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View Full Version : Sandable Primer- Krylon Responds


Rocket Doctor
09-12-2007, 12:16 PM
I received a email reply regarding primers, here is what they had to say.

Dupli-Color would be a better line to go with, considering your particular needs. If you need a filling product that is sandable, then their Premium Sandable Filler Primer is a good choice.. It's available in Grey (FP-101)and Red Oxide (FP-102) . They also have their Premium Sandable Primer Surfacer that is good for filling surface cracks and inperfections. That line is available in White, Black, and the other two mentioned above.

Here's a link to the Dupli-Color website.
http://www.duplicolor.com/products/primer.html

Now these products are intended primarily for metal, so I can't say for sure if they will work for the other surfaces you need to coat,but they can tell you for sure.

Eric

The above messade was from Krylom customer service.

tbzep
09-12-2007, 02:10 PM
The upside to that is Wally World carries Dupli-Color in their automotive dept. It seems like there's a Wally World in almost every town these days. The downside is that Dupli-Color is pretty expensive compared to the cheap lacquer primer I used to get.

Royatl
09-12-2007, 03:47 PM
They also have their Premium Sandable Primer Surfacer that is good for filling surface cracks and inperfections. That line is available in White, Black, and the other two mentioned above.

Here's a link to the Dupli-Color website.
http://www.duplicolor.com/products/primer.html



That's good to know. I'll try to find a can to see if that is equivalent to Plastikote's Spot Filler.

Thanks for the research, Ken!

Doug Sams
09-12-2007, 05:09 PM
Dupli-Color would be a better line to go with...Seeing such an overt endorsement of another brand made me wonder. So I went to Dupli-Color's website, and sure enough, they're a division of Sherwin-Williams just like Krylon. The Krylon guys are plugging their sister brand.

There's an old saying in business that everything shrinks to 3 key players, so I suspect lots of the paint brands we know can be traced back to just few "mother" companies. I know that Zinsser is a sister brand to Rust-Oleum, Boyd's is a Testor's product, and Aero-Gloss is a Midwest brand.

Doug

barone
09-12-2007, 05:17 PM
Just so happens I went looking at primer today in some auto parts stores. The cheapest Dupli-Color Filler Primer I saw was $4.64 a can. My local Wal-Mart has chosen to stop stocking automotive paints. So, I guess I'm going to stick with the Kilnz.

Royatl
09-12-2007, 05:45 PM
Seeing such an overt endorsement of another brand made me wonder. So I went to Dupli-Color's website, and sure enough, they're a division of Sherwin-Williams just like Krylon. The Krylon guys are plugging their sister brand.

Doug

I remember from way back in 1990, Ron Schultz (former owner of LOC/Precision) put out a video tape of him building an Onyx. He specifically recommended Sherwin-Williams spray primer and paint, then in some computer forum later he mentioned that the Wal-Mart store brand paint was the same stuff. At that time, Krylon was owned by Bordens, I think. I remember SW buying them, but I didn't know they also had Dupli-Color.

snaquin
09-12-2007, 06:28 PM
Roy, I remember that video .....

I use the Brite Touch BT49 Gray Primer from Pep Boys. It's made by Dupli-Color and it's about a buck a can less expensive from the Dupli-Color branded stuff. I moved over to this last summer as I was having problems with the Kilz and Krylon drying in the frequent Gulf Coast humidity we have here in Southern Louisiana.

I've noticed they carry it in a Gray and a Red but I've never seen it in White. I wish it came in White so I could spray fluorescent top coats directly over it without having to use a white paint first.

.

SEL
09-12-2007, 07:57 PM
Roy, I remember that video .....

I use the Brite Touch BT49 Gray Primer from Pep Boys. It's made by Dupli-Color and it's about a buck a can less expensive from the Dupli-Color branded stuff. I moved over to this last summer as I was having problems with the Kilz and Krylon drying in the frequent Gulf Coast humidity we have here in Southern Louisiana.

I've noticed they carry it in a Gray and a Red but I've never seen it in White. I wish it came in White so I could spray fluorescent top coats directly over it without having to use a white paint first.

.

I've had good luck with Krylon white primer under flourescent paints even back east with fairly high humidity. Probably not as bad as LA though.
On a side note, I had a NCR Orbit that I flew in the white prime only on a Vulcan E60 something-or-other. It was late afternoon, and that rocket *glowed* all the way up and back. Really neat to watch - decent altitude too. Steve- you wouldn't happen to have the numbers to run for a V. E60, would you? I'd be curious to get an estimate on the altitude.

