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prooflike13
10-12-2007, 09:45 PM
Can anyone tell me the years and locations produced for the yellow headers 60s ,the green,orange,red,then blue and black header boards?I need the years related to each color and maybe why? Also the locations produced for each color?Any info also on which header all things being equal are more rare. I truely would appreciate any info thxs!!!!!!

Phred
10-12-2007, 10:23 PM
I saved the below from a website several years ago. I am not sure if this answers your questions or not.... I hope it helps:

Phred

prooflike13
10-13-2007, 08:12 PM
can't open file is ther any way to send? thx

Phred
10-13-2007, 08:42 PM
THe abobe attachment is a Mocrosoft Word doc. I saved it as a jpeg below:

prooflike13
10-13-2007, 09:08 PM
thanks.very informative,has anyone broke down population of a model # with specfic header card? ex. scissorwing (blue) v.s. (black).thx sorry to be so specfic

Phred
10-13-2007, 09:34 PM
From what I have heard, no records were kept of these details. Nothing was thrown away, and ESTES simply used what was available until they ran out, then used the new headers. For Example: I have an Alpha kit with a pre-Damon face card, and a post Damon hang tag.

mojo1986
10-14-2007, 09:04 AM
I can tell you one thing for sure..............that red hangtag pictured opposite the 1971-1972 blurb is VERY scarce. In that era Estes also used a yellow hangtag that was identical to the red one except for the color. I started doing some population studies on the relative rarity of the two a few years back, and one thing is for certain.............there were at least 100 yellow hangtags used for every red one during that time. Also, the yellow hangtag came in two sizes, 5" x 1 3/4" (folded) for use on smaller kits, and 6 3/8" x 2" for use on the larger ones. The red hangtag came only in the larger size (at least, I have never seen a small one, and I am confident that they never existed). I have never heard any reason why Estes used the red hangtag................it may just have been an error at the printing shop, and Vern may have decided to use them rather than waste them.

Joe

Ltvscout
10-14-2007, 09:59 AM
Mike Mauer's website that Phred got this info of off used to still be accessible via the wayback machine at archive.org. The domain was www.modelrockets.com. Unfortunately, it appears that Darrell over at RocketryPlanet has bought the domain and now the info is gone. If you try hitting that domain on archive.org it just takes you to Darrell's uHostMe server page. :(

lurker01
10-14-2007, 11:43 AM
I can tell you one thing for sure..............that red hangtag pictured opposite the 1971-1972 blurb is VERY scarce. In that era Estes also used a yellow hangtag that was identical to the red one except for the color. I started doing some population studies on the relative rarity of the two a few years back, and one thing is for certain.............there were at least 100 yellow hangtags used for every red one during that time. Also, the yellow hangtag came in two sizes, 5" x 1 3/4" (folded) for use on smaller kits, and 6 3/8" x 2" for use on the larger ones. The red hangtag came only in the larger size (at least, I have never seen a small one, and I am confident that they never existed). I have never heard any reason why Estes used the red hangtag................it may just have been an error at the printing shop, and Vern may have decided to use them rather than waste them.

Joe


Joe,

I have DOZENS of 'skill level' kits with red hang tags from this period with the estes log on the left side, and the damon on the right. What is rarer are the Red/blue/black hang tags; I only have about a dozen or so kits with those. Those are from the time when Estes Ind. was being handed over to Damon Ind..

What is VERY rare and most people don't know this is that 'K' kits have a special situation concerning hangtags. I am not going to say what, but for those who love to research and figuring things out... its out there :)


Robert

mojo1986
10-14-2007, 12:09 PM
Robert, I'm not sure which hangtag variety you are referring to when you say Estes logo on the left and Damon on the right. Is it the red hangtag from the '71-'72 timeframe in the file posted by Phred above? Those were never used in 'Skill Level' packaging. If you are referring to the red skill level packaging hangtag, that was only used on one bagged kit to signify Skill Level 5, namely the Mercury Redstone kit (a pink one was used for Level 2, and those are very common). Can you enlighten me? As for the special situation for 'K' kits that you refer to, I may already be aware of it but just don't realise it since I have no way of knowing what you are referring to. If you want to email me and give me a subtle hint I will let you know whether I'm aware of it. If not, my curiosity would undoubtedly push me to do the research.

