Estes Renegage - My first 2 stage! Pics!

[MonsterRocket]

Been wanting to do a 2 stage rocket since I was a kid so I picked up an Estes Renegade.

http://www.deathstalkerstudios.com/rockets/ren1.jpg

First launch was on a C6-0/B6-4. Awesome flight!

http://www.deathstalkerstudios.com/rockets/ren2.jpg

http://www.deathstalkerstudios.com/rockets/ren3.jpg


Second flight was a C6-0/C6-5 combo. Um... not quite as good as the first flight.

http://www.deathstalkerstudios.com/rockets/ren4.jpg

http://www.deathstalkerstudios.com/rockets/ren5.jpg

http://www.deathstalkerstudios.com/rockets/ren6.jpg

http://www.deathstalkerstudios.com/rockets/ren7.jpg

[K.M.Knox]

Oh no! Any idea what went wrong, looks like you found quite a few parts after that explosion... Did it all occur at ignition of the second stage? Almost like there was a gap for the firing inferno to escape into the tube and start the fatal chain of events... Hope your planning on rebuilding it, I have been meaning to pick one of those up, I really like the looks.

[MKP]

OUCH! Good grief, do you know what happened? Sheesh.

I just built a Renegade, but it has yet to fly. Did it fly apart like that at separation or did the upper stage ignite then boom? You might want to talk to Estes about that one.

EDIT: Ha ha, Posted just before I did. But the questions still stand, double time, lol...

[MonsterRocket]

It happened after the second engine ignited. The booster fell away and was recovered without a scratch (but was later broken when my friend kicked it by accident Haha).

[CPMcGraw]

May your missiles fly true and your CATO's be spectacular!! :D

I'd say his C6-5 motor took your advice literally, Kurt. That's a CATO, and that first aftermath shot would be a good one to show Estes. Ought to be able to get a replacement model out of that image.

[Rocket Doctor]

I'd say his C6-5 motor took your advice literally, Kurt. That's a CATO, and that first aftermath shot would be a good one to show Estes. Ought to be able to get a replacement model out of that image.


If the motor was the cause, contact Estes customer service 1-800-525-7561 X 216 and speak to Christine about it.
NOTE Estes is back on their regular hours.

Also be aware that the booster is heavy and doesn't tumble like other boosters do.

What did you think about the instructions? I went into alot of detail showing sub assemblies to help out in the construction process.

Let us know about you request for a replacement.

Great photos !!!!

[K.M.Knox]

That would have really been spectacular if it was at ground level just off the pad! Real bummer though to see a rocket come back in pieces, unless of course it is the CATO. Hopefully Estes will send you one in replacement... Keep us informed.

[cas2047]

Thats a real shame. That was a great looking rocket.

Id bet Estes will make good on this for you. Just email them with the accident report and cato pic.

[dwmzmm]

Every Renegade I've seen flown has had a mishap one way or another. Just last Saturday
(September 8th) here at Rushing Park, Katy, TX, one of our rocketeer flew his Renegade
(first flight) and sure enough, almost everything went wrong with it (at liftoff, the C6-0
barely got it vertical; went almost horizontal immediately. Then, at staging, the upper stage
engine mount assembly came loose and went further forward into the upper stage body tube while the upper stage engine somehow removed itself during flight.).

[dwmzmm]

Thats a real shame. That was a great looking rocket.

Id bet Estes will make good on this for you. Just email them with the accident report and cato pic.

Also make sure you fill out a MESS report on that engine...

[barone]

Also make sure you fill out a MESS report on that engine...
Here's the link.....

http://www.nar.org/NARmessform.html

[dwmzmm]

Here's the link.....

http://www.nar.org/NARmessform.html

Thanks, barone; I was a little too "lazy" to look for and post that.... ;)

[Mikus]

Every Renegade I've seen flown has had a mishap one way or another. Just last Saturday (September 8th) here at Rushing Park, Katy, TX, one of our rocketeer flew his Renegade (first flight) and sure enough, almost everything went wrong with it (at liftoff, the C6-0 barely got it vertical; went almost horizontal immediately. Then, at staging, the upper stage engine mount assembly came loose and went further forward into the upper stage body tube while the upper stage engine somehow removed itself during flight.).


Howdy.

Yup, that would be mine. It was the ugliest flight I've ever had but it was my first staged flight (and these were my 1st of any flights in about 20 years) so it was a good learning experience. The booster was ok except the bird arced back over the parking lot and came down on asphalt - broke off a fin and took a chunk out of another one.