Sean

Solomoriah
09-12-2007, 08:29 PM
Just so happens I went looking at primer today in some auto parts stores. The cheapest Dupli-Color Filler Primer I saw was $4.64 a can. My local Wal-Mart has chosen to stop stocking automotive paints. So, I guess I'm going to stick with the Kilnz.
Have you TRIED the ColorPlace primer? It's less than a buck... try it on a cheap model. Just remember, you do need to apply it a bit heavier than Kilz since the latter lays down a thicker coat. For that matter, Kilz sells two grades of primer, one in the over-$3 price range and one just a bit more than $2 a can. I haven't tried the lower-priced Kilz primer since I discovered Miracal before Wal-Mart started carrying it.

Rocket Doctor
09-13-2007, 03:55 AM
That's good to know. I'll try to find a can to see if that is equivalent to Plastikote's Spot Filler.

Thanks for the research, Ken!




Roy

And, as you noticed, Krylon didn't mention anything about their brand of primers not being sandable, and I asked.

And, for those who think because Krylon is mentioned it;s an endorsement, it's not, just the fact alot of us use Krylon.

And, like I have mentioned over and over again. rougepunk would be the guy to PM and find out his painting techniques.

F YI If you did research into many products, and who manufactured them, you would be amazed about the results.

Many, many years ago, my father worked in an orange juice packing plant in California, they packed for 13 different brands, all from the same source.

tbzep
09-13-2007, 07:32 AM
Yep. That's like the different brands of gasoline. All the different companies fill their trucks from the same tanks at the refinery. The only difference is their company's additives. It's funny how people swear that Company X's gas is crap and Company Y's is the best ever, when it's the exact same fuel. To take it a step farther, the trucks that deliver the gas often deliver to stations sporting different company logos on the same run. ;)

Rocket Doctor
09-13-2007, 08:22 AM
Yep. That's like the different brands of gasoline. All the different companies fill their trucks from the same tanks at the refinery. The only difference is their company's additives. It's funny how people swear that Company X's gas is crap and Company Y's is the best ever, when it's the exact same fuel. To take it a step farther, the trucks that deliver the gas often deliver to stations sporting different company logos on the same run. ;)


WOW Isn't that the truth.
I've seen in PA a company (gasolinr deliver named pipeline petroleum) delivering to all gas stations, and, the delivery truck was unbranded.

It's like so called generic grocery store brands, do you think they all have their own production faculities? That would not be feasible, just added business for the brand companies to pick up some added business.

Royatl
09-13-2007, 08:35 AM
It's like so called generic grocery store brands, do you think they all have their own production faculities? That would not be feasible, just added business for the brand companies to pick up some added business.

Some of you may remember the craze about 14 years ago around a certain national brand of devil's food cake cookie which was extremely low in fat. When it occurred, there were shortages all over the country. When someone pointed out that store brands of devil's food cake cookie were almost as low in fat, people found there were already shortages of those store brands!

That's because the same factory was making them all. The big national brand did indeed have less fat than the generics (0.5 gm vs 0.75 gm, so the national brand could qualify as "fat-free"), but other than that they were the same.

Also, did you know that for a long time, many store brand soft drinks were made by (or their syrups were supplied by) Royal Crown Cola in Columbus, GA? I think even some Shasta flavors came from RC.

Doug Sams
09-13-2007, 10:25 AM
Also, did you know that for a long time, many store brand soft drinks were made by (or their syrups were supplied by) Royal Crown Cola in Columbus, GA? I think even some Shasta flavors came from RC. I was tempted to talk about soda, but decided not to...then I saw Roy's post :)

I worked a couple summers making soda pop at the Coca-Cola bottling plant in Elizabethtown, Kentucky. We ran cans _and_ bottles, including throwaways and returnables. Besides the Coke branded products, we did flavors for our local route business and also private labelling for the Kroger store brands.

Our local flavor brand was Sun-Rise. The Coke plant had a zillion Sun-Rise bottles, and for all the local vending machines using returnable bottles, we put grape and orange soda in them and provided that to complement the Coke, Sprite, Fresca, etc, that we also supplied for those machines.