Joe

lurker01
10-14-2007, 12:38 PM
Robert, I'm not sure which hangtag variety you are referring to when you say Estes logo on the left and Damon on the right. Is it the red hangtag from the '71-'72 timeframe in the file posted by Phred above? Those were never used in 'Skill Level' packaging. If you are referring to the red skill level packaging hangtag, that was only used on one bagged kit to signify Skill Level 5, namely the Mercury Redstone kit (a pink one was used for Level 2, and those are very common). Can you enlighten me? As for the special situation for 'K' kits that you refer to, I may already be aware of it but just don't realise it since I have no way of knowing what you are referring to. If you want to email me and give me a subtle hint I will let you know whether I'm aware of it. If not, my curiosity would undoubtedly push me to do the research.

Joe

Joe,

As for the 'skill level', I should have been more precise. I used the term loosly and I apologize for that. The kits that I am refering too, are the kits that have the yellow/red tags with the estes and damon logos and have the 'K' instruction as the header face, and not a 'face card' like the true skill level kits 1972+. Sorry for the confusion. The kits are red/yellow tags, with folded instrictions on one panel of the instructions acting as kit description. Some of the 'Bonus' kits that I have are like that as well as catalog/retail.

What is another rarity are kits that have instruction/face plates listing the D13 as recommended motor! Those are kits with the instructions folded up, and kit picture and motor selection printed on one panel. Those are also hard to come by.

Robert

P.s. All of the Estes kits were shipped with red/yellow tags. As was pointed out, Estes used all the resources at their disposal until it ran out. I don't think back in 1969/70 someone said, ' let's print special limited hang-tags so that in the year 1993, a company called 'ebay', will have these on a yet invented public internet (DARPA did have the nacent internet in place by 1969). No, they just used what was available from their paper suppliers. If the supplier had an overstock of Yellow, then Estes could get a lesser price for it. If there was left over red for hang-tags, the Estes printer would print on that until it was gone. Estes did have an in-house print shop and they used what they could.

There wasn't anything special about the red tag. Why even now I am looking at an Aerobee 300, and Wac Corporal with red tags and estes/damon logos on them. Then there is a Migget and Gyroc with Yellow tags (with 'K' instructions +Estes/Damon logos). So there was at the very least the 300 and the Wac that had red tags also.

P.S.S. I was thinking and I am 80% sure that I have a kit that has a BLUE hang tag with the Ested and Damon logos on them. IIRC, it is a Falcon. Maybe the Estes print shop had some blue left over?!

lurker01
10-14-2007, 02:13 PM
Joe,

I also have a couple of Stingers: http://www.dars.org/jimz/k-53.htm

They came with a BLACK hang-tag with white logos, and a 'K' folded instruction sheet. Just a FYI :)

Robert

Leo
10-15-2007, 03:27 AM
Estes also made white hang tags with black logos some time in the mid to late 80's.

Ltvscout
10-15-2007, 08:53 AM
Estes also made white hang tags with black logos some time in the mid to late 80's.
Not to mention all the kits packaged for Canada and Germany as well. I wonder how many Estes collectors also have the French and German versions of the kits and starter kits in their collections?

lurker01
10-15-2007, 10:50 AM
Not to mention all the kits packaged for Canada and Germany as well. I wonder how many Estes collectors also have the French and German versions of the kits and starter kits in their collections?

I have a couple French-Canadian items. I have Eastern Europe and German (East) model rockets and Soviet era kits.

Personally, a hang tag, beyond it's condition is a small item when concerning the rarity of a kit. Yes, I know there is a big difference between say an 80s plastic tag formed from the bag and a 1966 Pre-damon yellow tag with the VF-261 on it. Howsoever, there are instances where even newer kits are rarer due to their limited production numbers.

