since I'm not competing. The only time I worry about weight is with kits like the Outlander that's marginal at best with a C6-3 so we mod with a 24mm mount and still don't worry about weight :) .

I still use balsa instead of basswood, but I don't mind a little more weight from filler and paint.

Shreadvector
08-31-2007, 08:54 AM
Mark

No, rougwpink is alive and well at Estes, possibly, he is on vacation or very busy with new projects.

Estes is alittle short handed right now.

Thanks for your kind words.

If you are going to NARAM 50 in Virginia next year, I plan on being there, it should be a great NARAM.

Hmmm. What about this?
http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=36149&highlight=leaving+estes

Ltvscout
08-31-2007, 09:00 AM
Hmmm. What about this?
http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=36149&highlight=leaving+estes
RD has since reported that RP decided to stay at Estes, but in a new position.

Shreadvector
08-31-2007, 09:46 AM
RD has since reported that RP decided to stay at Estes, but in a new position.

OK, then maybe someone needs to go on that old thread and bump/update it? :D :D ;)

scigs30
08-31-2007, 11:46 AM
I pulled something off the early rec.models.rockets group (or some other archive) back in 1995, about the secrets of Estes modeling, written by Estes designer Mike Dorffler (been there like forever).

I have attached it to the message for download - I hope that it may be helpful. I don't know if any of the techniques are still used at Estes, but I know that I use some of them with much success -

- using the "two lines down the tube" method for fins
- using basswood for all fins instead of balsa
- etc

Hope it helps -

Dan

Basswood? That seems like it would be a pain to cut with a X Acto 11. I noticed they paint the wood and sand before cutting. I wonder if this would work with balsa? Also if they use basswood on there models, why not use laser cut basswood in the kits? Oh well. For some reason I think I can seal and sand my balsa fins faster vs trying to cut basswood. 4 coats of balsa sealer and the fins come out smooth.

DWolman
08-31-2007, 11:53 AM
Basswood is actually simple to cut with an xacto knife - it's a little bit harder than balsa, but more importantly, the grain is much smaller on it -

I have finished some models with just 2-3 coats of primer and sanding smooth, without filling in the basswood, and ended up with glass-smooth fins - but even 1-2 coats of filler (or whatever method you use) and you'll have nice fins pretty quickly -

I would suggest giving it a shot - you can get basswood at most local hobby shops, Michaels, etc...

scigs30
08-31-2007, 11:55 AM
How much more weight does the basswood add?

scigs30
08-31-2007, 12:20 PM
Sorry to beat the subject into the ground, but it sounds like the above method is used for the display rockets. I would think that when a rocket is designed, Estes has to build it per the plans to see if it flies ok, does that sound right? If so I am guessing Estes does not replace the balsa and probably builds the rocket to resemble to plans....I am just guessing. I wish Estes had a book on the history of rocketry.

stefanj
08-31-2007, 12:55 PM
It IS possible to make and finish near-catalog-quality models that will fly. A little heavy, because of all the extra filler and primer, but at the very least nice and slick.

I have a now-well-used Jaguar (Centuri clone, not the Semroc version) that looks like it was cast in a mold. I'm trying for the same look on a SLS Skyhook, but the roll bars are going to be a challenge. I plan on painting them on and compounding them.

ARTU
08-31-2007, 04:10 PM
Basswood? ...<snip>... 4 coats of balsa sealer and the fins come out smooth.


:eek: Four Coats ??

That would take about a case of beer ;)

Initiator001
08-31-2007, 04:15 PM
Sorry to beat the subject into the ground, but it sounds like the above method is used for the display rockets. I would think that when a rocket is designed, Estes has to build it per the plans to see if it flies ok, does that sound right? If so I am guessing Estes does not replace the balsa and probably builds the rocket to resemble to plans....I am just guessing. I wish Estes had a book on the history of rocketry.

I can't speak to what the Estes staff does but I have built display/flight models for two different model rocket companies (Enertek & AeroTech).

I always had to juggle making display models and testing flight models when it came to having the actual production parts. In many instances, I had to have display/flight models ready without the benefit of the actual production parts such as using in-house turned balsa nose cones instead of the actual plastic ones (Anyone else have Lee Piester custom turn nose cones for you? :D ).

Another example was my prototype AeroTech Initiator. We didn't have the plastic fins so I built flight prototypes out of plywood (I did have the plastic nose cones).

I know that on small (traditional) model rocket prototype display models, often sheet styrene was used to make the fins. The required no filling or sanding and looked good, too.

Using off-the-shelf parts always made the creation of new model prototypes easier. Often the only components needed would be new packaging, instructions and decals. ;)

Bob

Rocket Doctor
08-31-2007, 05:13 PM
The HERITAGE Auction Galleries Air and Space Auction is being held on September 20,2007 in Dallas Texas

Inquire about an auction catalog (#669) by calling 866-835-3243

Email

Promo@HA.com (Mention Reference Code CAT7425

I called on Thurs 8/30 and received a copy today

It's loaded with all types of Air & Space items, with a special section of Buzz Aldrin items.

Even items from his school days in Montclair NJ

Check It Out

ARTU
08-31-2007, 05:19 PM
Done :cool:

Rocket Doctor
08-31-2007, 08:36 PM
I tip my hat to Carl, Cheryl and Bruce at Semroc.

At least they offer what the general population of BAR's want, vintage kits, with balsa, consisting of quality and great customer service.

"It's The Service After The Sale That Counts"


MADE IN THE USA !!!!!

scigs30
08-31-2007, 09:03 PM
I agree made in the USA. I hope we can continue to buy after market decals. I don't know if most of you are aware, but Alps no longer makes printers. Papa Tango and Excelsior both use Alps printers. I currently have two Alps, but from what I understand they break real easy and there is no one that can repair them. RD, that is why I was interested in how Estes make there prototype decals. I am guessing they have a printer just because it is too labor intensive to make silk screen decals for prototypes. I hope someone comes out with a new printer soon that can print metallic and white.

Rocket Doctor
08-31-2007, 09:43 PM
Artwork done in Penrose, prototypes done in China, that is why it takes so long to get a product into production.

Wht don't you check with printer manufactures such as HP or LEXMARK. Or do a search online for decal manufactures.

scigs30
08-31-2007, 09:52 PM
China, Can I claim lead poisoning? I was looking at Guillows website the other day and notice they are proud that there model airplanes are made in the USA. How much money would we need to win to buy Estes?

Rocket Doctor
08-31-2007, 10:05 PM
I would guess $25 million, give or take a million.

The mega millions went off tonight (18 states) over 4300 MILLION, AFTER TAXES ABOUT 150 TO 180 MILLION, ENOUGH TO PURCHASW eSTES WITH ALITTLE POCKET CHANGE......

Royatl
08-31-2007, 10:57 PM
Artwork done in Penrose, prototypes done in China, that is why it takes so long to get a product into production.




As I recall, Estes once had a completely in-house print shop and decal production operation. When did Barry get rid of that?

ManofSteele
09-01-2007, 12:15 AM
The decal shop was phased out in the 95-96 timeframe. At the time, the number of decals required outstripped the shops ability to make them all.

Matt

Rocket Doctor
09-01-2007, 06:36 AM
Just like the balsa dept, so went the prinying dept, from what I gather, the current marketing dept was where the print shop was housed.

And, like I mentioned previously, it takes forever to get samples back from China. I have had one or two sample decals made for my prototypes by rougepink, but, quantity amounts are done off site.

At one time, their inhouse printer wasn't working holding everything up.

foose4string
09-01-2007, 08:25 AM
RD, if kits were brought back due to their popularity and requests from the forum, how does that explain the re-issue of the the Nova Payloader and Super Neon? Any story behind those? I don't recall those kits ever getting mentioned for on the Estes forum. I'm sure there are people that will buy those kits, but surely there are other discontinued kits that are were WAY more popular than those.

Rocket Doctor
09-01-2007, 09:43 AM
Nova Payloader was easy to bring back since it wasn't discontinued that long ago, and, they wanted a payload kit for educational purposes.

In the case of the Siper Neon, it was a "management" favorite. I questined it also, Quest has their version and so does Custom, go figure.

I had my own personal list of ten potential bringbacks, and onlt about half of my list was on their bringback list.

At least the Der Red Max and the Interceptors are now back. And. if plans don't change, there will be several more vintage kits returning, only time will tell.

By the way, there were four winners in the mega millions lottery drawing (8/31) none of my tickets though, and the amount was $330 million, now divided four ways, and, don't forget the TAXES !!!!!

Rocket Doctor
09-01-2007, 09:45 AM
I would also like to mention that lists of potential new kits and bringbacks were made long ago, way before the Forum started.......

foose4string
09-01-2007, 12:21 PM
I saw the logic with the Payloader. I think payloaders can be fun and have potential as an educational tool, and I that's something the current lineup needed. The Super Neon, I'm still scratching my head over. But I have to admit, the packaging does catch the eye and is something out of the ordinary. Not something I plan on buying though, unless it's for kit bashing purposes...something I rarely do. I've got enough scratch parts to build from. If I buy a kit it's 'cause I like the kit, not because I want to turn into something else. I've got a huge hankerin' for the Mercury Atlas. I hope that's one of the bring backs. The ebay prices for that kit are ridiculous. Same with the Hojos and Pershings.

moonzero2
09-01-2007, 01:05 PM
How much more weight does the basswood add?
I'm curious to the answer to this too as I have no experience using basswood. Sounds like I should maybe consider using it? :confused:
Can someone with basswood & balsa experience help with this?

Carl@Semroc
09-01-2007, 01:15 PM
I'm curious to the answer to this too as I have no experience using basswood. Sounds like I should maybe consider using it? :confused:
Can someone with basswood & balsa experience help with this?
Basswood is about 26 lbs/cubic ft as compared to about 7-10 for balsa. We use basswood for larger kits, but many smaller models would be unstable if basswood was used with the same thickness. Changing 3/32" balsa to 1/16" basswood helps some, but I would still use RockSim to check the difference in CG-CP.

The easiest way to cut basswood is with a laser! :D

Tau Zero
09-01-2007, 02:54 PM
How much more weight does the basswood add?I'm curious to the answer to this too as I have no experience using basswood. Sounds like I should maybe consider using it? :confused:
Can someone with basswood & balsa experience help with this?Basswood weighs approximately 3 times as the same amount of balsa. :eek:


So generally speaking, if you substitute basswood fins for balsa ones, you'll need to be adding some *serious* nose weight to compensate for it.

--Not to mention using motors with significantly shorter delay times. :rolleyes:


Sorry to beat the subject into the ground, but it sounds like the above method is used for the display rockets.That's how I read it.


I would think that when a rocket is designed, Estes has to build it per the plans to see if it flies ok, does that sound right? If so I am guessing Estes does not replace the balsa and probably builds the rocket to resemble to plans....I am just guessing.I think you hit the nail on the head, SCIGS.


Cheers,

Rocket Doctor
09-01-2007, 03:10 PM
The reference to basswood has been taken out of context I believe.

The discussion was about photo/display models that use other materials than what are provided in convential kits.

These materials are used for the overall look (photography) and ability to withstand the rigors of shippimg numerous times and being handled numerous times.

Display models are NOT built to be flown, as I have mentioned before, unless things have changes, usually no launch lugs and no recovery systems are included.

Rougepink would be the gut to clarify current show model building techniques.

At a show. it'd hard to keep track of the models on display.

And I'm not suggesting that Estes uses now or is going to use basswood in any of theit kits.

FYI, I myself in building my own rockets haveused a very light plywood.