What caught me totally by surprise was that we were using Fanta brand mixes to put in the Sun-Rise bottles. After a while it made sense - they're just flavors and not mainline branded products - plus, big Coke (as we called them, corporate in Atlanta in reality) owned the Fanta line and thus was supplying the mixes for us alongside the Coke, Sprite and Mello-Yellow syrups.

We also put Fanta in the Kroger store brand bottles for a while, then switched to Kroger supplied mixes at a later date.

...

With the huge rise in popularity of highly-caffeinated drinks, many with herbal additives for extra jitters :) , I'm dissapointed the Ale-8-One brand hasn't enjoyed the same growth. It's a clear soda made in the Lexington, KY area IIRC. Ale-8-One = A late one - ie, a drink for all-nighters as when behind the 8-ball studying for exams. This may well have been the original of the so-called energy drinks.

Doug

Rocket Doctor
09-13-2007, 10:40 AM
Isn't just amazing though.

I guess it is drilled into our heads about brands, being much better, and we pay more for them, so, if one particular product is coming from the same plant, why are we all paying so much?

I think if we did a search of products, we would be amazed of our results.

With all the corporate buyouts, both publicized and those not, makes you wonder.

How about fast food establishments, who owns them, makes you wonder at the end of the day.

pantherjon
09-13-2007, 10:54 AM
Funny TBZep should mention gas tankers...lol..I drive one..And, yep. it ALL comes from the same hose at the loading facility..You can hear the air actuated nozzles injecting the different additives depending on 'brand' or un-branded gasoline it is..Also, there is a practice(at least I see it here in the Savannah,GA market) where the gas in the underground tanks at a gas station MAY not be the 'brand' that is on the sign..There is one chain here(Parker Oil Co) which will send us their 'supplier' list of what stations get what gas, branded or unbranded..In some cases, the branded stores(Amoco, Chevron) we will be instructed to deliver UNbranded gas to..Sometimes the opposite is true, an unbranded store will get branded gas..Depends on which is cheaper wholesale..There is also a Sunoco station we deliver to where we have NEVER taken branded Sunoco gas to!:eek: Sign out front says Sunoco, but that aint what's in their tanks!

Fast food..Well PepsiCo owns KFC, Taco Bell and Pizza Hut-maybe some others...

Rocket Doctor
09-13-2007, 12:25 PM
Funny TBZep should mention gas tankers...lol..I drive one..And, yep. it ALL comes from the same hose at the loading facility..You can hear the air actuated nozzles injecting the different additives depending on 'brand' or un-branded gasoline it is..Also, there is a practice(at least I see it here in the Savannah,GA market) where the gas in the underground tanks at a gas station MAY not be the 'brand' that is on the sign..There is one chain here(Parker Oil Co) which will send us their 'supplier' list of what stations get what gas, branded or unbranded..In some cases, the branded stores(Amoco, Chevron) we will be instructed to deliver UNbranded gas to..Sometimes the opposite is true, an unbranded store will get branded gas..Depends on which is cheaper wholesale..There is also a Sunoco station we deliver to where we have NEVER taken branded Sunoco gas to!:eek: Sign out front says Sunoco, but that aint what's in their tanks!

Fast food..Well PepsiCo owns KFC, Taco Bell and Pizza Hut-maybe some others...


And here's the proof ,from a driver that's in the know...
And if you go into a pizza hut and ask for a Coke, the'll ask you if {epsi is OK..

Thanks for sharing this with us.

tbzep
09-13-2007, 03:05 PM
Funny TBZep should mention gas tankers...lol..I drive one..And, yep. it ALL comes from the same hose at the loading facility..You can hear the air actuated nozzles injecting the different additives depending on 'brand' or un-branded gasoline it is..Also, there is a practice(at least I see it here in the Savannah,GA market) where the gas in the underground tanks at a gas station MAY not be the 'brand' that is on the sign..There is one chain here(Parker Oil Co) which will send us their 'supplier' list of what stations get what gas, branded or unbranded..In some cases, the branded stores(Amoco, Chevron) we will be instructed to deliver UNbranded gas to..Sometimes the opposite is true, an unbranded store will get branded gas..Depends on which is cheaper wholesale..There is also a Sunoco station we deliver to where we have NEVER taken branded Sunoco gas to!:eek: Sign out front says Sunoco, but that aint what's in their tanks!