There are several kits from the 80s and 90s that had less than a years worth of production and only a few thousand instances produced, yet they go for peanuts compared to a K kit that was made in the 10s of thousands. 'nuff said, I am spilling the beans and will likely cause more competition for ebay items :)

Robert

Phred
10-15-2007, 12:19 PM
I have a few German kits: early 1980's boxed kits. There is a bagged (no hang tag) ESTES kit inside the box, with an additional set of German instructions.

I have an Alpha and an Icarus (I think...). Interestingly enough, the Big Bertha was sold as the 'Astron' in Germany.

You can run across these on Ebay Germany every once in a while.

Phred

Leo
10-15-2007, 03:04 PM
-> Examples here ... (http://www.leo.nutz.de/Rockets.php?Rockets=Estes%20Industries%20(Mattel)) :)

CraigF
10-15-2007, 05:35 PM
Very nice stuff you have there Leo! I didn't know Estes had a relationship with Mattel. Boxes are such a good idea for rocket kits IMO. I have heard that a few were put in boxes for Canada too (bagged for the U.S.), but don't know details.

What are these "French-Canadian" headers? I did notice French on many Estes headers, but just assumed these were the same ones as sold in the U.S. as I did get many of my kits from the U.S. I saved the header/bag/insert of kits I built, a real packrat, but still can't tell much (I thought the price tags might have been revealing).

lurker01
10-15-2007, 10:07 PM
Estes also made white hang tags with black logos some time in the mid to late 80's.

The Estes Command Copter has a white hang tag with Green or Blue logos ... its endless :)

Robert

http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/catalogs/estes75/75estb.html

Leo
10-16-2007, 02:33 AM
The Estes Command Copter has a white hang tag with Green or Blue logos ... its endless :)

Robert

http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/catalogs/estes75/75estb.html

Ahhh, but that's not a model rocket, so it doesn't count ;)

But agreed, it's endless :)

CraigF
10-18-2007, 12:01 AM
Anyone have info on the French-Canadian headers?? Don't worry, I'm not a collector, I only buy models I like and anything too expensive to build I pass on. I just want to look through my stuff as a matter of curiosity. PM if you want, I won't talk! Thanks. :)

mojo1986
10-18-2007, 09:13 AM
Robert:

Personally, a hang tag, beyond it's condition is a small item when concerning the rarity of a kit. Yes, I know there is a big difference between say an 80s plastic tag formed from the bag and a 1966 Pre-damon yellow tag with the VF-261 on it. Howsoever, there are instances where even newer kits are rarer due to their limited production numbers.

Possibly true, but gosh, those old kits bring back the memories! The newer kits just don't have the same appeal.

There are several kits from the 80s and 90s that had less than a years worth of production and only a few thousand instances produced, yet they go for peanuts compared to a K kit that was made in the 10s of thousands.

While the K kits were doubtless produced in large quantities over the years, for the most part they were purchased to be built. If guys knew the internet was coming and that kits would someday go for hundreds of dollars each, I'm sure a lot more of them would have been tucked away. But we didn't know that. For various reasons there are some of them still around today, but I would suggest that the true measure of rarity is the population that remains, not the original production figures.

'nuff said, I am spilling the beans and will likely cause more competition for ebay items

I wouldn't worry about it..............competition isn't a bad thing. Besides, at the end of the day it's the supply/demand balance that drives prices...............not just the supply. Would you really rather have an Estes 2182 Wacky Wiggler, produced only in 2003, than an old GT-3 Gemini-Titan in your collection? Most of us would go for the GT-3.

Just my point of view.

Joe

lurker01
10-18-2007, 03:34 PM
Robert:

Personally, a hang tag, beyond it's condition is a small item when concerning the rarity of a kit. Yes, I know there is a big difference between say an 80s plastic tag formed from the bag and a 1966 Pre-damon yellow tag with the VF-261 on it. Howsoever, there are instances where even newer kits are rarer due to their limited production numbers.