At one time, FSI sold plywood fins.

surdumil
09-02-2007, 12:39 AM
RD, I recall a number of innovations, used by Centuri, that simply disappeared when Centuri was bought by Damon/Estes. I fondly remember things like the silvery adhesive shock cord mount, ejection baffles, injection-molded body wraps, metalic mylar detail tape, mylar motor blocks, pass-port staging couplers, and the use of fibre-board for constructing complex, detailed shapes and fins (especially in the Superkits).

Had you ever gotten a feel for why Estes never adopted any of these ideas? I've always been puzzled by this and wondered if you might be able to offer some insight.

Dwayne Surdu-Miller

Rocket Doctor
09-02-2007, 06:06 AM
I can only speculate, probably due to the fact that Estes did things differently and choose to continue using their own methods.

Many of the items you mentioned were great items. Like the Centuri Saturn V, I built two of those, I didn't particulary like the Estes Saturn V, the Centuri had more detail.

One thing that Estes has incorporated now is the BT-56 body tubes, which were used by Centuri, the dimensions are slightly different from the Estes BT-55.

The BT-56 are used mainly in the RTF's.

Maybe someone out there would have a definative answer, also, it might have been a sipplier problem,and, possibly Estes thought it was overkill or repetative parts.

Some Estes designs incorporate Centuri methods, but, on the otherhand, Estes had their designers as well as Centuri having their own designers.

Compare the early catalogs, there is a difference, supporting my theory of the designers own preference.

Any other thoughts out there?
Roy, what is your take on this?

dwmzmm
09-02-2007, 08:28 AM
I can only speculate, probably due to the fact that Estes did things differently and choose to continue using their own methods.

Many of the items you mentioned were great items. Like the Centuri Saturn V, I built two of those, I didn't particulary like the Estes Saturn V, the Centuri had more detail.

One thing that Estes has incorporated now is the BT-56 body tubes, which were used by Centuri, the dimensions are slightly different from the Estes BT-55.

The BT-56 are used mainly in the RTF's.

Maybe someone out there would have a definative answer, also, it might have been a sipplier problem,and, possibly Estes thought it was overkill or repetative parts.

Some Estes designs incorporate Centuri methods, but, on the otherhand, Estes had their designers as well as Centuri having their own designers.

Compare the early catalogs, there is a difference, supporting my theory of the designers own preference.

Any other thoughts out there?
Roy, what is your take on this?

Ah, the Centuri Saturn - V!! I just flew mine (first flight, BTW) this past August 4th here in
Katy, TX (near Houston). I'm also doing a build of my last K-36 Saturn - V (Estes) that's
documented elsewhere in this forum in the Projects section....

The other two models in the first pic is the Centuri 1/35 scale Mercury Redstone and
PDRocketry 1/54 scale Gemini Titan - 3 (clone of Estes kit).

Royatl
09-02-2007, 11:21 AM
I can only speculate, probably due to the fact that Estes did things differently and choose to continue using their own methods.

Many of the items you mentioned were great items. Like the Centuri Saturn V, I built two of those, I didn't particulary like the Estes Saturn V, the Centuri had more detail.

One thing that Estes has incorporated now is the BT-56 body tubes, which were used by Centuri, the dimensions are slightly different from the Estes BT-55.

The BT-56 are used mainly in the RTF's.

Maybe someone out there would have a definative answer, also, it might have been a sipplier problem,and, possibly Estes thought it was overkill or repetative parts.

Some Estes designs incorporate Centuri methods, but, on the otherhand, Estes had their designers as well as Centuri having their own designers.

Compare the early catalogs, there is a difference, supporting my theory of the designers own preference.

Any other thoughts out there?
Roy, what is your take on this?


Well, the shock cord mount could simply be a cost-benefit decision. I liked them too, and I still use the basic method (illustrated in Stine) used by MPC of a single piece of cardboard punched three times and the shock cord threaded through it and glued in. The Estes tri-fold though is cheap and effective, even if some people are ham handed and make them thicker than they need be.

Ejection baffles add extra weight and complexity to the build. I.e. another potential customer service problem when it gets screwed up?

Any kind of detail is an extra cost center, and is probably frowned upon unless absolutely necessary, and then it is probably encouraged to go to existing parts, like the Atlas and Titan III plastic parts used in the North Coast Interceptor G. Or the Terrier fins and body used in a couple of later kits. But then, Centuri did this as well with certain details being found on later kits.

I don't remember mylar motor blocks, but mylar motor hook holders are still being used (both the Interceptor and DRM have them)

Fibre-board. Used in a number of Estes kits over the years. Don't remember if its the Wizard or Viking that uses it, maybe both. I've still got an Estes mini-Exocet with fibre fins.
Problem is it sometimes difficult to glue. That was the most common complaint from the Scouts and their dads we flew with this past weekend. They were glad they got Alphas.

surdumil
09-02-2007, 11:42 AM
Thanks most kindly Roy and DR. That addresses several questions that have been locked in my noggin for a fair while (just obsessive, I guess :) )

I hope the Estes folks might some day revisit the baffle idea. At club launches, shock cord burn-throughs and separations have been the number one problem by far. From what I've observed, they tend to kill enthusiasm pretty quickly, especially among fresh novices. I can certainly understand the points about reducing complexity and weight, though.

Personally, I usually build 'em baffled (add your own interpretation :) )

Initiator001
09-02-2007, 02:38 PM
One thing that Estes has incorporated now is the BT-56 body tubes, which were used by Centuri, the dimensions are slightly different from the Estes BT-55.

The BT-56 are used mainly in the RTF's.

Maybe someone out there would have a definative answer, also, it might have been a sipplier problem,and, possibly Estes thought it was overkill or repetative parts.



Centuri had gone to plastic parts before Estes did it.

When Centuri was 'folded' into Estes, there were many nose cone and fin can molds that were already made and paid for that could still be used in rocket kits. The most popular molds were for parts which used Centuri ST-13/Estes BT-56 tubing.

A great example of this is the Enerjet 1340 fin can which was also used on the Centuri Argus, Phoenix Bird and Mars Project (Non-flying display model). Estes used this fin can for the Maniac, Long Shot, Eliminator and Discovery (Starter Set, 1980s).

The ST-13 Enerjet 1340 nose cone is used on many current Estes models (Mainly RTF models).

It's much cheaper to make new paper body tubes than new plastic molds. ;)

Bob

Doug Sams
09-02-2007, 03:52 PM
I hope the Estes folks might some day revisit the baffle idea. At club launches, shock cord burn-throughs and separations have been the number one problem by far. )I can't disagree that it's a problem, but I prefer to attack it differently. My experience has been that the shock cords are too short and the ejection charges too strong. So rather than adding the weight and complexity of a baffle, I make the shock cords longer and stronger. Plus, the baffles aren't perfect; hot gasses can still get to the chute. And baffles can require cleaning out. Making them removable for that adds further mass and complexity.

Besides being too short, my last couple of Estes shock cord mounts using elastic didn't last more than 2 or 3 launches before the elastic was brittle and ready to break. To replace the cord, removing the Estes style shock cord mount is a PITA, and you incur the risk of grinding thru the body tube trying to get the old one out.

So, instead of baffles, if Estes is gonna make improvements, I'd prefer to see kevlar leaders (ala Quest). The elastic (or other material of choice) is attached to the kevlar just below the opening. the other end of the kevlar attaches to the motor mount, and should last the life of the rocket, or at least a lot more flights than the tri-fold mount :)

When the elastic gets tired, the kevlar can be threaded aft thru the motor tube where another piece of elastic can be attached.

I can't dismiss the tri-fold mount altogether. I know others have had good results with them, and I still have a few rockets with them that have more than just a few flights. But in all cases, the longer shock cord is a must.

I remember an outreach our club did with some Scouts one day using the little 13mm Estes Gnomes. We had about a 50% separation rate. It was pathetic. And I blame it entirely on Estes for having too short of shock cords and crappy knotted mounts thru the side of the airframe.

I don't want a get into an Estes bashing session; they don't deserve it. But they definitely had their heads in the sand regarding this kit and its durability.

Doug

Rocket Doctor
09-02-2007, 04:39 PM
Ah, the Centuri Saturn - V!! I just flew mine (first flight, BTW) this past August 4th here in
Katy, TX (near Houston). I'm also doing a build of my last K-36 Saturn - V (Estes) that's
documented elsewhere in this forum in the Projects section....

The other two models in the first pic is the Centuri 1/35 scale Mercury Redstone and
PDRocketry 1/54 scale Gemini Titan - 3 (clone of Estes kit).




These photos bring back fond memories. It was around 1969 or so when both Estes and Centuri introduced their respective Saturn V's at the Pittsburgh Spring Convention in Pittsburgh PA.

Remember Elaine Sadowski and Jay Apt were there.

Soon thereafter, when they became available, I purchased two Centuri Saturn V's, a real crowd pleaser at our local 4H Fair launches, the Wayne Skyhawks. Chuck Mund and his brother Eric Mund were members.

Many great launches from my V's.

I also built an original Estes Saturn 1 - B, a four engine cluster, many launches and all engines lit up everytime.

They were the gool old days of model rocketry.

scigs30
09-02-2007, 04:39 PM
I have never had any problems with the Estes Rubber trifold shock cord mounts other than the cords being too short. I wish Estes would sell longer rubber cords. I use there 24 inch 1/8 cord and my smaller rockets and the 36 inch 1/4 on my larger rocket. So far I have not had a single issue.

Rocket Doctor
09-02-2007, 04:47 PM
All of the above mentioned Centuri items would be a cost factor today, even the amount of pages contained in the instructions, even a 1/4 cent adds up quickly when you consider thousands of kits in a production run.

As Roy has explained, all good points, the mylar is an engine hook retaining ring, also made of a band of thin cardboard.

I doubt very much if you will ever see kevlar, Estes has changed their shock cords a couple of times, cost is the determining factor.

When the Estes Forum was up and running, I requested and was assured that the shock cord lengths would be increasedin all futuire kit releases, apparently, they haven't.

I also offered my opinion on the 1350 shock cord material and length, that was supposed to be changed as well ?????

I'm not bashing Estes,just making a point, I tried, let me tell you !!!!!

Rocket Doctor
09-02-2007, 04:57 PM
I have never had any problems with the Estes Rubber trifold shock cord mounts other than the cords being too short. I wish Estes would sell longer rubber cords. I use there 24 inch 1/8 cord and my smaller rockets and the 36 inch 1/4 on my larger rocket. So far I have not had a single issue.




Unfortunately, instead of having a "million" part numbers for all different length shock cords, they have narrowed it down to a couple, if they are long enough or not.

Length equals cost.

I asked Vern one time about shock cord length and he told me "It could never be too long as long as it fits inside the rocket".

I think that because it is called a shock cord, that it must spring back (causing the Estes dent) not true, as long as it keeps everything together, in my opinion, that is what it is supposed to do.

dwmzmm
09-02-2007, 04:58 PM
These photos bring back fond memories. It was around 1969 or so when both Estes and Centuri introduced their respective Saturn V's at the Pittsburgh Spring Convention in Pittsburgh PA.

Remember Elaine Sadowski and Jay Apt were there.

Soon thereafter, when they became available, I purchased two Centuri Saturn V's, a real crowd pleaser at our local 4H Fair launches, the Wayne Skyhawks. Chuck Mund and his brother Eric Mund were members.

Many great launches from my V's.

I also built an original Estes Saturn 1 - B, a four engine cluster, many launches and all engines lit up everytime.

They were the gool old days of model rocketry.

Thanks, Rocket Doctor! For your information, I also have the original Estes 1/70 Saturn 1-B
still "in-the-box" awaiting assembly. Maybe after I finish my K-36 Saturn - V, I'll make the
Saturn 1-B my "Christmas Holiday Project" near the end of this year....