Fast food..Well PepsiCo owns KFC, Taco Bell and Pizza Hut-maybe some others...

It gets even better. All the big oil companies float their tankers into the harbor and offload into a single pipeline that sends it out to the various refineries. Stuff that comes out of a Texaco oil rig may end up at a BP or Exxon-Mobil refinery and vice versa.

Rocket Doctor
09-13-2007, 04:05 PM
It gets even better. All the big oil companies float their tankers into the harbor and offload into a single pipeline that sends it out to the various refineries. Stuff that comes out of a Texaco oil rig may end up at a BP or Exxon-Mobil refinery and vice versa.


Is it also true that they leave the tankers off shore without unloading to keep the prices up?

snaquin
09-13-2007, 10:55 PM
I've had good luck with Krylon white primer under flourescent paints even back east with fairly high humidity. Probably not as bad as LA though.
On a side note, I had a NCR Orbit that I flew in the white prime only on a Vulcan E60 something-or-other. It was late afternoon, and that rocket *glowed* all the way up and back. Really neat to watch - decent altitude too. Steve- you wouldn't happen to have the numbers to run for a V. E60, would you? I'd be curious to get an estimate on the altitude.

Sean

Sean,

I looked for a Vulcan E60 file but couldn't find it. I had the NCR Orbit and really liked that rocket too. Last flights I had on mine were on Crown E30's. That rocket flew great on E motors.

I had a fin pattern for the NCR Orbit but while looking for it I turned up the NCR Hypersonic 1800 fin pattern instead. If I can find my pattern I can sim it for you. I remember it had a good bit of fin span for a short rocket. I could probably get a decent estimate with PML IO fins and I may try that unless someone has an actual pattern they can post?

.

pantherjon
09-13-2007, 11:08 PM
Is it also true that they leave the tankers off shore without unloading to keep the prices up?
Wouldn't surprise me..I do know that sometimes the tanker will loiter out at sea in the hopes that the price goes up before reaching dock for unloading..We had one tanker about 6 months ago that claimed one of their crew had a very bad contagious infection..So, of course, they wouldn't let them dock..Well, two days later, after the price went up twice for like $.08/gallon each time, the 'sick' crewman was well...So, 500,000 barrels and an extra $.16/GALLON - quite a profit..BTW 1 barrel equals 55 gallons..

tbzep
09-14-2007, 07:36 AM
I think the crude oil barrel is 42 gallons. I know it's less than the standard 55 gallon drum but I'm not positive on the exact number.

pantherjon
09-14-2007, 08:37 AM
I think the crude oil barrel is 42 gallons. I know it's less than the standard 55 gallon drum but I'm not positive on the exact number.
You're correct, crude is the 42 gallon barrel..we don't have a 'refinery' here..The stuff that comes in is 'raw' gas(I guess thats what you would call it, it has already been 'refined' from crude) and I was told they use the 55 gallon/barrel measurements for those shipments..Whether that is correct or not, I don't know-just what I have been told.. :confused:

But anyways...back on topic..Found some of the Dupli-Color fill primer at my local Wal*Mart..$4.84/can!:eek: MAY try it one day for that "SPECIAL" rocket..But, for now, will stick to either Color Place @ $0.96/can or Miracal from Dollar General @ $1/can..

Solomoriah
09-14-2007, 09:16 AM
But, for now, will stick to either Color Place @ $0.96/can or Miracal from Dollar General @ $1/can..
A man after my own heart... cheap. :D

SEL
09-14-2007, 10:39 AM
Sean,

I looked for a Vulcan E60 file but couldn't find it. I had the NCR Orbit and really liked that rocket too. Last flights I had on mine were on Crown E30's. That rocket flew great on E motors.

I had a fin pattern for the NCR Orbit but while looking for it I turned up the NCR Hypersonic 1800 fin pattern instead. If I can find my pattern I can sim it for you. I remember it had a good bit of fin span for a short rocket. I could probably get a decent estimate with PML IO fins and I may try that unless someone has an actual pattern they can post?

.

Steve -

I have the Orbit fin pattern - I'll send it off to you when I get back home. You're right, it's pretyy big for thesize of the rocket. I'd love a copy of the 1800 fin pattern if you wouldn't mind.