Possibly true, but gosh, those old kits bring back the memories! The newer kits just don't have the same appeal.

There are several kits from the 80s and 90s that had less than a years worth of production and only a few thousand instances produced, yet they go for peanuts compared to a K kit that was made in the 10s of thousands.

While the K kits were doubtless produced in large quantities over the years, for the most part they were purchased to be built. If guys knew the internet was coming and that kits would someday go for hundreds of dollars each, I'm sure a lot more of them would have been tucked away. But we didn't know that. For various reasons there are some of them still around today, but I would suggest that the true measure of rarity is the population that remains, not the original production figures.

'nuff said, I am spilling the beans and will likely cause more competition for ebay items

I wouldn't worry about it..............competition isn't a bad thing. Besides, at the end of the day it's the supply/demand balance that drives prices...............not just the supply. Would you really rather have an Estes 2182 Wacky Wiggler, produced only in 2003, than an old GT-3 Gemini-Titan in your collection? Most of us would go for the GT-3.

Just my point of view.

Joe

Joe,

Agrreed, but I am not telling the masses that a red tag = $100+ more for a kit because it has a red tag. If that were the case, I have over $4000 in red taged Estes model rocket kits... just in the red tag alone! :)

Next, I don't buy kits for resale; I buy based on rarity, difficulty to clone, and my own personal love of rockets. E.g., I have purchased the Space Transporter America for as little as $50. This kit was produced from 1980 - 1981. It has plastic molding that isn't easy to replicate. It was also produced in much smaller numbers than say a "K" kit Cobra or GT-3. Yes, I would rather have the Transporter than that GT-3 given the GT-3's current price in the collectors' market. I have a pre-damon sealed GT-3 and the PDR Clone. I have built the PDR version and very happy with it. Its not the tag I look at; beyond its condition.

Another kit that was a 'sleeper' collectible was the Estes Mercury Atlas. This kit is one of the greatest kits Estes ever produced. Not a "K" kit, not a "red tag" kit. Just very good engineering and very low production numbers.

There are more, but that is up too the collector to figure out.

And I disagree about the forces behind prices. Its GREED. Greed plain and simple. A GT-3 isn't worth $400. The very same build can be had for $34.95 + shipping: http://www.pdrocketry.com/rocket.htm

And a MUCH MUCH better GT-x is Sheri's Rockets version, which I also have with the Al working Nozzles : http://www.cjsaviation.com/GEMINI.html <---- A light year above in difference over the old estes offering!

Hmm lets see pay $400 for an estes GT-3 or get 2 Sheri's versions for $100 more ... I will take the 2 Sher's versions in a HEART BEAT!

What drives the high price for an original kit is greed/desire. I don't care how people spend their money, I just am a little more prudent in my spending; but I do spend... way too much money.

So to sum it up:

1)I don't care if a kit has a red tag or not. There is nothing special about it to cause even more money to be spent on a kit, and anyone peddling that line is misinforming the public for personal gain.

2)There are MODERN kits that are rarer and get passed up by others because they don't have the 'old motiff'.

3)Greed/Desire drive the collectors market with respect to model rockets. If you have enough money, and enough greed/desire, then you win the auction. Congrats!

Robert

mojo1986
10-18-2007, 09:51 PM
Robert:

I don't disagree with much of what you wrote, but I have to say that the gauge of desirability of a particular kit lies in the response of the masses, not in what you or I think. So a kit that is identical to a yellow hang tag kit in every way, except that it has a red hang tag, is worth the money if a number of educated (or seasoned) collectors drive up the price because they want it. I'm surprised that you have so many red hang tag K-kits..............at one time i set it as a personal goal to collect as many as I could, and guess what.............a scant two or three came up for auction on Ebay over a 3-5 year period. That's when I realised that I'd better focus on collecting something else. Where the heck did you find all of yours?