The upper stage motor mount forward centering ring cracked in half and the motor mount ended up about 6-8" up into the body of the upper stage. I think the friction-fit upper motor blew itself out on the ejection charge, I'm surprised the chute deployed at all.

I'm either going to take the upper stage and install a proper mount (I always hated friction-fit) and resign it to a single-stage bird or maybe ripoff the bottom 2 fins on the booster and retry it that way, I haven't really decided since the kit was basically a reintroduction-to-the-hobby kit. I still have an old Hercules and Comanche 3 to build so I don't have to fly the Renegade again and maybe a different design will work better, that booster is awfully heavy.

You didn't mention my 1st cluster flight (a Thunderstar) worked much better.... :)

Mike

[Rocket Doctor]

Howdy.

Yup, that would be mine. It was the ugliest flight I've ever had but it was my first staged flight (and these were my 1st of any flights in about 20 years) so it was a good learning experience. The booster was ok except the bird arced back over the parking lot and came down on asphalt - broke off a fin and took a chunk out of another one.

The upper stage motor mount forward centering ring cracked in half and the motor mount ended up about 6-8" up into the body of the upper stage. I think the friction-fit upper motor blew itself out on the ejection charge, I'm surprised the chute deployed at all.

I'm either going to take the upper stage and install a proper mount (I always hated friction-fit) and resign it to a single-stage bird or maybe ripoff the bottom 2 fins on the booster and retry it that way, I haven't really decided since the kit was basically a reintroduction-to-the-hobby kit. I still have an old Hercules and Comanche 3 to build so I don't have to fly the Renegade again and maybe a different design will work better, that booster is awfully heavy.

You didn't mention my 1st cluster flight (a Thunderstar) worked much better.... :)

Mike


Contact Estes for a replacement.
Check you assembly techniques and use carpenters glue, or gorilla glue or epoxy.

The assembly instruction were made in detail (I know !!!).

The booster is heavy and doesn't tumble down.

Have you tried the 36 D Squared two D cluster yet. Read the reviews on this one.

Let us know how you make out with your replacement request.

[Doug Sams]

Contact Estes for a replacement.The booster is heavy and doesn't tumble down. (snip) Let us know how you make out with your replacement request.This bugs me. Staging is already risky enough without Estes making self-destructing boosters. They need to be lightweight and unstable, and even then, you're gonna get some broken fins, but at least they won't make craters when they hit :)

The Renegade booster looks like it will come in stable instead of tumbling. And the old Mongoose booster would accordion itself on the first flight. In both cases, the fins are too far aft thus increasing the booster stability. The Mongoose had a heavy coupler forward ensuring stability. And the Renegade booster's forward reaching outboards look like they'd make it stable, too.

Booster fins are supposed to have minimal sweep and little or no set back so that the booster is unstable and tumbles in. Have they forgotten that in Penrose?

Doug

PS: This booster tumbes :)
http://www.squirrel-works.com/catalog/tuber/tuber.html

[tfischer]

Getting way off topic here, but my most memorable (and funny, in retrospect) booster error came in a flight back when I was in college, experienceing a brief BAR moment for a few weeks. I built a 2-stager (can't remember the name), and a few great flights with it. Then one time, we shot it up, and the second stage didn't ignite. The rocket coasted up to it's (much lower than desired) apogee, did a U-turn, and lawn-darted toward the ground. At about 50' from crash, the second stage ignited, pile-driving the poor upper-stage and it's PNC several inches into the ground, and making the rocket daisy-out like a plugged gun in a Waner Bros. cartoon...

You probably guessed my error by now-- in my haste, I reversed the C6-0 and C6-7 engines. So the booster went up, and mostly back down on the C6-7, then ejected (and ignited) the upper stage. It's really funny in retrospect, but I was really mad at the time because that was a good flyer for me...

Around the same time, I launched a different 2-stager, and it weathercocked almost horizontally in the wind before lighing the upper stage, which proceeded to take off horizontally like a jet, and I never saw it again... I still have the boosters for both rockets, though!

I've never had much luck with staging in general. I lost my Comanche III on its first flight because I insisted on flying it in its max configuration on a somewhat cloudy day. Even with about 10 spotters we never did see the upper stage! (and you guessed it, I still have the two lower ones...)

-Tim

[Rocket Doctor]

The best way to get ACTION is for cunsumers to COMPLAIN !!!

Contact the marketing manager.

I brought up the fact about the booster when I was outlining the instructions. You can only do so much.

Out of the loop now, so, without input, I don't know what to tell you.

All I can say is, I tried .........

