D-13 motors

[Rocket Doctor]

How many of you are familiar with D-13 motors?
They were out around the early 70's, but the biggest difference was the nozzle size, smaller, causing them to fail.

From what I am told, they were referred to as the "Kaboom" motors.

I did find a couple in my motor lot, very interesting.....

[Shreadvector]

Bad doctor.:p


The delay time is after the "dash". They were D13 motors, not D-13 motors. (Need I bring up the Citation motor designations?)

They were great when they did not fail. They had a deeper core than the D12 and they had a higher peak thrust, with coresponding higher internal pressure.

I'm not sure if they made any casing modifications, such as requiring more glue, but I do know they created the D12 to improve reliability. Lower peak thrust, lower pressure.

There were still problems with the D12 but they were not as bad as the D13. The D13 failures were often split casings accompanied by propellant blow-through. The D12 failures were almost always propellant blow-through.

They have indeed tweaked something over the years because the D12 very rarely fails these days compared to the 1970's.

As always, proper storage can also affect failure rates.

[lurker01]

How many of you are familiar with D-13 motors?
They were out around the early 70's, but the biggest difference was the nozzle size, smaller, causing them to fail.

From what I am told, they were referred to as the "Kaboom" motors.

I did find a couple in my motor lot, very interesting.....


I have one sealed tube of D13s and one lose D13. Also have a couple brochures about the D13... also have a few kits that recommend the D13 as a motor... other than that I know nothing! :)

Robert

[Royatl]

How many of you are familiar with D-13 motors?
They were out around the early 70's, but the biggest difference was the nozzle size, smaller, causing them to fail.

From what I am told, they were referred to as the "Kaboom" motors.

I did find a couple in my motor lot, very interesting.....

Of course, you should clarify that you are talking about Estes D13 motors, as Aerotech produces a D13 reload for its 18mm casing.

I still have one left, a D13-0 in an old style Estes-stripe casing (I *think* all the D12 motors were produced with the logo-style casing).

Shread is correct about the general failure modes of it. It seemed to be similar to the later E15 episode. If you flew a really fresh one, it would work very well. But store it for a few months and they'd often cato.

I have a film of an old MASER launch in '71. A friend of mine built a large two-stage model from peeled out carpet tube (just barely under the one pound limit). I had the good sense of setting the movie camera for 24fps (slow motion for 8mm) and the movie shows the obliteration of *both* stages with lots of smoke!

[dwmzmm]

I remember the D13's very, very well. One exploded on my K-36 Saturn - V at a Regional
meet in Louisiana (in 1972, I think) just as the model was starting to move up the rod; cost
me all of my flight points :mad: . I was in no mood to try a second flight after that. I still have the "last" D13-3 from that batch in my OOP vintage motor collection....

[Bob H]

I flew two D13-5's last year as part of the NAR old motor testing program. The date code indicated they were made in 1969.

I flew them in a Goblin clone and they both performed perfectly. Liftoff was much faster than the same model using a D12.

Nozzle size is much bigger than a D12. I still have one more and a couple of D13-3's that I want to fly before the end of year.

I never had one CATO but will admit that I never flew a lot of them.

[tfischer]

Fred,

I've noticed your posts and attachments make a huge deal about brush fires. Is that a huge problem out in Cali? (I'm particularly thinking of the one you posted a couple weeks ago telling people they had to RUN to their rocket with a bucket of water if it crashed...)

I only ask because I launched a lot of rockets in my youth, and had a number of them fail/crash in spectaular ways, but have not once even come close to starting a fire, even a small one... The places we'd launch would be typically an athletic complex or groomed park, but there were often farm fields off to one side where the rockets would sometimes crash into...

Just wondering...

-Tim

[Rocket Doctor]

Bad doctor.:p


The delay time is after the "dash". They were D13 motors, not D-13 motors. (Need I bring up the Citation motor designations?)

They were great when they did not fail. They had a deeper core than the D12 and they had a higher peak thrust, with coresponding higher internal pressure.

I'm not sure if they made any casing modifications, such as requiring more glue, but I do know they created the D12 to improve reliability. Lower peak thrust, lower pressure.

There were still problems with the D12 but they were not as bad as the D13. The D13 failures were often split casings accompanied by propellant blow-through. The D12 failures were almost always propellant blow-through.