Joe

Ltvscout
10-18-2007, 10:49 PM
at one time i set it as a personal goal to collect as many as I could, and guess what.............a scant two or three came up for auction on Ebay over a 3-5 year period. That's when I realised that I'd better focus on collecting something else. Where the heck did you find all of yours?
I'll take a guess that he got them via the old mail auctions that were popular in the 80's and early 90's before eBay arrived.

CraigF
10-18-2007, 11:28 PM
Collecting based on packaging (when it's the "same" company) is getting pretty specialised, definitely should be a challenge, especially when there's no collectors' catalog with production numbers/dates/etc. I do know that for many toys, the packaging is worth far more than whatever came in it, to the cognoscenti. The reason for that is pretty obvious for kids' stuff I guess. The demand is also somewhat limited, but those who want it sure seem to not mind paying.

Scott: popular even after eBay arrived. Remember how people used to whine when DEALERS :eek: started showing up selling Estes kits on eBay? I think it was around 96/97. The days when it wasn't a business site, and when 95% of the items in many categories weren't fakes ("imports")...

lurker01
10-19-2007, 10:23 AM
I'll take a guess that he got them via the old mail auctions that were popular in the 80's and early 90's before eBay arrived.

Scott is correct. I have some of the old mail order sales lists and auctions held by Centuri and Danny Sagstetter, and others... Buying at club launches, old hobby shop inventory, and of course ebay.

And its been nearly a lifetime of collecting.

The mail order sales by Centuri were held to raise money for the US Team competing in Internats. That was for the event held for the first time in the United States... some years ago.

Robert

lurker01
10-19-2007, 10:29 AM
Collecting based on packaging (when it's the "same" company) is getting pretty specialised, definitely should be a challenge, especially when there's no collectors' catalog with production numbers/dates/etc. I do know that for many toys, the packaging is worth far more than whatever came in it, to the cognoscenti. The reason for that is pretty obvious for kids' stuff I guess. The demand is also somewhat limited, but those who want it sure seem to not mind paying.

Scott: popular even after eBay arrived. Remember how people used to whine when DEALERS :eek: started showing up selling Estes kits on eBay? I think it was around 96/97. The days when it wasn't a business site, and when 95% of the items in many categories weren't fakes ("imports")...

Craig,

You reminded me of something.. wasn't there someone selling fake Centuri V-2 kits on ebay and out of Sport Rocketry years back? I heard that the BMS mark was still there on the base of the nose cone.

Robert

Ltvscout
10-19-2007, 11:22 AM
Scott is correct. I have some of the old mail order sales lists and auctions held by Centuri and Danny Sagstetter, and others... Buying at club launches, old hobby shop inventory, and of course ebay.

And its been nearly a lifetime of collecting.

The mail order sales by Centuri were held to raise money for the US Team competing in Internats. That was for the event held for the first time in the United States... some years ago.
Robert,

If you still have the lists would you mind scanning them and posting them here for us old farts? That would be some neat nostalgia to see what stuff was going for back then. Thanks!

lurker01
10-19-2007, 11:25 AM
Robert,

If you still have the lists would you mind scanning them and posting them here for us old farts? That would be some neat nostalgia to see what stuff was going for back then. Thanks!

Scott,

Sure I will do that later this afternoon. Your jaw will drop to see what they were selling and how inexpensive and expensive some items were at the time! Danny's old lists are on r.mr.

Robert

CraigF
10-19-2007, 07:59 PM
I saved the sale prices of many mail auction items, but just the things that interested me. Many of the popular (not necessarily rare) kits sell for less nowadays than in the mid-90s. eBay has gotten more stuff out there, not just limited to what those still into rocketry have. And many kits sell for somewhat more now, especially some of the bigger boxed kits that spiked when they were barely OOP.