Rocket Doctor
09-02-2007, 05:04 PM
Thanks, Rocket Doctor! For your information, I also have the original Estes 1/70 Saturn 1-B
still "in-the-box" awaiting assembly. Maybe after I finish my K-36 Saturn - V, I'll make the
Saturn 1-B my "Christmas Holiday Project" near the end of this year....





Dave

Why don't you build your Saturn 1-B and have it's maiden launch at NARAM 50 , then upon it's successful return, you could have Vern autograph it, what a great ending to a histiric event.

Royatl
09-02-2007, 10:26 PM
I think that because it is called a shock cord, that it must spring back (causing the Estes dent) not true, as long as it keeps everything together, in my opinion, that is what it is supposed to do.


By the time of the fourth edition of the Handbook, G. Harry recommended at least an 18" length of cotton twine as the shock cord, instead of rubber or elastic, as elasticity isn't needed. If I recall, MPC was the only company that would use this in its kits.

In HPR terms, you would use tubular nylon or tubular kevlar.

Rocket Doctor
09-03-2007, 06:08 AM
It only goes to show, the old ways Are the best ways.

Maybe a certain rocket company should invest in a few copies as a reference guide.....

mrhemi1971
09-03-2007, 08:32 AM
After reading that book, on some of my smaller models I replaced all the shock cords with twine. Now, I do the same thing, bit with a small kevlar thread.

Rocket Doctor
09-03-2007, 09:23 AM
How does the "Stine Twine" work out for you? any problems compared to elastic or rubber? What length do you use? 1 1/2 the body tube lenght minimum?

Rocket Doctor
09-03-2007, 09:39 AM
Yesterday I visited my local Wal-Mart, checking out what Estes rockets were available.

I thought they were discontinued, finally, I found a toy dept worker, I asked where the rockets were, she said that she sold the last two the day before.

These were the same two starter sets that have been there for months.

This Wal-Mart has done another reset in anticipation of Christmas merchandise.
The Estes rockets were in a prime location near the front near a main aisle, now, they have been moved to another aisle and further back.

At one time you could find numerous kits, now, only two.

Their engine selection was three display boxesm now, down to one, the engine selection was only A10's and C6-7's.

The engine offerings has been this way forever.

What does your local Wal-Mart offer?

mrhemi1971
09-03-2007, 10:08 AM
How does the "Stine Twine" work out for you? any problems compared to elastic or rubber? What length do you use? 1 1/2 the body tube lenght minimum?


On the bigger tubes I found that longer was better, I like to go 24 inches and up, on the smaller stuff 16-18 inches worked just fine with no problems. Smaller stuff meaning anything larger than a bt-5. For something that small, 12 inch length does just fine. As far as problems? If you use actual cotton twine, It has to be replaced every 18-20 flights. For the kevlar stuff I use now....I have one model with 45 flights with no problems showing

mrhemi1971
09-03-2007, 10:10 AM
Yesterday I visited my local Wal-Mart, checking out what Estes rockets were available.

I thought they were discontinued, finally, I found a toy dept worker, I asked where the rockets were, she said that she sold the last two the day before.

These were the same two starter sets that have been there for months.

This Wal-Mart has done another reset in anticipation of Christmas merchandise.
The Estes rockets were in a prime location near the front near a main aisle, now, they have been moved to another aisle and further back.

At one time you could find numerous kits, now, only two.

Their engine selection was three display boxesm now, down to one, the engine selection was only A10's and C6-7's.

The engine offerings has been this way forever.

What does your local Wal-Mart offer?


My local wally world is the same way, 2-3 starter sets, and c6-7's and a10-3t's and kind of hidden away..

Solomoriah
09-03-2007, 10:53 AM
I have occasion to visit several different Wal-Mart stores in the NE Missouri/Western IL area. In general, the engines available are limited to A10-3T, C6-3/5/7, and A8-3. I think I did see B6-4's once. The Launchables Outlaw/Black Diamond set, the set with the camera (forget the name) and one or two RTF packages are commonly available. There are two different RTF mini-rocket sets with launch equipment; one costs under $10 and includes the Electron Beam controller, which as far as I know is the cheapest way to get one. Then there are generally a few kits, the Heatseeker, the Star Dart/Sizzler combo (another bargain package), and sometimes a Gauchito or Bullpup (that's where mine came from).

The thing is, the distribution is very random. One store might have just C6-5 engines, another might have a mix; wait a few weeks and look again and the story is different.

snuggles
09-03-2007, 11:27 AM
Hi. Someone asked about twine for shock cords. I went slightly overboard and use mason's line(the stuff you use for chalk lines) My experience has been really good with this material, plenty strong. I obtained a roll about 5+years ago and still have some left. It's never broken
I usually use twice the BT length and it wotks GREAT!!! No Estes dent.
My 2 cents
Mark T NAR27793 L2

Royatl
09-03-2007, 11:46 AM
Yesterday I visited my local Wal-Mart, checking out what Estes rockets were available.

I thought they were discontinued, finally, I found a toy dept worker, I asked where the rockets were, she said that she sold the last two the day before.

These were the same two starter sets that have been there for months.

This Wal-Mart has done another reset in anticipation of Christmas merchandise.
The Estes rockets were in a prime location near the front near a main aisle, now, they have been moved to another aisle and further back.

At one time you could find numerous kits, now, only two.

Their engine selection was three display boxesm now, down to one, the engine selection was only A10's and C6-7's.

The engine offerings has been this way forever.

What does your local Wal-Mart offer?

Last time I looked when they had a full selection (i keep an eye on five or six WMs in my general area)... they had the usual: SnapShots, StarshipOne sets, a few standard RTF sets, the little plastic crap set, the two rocket set, a tiny bit of Launchables, and this year they had a couple of 1" RTFs along the line of the Metalizer -- solid chrome and solid gold foil rockets. Then there were a couple of new "pencil" RTFs based on the Gnome. Motor selection was C6-3 & 5, A8-3, A10-3T. Once in awhile I'd see some B6-4.

Right now, like you said, they're going through a reset

CPMcGraw
09-03-2007, 01:25 PM
Yesterday I visited my local Wal-Mart, checking out what Estes rockets were available...What does your local Wal-Mart offer?

The one at my front door (literally!) has three starter sets with the Outlaw and Black Diamond (aka Viking), about half a box of those gold and silver RTF Alpha wannabes, a few odd micros, less than two full boxes of motors (mostly C6-3, and C6-5 -- no As or Bs, except for a pack of A10s), a couple of Heatseeker Launchables, a couple of "Sizzler/Star Dart" Launchables, and...

One RTF X-15 starter set...

Rocket Doctor
09-03-2007, 01:44 PM
Hi. Someone asked about twine for shock cords. I went slightly overboard and use mason's line(the stuff you use for chalk lines) My experience has been really good with this material, plenty strong. I obtained a roll about 5+years ago and still have some left. It's never broken
I usually use twice the BT length and it wotks GREAT!!! No Estes dent.
My 2 cents
Mark T NAR27793 L2



Mark

Thanks for your 2 cents.

There seems to be common materials available other than elastic, kevlar and rubber bands.

Like I mentioned previously, and Roy pointed out, Stine suggested twine "Stine Twine" method.
The bottom line is, keep everything together without burning up and denting.

That's a good suggestion about the chalk line string readily availabe in most building outlets.

Rocket Doctor
09-03-2007, 01:50 PM
Last time I looked when they had a full selection (i keep an eye on five or six WMs in my general area)... they had the usual: SnapShots, StarshipOne sets, a few standard RTF sets, the little plastic crap set, the two rocket set, a tiny bit of Launchables, and this year they had a couple of 1" RTFs along the line of the Metalizer -- solid chrome and solid gold foil rockets. Then there were a couple of new "pencil" RTFs based on the Gnome. Motor selection was C6-3 & 5, A8-3, A10-3T. Once in awhile I'd see some B6-4.

Right now, like you said, they're going through a reset



Well, most of the Wally World Watchers have been very fortunate to see ROCKETS in their areas. Like Roy, I keep watch on a handful of WM, and they all have little to nothing.

I was to a WM in SC, they had absolutely nothing. On the otherhand, if you go into the WM on Hwy 50 in Canon City CO, 10 miles weat of Penrose, they carry tons of Estes products, is that a coincidence or what ????

moonzero2
09-03-2007, 08:43 PM
Hi. Someone asked about twine for shock cords. I went slightly overboard and use mason's line(the stuff you use for chalk lines) My experience has been really good with this material, plenty strong. I obtained a roll about 5+years ago and still have some left. It's never broken
I usually use twice the BT length and it wotks GREAT!!! No Estes dent.
My 2 cents
Mark T NAR27793 L2

Thanks, good to know. How are you attaching the mason's line? to the engine mount? if yes, any problems with the mason line burning?

snuggles
09-04-2007, 04:56 AM
I've attached the line in a couple different ways, on smaller tubes I have used the Estes paper fold, taken a small hunk of tube, tied the string around it and glued it in position.
And lastly, for larger models, I use picture hanging wire and ferrules, attached it to the MMT and looped it just short of the BT end and attached the line to it. Never had one break .
Mark T

Shreadvector
09-04-2007, 09:52 AM
I use cotton cable cord in some models. Not twine. Not mason's line. (see below....) :) :D

It is virtually indestructable as long as it is not directly subjected to the blowtorch-like flame of the motor delay afterburn (the "Hibachi Effect"). if you must anchor to the thrust ring, use Kevlar cord like Quest does.

Anyway, the cotton cable cord can be used in an Estes E2X kit like the Hijax, NAVY, ARMY, Heatseeker, etc. as the anchor cord. Simply tie a knot in the end of a 6 to 12 inch piece and attach that end to the platic guillotine (I mean anchor). Be sure to use the plasitc internal anchor and not throw it away like the new instructions say. They revised instructions and had you throw this piece away since plastic cement would dissolve and destroy the new plasticy-rubber cords. Anyway, simply tie the shock cord provided to the end of the cotton cable cord and it will last for years.

Cotton cable cord can also be used with a conventional shock cord mount against the side of the tube on larger diameter models OR you can secure it to an upper centering ring on a rocket with a long stuffer tube or a larger diameter rocket (to keep it away from the afterburn).


Yes, Cable Cord is sold as "twine" and "chalk line", etc.
http://www.amazon.com/Ace-Cotton-Cable-Cord-71498/dp/B000UGV9HW
http://fasteners.hardwarestore.com/16-64-clothesline-cordage-and-plastic.aspx

A "real" hardware store will stock it in various thicknesses and lengths.

Ltvscout
09-04-2007, 10:01 AM
Any kind of detail is an extra cost center, and is probably frowned upon unless absolutely necessary, and then it is probably encouraged to go to existing parts, like the Atlas and Titan III plastic parts used in the North Coast Interceptor G.
Interesting. I didn't realize this.

Solomoriah
09-04-2007, 10:21 AM
I'm not bashing Estes,just making a point, I tried, let me tell you !!!!!
Bah. How is it that the Baby Bertha is cheaper than the Alpha? The Alpha has a smaller BT and fewer fins.

So long as they compete first on price, they will always make products that need upgrading even as you build them.

Rocket Doctor
09-04-2007, 05:08 PM
Ask Barry that question.
I designed and wrote instructions mainly.
Pricing is up to marketing.
The same holds true foe the Skywriter, go figure. Both of these kits have done well.

Why is the new Red Max $19.99 ?

Rocket Doctor
09-04-2007, 05:10 PM
Pick up a few Converters
Skywriters
Baby Bertas
36 D Squared's

Royatl
09-04-2007, 05:39 PM
Interesting. I didn't realize this.

Then again, Matt may have just seen the parts in the warehouse and decided it'd be kinda neat to use them!