They have indeed tweaked something over the years because the D12 very rarely fails these days compared to the 1970's.

As always, proper storage can also affect failure rates.

Fred

I know, I just wanted to emphasize the "13"

Caught me by surprise when I came across a couple.
There was a post about "fires", I would say, if it didn't rain in a long time, many parts of the country, then, under the right conditions, I would say a fire coulds result.

Anyone who goes camping knows about open fire bans.

[Rocket Doctor]

Of course, you should clarify that you are talking about Estes D13 motors, as Aerotech produces a D13 reload for its 18mm casing.

I still have one left, a D13-0 in an old style Estes-stripe casing (I *think* all the D12 motors were produced with the logo-style casing).

Shread is correct about the general failure modes of it. It seemed to be similar to the later E15 episode. If you flew a really fresh one, it would work very well. But store it for a few months and they'd often cato.

I have a film of an old MASER launch in '71. A friend of mine built a large two-stage model from peeled out carpet tube (just barely under the one pound limit). I had the good sense of setting the movie camera for 24fps (slow motion for 8mm) and the movie shows the obliteration of *both* stages with lots of smoke!


Sorry I didn't say ESTES, but coming over from the Estes forum it's just natural to go on about Estes products without mentioning their name.

[Rocket Doctor]

Like I mentioned above, thet were known as the Kaboom motors.

[tfischer]

Anyone who goes camping knows about open fire bans.

Oh I know all about open fire bans. I've just never heard so much emphesis about fires regarding model rocketry except via Fred's posts, so I'm assuming this is a particular problem out in California...

-Tim

[tbzep]

Oh I know all about open fire bans. I've just never heard so much emphesis about fires regarding model rocketry except via Fred's posts, so I'm assuming this is a particular problem out in California...

-Tim

The state fire marshall (or whatever their top level office is called) was a big hurdle when it came to even allowing the motors to be sold. They have to be careful or the hobby might get banned all together in CA. Many parts of California are very dry and prone to fire. Didn't you watch Emergency! when you were growing up? Who wanted to be Gage? Who wanted to be DeSoto? Did anybody ever want to be Kelly? I didn't want to be Dixie, but I sure wanted her. :D

[Doug Sams]

I've noticed your posts and attachments make a huge deal about brush fires. Is that a huge problem out in Cali? C'mon, Tim. Are you saying you never watch TV news? It's pretty hard to avoid all the stories about California wildfires the past few years. They've had them elsewhere as well, including here in Texas, but California - the entire state - is pretty much a perpetual matchstick.

When I first started reading web forums a few years ago, and heard about all the headaches of flying in California, I thought it was just California big-brother bureaucracy run amok. But when I framed it in the context of wildfires destroying billions of dollars of homes and killing people, I began to appreciate the fire marshal's perspective _and_ authority.

...

As an aside, it seems California is a state of biblical proportions. Besides wildfires, they have issues with earthquakes, mudslides and pestilence, too. Makes you wonder what the attraction is ;)

Doug

[tfischer]

C'mon, Tim. Are you saying you never watch TV news?

Did I mention I live in a cardboard box? :D

Seriously, I obviously knew about the wildfires, but had no idea it was that volatile, that a simple crashing rocket would require someone to literally run to the rocket to avoid certain disaster...

-Tim

[Doug Sams]

Seriously, I obviously knew about the wildfires, but had no idea it was that volatile, that a simple crashing rocket would require someone to literally run to the rocket to avoid certain disaster...I grew up in central Kentucky, and snowy weather was a rare occurence, especially rare for any useful accumulation which would get us out of school or allow sledding. One uncommon winter in the 70's, just after Christmas, we had such as storm, and were out sledding and freezing as kids will do. Getting thoroghly chilled to the bone, we decided to light one of the discarded Christmas trees awaiting pickup on the side of the road.