[Royatl]

This bugs me. Staging is already risky enough without Estes making self-destructing boosters. They need to be lightweight and unstable, and even then, you're gonna get some broken fins, but at least they won't make craters when they hit :)

The Renegade booster looks like it will come in stable instead of tumbling. And the old Mongoose booster would accordion itself on the first flight. In both cases, the fins are too far aft thus increasing the booster stability. The Mongoose had a heavy coupler forward ensuring stability. And the Renegade booster's forward reaching outboards look like they'd make it stable, too.


They ARE stable. We had a guy come out to our February launch, flew his Renegade three times, the first two times the booster buried itself about 2" in the ground. The third flight we had him point it away, but the wind pushed it so that it went back out over the crowd, and the booster poked a hole in our Veep's van's taillight. At that point, the Renegade joined the Estes/cox X15 as banned rockets at our launches.

[Rocket Doctor]

They ARE stable. We had a guy come out to our February launch, flew his Renegade three times, the first two times the booster buried itself about 2" in the ground. The third flight we had him point it away, but the wind pushed it so that it went back out over the crowd, and the booster poked a hole in our Veep's van's taillight. At that point, the Renegade joined the Estes/cox X15 as banned rockets at our launches.


I would strongly suggest that if you have a renegade (two stage) complain to Estes, either email them, contact the marketing manager, or call customer service 1-800-525-7561 X 216

[dwmzmm]

Not to ruffle any feathers here, but from my standpoint, I wouldn't want to even attempt
to fly a Renegade model staged; just from looking at it, it appears to be asking for trouble.
As I've said before, every Renegade model I've seen flown here in far west Houston has had
a failure in some shape, form or fashion.

Hey Mike, it wasn't my intention to leave out the excellent Thunderstar flight; guess I forgot
about it as I couldn't get any pictures due to my camera's memory reaching capacity. It
certainly was a textbook flight. BTW, welcome to the Ye Old Rocket Forum!!!

[Doug Sams]

Not to ruffle any feathers here, but from my standpoint, I wouldn't want to even attempt to fly a Renegade model staged; just from looking at it, it appears to be asking for trouble. As I've said before, every Renegade model I've seen flown here in far west Houston has had a failure in some shape, form or fashion. Dave,
Is there a common denominator? It does look kinda heavy. I imagine with an 18mm booster, it just crawls off the rod making it very prone to weather cocking. Here's yet another Estes kit begging for more motor...a motor which Estes already makes.

Doug

[dwmzmm]

Dave,
Is there a common denominator? It does look kinda heavy. I imagine with an 18mm booster, it just crawls off the rod making it very prone to weather cocking. Here's yet another Estes kit begging for more motor...a motor which Estes already makes.

Doug

I think I already mentioned in one of the other rocketry forums (probably the Yahoo! Groups) that the Renegade's first stage should be modified to use a D12-0 booster. The
D12-0 will certainly get it up faster and more vertical than the C6-0 would. Mike's launch
at Rushing Park revealed quite a bit of rod whip during the trek off the pad (probably
wouldn't hurt to use a 3/16" lugs/rod, too). But those pods on the first stage, well, they
just look like they're going to get busted each time it flies. But don't get me wrong, I think
the Renegade is a cool looking model rocket :) .

[Rocket Doctor]

I think I already mentioned in one of the other rocketry forums (probably the Yahoo! Groups) that the Renegade's first stage should be modified to use a D12-0 booster. The
D12-0 will certainly get it up faster and more vertical than the C6-0 would. Mike's launch
at Rushing Park revealed quite a bit of rod whip during the trek off the pad (probably
wouldn't hurt to use a 3/16" lugs/rod, too). But those pods on the first stage, well, they
just look like they're going to get busted each time it flies. But don't get me wrong, I think
the Renegade is a cool looking model rocket :) .


With any modifications, especiallu using "D" booster motors, make sure to check the balance so it's not bottom heavy.

The booster is heavy enough without adding a larger motor.

[pantherjon]

Couldn't you use an 18mm RMS 'D' load and just leave out the delay charge for the booster?

Nevermind..looking at the RMS it wouldn't work the e-charge is in a cap that protrudes, don't think there would be room for it

[Mikus]

It could have been the construction techniques, I was a bit rusty there. The assembly instruction were clear and I didn't have to vary any. I used Elmer's Glue-All so that could have contributed - I need to learn to build with epoxy anyway.

I did pick up a 36D on clearance the other day. I'm not crazy about it but figured I could bash it if nothing else and $14 was too good to pass up.