Doug Sams
09-04-2007, 06:53 PM
Bah. How is it that the Baby Bertha is cheaper than the Alpha? The Alpha has a smaller BT and fewer fins.

So long as they compete first on price, they will always make products that need upgrading even as you build them.Interesting that you should say compete. I believe it is indeed competition that dictates this apparent discrepancy. When Quest kits were still at Hobby Lobby, you never saw any Big Berthas. I think it's because Estes didn't want to go toe-to-toe on price against the Big Betty. So they put Baby Berthas there instead. These competed with the Big Bettys and also with the Full Moon, with the Full Moon dictating the Baby Bertha price IMO. The key though is that the Big Bertha price didn't get degraded so traditional hobby shop operators could maintain their higher ~$20 pricing for that kit.

I definitely noticed that the Estes HL offering lacked several of the "standard" Estes kits and could only conclude that they were avoiding Quest and also protecting their old fashioned hobby retailers. Since Quest has left HL, the Estes offering is much bigger, although I still don't see Big Berthas there.

While it's logical to associate price with cost, in reality it's the competition. We do the same with the chips we make at my employer. We charge whatever the market will bear. If I can build five different products out of one chip and there are competitive crosses for four of them, you can bet that the fifth, unique version will command a considerably higher price even though it costs the same to make.

Doug

Ltvscout
09-04-2007, 08:09 PM
Then again, Matt may have just seen the parts in the warehouse and decided it'd be kinda neat to use them!
Maybe he'll chime in and then we'll all know. ;)

Rocket Doctor
09-04-2007, 08:23 PM
Then again, Matt may have just seen the parts in the warehouse and decided it'd be kinda neat to use them!




Parts probably were thrown away. Many "spare" parts at Estes are crushed, vintage, new, anything not currently being used.

Rocket Doctor
09-04-2007, 08:33 PM
Interesting that you should say compete. I believe it is indeed competition that dictates this apparent discrepancy. When Quest kits were still at Hobby Lobby, you never saw any Big Berthas. I think it's because Estes didn't want to go toe-to-toe on price against the Big Betty. So they put Baby Berthas there instead. These competed with the Big Bettys and also with the Full Moon, with the Full Moon dictating the Baby Bertha price IMO. The key though is that the Big Bertha price didn't get degraded so traditional hobby shop operators could maintain their higher ~$20 pricing for that kit.

I definitely noticed that the Estes HL offering lacked several of the "standard" Estes kits and could only conclude that they were avoiding Quest and also protecting their old fashioned hobby retailers. Since Quest has left HL, the Estes offering is much bigger, although I still don't see Big Berthas there.

While it's logical to associate price with cost, in reality it's the competition. We do the same with the chips we make at my employer. We charge whatever the market will bear. If I can build five different products out of one chip and there are competitive crosses for four of them, you can bet that the fifth, unique version will command a considerably higher price even though it costs the same to make.

Doug






I came up with the Baby Bertha concept, the only design that they actually used my suggested name.

They had the mini and maxi, but, nothing inbetween, it was only a natural.

The Baby Bertha is in the top five selling kits.

Read the reviews on the Baby.

I was just as surprised when the kit came out and the price was so ow.

Also remember that the Big Bertha has been around forever.

I would like to see a paint scheme for both Bertha's.

Many youngsters as well as BAR's have benefitted from the low cost, and the price has only gone up slightly since it was first introdeced.

Gus
09-04-2007, 09:27 PM
Parts probably were thrown away. Many "spare" parts at Estes are crushed, vintage, new, anything not currently being used.
Doc,

A couple of years ago there was a seller on Ebay named David400_2 who auctioned off a huge amount of what apperared to be Estes discards. The auctions included nosecones sold in large lots, OOP kits like the Twister, Heliocopter, and others that were uncarded and obviously originally intended for starter sets, and a bunch of other usually unobtainable stuff. I bought some of the nosecones and they arrived very dirty, but still very usuable. It seemed like they must have been sitting in open bins for years.

I always wondered if the items came from an auctioned off storage locker someplace or if the seller had gone dumpster diving. Because the volume of stuff he sold would have easily filled a storage locker I always presumed he must have bought it at auction, seemed like way too much to have salvaged from a dumpster. Also, it seemed like he knew next to nothing about what he was selling so it didn't seem like he was an Estes insider. Does Estes periodically sell or auction off their discards?

The whole thing also made me wonder if Estes is still sitting on mounds of this stuff somewhere. I keep hoping so. :p

Rocket Doctor
09-04-2007, 09:36 PM
The ebay seller David400 who last sold over a year ago was dumpster diving.
The items were odd balls, taking up space.

Estes does not auction off small lots, now, any extras are crushed.

Thw warehouse use to be in Pueblo, and, has since been moved to a new building on the Estes sie.

Everyone at one location.

Smaller building, less transportation.

Usually common parts are used in a varity of kits if possible.

Gus
09-04-2007, 09:39 PM
...any extras are crushed.
That ought to be illegal! :eek:

Was Estes P.O.'d that the stuff made it to market?

Seems really silly just to throw that kind of stuff away. If nothing else, they could take a good deduction donating it to one of the local NAR clubs.

mrhemi1971
09-04-2007, 09:55 PM
PLEASE DEAR GOD! Let there be parts! I often wondered the same question... I'd love to come across some of the little stuff, I used to have all the EAC patches, but lost all of that in a fire, Now that I'm older, I'd love to come across some of that, and now that I'm on here I think it will be an easier search

tbzep
09-04-2007, 10:03 PM
Other than motors what's left that's actually made at Estes? I figured everything other than motors is being made in China now so there wouldn't be any rejects to destroy at Estes. :(

scigs30
09-04-2007, 10:07 PM
Parts probably were thrown away. Many "spare" parts at Estes are crushed, vintage, new, anything not currently being used.
I called Christine last year before they started cleaning house and collected as much stuff as I could. Mainly OOP body tubes and plastic nose cones....No balsa parts.

mrhemi1971
09-04-2007, 10:21 PM
What nose cones do you have? any you'd care to part with?

dwmzmm
09-04-2007, 10:39 PM
What nose cones do you have? any you'd care to part with?

There's still conflicting reports as to whether or not BMS has the equipment from Estes that
was used to make the nose cones and other balsa parts....

Ltvscout
09-04-2007, 10:46 PM
There's still conflicting reports as to whether or not BMS has the equipment from Estes that
was used to make the nose cones and other balsa parts....
If you search through some of the threads here you'll find that some of the members here asked Bill about the Estes machines. He said he never had them.

Rocket Doctor
09-04-2007, 11:22 PM
At both the Penrose site and the Pueblo site (warehouse)things were stuck away in every nook and cranny.

Just like owning a house or apartment, until you mone, you have no clue as to what you have.

There was alot of small amounts of parts, decals etc, not enough for productiuon and from kits that would never be made again.

When the warehouse moved from Pueblo to Penrose rhis spring, it required a massive cleanout program.

The policy now is that any materials that are being discarded will be destroyed no matter what............usually crushed.

Even employees can't get anything.......PERIOD !!!

Lots of lost history, vintage items gone forever, what a shame.
Everything computerized and tight inventory control.

Royatl
09-05-2007, 12:41 AM
Doc,

A couple of years ago there was a seller on Ebay named David400_2 who auctioned off a huge amount of what apperared to be Estes discards. The auctions included nosecones sold in large lots, OOP kits like the Twister, Heliocopter, and others that were uncarded and obviously originally intended for starter sets, and a bunch of other usually unobtainable stuff. I bought some of the nosecones and they arrived very dirty, but still very usuable. It seemed like they must have been sitting in open bins for years.

I always wondered if the items came from an auctioned off storage locker someplace or if the seller had gone dumpster diving. Because the volume of stuff he sold would have easily filled a storage locker I always presumed he must have bought it at auction, seemed like way too much to have salvaged from a dumpster. Also, it seemed like he knew next to nothing about what he was selling so it didn't seem like he was an Estes insider. Does Estes periodically sell or auction off their discards?

The whole thing also made me wonder if Estes is still sitting on mounds of this stuff somewhere. I keep hoping so. :p

I assumed the "dirt" was soot, and it was collateral damage from the big brush fire in '99. You know, insurance company comes in, pays a lump sum, condemns the whole warehouse that was damaged and sells it to a liquidator who tries to get whatever they can out of it. I got a bunch of Super Big Bertha nose cones, and some fairly useless bags of igniter plugs (anyone need plugs for your C5 and B8 motors?), but also got a bunch of BNC70 noses and BA6070 adapters.

Rocketking
09-05-2007, 01:52 AM
While visiting family members West of Denver, I made a call to inquire whether an 'old-timer' rocketeer like me might be able to pay a visit. Being an equipment designer, I wanted to get a look at manufacturing equipment. Other than engines (which I was Not allowed anywhere near, the only manufacturing equipment I saw was igniter manufacturing. I certainly didn't get to see everything, but there wasn't much Mary Roberts didn't take me around to see.

The cost differential between American labor costs and that available from China is just too great. While smaller companies like Semroc and Fliskits can proudly say "Made in America", very few others producing any volume can do so.

Rocket Doctor
09-05-2007, 05:35 AM
I assumed the "dirt" was soot, and it was collateral damage from the big brush fire in '99. You know, insurance company comes in, pays a lump sum, condemns the whole warehouse that was damaged and sells it to a liquidator who tries to get whatever they can out of it. I got a bunch of Super Big Bertha nose cones, and some fairly useless bags of igniter plugs (anyone need plugs for your C5 and B8 motors?), but also got a bunch of BNC70 noses and BA6070 adapters.



The brush fire near Estes caused damage to a engine storage facility. The engine storage area are well spaced apart from each other.

The dirt was just that dirt and not soot.

The Estes warehouse was located in Pueblo, some thirty minutes eact of Penrose, so, I don't think that the brush fire had anything to do with it.

Just clean a garage or basemeny and see how much dirt is stirred up.

David400 from ebay was a dumpster diver, that's for sure, I cannot add anymore than that, but, beleive me. that is what happened.

Some of the dumpster treasures were rejects, shot down by incoming inspection, so, that is where these items should have been, in the trash.

The warehouse is in Penrose, a modern facility and everything is kepy under a watchful eye.

Anything that is thown out is destroyed, crushed.

Gus
09-05-2007, 05:40 AM
I can understand throwing out, or destroying, parts that aren't up to spec.

But why would Estes throw out cases of bagged kits?

Where are the new dumpsters, by the way? ;)

mrhemi1971
09-05-2007, 07:30 AM
I assumed the "dirt" was soot, and it was collateral damage from the big brush fire in '99. You know, insurance company comes in, pays a lump sum, condemns the whole warehouse that was damaged and sells it to a liquidator who tries to get whatever they can out of it. I got a bunch of Super Big Bertha nose cones, and some fairly useless bags of igniter plugs (anyone need plugs for your C5 and B8 motors?), but also got a bunch of BNC70 noses and BA6070 adapters.


Which bnc-70 nose cones? I bought a designers special set back on the 80's that has a bt-70 in it, that was the first time I ever got one in a set. I still have the tube, but no nose cone..wanna sell one?

Rocket Doctor
09-05-2007, 07:44 AM
Which bnc-70 nose cones? I bought a designers special set back on the 80's that has a bt-70 in it, that was the first time I ever got one in a set. I still have the tube, but no nose cone..wanna sell one?




I have about six original BNC-70 balsa nose cones.

Rocket Doctor
09-05-2007, 07:47 AM
I can understand throwing out, or destroying, parts that aren't up to spec.

But why would Estes throw out cases of bagged kits?

Where are the new dumpsters, by the way? ;)





Don't know about the new warehouse,but, I do know that you cannot get anywhere near the dumpsters and all materials would have been totally destroyed at that point.