Boy! Did we ever get a lesson in tinder box fires! This thing went up in seconds. The comical scene in the movie Christmas Vacation was not far from the truth. It was definite deflagration bordering on detonation :) Of course, as the evening wore on, we had to gather up all the other dead trees on the street and burn them, too :D


Doug

[tfischer]

On that note, this video will freak you out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPyrJbKJpIY

-Tim

[Doug Sams]

On that note, this video will freak you out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPyrJbKJpIYI saw a piece on a "COPS"-like show where a small fire in a convenience store quickly spread nearly entrapping the store patrons. I also recall the video from the New England night club a couple years ago. Fires like these move very fast.

Inspired, we've had a fire safety meeting at our house to discuss the key points about getting out. We talked about getting your face all the way down on the floor for fresh air, using your hand to test the temperature of closed doors before opening, and having a designated meeting place outside the house.

And with today's discussion, it's probably time to have that meeting again.

Doug
Taking mental note to have family meeting...

[Shreadvector]

I was offline most of yesterday, so I'm just now responding.


Fires are bad anywhere where it does not rain for 8 months at a time. The plants get tinder dry. We avoid flying near large amounts of dry brush, but there is always some small amoount of growth on the dirt area we use for launching at our park. Other parks have grassy areas that don't get watered, so they turn dry and brown in the "fire season". Our old launch site (Mile Square Park Hobby Area, now long gone) was like that.

The advice you quoted is from our club materials. It is intended to remind folks that their rocket is THEIR rocket. The club is there to help and we provide club launch pads and club fire extinguishers, but we do not want folks to just shove stuff on the launch pads and then sit in a lawn chair as their own rocket has a problem. It is basic simple and logical advice that if YOUR rocket goes unstable or craches, that YOU need to deal with it. The means grabbing a fire extinguisher or jug of water (club or personal) and RUNNING to the crash site as soon as it is safe to approach and extinuishing the wreakage and if there are any plants or weeds on fire, extinguishing them as well before any fire can spread.

Why would we want to tell flyers to just sit there and do nothing if their own rockets crashed? Waiting is dangerous since a fire can spread.

Now, the regular part of the park we fly in had lawns and trees and sprinklers that keep them very green. We only launch on a lawn area a couple of months a year when our normal dirt site is in use by the Renaissance Fair. Fire is virtually impossible on the green lawn, but we still bring extinguishers. The goose poo is more of a hazard. Massive amounts of goose poo....:eek:


Fred,

I've noticed your posts and attachments make a huge deal about brush fires. Is that a huge problem out in Cali? (I'm particularly thinking of the one you posted a couple weeks ago telling people they had to RUN to their rocket with a bucket of water if it crashed...)

I only ask because I launched a lot of rockets in my youth, and had a number of them fail/crash in spectaular ways, but have not once even come close to starting a fire, even a small one... The places we'd launch would be typically an athletic complex or groomed park, but there were often farm fields off to one side where the rockets would sometimes crash into...

Just wondering...

-Tim

[Initiator001]

The goose poo is more of a hazard. Massive amounts of goose poo....:eek:

Yeah, that's for sure. :eek:

I bring a second pair of shoes to put on when leaving the flying field.

Bob

[Bob H]

I flew two D13-5's last year as part of the NAR old motor testing program. The date code indicated they were made in 1969.

I flew them in a Goblin clone and they both performed perfectly. Liftoff was much faster than the same model using a D12.

Nozzle size is much bigger than a D12. I still have one more and a couple of D13-3's that I want to fly before the end of year.

I never had one CATO but will admit that I never flew a lot of them.So, of course I had to mention this and last Saturday I had a D13-3 CATO in a Rubicon. The date code was from January 16, 1970.

It got about 25 ft up and just flamed out the front. The rocket looks ok from the outside But I haven't had a chance to really look at the central tube. I'm sure it got plenty hot in there.

[ghrocketman]

One could not pay me enough to even consider living in California.
WAAAAAAAYYYYYY too many laws/regs and liberals.
I'd probably spend time in jails just for voicing my ultra conservative views.
The closest I have ever gotten and will get to that state by choice is Las Vegas, NV.

[lurker01]

So, of course I had to mention this and last Saturday I had a D13-3 CATO in a Rubicon. The date code was from January 16, 1970.

It got about 25 ft up and just flamed out the front. The rocket looks ok from the outside But I haven't had a chance to really look at the central tube. I'm sure it got plenty hot in there.


Bob,

Trust me, its toast ... surprised you didn't get the bubbling of the paint on the lower portion of the model.