Don't mean to sound *too* ignorant, but what is a GT-3? It sounded like something I might have built, but it was a Gemini-Titan instead. That was the most expensive rocket kit I have ever bought, years ago, I was shocked when I looked up how much I paid! Must have really wanted it, didn't realise how simple the kit was I guess. I have heard the newer Estes version of it is much less common than the original Estes version, but I have no idea, maybe more people just saved the older ones and built the newer ones instead?

I know this is kinda OT, but it is something that has been bugging me for years, and hard-core collectors would have some thoughts: why don't people warn others in the hobby forums when there's a problematical item up for auction on eBay? Is it a legal issue, or just plain rude to do it?? I have never said anything because nobody else does (I don't mean just rocketry). It bothers me to see an item go for a highish price when I know it's problematical, the price is none of my business, but if the item is not as represented (seller usually portrays a patina of ignorance), is that none of my business too? Probably not, caveat emptor, but it still bugs me...

How hard would it be nowadays to duplicate a rare header, if you first had a legitimate one in some form of course? I know people have been for years duplicating full color boxes for various model kits and toys where a mint box is worth as much or more than the contents. Re-shrink-wrapping is a joke in comparison. What's in that vintage shrink-wrapped box? Are you sure? You know the street scam for common items, but in that case you find out when you get home. A hard-core collector might never open that shrink-wrapped box.

Sorry for rambling, but you guys' posts reminded me of some incidents.

Edit: I hope this is not too boring and OT, but I'm an oldish fart, the type who when his memory gets jogged by something somebody says/writes, suddenly remembers all sorts of not-exactly-relevant things... Problematical things I've seen on eBay quite recently: kit with several plastic NCs when it came with balsa ones; allegedly complete kit clearly missing one whole half of the vacu-formed body (let's see you duplicate that); kit with replacement white BTs instead of the (admittedly crappy) blue ones it came with; kit with replacement chute instead of the special one it came with (the only part of the kit not easily cloned). Not a big deal for a builder in most cases, but these kits did not exactly sell at a modern clone price so I have to assume they had some collectibility quotient to the purchaser. Part of the problem is many people these days do not distinguish between original and "looks the same" or "works the same" in anything at all...amateurs, LOL. Or maybe not, and just passing along their mistakes.

CPMcGraw
10-20-2007, 12:34 AM
...Don't mean to sound *too* ignorant, but what is a GT-3? It sounded like something I might have built, but it was a Gemini-Titan instead...

It's the Estes K-21 version of Gemini-Titan #3, representing the Grissom-Young flight that initiated the Gemini program. The capsule was named "Molly Brown", as in "The Unsinkable...", referring back to his lost Mercury capsule Liberty Bell.

lurker01
10-20-2007, 11:10 PM
I saved the sale prices of many mail auction items, but just the things that interested me. Many of the popular (not necessarily rare) kits sell for less nowadays than in the mid-90s. eBay has gotten more stuff out there, not just limited to what those still into rocketry have. And many kits sell for somewhat more now, especially some of the bigger boxed kits that spiked when they were barely OOP.

Don't mean to sound *too* ignorant, but what is a GT-3? It sounded like something I might have built, but it was a Gemini-Titan instead. That was the most expensive rocket kit I have ever bought, years ago, I was shocked when I looked up how much I paid! Must have really wanted it, didn't realise how simple the kit was I guess. I have heard the newer Estes version of it is much less common than the original Estes version, but I have no idea, maybe more people just saved the older ones and built the newer ones instead?

I know this is kinda OT, but it is something that has been bugging me for years, and hard-core collectors would have some thoughts: why don't people warn others in the hobby forums when there's a problematical item up for auction on eBay? Is it a legal issue, or just plain rude to do it?? I have never said anything because nobody else does (I don't mean just rocketry). It bothers me to see an item go for a highish price when I know it's problematical, the price is none of my business, but if the item is not as represented (seller usually portrays a patina of ignorance), is that none of my business too? Probably not, caveat emptor, but it still bugs me...