Just consider that the dumpster diving days are overwith as of about a year ago !!!!!!!

Rocket Doctor
09-05-2007, 08:02 AM
It was announced today that Mattel has issued another toy recall, the third in a month.


By this time, most 2007 Christmas toys have been made and awaiting shipment to the USA.
As far as retail goes, Christmas isn't that far away. Wal-Mart has begun the toy dept reset in anticipation on their holiday offerings.

Profits seem to be the bottom line, and it was reported that China supplies 80% of thw worldwide toy manufacturing.

I remember years ago, you woulf pick up an item with a sticker on the bottom stating "Made In Japan" which many consumer stayed away from.

Look at all the recals of items from China, a broad spectrum of items, don't we all feel sorry for the American companies who have chosen to go to China and charge American prices.

Hurah for those like Semroc who have chosen to be All American - Made In The USA, better quality and better quality control and customer service.

Cranking out products by the thousands isn't the answer as we have found out lately.

So, this holiday season, when the toy aisles are bare, the pet food aisle is bare, and the kids clothing section is in short supply, who is to blame...................fill in the dotted line.

This is my opinion, what's yours?

Shreadvector
09-05-2007, 08:23 AM
Am I the only one who finds it odd that this thread seems to cover everything and now someone is attempting to turn it into a politcal discussion thread as well?

Is it possible to split or organize the discussions?

Rocket Doctor
09-05-2007, 08:50 AM
Am I the only one who finds it odd that this thread seems to cover everything and now someone is attempting to turn it into a politcal discussion thread as well?

Is it possible to split or organize the discussions?



not political

tHE SUBJECT OF ROCKETS BEING MADE IN cHINA WAS THE START OF THIS TOPIC.
So, wht is this political?

Availability of kits and what is being offered is subject matter.

Over and over again the question of China made kits have been discussed.

So, if you think that is what is political, that's your opinion.

My opinion is, just look what is happening with all China made items.

This is far from a political statement, stating the facts as reported oin the news is news, nothing more and nothing less.....

Solomoriah
09-05-2007, 08:56 AM
Well, at the risk of being seen as political... once upon a time, Made In Japan was a bad thing. Now they make luxury items. Then Made In Korea was bad. Now they are making some pretty high quality goods. Today, Made In China is a bad thing...

... it's just a matter of time. They will lose a bunch of American $$$ over this, and it will teach them a lesson, and they will get better too.

Shreadvector
09-05-2007, 08:57 AM
not political

tHE SUBJECT OF ROCKETS BEING MADE IN cHINA WAS THE START OF THIS TOPIC.
So, wht is this political?

Availability of kits and what is being offered is subject matter.

Over and over again the question of China made kits have been discussed.

So, if you think that is what is political, that's your opinion.

My opinion is, just look what is happening with all China made items.

This is far from a political statement, stating the facts as reported oin the news is news, nothing more and nothing less.....

You missed my point.


I don't care if there are political discussions.

I was simply trying to ask if this one thread is going to be used for discussing everything in a giant stream-of-conciousness way or if there was any thought about sub-dividing conversations into logical topics or sub-categories.

Perhaps I'm really asking if there should be a full-sized/full featured Ye Olde Rocket Doctor Forum with sub-forums for different topics? Or perhaps I'm not really asking that? Maybe I have no idea what I'm asking? :confused: :D ;) :eek:

Oh well, time for a 5 minute work break. :rolleyes: :D

Royatl
09-05-2007, 09:03 AM
Which bnc-70 nose cones? I bought a designers special set back on the 80's that has a bt-70 in it, that was the first time I ever got one in a set. I still have the tube, but no nose cone..wanna sell one?

There was only ever one BNC-70, the AJ. Available since '69 or '70, but AFAIK, only used on a Centuri kit in the late 70's or early 80's. Semroc makes a version.

surdumil
09-05-2007, 09:16 AM
There's also the question of who is making decisions and who is being blamed for them.

The toy industry probably works differently, but where I work, we perform "build to print" very often. The customer hands us manufacturing specifications, manufacturing details, and a very detailed parts list. We build the required number of items and ship them to the customer, who then inspects the items for quality and distributes the items for sale to their customers.

At every step, the "build to print" customer has control over how the product is built, what goes into the product, and final quality assurance.

In my opinion, the Mattel toy recall is a Mattel problem, not a chest-thumping nationalistic statement that faults China. This is where the whole issue becomes political. Are Chinese manufacturers at fault, or are American corporate decisions at fault?

With model rocket manufacturers, the same question applies. Who is really at fault for releasing shoddy products for public sale?

Dwayne Surdu-Miller

Royatl
09-05-2007, 09:17 AM
I was simply trying to ask if this one thread is going to be used for discussing everything in a giant stream-of-conciousness way or if there was any thought about sub-dividing conversations into logical topics or sub-categories.



All you have to do is start up another thread!

surdumil
09-05-2007, 09:41 AM
Shread had done, but received no response over a fairly lengthy time.

Shreadvector
09-05-2007, 09:53 AM
Shread had done, but received no response over a fairly lengthy time.

Actually, Matt Steele had started a new thread with a clearly stated title/subject line and nobody responded (until I did this morning with appropriate emoticon ;) ).

Just looking to make messages and info easier to find in the future. This can be a valuable resource for storing and retrieving information. Or maybe I'm just talkin' crazy.

Rocket Doctor
09-05-2007, 10:36 AM
Point well taken !!

My statement wasn't political, just my opinion.

Hopefully, it wull be the case, better quality, but, when you hear these reports on a daily basis, it makes you wonder.

Not picking on Estes or any other rocket company, what materials are going into those?
Hopefully all materials have been checked.
AND I AM NOT SUGGESTING IN ANYWAY THAT ROCKEY ROCKET FROM CHINA ARE TAINTED IN ANYWAY,but,it just makes you wonder.
fROM TOOTHPASTE TO TOYS ???????

THIS OMLY MY OPINION,NOT POLITICAL AND NOT DIRECTED TOWARDS ANY PARTICULAR MANUFACTURER OF ANY KIND !!!!!

Royatl
09-05-2007, 10:44 AM
Actually, Matt Steele had started a new thread with a clearly stated title/subject line and nobody responded (until I did this morning with appropriate emoticon ;) ).

Just looking to make messages and info easier to find in the future. This can be a valuable resource for storing and retrieving information. Or maybe I'm just talkin' crazy.

Then RD should lock this thread, thus forcing people to start new threads. Or, as he used to do on the Estes Forum, he should create a few threads on various topics, to generate new discussions.

Rocket Doctor
09-05-2007, 10:57 AM
I didn't want to create a firestorm here, we are all friends in the hobby and we all have our own opinions.

Many posters have given excellent advise and provided valuable information to all of us.

Were never too old to learn new information and to create new topics for discussions.

This thread is allitle different from the norm, we are all here to chat and to share are varied opinions.

Were not here to pick on any particular company or individual.

If a tpoic is taken out of context, I do apologize for that.

I hopt that we call all continue lively anf informative discussions here.

Thanks to all for your unput.....

surdumil
09-05-2007, 11:06 AM
Oops. My responses came across heavier than I intended. I apologize for that.

Now, consarn it, someone roast my responses, please! :)

ARTU
09-05-2007, 11:07 AM
......snip..
Oh well, time for a 5 minute work break. :rolleyes: :D


Wow, are you not at work too early for Kali Time :eek:

Most don't get to work till 9:00-9:30am PDT due to traffic issues

Rocket Doctor
09-05-2007, 11:22 AM
Oops. My responses came across heavier than I intended. I apologize for that.

Now, consarn it, someone roast my responses, please! :)




Were all here for one main reason ROCKETRY, with our own opinions and thoughts, which is great.

Model Rocketry 49 plus years and counting............long live the hobby !!!

Shreadvector
09-05-2007, 12:38 PM
I officially/normally start work at 6am. I am usually here by 5 am. That way I can have more time to work with my east coast folks and my supplier in the UK.

If I attempted to get to work at 7 or 8 or 9 am I would be on the freeway for up to 2 hours. Instead I am only on the road about 30 minutes (at about 75 MPH).

Several years ago there was almost nobody on the road at that hour, now there are MANY other cars, but at least they are moving fast.

Wow, are you not at work too early for Kali Time :eek:

Most don't get to work till 9:00-9:30am PDT due to traffic issues

tbzep
09-05-2007, 03:08 PM
I don't think my question was ever answered....either that or I just missed it with the flurry of posts that occured later.

I know that motors and ignitors are made at Estes, but is there anything else still made here at all?

ARTU
09-05-2007, 03:38 PM
....Instead I am only on the road about 30 minutes (at about 75 MPH).....
.

Hi Fred, that you said about 5am sounds kewl, guess you get to get off early too, thats cool.

Is their a website or phone number with the Kali Department Of Transportation Safety Code that spells out the maximum speed you are allowed to travel by car on their hi-ways ?

:p

Oh, I found it here :

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/pgs19thru22.htm

The maximum speed limit on most California highways is 65 mph. You may drive 70 mph where posted. Unless otherwise posted, the maximum speed limit is 55 mph on two-lane undivided highways and for vehicles towing trailers.

Other speed limit signs are posted for the type of roads and traffic in each area. All speed limits are based on ideal driving conditions. Construction zones usually have reduced speed zones.

Driving faster than the posted speed limit, or than is safe for current conditions, on any road is dangerous and illegal. High speed increases your stopping distance. The faster you go, the less time you have to avoid a hazard or accident. The force of a 60 mph crash isnít just twice as great as a 30 mph crash, itís four times as great!

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry Fred, I just could not help myself :D

moonzero2
09-05-2007, 03:43 PM
I have a new question:
Back in the '60s and '70s there were a lot of rocket designs sent in to Estes for the "Design of The Month". Some of the 1st place winners were published. What ever happened to the 2nd places on down designs? One would imagine there were a lot of good designs in there that no one outside Estes has seen. Is there any way these could be released to the public?

Shreadvector
09-05-2007, 04:07 PM
Yup. Posted limits are generally 65 and 70 MPH and the key phrase used in court is "or than is safe for current conditions".

If I drove slower, I would be a traffic hazard and could be pulled over. They generally like you to stay below 80 MPH. 70 to 75 is optimal.

Having Howard Stern on your Sirius Satellite Radio is also advisable if you anticipate being pulled over.

If anyone needs a 15% discount on equipment and/or a $50 rebate on any professional installation (like you get from "Installcard", just send me an e-mail.

And a Baba-booey to yah all.

Hi Fred, that you said about 5am sounds kewl, guess you get to get off early too, thats cool.

Is their a website or phone number with the Kali Department Of Transportation Safety Code that spells out the maximum speed you are allowed to travel by car on their hi-ways ?

:p

Oh, I found it here :

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/pgs19thru22.htm

The maximum speed limit on most California highways is 65 mph. You may drive 70 mph where posted. Unless otherwise posted, the maximum speed limit is 55 mph on two-lane undivided highways and for vehicles towing trailers.

Other speed limit signs are posted for the type of roads and traffic in each area. All speed limits are based on ideal driving conditions. Construction zones usually have reduced speed zones.

Driving faster than the posted speed limit, or than is safe for current conditions, on any road is dangerous and illegal. High speed increases your stopping distance. The faster you go, the less time you have to avoid a hazard or accident. The force of a 60 mph crash isnít just twice as great as a 30 mph crash, itís four times as great!

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry Fred, I just could not help myself :D

Leo
09-05-2007, 04:09 PM
You poor fellas. Having to drive sooo slow to work and all :D

ARTU
09-05-2007, 04:31 PM
Yup. Posted limits are generally 65 and 70 MPH and the key phrase used in court is "or than is safe for current conditions".

..l.