Thanks for the advice. :)

Contact Estes for a replacement.
Check you assembly techniques and use carpenters glue, or gorilla glue or epoxy.

The assembly instruction were made in detail (I know !!!).

The booster is heavy and doesn't tumble down.

Have you tried the 36 D Squared two D cluster yet. Read the reviews on this one.

Let us know how you make out with your replacement request.

[Mikus]

That was one of my fears so I took a Sharpie and put lines on the top & bottom of my 0 delay engines. I'm thinking that will help me from making that mistake.

I'm all ears for a better approach tho. :D

You probably guessed my error by now-- in my haste, I reversed the C6-0 and C6-7 engines. So the booster went up, and mostly back down on the C6-7, then ejected (and ignited) the upper stage.

-Tim

[Mikus]

:D Heh heh, don't sweat it - just some friendly teasing. Thanks this forum is awesome, I'm learning so much.

What if you ripped off the 2 fins on the underside of the booster and moved the fin on the top to the bottom? Then instead of a 5 fin booster, you have a 3 fin booster with most of the weight on one side of the body.

The idea being that the 3 fins on the booster, counter the 3 on the sustainer (is that the right word?) and yet at staging, the booster is unstable enough to tumble and 2 fins lighter.

Would that work? It would still be an awfully cool looking bird.

Not to ruffle any feathers here, but from my standpoint, I wouldn't want to even attempt
to fly a Renegade model staged; just from looking at it, it appears to be asking for trouble.
As I've said before, every Renegade model I've seen flown here in far west Houston has had
a failure in some shape, form or fashion.

Hey Mike, it wasn't my intention to leave out the excellent Thunderstar flight; guess I forgot
about it as I couldn't get any pictures due to my camera's memory reaching capacity. It
certainly was a textbook flight. BTW, welcome to the Ye Old Rocket Forum!!!

[Rocket Doctor]

It could have been the construction techniques, I was a bit rusty there. The assembly instruction were clear and I didn't have to vary any. I used Elmer's Glue-All so that could have contributed - I need to learn to build with epoxy anyway.

I did pick up a 36D on clearance the other day. I'm not crazy about it but figured I could bash it if nothing else and $14 was too good to pass up.

Thanks for the advice. :)



The 36 D Squared looked much better, my prototpe had larger fins and a pointed nose cone. They changed it so the length would equal 36 inches.

This is the only other two engine cluster besides the X Prize Thunderstar. And, you probably won't see anymore clusters anytime soon.

[Mikus]

And, you probably won't see anymore clusters anytime soon.


That is exactly why I picked it up. :D

[Doug Sams]

And, you probably won't see anymore clusters anytime soon.Is there a particular reason for this? That is, was the 36 D Squared a poor seller? Or did it present lots of warrantee claims? Or is Estes just not into clusters?

Frankly, if it's a poor seller, there are other possible reasons for that besides clustering being intimidating to the potential buyer.

(soap box)
Furthermore, it occurs to me that Estes needs to keep a fresh stream of certain rocket types coming. They roll out lots of new E2X and RTF models on a regular basis. While the appropriate product mix may be limited to only one each of a cluster, a stager, a sci-fi bird, etc, they need to be putting new kits of each of these types into the pipe regularly. The kit line has to complement the motor line. From my perspective, they wouldn't have needed to kill off some recent OOP motors if they had been rolling out kits to use them.

For example, while they brought to market the C C Express in conjunction with the C11 motors, as I recall, they didn't follow it up with another kit - staged or otherwise - to use the series of motors. And frankly, right now, I could use some more C11-0's :)

Doug

[Rocket Doctor]

Is there a particular reason for this? That is, was the 36 D Squared a poor seller? Or did it present lots of warrantee claims? Or is Estes just not into clusters?

Frankly, if it's a poor seller, there are other possible reasons for that besides clustering being intimidating to the potential buyer.

(soap box)
Furthermore, it occurs to me that Estes needs to keep a fresh stream of certain rocket types coming. They roll out lots of new E2X and RTF models on a regular basis. While the appropriate product mix may be limited to only one each of a cluster, a stager, a sci-fi bird, etc, they need to be putting new kits of each of these types into the pipe regularly. The kit line has to complement the motor line. From my perspective, they wouldn't have needed to kill off some recent OOP motors if they had been rolling out kits to use them.

For example, while they brought to market the C C Express in conjunction with the C11 motors, as I recall, they didn't follow it up with another kit - staged or otherwise - to use the series of motors. And frankly, right now, I could use some more C11-0's :)

Doug


First I was asked to design more clustered rockets, which I was in the process of doing.