How hard would it be nowadays to duplicate a rare header, if you first had a legitimate one in some form of course? I know people have been for years duplicating full color boxes for various model kits and toys where a mint box is worth as much or more than the contents. Re-shrink-wrapping is a joke in comparison. What's in that vintage shrink-wrapped box? Are you sure? You know the street scam for common items, but in that case you find out when you get home. A hard-core collector might never open that shrink-wrapped box.

Sorry for rambling, but you guys' posts reminded me of some incidents.

Edit: I hope this is not too boring and OT, but I'm an oldish fart, the type who when his memory gets jogged by something somebody says/writes, suddenly remembers all sorts of not-exactly-relevant things... Problematical things I've seen on eBay quite recently: kit with several plastic NCs when it came with balsa ones; allegedly complete kit clearly missing one whole half of the vacu-formed body (let's see you duplicate that); kit with replacement white BTs instead of the (admittedly crappy) blue ones it came with; kit with replacement chute instead of the special one it came with (the only part of the kit not easily cloned). Not a big deal for a builder in most cases, but these kits did not exactly sell at a modern clone price so I have to assume they had some collectibility quotient to the purchaser. Part of the problem is many people these days do not distinguish between original and "looks the same" or "works the same" in anything at all...amateurs, LOL. Or maybe not, and just passing along their mistakes.


Craig,

There have been fakes on the market. The Centuri V-2 kits that were being sold on the internet and mail order out of the Sport Rocketry magazine years back. Then there have been people who advertise a 'K' kit and it turns out to be a skill level kit with both the K and skil level designation on it. Then there are those that open and reseal kits, and trust me brother some of the 'big names' in competition and manufacturing have pulled this stunt, but because they are 'revered' in the hobby, they can't be touched. Trust me, there are those who sell that I will NEVER again buy from, and I don't care if they are selling the brain of Stine or Estes.

Its an art form to determine if a kit has been reshrinkwrapped. There are ways of checking:

1)The older the wrap, the less flexible it is. It will have a rigid feel where it is bunched up

2)The box will have a bow to it. Over time, shrinkwrap keeps on shrinking...

3)In the corners, the shrinkwrap should have punched through the corners and the corners show wear. A newly shrinkwrapped box won't show this.

On a forum a guy mentioned taking your shrinkwrapped items to the airport and giving the X-Ray operator $5 to run your kit through the machine; its a hit and miss proposition.

Also look for finger prints, smudges, and ware under the shrink wrap. I purchased a Saturn 1B (centuri in the white box) from a well known and revered rocketeer. Under the shrinkwrap was black paint finger prints. He had sold me the kit as a factory sealed kit. First thing I did was take off the shrinkwrap and saw a partially started and painted Sat 1B. Took me 4 months to finally get my money back. But see this person is in the 'Inner circle' of rocketeer/manufacturers, so he can't be touched ... that is the way of life :(

I would suggest that if you buy shrinkwrapped items, open them, check inventory and condition, then reshrink the item. As you get to know sellers, then you can afford to let your guard down with the honest sellers.

Its a tough market, and I think even more so with model rockets. I collect other items, and I would say that model rockets are the toughest item to collect. Not so much because of supply and demand, as model rocketry is a VERY small segment of the hobby industry, but based on the fragility of model rockets and the small yet zealot group of collectors. That GT-3 (you now know what it means) can set a collector back $400+ yet a signed von Braun letter (much rarer and harder to come by) will often sell for $100 less! Its mind boggling at times.

When I buy, I spend several minutes going over the kit. I rotate the tube in the bag as some sellers rotate the tubes to hide creases or dents. I lift up the flaps of the hag tag and see if there was some other tag or opening prior to the tag being added. I remember one case where the bag had been opened and then resealed on a K kit. It was obvious as the parachute inside was from the 1980s and the kill had been discontinued in the late 60s/ early 70s. You just have to be careful.

Robert

P.s. I haven't forgotten about that list.