But the Kali DOT safety code says, and I quote "All speed limits are based on ideal driving conditions...Driving faster than the posted speed limit, or than is safe for current conditions, on any road is dangerous and illegal."

So how could you say driving faster is safer in court to get off?

Ideal was already slower. The others are breaking the law along with you and producing the unsafe condition.

I don't buy it ;)

I'll drop it for now , I don't want to be off topic.

Rocket Doctor
09-05-2007, 04:46 PM
I don't think my question was ever answered....either that or I just missed it with the flurry of posts that occured later.

I know that motors and ignitors are made at Estes, but is there anything else still made here at all?



That's about it. Mostly offices and warehouse. Other than motors and igniters.

Rocket Doctor
09-05-2007, 05:07 PM
I have a new question:
Back in the '60s and '70s there were a lot of rocket designs sent in to Estes for the "Design of The Month". Some of the 1st place winners were published. What ever happened to the 2nd places on down designs? One would imagine there were a lot of good designs in there that no one outside Estes has seen. Is there any way these could be released to the public?



I have no idea, the best one to ask is Mary Roberts. Most of the employees from that era have either retired or moved on.

Gus
09-05-2007, 05:34 PM
At one point Estes manufactured all parts and assembled all kits in the U.S.

My impression is that the volume of kits sold has continued to increase over the years to its present value while the U.S. manufacturing workforce has declined to almost zero.

Can anyone provide a bit of history with how gradually (or rapidly) that happened? Were lots of long time employees let go in one big purge, or was it more of a gradual phasing out of the U.S. workforce?

And what is left, workforce-wise (non-manufacturing) at Estes now?

Rocket Doctor
09-05-2007, 08:37 PM
At one point Estes manufactured all parts and assembled all kits in the U.S.

My impression is that the volume of kits sold has continued to increase over the years to its present value while the U.S. manufacturing workforce has declined to almost zero.

Can anyone provide a bit of history with how gradually (or rapidly) that happened? Were lots of long time employees let go in one big purge, or was it more of a gradual phasing out of the U.S. workforce?

And what is left, workforce-wise (non-manufacturing) at Estes now?




Once again Mary Roberts might answer that, and, on the otherhand, I doubt it. The employee base as far as I know is confidential.

Ltvscout
09-05-2007, 11:10 PM
Is their a website or phone number with the Kali Department Of Transportation Safety Code that spells out the maximum speed you are allowed to travel by car on their hi-ways ?

Sorry Fred, I just could not help myself :D
Hahahahahaha. Good one, Art! I was going to say something to that affect myself.

Breaking the law is breaking the law after all. No different than me shipping motors via USPS Parcel Post without any of that BS paperwork. ;)

Ltvscout
09-05-2007, 11:12 PM
You poor fellas. Having to drive sooo slow to work and all :D
I make my own autobahn over here in the states. Radar/Laser detectors are a must of course. :D

Nuke Rocketeer
09-06-2007, 08:36 AM
I make my own autobahn over here in the states. Radar/Laser detectors are a must of course. :D

And at least one or two sacrificial turkeys ahead of you by a quarter mile or so....... :)

Shreadvector
09-06-2007, 09:06 AM
Hahahahahaha. Good one, Art! I was going to say something to that affect myself.

Breaking the law is breaking the law after all. No different than me shipping motors via USPS Parcel Post without any of that BS paperwork. ;)

Obviously you did not read my response or the "law". It is not breaking the law as you call it.

ghrocketman
09-06-2007, 12:10 PM
Speed "limit" laws STINK !
The only speed limit my 425+hp 383 powered Z28 and Northstar V8 Cadillac STS observe is the speed I wish to limit the car to via my FOOT.
They have had the ECM speed limiters recalibrated to "FF", which is 255mph.
I still need to recalibrate my Envoy SLT.
If you are not driving 80+mph on I75 or I96/696 here in Michigan you most likely would be ran off the road anyway.

Nuke Rocketeer
09-06-2007, 12:17 PM
Boy, has this thread gone way OT!!!

BTW....A long stretch of I10 between El Paso and San Antonio Texas has gone to an 80 mph limit. It is a very long almost straight stretch of highway in excellent condition with virtually no population centers between those two cities. My Dad and brother have told me it is getting known as the Texas Autobahn.

Joe W

Bob H
09-06-2007, 11:18 PM
The only speed limit my 425+hp 383 powered Z28 ......
Gee,

My Z28 only had a 302 c.i.d. engine in it. :rolleyes:

Ltvscout
09-07-2007, 12:37 AM
Gee,

My Z28 only had a 302 c.i.d. engine in it. :rolleyes:
Suhweet! My dad had a '69 Z28 with the HO 302. Had it painted candy apple red. That was one fine muscle car.

Rocket Doctor
09-08-2007, 05:18 PM
Talking about horsepower, do a web search for the Reaction Motors XLR-11 engine which propelled the Bell X-1, and also the Reaction Motors XLR-99 engine that propelled the X-15.

There are XLR-99 engines on displat at Edwards AFB, Wright-Paterson in Ohio,Teterboro Aviation Museum in NJ and at the Air & Space Museum in Washington in an actual X-15 hung from the ceiling.

You can also see a test firing of the XLR-11 in the May 13,1946 issue of LIFE.

Rocket Doctor
09-09-2007, 05:00 PM
In The Shadow Of The Moon should be a great movie to see as was the Astronaut Farmer.

Rocket Doctor
09-10-2007, 05:41 AM
Fropm what I am told, the movie, In The Shadow Of The Moon had a limited release, but, should be in other areas soo.

Rocketking
09-10-2007, 06:55 AM
Will be showing in a small, independent theater next weekend. From the flyer I get...

"Stunningly Remastered NASA footage-- much of it never seen before-- conveys the daring, danger, pride and passion of the Apollo flights and moonwalks.

Between 1968 and 1972, nine American spacecraft traveled to the moon, and twelve men walked on its surface. Today, they remain the only human beings to have stood on ground beyond our planet. With kid-like exhilaration, the astronauts reminisce about their selection process and training, and about the thrills of exploring scientific frontiers. News footage similarly shows an international crowd elated at the Apollo program's "giant step for mankind" at a more innocent and idealistic time, when global regard for the United States was at its highest level (despite concurrent events in Vietnam). PG. 100 mins."

No doubt, from the advertising bits fashioned by the production team. I'll be in line to see it!

A later edit- Produced in the UK, dated 2006, directed by David Sington.

Rocket Doctor
09-10-2007, 07:44 AM
Going back to 1989, while attending adult space camp in Huntsville, Astronaut Alan Bean was the speaker at graduation .

He had a paperback out at the time ,which we all purchased and had autographed.

Astronaut Bean is also a very talented painter of space art

Shreadvector
09-10-2007, 09:25 AM
Going back to 1989, while attending adult space camp in Huntsville, Astronaut Alan Bean was the speaker at graduation .

He had a paperback out at the time ,which we all purchased and had autographed.

Astronaut Bean is also a very talented painter of space art

No relation?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0453451/

;) :D

Rocket Doctor
09-10-2007, 01:44 PM
Yea Fred, the very same one, who went on a long holiday to the Moon.

I saw this movie last week, some funny spots, but, I wouldn't write home about it though.

Rocket Doctor
09-10-2007, 01:46 PM
Half way thru the movie I think he was testing out the Porta Pot Shot........

tbzep
09-10-2007, 09:20 PM
"Stunningly Remastered NASA footage-- much of it never seen before-- conveys the daring, danger, pride and passion of the Apollo flights and moonwalks.

I've seen quite a few shows/movies that advertise "never seen footage", yet I don't think I've seen any new military or NASA footage of anything historical in the last 10 years.

Rocket Doctor
09-10-2007, 10:37 PM
I guess the only way to know for sure would be to go and see the movie.

From what I hear, it's an awesome film.

It should be in more market areas soon.

Mark II
09-11-2007, 05:33 AM
It was announced today that Mattel has issued another toy recall, the third in a month.
Here is a brief summary of why so many painted products contain lead. (And no, it's not because Chinese manufacturers are deliberately trying to poison American children.)

http://www.slate.com/id/2172289/

BTW, one point of view (libertarian, perhaps?) is that these manufactured products and parts are not supposed to be put into the mouth (and whatever happened to personal responsibility, anyway?).

I don't support that viewpoint, though; anyone who understands that children are not just "little adults" realizes that putting colorful things into the mouth is something that all very young kids are quite likely to do.

I just found it interesting to see what logic stood behind using lead in paint.

Mark

Rocket Doctor
09-11-2007, 06:27 AM
There will be a hearing today with the Chinese about ALL the tainted products, not only paint, dog food, tooth paste.

American companies have guidelines on the manufacture of their products.

Where is quality control, both at the Chinese factories and once again at incoming inspection once it reaches are shores.

In my opinion, I think that it is a cost factor here.
We can't assume products are safe, not when so many have been recalled lately.

And, children will be children, even if you watched them 24/7, if the product is defective, then what ??????

ghrocketman
09-11-2007, 11:54 AM
I can see both sides of the issue here;
While I don't reccommend we go back to the days of using lead paint, I am a hug advocate for PERSONAL resposibility to use products as INTENDED.
ALL bets should be off if they are not using as intended and quite frankly I'd like to see corporations absolved of any liability as a result of that....attorneys hate me.
I grew up in the era of leaded fuel, leaded house paint, and lead automotive paint. Never had the urge to drink leaded fuel, chew leaded painted household items, toys, or car fenders. Why ?
Because I had a proper upbringing with good parents that taught us if we do STUPID things you can get hurt....I actually listened to them and acknowledged the only proper things to put in your mouth are food and drink.
Guess what ? I have never had any form of lead poisoning.
Nowadays, thanks to our legal system that is full of idiot judges that allow frivolous lawsuits in their courtrooms and the lawyers that bring the suits, Nobody has virtually ANY personal responsibility. It is ALWAYS the fault of the product, whether used properly or for some moronic un-intended use.
As far as I'm concerned if a product is capable of being safely used for the intended purpose, no liability for the product unless defective should exist.
In the case of toys with leaded paint, DON'T FREAKING EAT OR CHEW THEM !
Parents should know at all times what their toddlers are doing without exception, period.

stefanj
09-11-2007, 01:15 PM
Personal responsibility and a good upbringing doesn't help if the lead is in the air, or in the form of dust shed from paint, or if you don't know that product "X" has lead in it.

Rocket Doctor
09-11-2007, 02:10 PM
What we did years ago doesn't justify what we do today.

We use to use tons of asbestos, until we found out it can harm you.

We have better testing methods now, as in medical science, what we did a handful of years ago, we, certainly don't do know.

Bottom line, what is the purpose of leaded paint in childrens toys for antway.

Even pacifiers had problems, now what do you do? Bibs as well, kid's will be kid's, just a part of growing up.

Times have changed, safety should be our main concern, forget about judges, lawyers ,we need to get back to basics.

ghrocketman
09-11-2007, 04:46 PM
I was not trying to say we should revert to using lead; I was just trying to point out the fact that in our litigious society, the end user is never to blame no matter if they are using a product in a stupid manner never intended by the manufacturer.

That is why Hair dryers are labeled "do not submerge when in use", Gunpowder is labeled Explosive (duh), silica dessicant bags are labeled "do not eat", and other nonsense that only Darwin Award candidates would try.

If a product meets the legal standards when produced , that should be the limit of manufacturer liability.
I don't buy the asbestos lawsuits or any of that baloney; it was legal when used, in my book that should be the bottom line.
I don't buy the baloney of companies having to fund environmental cleanups of sites when they dumped paint sludges or insecticides or whatever when it was legal....if it was legal when they did it that should defacto absolve them of ANY future liability resulting from their previous LEGAL actions. If someone else wants to change / cleanup something THEY should eat the cost.