Last October, at a new product meeting, alot of new as well as bring backs were discussed and approved, In had four rockets on the approval list to come out early 2007, then, they were cavcelled and the Forum shut down.

Shooying Star was a rocket that carried "shooting stars" rubbery "star" shaped LED lights that flashed when squeezed, two of these would have been placed into the rocket, and at apogee, the "stars" would come out on their own seperate chutes and the rocket on it's own. If this rocket was flown at dusk, you would have the impression of "shootig stars" flyimg across the sky.

Jump Zone was a plane shaped rocket that carried a paratrooper. on the ground there would be a target, the purpose of this would to land ypur paratrooper on the target (a good spot lander)

The Siren, a rocket that looked like a larger Red Max had a payload section where the "siren - alarn" was mounted, the siren would be activated and would sound off during launch and recovery.

Bell X-1, a replica of the soind barrier breaking rocket.

Things coming out of Estes seem to be lagging behind, two employees left and I guess there trying to catch up.

If Estes would stay the course, there should be more great kits, both new and bring backs coming out.

Motors are a completly different issue, if you followed the Estes Forum, you would know the whole story.

This reply is not intended to bash Estes, just put a perspective on things.......

[barone]

The issue of the booster being heavy....has anybody thought to try to use a parachute for recovering it? Is there enough room in the sustainer to pack a small parachute between the motor tube and body (centering ring deep enough)? Shouldn't have to be too big of a chute. Guess I'll have to push mine to the front of the build cue and see if it will work. ;)

[Rocket Doctor]

The problem with that would be to protect the chute from the upper stage motor. There really isn't enough room in the booster or upper stage to do too much.

Someone suggested eliminating some of the fins, that would be a possibility. The issue remains, the booster has lots of fins, glides down, rather than tumbles and it's heavy. When I was drafting up the instructions I brought this up............never changed though.

[garmtn]

SUCH A PRETTY ROCKET TO COME DOWN IN FLAMES!. I WOULD TAKE THAT GOUYS ADVICE AND CONTACT ESTES. POSSIBLE TOO MUCH EJECTION CHARGE. I MYSELF HAVE A 3 ENGINE CLUSTER 40+ TALL. fIRST LAUNCH HAD A FEW MISHAPS TOO. SINGED PARACHUTE AND SHOCK CORD TOO SHORT. UPPER BODY TUBE ACTUALLY HAD DENT IN IT FROM SNAPPING BACK. :(

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

SUCH A PRETTY ROCKET TO COME DOWN IN FLAMES!. I WOULD TAKE THAT GOUYS ADVICE AND CONTACT ESTES. POSSIBLE TOO MUCH EJECTION CHARGE. I MYSELF HAVE A 3 ENGINE CLUSTER 40+ TALL. fIRST LAUNCH HAD A FEW MISHAPS TOO. SINGED PARACHUTE AND SHOCK CORD TOO SHORT. UPPER BODY TUBE ACTUALLY HAD DENT IN IT FROM SNAPPING BACK. :(

Psst. Dude, you're yelling. This is Ye Olde Rocket Forum, not Ye Olde Deaf Rocket Forum. :rolleyes: ;)

[barone]

Psst. Dude, you're yelling. This is Ye Olde Rocket Forum, not Ye Olde Deaf Rocket Forum. :rolleyes: ;)
Psst.....All caps on the net is like yelling....we like things kind of quiet.....we're just a bunch of old rocketeers that have kinda sensitive hearing... :rolleyes:

[Rocket Doctor]

SUCH A PRETTY ROCKET TO COME DOWN IN FLAMES!. I WOULD TAKE THAT GOUYS ADVICE AND CONTACT ESTES. POSSIBLE TOO MUCH EJECTION CHARGE. I MYSELF HAVE A 3 ENGINE CLUSTER 40+ TALL. fIRST LAUNCH HAD A FEW MISHAPS TOO. SINGED PARACHUTE AND SHOCK CORD TOO SHORT. UPPER BODY TUBE ACTUALLY HAD DENT IN IT FROM SNAPPING BACK. :(



Like I mentioned previously, contact Estes with your concerns.
Either go to their web site www.estesrockets.com, or call customer service and speak with Christine 1-800-525-7561 X 216
By allerting Estes tp "problems" hopefully corrective action will be taken.

[garmtn]

Sorry guys! This Dell doesn't have a "caps light" indicator, so the only way I know is to type. Don't always pay attention. Sorry.