California is currently burning without the aide of model rocket motors :(

Robert

[Initiator001]

California is currently burning without the aide of model rocket motors :(

Robert


Tell me about it. I am located 2-3 miles south of the boundary for the Witch Creek fire in San Diego.

Not good. :(

Bob

[Doug Sams]

Tell me about it. I am located 2-3 miles south of the boundary for the Witch Creek fire in San Diego.

Not good. :( When I saw the recent fire reports, this thread immediately came to mind.

Stay safe, Bob.

Doug

[mrhemi1971]

I deal with fire safety every day, I'm a fire protection engineer. You'd be surprised what fire can and cannot do. I always keep a small extinguisher with me whenever doing any flying, and would encourage everybody else to do the same. I've seen so many clubs that don't fly with some sort of fire suppression and I'd hate to think what happens if/when a small fire does happen. a $50 extinguisher is a lot cheaper than jail time, property damage or lives lost.

Just my nickel's worth....

[JoeLaunchman]

On a related topic, whatever happened to the Estes D11-9. It was great in my Skybolt and other lightweight D-powered rockets. Why did they discontinue it and when?

[dwmzmm]

On a related topic, whatever happened to the Estes D11-9. It was great in my Skybolt and other lightweight D-powered rockets. Why did they discontinue it and when?


Strongly agreed!! The D11-9's were one of my favorites back in those days (loved them on
my Goblin). The extra long nine second delay always gave those size models an impressive
flight profile. They still make the D11-P's, and I may very well find some use for them (that's a topic in another thread I've posted....).

[ghrocketman]

The D11-9 was a good motor for the Skybolt and the Cherokee-D.
Th only downfall was they were less total impulse than the D12 series in order to fit that 9 second delay in the same casing. I think those are nominally around 15 n-sec whereas the D12 is around 17-18 n-sec.
The D11-P supposedly is the only full 20 n-sec D that Estes produces....my understanding is that it contains more propellant than any of the D12's.

Why Estes does not fill the D12-0 almost to the top with propellant and make it a full 20 n-sec booster engine is beyond me.

What happened to the D11-9 is like all the other discontinued Estes motors....no warning, it just disappeared from the lineup. That one actually had one of the shortest production runs (lasted less than 5 years) of any Estes motors but the B8-7 and B8-0; the B8-5 lasted for MANY years, but the B8-7 and B8-0 were produced only one year which was the same year that saw introduction of the B8-5 and D11-9 at Estes as well as the B8-3 with a Centuri label. This same year saw the discontinuation of all B14 motors from the Estes and Centuri lines.
Why the B8-3 was only produced with a Centuri label and not an Estes one is a mystery as well. The C5-0 was never produced with an Estes label either, even though it was produced exclusively on Estes machinery.
The only 18mm commonly produced booster engine that was any better than a C5-0 was the B14-0 (although the Cox D8-0 was arguably better than both, but was produced in much smaller quantities and only until about 1978)
For a real screamin flight clone a 3-stage Astron Farside and fly it full-stack C5-0 to C5-0 to C6-7 and try to recover it from well over 3000'. A D8-0 to D8-0 to D8-3 (the 3 sec delay was the only ejection charged Cox D) would go to almost 4000' in that rocket.

[Nuke Rocketeer]

I still have 18 or so C5-0 engines that I use for high altitude staged flights. I certainly wish Estes would make them again. Much better than the C6-0.

Joe W

[Shreadvector]

On a related topic, whatever happened to the Estes D11-9. It was great in my Skybolt and other lightweight D-powered rockets. Why did they discontinue it and when?

The average American consumer thinks that a bigger number is a more powerful motor, so they bought the D11-9 and pu it in their Maxi V-2 because they "knew" the 9 was more powerful than the 3 in a D12-3, so their rocket would fly higher.

After enough crashes, someone decided to stop selling the crash generators.

[ghrocketman]

Anybody that is stoopyd enough to think/apply "Bigger Is Better" theory to delays across the board for all of rocketry DESERVES TO CRASH their Maxi-Huge-Heavy-Draggy ANYTHING, period.

Although I don't deny it probably has happened, anyone that would use a D11-9 in a Maxi-V2 is an imbecile and would probably fly a K29 S1B on a 4xC6-7 cluster as well....we don't need em in this hobby.