Amazing I survived growing up without seatbelts, with leaded fuel & paints, no child safety seats, no ABS brakes or Air Bags, Cigarette/Cigar smoke everywhere, and No helmets on bicycle riders. There was much more freedom for individual choices without some agency butting into individual freedoms at the expense of some greater supposed societal good.

Back in my day as a child., I shudder to think of what would happen to a child riding a bike wearing a helmet....they would have probably been ostracized for their entire childhood.

Rocket Doctor
09-11-2007, 05:07 PM
Welcome to the 21st Century !!!!!

ghrocketman
09-12-2007, 10:25 AM
I'm here, but that does not mean a lot would not be better if it was still the way of the past.

DaveR
09-12-2007, 11:23 AM
I'm here, but that does not mean a lot would not be better if it was still the way of the past.
I concur. Seems life was a lot simpler back then.

pantherjon
09-12-2007, 11:52 AM
It was...I look around at some of the things in this day and age..Man we did sooooo many things when I was a kid/teenager that today I would be crucified for, but, back then was nothing...oh well, time rolls on, things change...

Rocket Doctor
09-12-2007, 01:18 PM
I AGREE...................now it's on to rocketry...

Rocket Doctor
09-13-2007, 05:11 AM
To get back on the topic of rockets, how about a recap of your flying season, type of rockets used, engines, location.

How many of you have purchased the DRM and Interceptor?

mrhemi1971
09-13-2007, 06:24 AM
To get back on the topic of rockets, how about a recap of your flying season, type of rockets used, engines, location.

How many of you have purchased the DRM and Interceptor?

I bought the interceptor a couple of weeks ago, just waiting for my local hobby shop to get the DRM back in and to get the big interceptor too.. But in the past week, I've probably started 4 more projects...(sniff sniff)....MMmmmmm BALSA!!!!!

Rocket Doctor
09-13-2007, 07:29 AM
I bought the interceptor a couple of weeks ago, just waiting for my local hobby shop to get the DRM back in and to get the big interceptor too.. But in the past week, I've probably started 4 more projects...(sniff sniff)....MMmmmmm BALSA!!!!!


So what did you think about the reissued Interceptor?

What are your other projects?

Where is your local hobby shop, do they carry alot of rocketry materials?

barone
09-13-2007, 08:21 AM
To get back on the topic of rockets, how about a recap of your flying season, type of rockets used, engines, location.

How many of you have purchased the DRM and Interceptor?
I picked up the DRM a couple of weeks ago. I got mine from a local hobby shop at the Cloverleaf Shopping Center (they had one left Dave :) ). Started it this past weekend. Really like the balsa stock that came with it. Nice tight grains. And I was really surprised that the body tube seam wasn't very wide. Reminded me of the tubes I get from Semroc. I won't mention the fact that the shock cord is way too short :rolleyes: since I swap them out with the braided elastic cords I get at Walmart anyway. I also like the parachute. Quite unique. Working on the primer now. Used cheap grey equipment primer from Walmart as base primer. Sanding it down to nothing then applying a coat of Kilnz primer.

Going to paint it using the same technique someone else mentioned earlier in a different thread. Silver base with candy apple red topcoat. If it doesn't turn out well, I can always go with a red metal flake..... :D

Royatl
09-13-2007, 08:36 AM
How many of you have purchased the DRM and Interceptor?

I've ordered two copies of each. Received one from Commonwealth; one still on backorder from Hobbylinc.

I've built the first set, but got interrupted in painting, so they are still kinda bare.

The Interceptor is great! It was wonderful to see Estes instructions actually recommending a symmetrical rounded/tapered airfoil again!

Rocket Doctor
09-13-2007, 05:11 PM
I've ordered two copies of each. Received one from Commonwealth; one still on backorder from Hobbylinc.

I've built the first set, but got interrupted in painting, so they are still kinda bare.

The Interceptor is great! It was wonderful to see Estes instructions actually recommending a symmetrical rounded/tapered airfoil again!



I haven't seen the instructions, but I did the ouyline for both the DRM and 1250 Interceptor.

I also did the outline on the 1350 Interceptor, but when in Penrose in April, it was changed into a novel, I complained, and I don't know what the final cut will end up being.

I have my prototypes but did,t finish them off because the final detailing and decals weren't available.

Royatl
09-13-2007, 05:21 PM
I haven't seen the instructions, but I did the ouyline for both the DRM and 1250 Interceptor.


Something I've been meaning to ask you. I just noticed this with the DRM and 1250, but now see that its been around since '06:

When did they suddenly decide to put the NAR logo on the back of the package? If their intent was to show support, then I say thanks, but it sure seems to go against the rest of their actions!

Tau Zero
09-13-2007, 05:23 PM
I picked up the DRM a couple of weeks ago.I'd been waiting for Der Red Max to show up in my local hobby shop, and earlier this week I picked up two of the four hanging up on the wall. :cool:


It's a good thing I'll be running the sound board for a wedding next weekend, which should pay for *most* of my DRM capital outlay... :o


Cheers,

barone
09-13-2007, 08:38 PM
I'd been waiting for Der Red Max to show up in my local hobby shop, and earlier this week I picked up two of the four hanging up on the wall. :cool:


It's a good thing I'll be running the sound board for a wedding next weekend, which should pay for *most* of my DRM capital outlay... :o


Cheers,
I would have picked up both at my local hobby shop but I thought I might save one for Dave. Besides, MAYBE Hobby Lobby might get them and I can use a 40% off coupon. :eek:

Speaking of saving one for Dave....Hobby Lobby has another D Region hanging on the rather sparse wall of Estes Rockets :D. Only one but with it's price tag, I think it's safe until the 40% off coupon rolls around again.

Rocket Doctor
09-13-2007, 09:59 PM
Something I've been meaning to ask you. I just noticed this with the DRM and 1250, but now see that its been around since '06:

When did they suddenly decide to put the NAR logo on the back of the package? If their intent was to show support, then I say thanks, but it sure seems to go against the rest of their actions!



Roy

That's news to me ????
After April 21,2007 I have no idea in which direction they are going.

Like I said before, when the forum was up and running Jan - April 2007, I brought up so many requests and concerns, was assured that things would change,BUT ????????

And, I'm not picking on Estes !!!!

Rocket Doctor
09-13-2007, 10:01 PM
DRM was scheduled to come out two months ago, the release schedule is way off.

tbzep
09-14-2007, 08:42 AM
DRM was scheduled to come out two months ago, the release schedule is way off.

They must have been using the Chinese calender. ;)

DaveR
09-14-2007, 09:58 AM
I would have picked up both at my local hobby shop but I thought I might save one for Dave. Besides, MAYBE Hobby Lobby might get them and I can use a 40% off coupon. :eek:

Speaking of saving one for Dave....Hobby Lobby has another D Region hanging on the rather sparse wall of Estes Rockets :D. Only one but with it's price tag, I think it's safe until the 40% off coupon rolls around again.

Today's payday, and if I'm correct, the 40% coupon should be coming up next week. Looks a trip to HL is in order for Monday. :D Thanks for thinking of me Don. :)

I haven't been by the "Hobby Shop" in a while now. As we discussed in a different thread, their rocket stock is usually lacking, looks like I missed out again. How old do you think those Aerotech reloads are? I'm guessing at least 8 years, they still have "Action Hobbies" price tags on them.

Rocket Doctor
09-14-2007, 01:26 PM
They must have been using the Chinese calender. ;)



Yup, that's correct.......must be the year of the snail !!!

DaveR
09-14-2007, 02:11 PM
Today's payday, and if I'm correct, the 40% coupon should be coming up next week. Looks a trip to HL is in order for Monday. :D Thanks for thinking of me Don. :)

I haven't been by the "Hobby Shop" in a while now. As we discussed in a different thread, their rocket stock is usually lacking, looks like I missed out again. How old do you think those Aerotech reloads are? I'm guessing at least 8 years, they still have "Action Hobbies" price tags on them.

Went by the ole "Hobby Shop" today at lunch. The one DRM was still hanging there waitng on me, thanks again for leaving one for me Don. :D :D
They also had a couple of Super Neons and 1 D-Region but at 34.99, I think I'll try my luck with the 40% off next week.

BTW, all the old Aerotech reloads are gone.......... Don???????

PaulK
09-18-2007, 06:09 PM
Hi Doc,

Just a suggestion - I really like it when you bring up topics to discuss, but I think it would be easier to follow if each discussion item in a separate thread. It is getting hard to find things in this thread.

I don't yet have the new interceptor or DRM, waiting for the LHS to get them in so I can get my club discount. Besides, last winter I spent twice as much on creating a K50 clone, and still have my original K50 that needs restoration. Hmm, would it be naughty of me to buy a new 1250 kit just for the decals?

moonzero2
09-18-2007, 10:54 PM
I went to Hobby Lobby today with my 40% off coupon and there were no new Interceptors there yet. :mad:

Ltvscout
09-18-2007, 10:57 PM
I went to Hobby Lobby today with my 40% off coupon and there were no new Interceptors there yet. :mad:
Were there any old ones? :D

Gus
09-19-2007, 02:44 AM
Anybody think the little Interceptor will show up in a Launchables kit?

I know they'd sell a trillion of em.

Rocket Doctor, how did Estes decide which kits to make Launchables? The BLU-97B and the SpaceShip One had a lot of parts and seemed like a heck of a value at WalMart prices.

ghrocketman
09-19-2007, 09:53 AM
Any news on when the Interceptor "E" is supposed to be available ?

Shreadvector
09-19-2007, 10:49 AM
Anybody think the little Interceptor will show up in a Launchables kit?

I know they'd sell a trillion of em.

Rocket Doctor, how did Estes decide which kits to make Launchables? The BLU-97B and the SpaceShip One had a lot of parts and seemed like a heck of a value at WalMart prices.

I'll bet one of the "entry criteria" is that the tube fits into the launchables package.......

Rocket Doctor
09-19-2007, 11:51 AM
Hi Doc,

Just a suggestion - I really like it when you bring up topics to discuss, but I think it would be easier to follow if each discussion item in a separate thread. It is getting hard to find things in this thread.

I don't yet have the new interceptor or DRM, waiting for the LHS to get them in so I can get my club discount. Besides, last winter I spent twice as much on creating a K50 clone, and still have my original K50 that needs restoration. Hmm, would it be naughty of me to buy a new 1250 kit just for the decals?
You can create a new thread under this heading.

We have had many discussions under many topics covering a variety of subjects.

From my information, the 1250 Interceptor and Der Red Max are on back order from the supplier, do to the popularity of both.

As far as the 1350 D/E Interceptor goes, I don't know.

You could contact customer service about purchasing decals, but, they may not have ant spare parts in stock because of the demand.

And scheduled are other new kits and bringbacks, only time will tell.

Hang in there, hopefully soon the kits you seek will arrive.

scigs30
09-19-2007, 12:24 PM
With the new order I hope Estes fixes the decal for the DRM.

Rocket Doctor
09-19-2007, 01:52 PM
With the new order I hope Estes fixes the decal for the DRM.




Do you mean the thiness of the decals?

Unless customers contact Estes via email, calls or letters, they have no clue.

And, any change isn't done overnight either, if a production run is scheduled, it will run, and because it is so popular, they will keep producing kits.

I also have heard that the shock cord is too short ass well.

I'm no longer involved with Estes, when the forum stopped, so did I.

foose4string
09-19-2007, 02:36 PM
Anybody think the little Interceptor will show up in a Launchables kit?

I know they'd sell a trillion of em.

Rocket Doctor, how did Estes decide which kits to make Launchables? The BLU-97B and the SpaceShip One had a lot of parts and seemed like a heck of a value at WalMart prices.