Thanks,

Sean

Rocket Doctor
09-14-2007, 12:33 PM
A man after my own heart... cheap. :D


Just like everything else, the cheap-o paint is probably made by the "brand" company, and, because we have been "branded" with "brands", we buy the more expensive stuff.

Someone should do a search into who makes what, and, we all will be greatly surprised.

Solomoriah
09-14-2007, 03:24 PM
I'm almost certain that Wal-Mart ColorPlace and Dollar General Miracal are the same thing. Of course, both are store brands. I'm also certain that neither is the same as either Kilz or Krylon; both of the latter lay down a much thicker coat (which I don't like).

Ltvscout
09-14-2007, 03:30 PM
Steve -

I have the Orbit fin pattern - I'll send it off to you when I get back home. You're right, it's pretyy big for thesize of the rocket. I'd love a copy of the 1800 fin pattern if you wouldn't mind.

Thanks,

Sean
Please send both patterns to me as well for YORP. Thanks.

ghrocketman
09-14-2007, 03:44 PM
There is so much Brandin' going on in this thread, I feel like I'm in a Western Movie. :p

Seriously though, the best primer one can get is a gallon of automotive lacquer primer in the color of your choice (Red, Black, Grey, or White) and shoot it with an airbrush.
Volume-for-volume it is probably cheaper than even the $.97 junk-mart spray-kans, plus it will give much better application.

Pactra Prep is even better, but good luck finding any....it has been OOP for about 10 years.

scigs30
09-24-2007, 09:14 PM
Well I tried my new Duplicolor white sand-able primer and I was not too happy. I think I will just stick to what works for me. I was using Krylon grey primer with good success, but I read that white is better for light finishes. The white Krylon primer does not sand well and was a pain in the butt. The Duplicolor white is heavy and requires a lot of sanding, something I don't like to do. I can see where this can be handy if you like filling grain and grooves with primer vs using sealer. I bet if you applied 3 or 4 coats of Duplicolor with sanding, you would fill most imperfections. Once again that would require a lot of sanding. Today I sprayed my sandpiper with 2 coats of grey Krylon primer and it looks smooth. I let the grey dry for 1 hour and sanded smooth. I am letting it dry one more hour then I will lightly sand to smooth and apply one coat of flat white. I will let this dry for 24 hours then spray my 1 to 2 coats Krylon orange. This process is easier for me and requires a lot less sanding. Even though it sounds like a lot of paint, it is still lighter than the sand-able primer. I will post pictures of my primed Sandpiper in the projects section.

Rocket Doctor
09-24-2007, 09:22 PM
Thanks for the feedback, at least you gave it a try and your results weren't as you expected.
I guess through trial and error, we all can find a workable prep method.

Solomoriah
09-24-2007, 09:37 PM
Hey, if you don't like thick primer, try the Wal-Mart stuff. It does take several coats, but it sands nice.

scigs30
09-24-2007, 10:12 PM
Hey, if you don't like thick primer, try the Wal-Mart stuff. It does take several coats, but it sands nice.

From what it looks like, Different Wal Marts carry there own Cheap brand of paint. My walmarts in S. Calif. carry Colorplace or something like that. I did try it because it is .99 cents, but when I applied my Krylon topcoat the next day it caused hazing.

Solomoriah
09-24-2007, 10:30 PM
Hmm. I've had a lot of problems with Krylon clearcoat doing that to a variety of paints. I just don't use Krylon for anything anymore... Wal-Mart ColorPlace clearcoat works pretty well, or I just use Future (which really works great, actually, but it's getting hard to find).

ScaleNut
09-30-2007, 10:02 AM
the hazing is most likely whats know as "blushing".

When spraying during humid conditions, air from the spray can and solvent evaporation lowers the substrate temperature below the dew point, causing moisture in the air to condense in or on the paint film.

one way to help combat this effect is to warm the spraycan before painting.

krylon seems to be more sensitive to blushing ,so spraying under the right conditions is a little more important to get good results.

scigs30
09-30-2007, 03:45 PM
the hazing is most likely whats know as "blushing".

When spraying during humid conditions, air from the spray can and solvent evaporation lowers the substrate temperature below the dew point, causing moisture in the air to condense in or on the paint film.

one way to help combat this effect is to warm the spraycan before painting.

krylon seems to be more sensitive to blushing ,so spraying under the right conditions is a little more important to get good results.
Sorry wrong terminology I meant crazing, cracking of the paint.