Estes response to this should not have been to discontinue a useful engine (for it's intended application). They should have responded by saying "A D11-9 is not a reccommended motor/engine for any of the V2 kits we have ever produced, this was OPERATOR error, YOU LOSE, BUB !"

[Doug Sams]

Why Estes does not fill the D12-0 almost to the top with propellant and make it a full 20 n-sec booster engine is beyond me. Actually, that'd make it more that 20Ns, probably closer to 30. But that's good.

I've had this conversation with fellow rocketeers here in Dallas. Since the thrust profile would remain the same (for the first three seconds) there would really be no gain in lifting load, but it would still be kewl to have a 30Ns BP booster. Likewise for the 18mm C6-0. Why not fill it up and have a baby D?

That said, and Fred S can probably add more facts here, the likelihood of case burn through increases with burn time. Apparently, the long burn AVI motors were prone to that. AVI's D6.1 is very close to the fully loaded C6-0 described above. So there may be good reasons not to fill 'em up.

OTOH, I'm not too worried about whether Estes does this. I have my fingers crossed someone else will eventually step up with such BP exotica ;)

Doug

[dtomko]

I lost my original Centuri 1/45 Little Joe II to a D13-3 CATO :mad:
I spent a lot of time on (around 1974) and didn't feel confident with clustering so I converted it to a single 24mm mount. The motor was a few years old when I launched it (I remember the D13s coming from Estes in the old cardboard tubes). I had no idea what happened, never having seen or even heard of a CATO. It just disintegrated on the pad, not a lot of flame, but a loud pop and a complete dismantling of the whole rocket. The BT was totally unwound and scorched and the plastic capsule was split into a few pieces. I saved the capsule and tower, but that's about all I could salvage. It wasn't until years later that I found out what CATOs were. I had two good flights of my original Estes Saturn V on the other two motors from the tube. Who knew I was playing Russian Roulette???

Sorry, I'm getting choked up just remembering it . . .

Drew

[ghrocketman]

The old 18mm Cox D8-0 was filled a lot closer to the top of the casing than the C6-0.
It was not all the way to the top, but it was close.
Used several (more than 20) of 'em and never had a "burn thru" either.

[Doug Sams]

The old 18mm Cox D8-0 was filled a lot closer to the top of the casing than the C6-0. It was not all the way to the top, but it was close. Used several (more than 20) of 'em and never had a "burn thru" either.Yes, that's a excellent example. I've never seen nor flown one, but from reading about it, the D8-0 appears to be nothing more than a C booster with the unused space packed with BP. Can't recall the specs exactly , but it was something like a 13Ns baby D.

If it won't burn thru, then I say (to motor manufacturers) "go for it!"

Doug

[ghrocketman]

The manufacturer quoted 15 n-sec for the Cox D8-3 and D8-0 but in reality they tested out to between 13 and 14 n-sec, but that is still a 30 to 40% increase over a typical C.

The Cox D8-3, prior to the advent of the Aerotech composite 20 n-sec 18mm D's, was the bar-none best engine for use in the Estes Mars Lander, #1284 Space Shuttle stack, and if one dared in the 3 engine cluster K36 Saturn V and 4 engine cluster K29 Saturn 1B.

I flew a K36 on 3xD8-3 once around 1999-2000 and it flew about to the same height as a flight of my K36 on a single RMS 24 Aerotech "E" reload.

Why the LARGER K36 used 3x18mm and the smaller K29 S1B used 4x18mm is NONSENSE.

By the way they did not call them the D-KABOOM-13 and E-KABOOM-15 for nothing.... :D

[Initiator001]

As part of the NAR Old Motor Testing Program, I flew a Cox D8-0 this past Sunday.

I flew the motor in an Estes Snitch plastic flying saucer.

I ignited the motor with a Copperhead and away it went. The flight was great! :D

The Snitch appeared to climb straight up! Several folks commented that it was the straightest Snitch flight they had ever seen.

The motor burned out and the Snitch made an uneventful landing near the launch pads.

I wish I had more of these motors!

Bob

[ghrocketman]

The Cox D8-3 and D8-0 are some of my favorite 18mm motors.
Huge value for the buck when they were available.