I'd be pretty shocked to the the 1250 in a launchable pack. DRM on the other hand, seems like it would fit the packaging criteria perfectly. I think they'd sell a gazillion of those too.

Rocket Doctor
09-19-2007, 03:13 PM
I'd be pretty shocked to the the 1250 in a launchable pack. DRM on the other hand, seems like it would fit the packaging criteria perfectly. I think they'd sell a gazillion of those too.


The launchables were geared for Wal-Mart, what WM wanted, WM got.
Sice WM sold so many launchables, in my opinion, they figure the market is saturated.

I doubt very much if you will see the DRM in a launchable, they are selling way too many and are out of stock for now.

I guess it surprised them as well.

As for the 1250 Interceptor, NO WAY would that end up as a launchable, for the same reason, much too popular and much too big.

I recently visited my local WM, two starter sets and the same A10 and C's.

scigs30
09-19-2007, 06:01 PM
Do you mean the thiness of the decals?

Unless customers contact Estes via email, calls or letters, they have no clue.

And, any change isn't done overnight either, if a production run is scheduled, it will run, and because it is so popular, they will keep producing kits.

I also have heard that the shock cord is too short ass well.

I'm no longer involved with Estes, when the forum stopped, so did I.
I am talking about the missing decals and the white shadow that appears on some of the decals. I did contact Christine and she forwarded my complaint.

Rocket Doctor
09-19-2007, 08:48 PM
I am talking about the missing decals and the white shadow that appears on some of the decals. I did contact Christine and she forwarded my complaint.




I hope that you call solves the issues that you have, give it time, and if not, call back again.

Rocket Doctor
09-19-2007, 10:52 PM
I hope that you call solves the issues that you have, give it time, and if not, call back again.


How do you like the reissue compared to your original?

Rocketking
09-20-2007, 02:35 AM
I suspect that the determining factor from the Estes' end Is the package size, but the determining factor from WM is whether that item easily fits their 'planogram' for the modeling aisle layout. Both concerns, one on top of the other, might prevent it from reaching the sales floor.

That & the fact that 'E's marketing department has already decided that the products cannot be too time consuming for the busy life of today's kids. With 10 hours each day of video gaming...

Rocket Doctor
09-20-2007, 05:58 AM
I suspect that the determining factor from the Estes' end Is the package size, but the determining factor from WM is whether that item easily fits their 'planogram' for the modeling aisle layout. Both concerns, one on top of the other, might prevent it from reaching the sales floor.

That & the fact that 'E's marketing department has already decided that the products cannot be too time consuming for the busy life of today's kids. With 10 hours each day of video gaming...


The last paragraph tells it all....
The Interceptor is too big, alittle complex and WM likes to stick with the basics.

In my opinion, I think that WM has cut back on their rocket offerings in many market areas.

WM still does not offer the motors that consumers want either.

ghrocketman
09-20-2007, 11:19 AM
Obviously if it does not fall into the WM "planogram", customers could not possibly want it.
The WM's in my area must have an ordering department staffed with numbskulls when it comes to rocket engines.
All they carry is the A10-PT(of which no on shelf model uses), the C6-7, and the C6-3; absolutely idiotic.

Rocket Doctor
09-20-2007, 11:25 AM
Obviously if it does not fall into the WM "planogram", customers could not possibly want it.
The WM's in my area must have an ordering department staffed with numbskulls when it comes to rocket engines.
All they carry is the A10-PT(of which no on shelf model uses), the C6-7, and the C6-3; absolutely idiotic.



WM is doing a reset right now for the holiday selling season.
Motors has always been a problem, and, I brought the issue up over and over again, same motors that don't sipport any of their kits on the shelf.

Same old, same old, and I don't think it's going to change anytime soon.

tfischer
09-20-2007, 12:11 PM
Just out of curiousity, are there a lot of folks here that depend on WM for motors? Heck I grew up in a town of 300, and there was a really nice hobby shop (tiny, but stocked EVERYTHING for trains, rockets, RC cars, etc) about 30 miles away (which was where the nearest WM was too...) I'd be inclined to support the local hobby shop -- in my experience the prices aren't significatly different, and sometimes even better...

-Tim

Rocket Doctor
09-20-2007, 01:20 PM
Hobby shops knowadays seem to be few and far bwtween, with many closing their doors.

There seem to be WM everwhere, unfortunately, they certainly don't carry many kits and especially motors.

foose4string
09-20-2007, 02:23 PM
I DO stock up on motors at WM. At 4.99, they are easily a buck and a half cheaper than the LHS, and in some instances more. Not to mention, the WM packs include a generous supply of wadding, where the hobby packs do not. No Hobby Lobby here, and certainly no 40% coupons! Michaels doesn't carry rocketry stuff either. Hobby Town is sky high on motor prices(pardon the pun), running between 7-8 dollars a pack for C motors!

My local WM was rearranging the shelves this past spring, and I didn't see any Estes product on the shelves. I asked the dept. mananger if they were going to quit selling rocketry items. She said, "heck no, that stuff moves like crazy." We are just rearranging right now. Check back in a week or so." Sure enough, the motors, RTF's, and a couple Launchable packs reappeared, just in a different spot. Oddly, I can never get B motors there, or any other Walmart I've ever been to(I've looked in at least a dozen, spanning 5 different states). They carry every flavor of C6, some A-8-3's, and the A10-3t. I can get the C6's, B6-4's at K-mart, and occasionally find them at Target, all around the same 4.99 price, in the same type of packaging.

I still buy motors from the hobby shops, especially since I use quite a few B6-6's, and occasionally need booster motors, D's, and other assorted delays. I think it works out on the end, although I think it would be great to get everything at WM prices!

tfischer
09-20-2007, 02:52 PM
Well you can't have it both ways, unfortunately-- you either get the slightly cheaper prices of WM, along with the pitiful selection, or you can support your LHS and have a good selection (the one I frequent stocks every motor Estes currently produces, along with some higher-powered ones that I haven't paid much attention to. They also have a decent selection of kits (Mainly Estes and Quest), and can special order anything in the Estes (and Quest?) catalog for 20% off the list price.

If even us die-hard hobbiests of old don't support the LHS, they don't have a prayer of staying open.

End of soapbox...

-Tim

Royatl
09-20-2007, 03:01 PM
I generally buy my 18mm motors using the 40%-50% coupon at Michael's, purchasing a Blast-Off Flight Pack, though I'll occasionally buy a pack of C6-3s and A10-3Ts at WM if they have them (and they do occasionally still have them) I buy D12 or E9 motors at Hobby Lobby, again when they have 40% coupons.

The only motors I've bought at Hobbytown USA in the past ten years have been the occasional Aerotech motor and a box of B6-0/B6-6's when it was plain that those were going the way of the dodo, despite Estes' claims to the contrary.

MKP
09-20-2007, 04:01 PM
I rely on Wal-Mart for motors because I have no local hobby shop. The nearest hobby shop is over 100 miles away. We used to have a hobby shop, but the owners were big on those weird card games like Magic, the Gathering. They'd have their game in the middle of business hours! When you walked in, they kicked you out, saying they're busy. Ha! No wonder they went out of business. They didn't have much rocket stuff anyway, trains and their card games.

Yeah, the Wal-Mart motor selection is pitiful, but luckily my field's big enough for an Alpha on a C6-7. :) When comes to C6-0's and 24MM I have to head north.

Rocket Doctor
09-20-2007, 04:04 PM
Check out the ed packs of motors listed under "education" from Estes, they assured me they had the B6-0/B's flight packs.

It's hit and miss for WM as to what they carry. The unfortunate aspect of a WM purchase is there is no one who knows the product. And, I have heard that those who have purchased from WM end up going to their local hobby shop for assistance.

I knew of a local hobby shop that was in business nearly 45 years and closed because of mass merchandisers. This hobby shop was very supportive of my 4H club and offered generous discounts .

tfischer
09-20-2007, 04:41 PM
I knew of a local hobby shop that was in business nearly 45 years and closed because of mass merchandisers.

Nah, they closed due to lack of customers/profit. It was the customer's choice to buy from the mass merchandisers, rather than support the store that carried a much broader product line and most likely had very knowledgable employees...

I have nothing against WM, although here in Minneapolis we're in Target country and they don't carry virtually any hobby stuff. I remember as a kid K-Mart used to have a lot of hobby stuff as well (not sure about rockets, but they sure did for plastic models, etc). I haven't been in a K-Mart for years though, can't stand the place anymore.

Although in our WM's, it's hard to find someone who a) speaks English well enough and b) givees a rip enough to speak to you when you ask them a question where to find something, much less ask for something like support for rocket supplies... Heck, I got literally SCREAMED at in Wal-Mart one time for walking back into their Christmas department before it was officially opened (and they had no signs to that effect or anything). They could have politely walked over and said "sorry but you're not supposed to be back here yet -- we should have had it marked better". Instead, they literally yelled across the department "HEY GET OUT OF HERE!"

-Tim

Rocket Doctor
09-20-2007, 05:29 PM
I would say that video games, computers, Ipods, cellphones and any other electronic device has put alot of businesses out of business.

I'm surprised that board games and plastic models have survived.

Instant gratification, who has time to sit down with a balsa based model rocket and build it these days, BAR's yes, we all know how much enjoyment we get from the hobby.

tfischer
09-20-2007, 05:36 PM
I have relatives (12 and under) that have virtually never played a board game. When they do "play", they make up their own rules and refuse to spend the time to play it right, even on the simplest of games.

Sadly, one of them in particular is very interested in science and space, and rocketry would make a great hobby for him, IF he could get around the instant gratification factor. These days, it seems kids would rather take a RTF rocket and load it up with fireworks to watch it explode, then actually take the time to build it up, and get it back in one piece, only to fly it again...

My boys (one 3, one newborn) will not grow up like that. I'm going to keep video games out of the house for as long as possible, and they will grow up knowing the simple pleasures I did.

-Tim

MKP
09-20-2007, 05:49 PM
Yeah, it sad. The difference between my generation and the next is amazing. I didn't think I was that old! Yeah, I played on the orignal Nintendo, but we spent a lot more time outside.
Rocket were a natural for me, my dad's teacher, he had them for classes and loves them himself.

Rocket Doctor
09-20-2007, 05:52 PM
I have relatives (12 and under) that have virtually never played a board game. When they do "play", they make up their own rules and refuse to spend the time to play it right, even on the simplest of games.

Sadly, one of them in particular is very interested in science and space, and rocketry would make a great hobby for him, IF he could get around the instant gratification factor. These days, it seems kids would rather take a RTF rocket and load it up with fireworks to watch it explode, then actually take the time to build it up, and get it back in one piece, only to fly it again...

My boys (one 3, one newborn) will not grow up like that. I'm going to keep video games out of the house for as long as possible, and they will grow up knowing the simple pleasures I did.

-Tim




GOD BLESS YOU on that, keep the electronics away and build, build and build again.........

barone
09-20-2007, 06:34 PM
Yeah, it sad. The difference between my generation and the next is amazing. I didn't think I was that old! Yeah, I played on the orignal Nintendo, but we spent a lot more time outside.
Rocket were a natural for me, my dad's teacher, he had them for classes and loves them himself.
Original Nintendo? Ever hear of Atari or Colicovision (sp?)? :rolleyes:

MKP
09-20-2007, 06:42 PM
Well, I'm only 22. I have played Atari. Can't say I've ever heard of a Colicovision. :)

barone
09-20-2007, 07:23 PM
Atari was a game system like Nintendo. It was followed by Collicovision(sp?) As far as I know, they were the first video game consoles (mid to late 70s). Games like Breakout, Pong, Centipede....nothing like what you get today....just mindless move the joystick and push the button.... :D