I'd really like to see a return of these....I'd gladly give up the existence of the B4-2 or B6-2 or even the C6-3 for the return of the BP D8-3 !

Most of the Cox D8 engines I have left are 1971 date stamped....I did not even start flying until 1977, but I remember the local hobby shop in Fenton, Mi., "Family Hobbies" having tons of Cox rocket engines back then.

Glad to see somebody other than myself is still flying Cox D's.

[mikeyd]

Back in the early 70's I had a D13-3 spit it's nozzle, and shoot right through our Saturn V, following the "pusher" tube, and pushing the chutes right out of the top. My brother and I could not afford the $11.95 at the time, so we pooled our money to buy the Saturn V. I wrote Estes, and they wanted the motor, so we went back to the field and looked for it. We did finally find it, and we had our folks send it in to Estes. To our surprise, we received a new K-36 Saturn V and new blue tube of motors! I still have both Saturn V's, finally cut the original in half and replaced the pusher tube, but never finished repainting it. In the picture attached, it is the one in the back on the far left, the one next to it is the one Estes sent to replace it.

[Bob H]

As part of the NAR Old Motor Testing Program, I flew a Canaroc D18-5 this past Saturday.

I flew the motor in an 126% upscale Goblin (BT-60).

Had a heck of a time trying to get it to ignite on regular Estes igniters. The core was so deep that the igniter wouldn't touch bottom. Finally borrowed a home-made igniter and away it went!

The flight was great and the recovery on a streamer seemed normal. When I picked it up however I noticed that the wadding was still in the body tube and the ejection charge had barely moved it enough to deploy the streamer.

On closer inspection of the motor, we found that the casing had burned through the side, right above the nozzle which probably accounted for the weak charge.

[Initiator001]

As part of the NAR Old Motor Testing Program, I flew a Canaroc D18-5 this past Saturday.

I flew the motor in an 126% upscale Goblin (BT-60).

Had a heck of a time trying to get it to ignite on regular Estes igniters. The core was so deep that the igniter wouldn't touch bottom. Finally borrowed a home-made igniter and away it went!

The flight was great and the recovery on a streamer seemed normal. When I picked it up however I noticed that the wadding was still in the body tube and the ejection charge had barely moved it enough to deploy the streamer.

On closer inspection of the motor, we found that the casing had burned through the side, right above the nozzle which probably accounted for the weak charge.

I flew a Canaroc B8-2 this past Sunday in a Quest Bright Hawk model.

I used a Copperhead igniter which had no problem lighting the motor.

Good flight except the shock cord broke but the rocket was okay.

Did your D18 have a paper or plastic casing? My B8 was plastic.

Another Bob

[Ltvscout]

In the picture attached, it is the one in the back on the far left, the one next to it is the one Estes sent to replace it.
Is that Jupiter C a scratchbuilt or a TMRK kit?

[Bob H]

Did your D18 have a paper or plastic casing? My B8 was plastic.

Another Bob
The D18 had a plastic casing.

[mikeyd]

Is that Jupiter C a scratchbuilt or a TMRK kit?


Actually it is an orginal NCR kit.
http://members.cox.net/shortckt4/juno1.html

[Ltvscout]

Actually it is an orginal NCR kit.
http://members.cox.net/shortckt4/juno1.html
Ahhh, I forgot Matt had offered a Juno-1 years ago.

You have a nice collection of old scale kits there. Do you fly any of them still?

[dwmzmm]

Actually it is an orginal NCR kit.
http://members.cox.net/shortckt4/juno1.html

Great stuff!! I could use it to scratch build a scale model of the Juno 1. Thanks for posting that!

[mikeyd]

Ahhh, I forgot Matt had offered a Juno-1 years ago.

You have a nice collection of old scale kits there. Do you fly any of them still?
Thanks, I still fly them occasionally. The Saturn 1B 1/70th scale is the orginal I built, about 35 years ago. 4 engine cluster. Last time was in 2005, http://www.tulsarocketry.org/jun05-pics.htm , or directly http://www.tulsarocketry.org/photos/PT05_114_1453.JPG . I just have two many to choose from and do not fly enough during the year, to get them in the Air more.