Ltvscout
10-22-2007, 12:15 AM
There have been fakes on the market. The Centuri V-2 kits that were being sold on the internet and mail order out of the Sport Rocketry magazine years back. Then there have been people who advertise a 'K' kit and it turns out to be a skill level kit with both the K and skil level designation on it. Then there are those that open and reseal kits, and trust me brother some of the 'big names' in competition and manufacturing have pulled this stunt, but because they are 'revered' in the hobby, they can't be touched. Trust me, there are those who sell that I will NEVER again buy from, and I don't care if they are selling the brain of Stine or Estes.
So, do you buy a lot from Tim Joyce? ;)

Do you know Mack Yocum and Neil Tarasoff?

CraigF
10-22-2007, 06:15 PM
lurker01: It's pretty obvious you're experienced. I have never really had the opportunity to examine a "vintage" kit before buying, I don't have anything truly vintage anyway. It's people who feign ignorance (like opened kit completeness, when there's a parts list right there) who I won't buy from. Would rather the person said "missing the ...pieces". These people usually give themselves away by not guaranteeing completeness (as is) a little too much, when checking takes about a minute...I don't for a minute believe they're that stupid.

That is incredibly shabby that that person committed outright fraud. You really should have outed him. He is one of those who probably thought the kit was going to a collector who'd never open the shrinkwrap. That type of person will use their "reputation" to make it seem like they're the victim of *your* fraud, and everybody will believe *them*.

I think shrinkwrap on a kit is way over-rated, for the reasons you mentioned. If I was a (serious??) collector I'd be in a real quandary over it. Just looking at a closed box wouldn't be much fun for me...

Scott: I remember Neil and Tim. Don't know if I ever bought anything from them, too long ago for me. Have they disappeared from the scene?

If anyone wants to start a hall of rocketry rogues, or eBay rocketry scammers, I'll host the list (since I'm in a foreign country). It can be done very politely/discretely, but also so that those who know what they're looking at will know what it is...

Rocket Doctor
10-22-2007, 06:23 PM
Estes has used a variety of bags over the years. You cannot go by that, as mentioned before, when a bag was available, it was used.

One clue though, look at the last page of the instructions on the bottom right hand corner, that will give a part number and date that the instructions were printed, that doesn't mean too much, because once the instruction sheet is printed, thats it.

lurker01
10-22-2007, 10:17 PM
Robert,

If you still have the lists would you mind scanning them and posting them here for us old farts? That would be some neat nostalgia to see what stuff was going for back then. Thanks!


Scott,

Here is the list, enjoy: http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?p=27691#post27691

Robert

mojo1986
10-23-2007, 05:09 PM
Robert...............I was just rereading some of the posts to this thread and came across your reference to the blue Estes hang tag that you thought you might have on a Falcon. If you can ever dig that kit out I would very much appreciate it if you could post a photo. I have definitely never seen such a tag.

Joe

Ltvscout
11-26-2007, 05:12 PM
So, do you buy a lot from Tim Joyce? ;)

Do you know Mack Yocum and Neil Tarasoff?
I just wanted to clear up what may be some confusion. I was not implying in my reply above to Robert that Mack or Neil do anything underhanded. I was just wondering if Robert knew them since they are collectors as well.

Now, Tim Joyce is another story. ;)

Leo
11-26-2007, 05:42 PM
Is everyone talking about this kind of blue hang tag?

http://www.leo.nutz.de/images/rockets/farside_s.jpg

mojo1986
11-27-2007, 06:00 PM
Leo, that's a Skill Level hangtag, and it's the only one that was ever produced in blue, to the best of my knowledge. Someone (I don't recall who, I think it might have been Lurker) suggested that the 'double oval' hangtag introduced in the early seventies and commonly seen in yellow (and less frequently in red) was also produced in blue. If so, it must be very rare. I have never seen one.

Joe

ddmobley
01-03-2008, 01:58 PM
Mike Mauer's website that Phred got this info of off used to still be accessible via the wayback machine at archive.org. The domain was www.modelrockets.com (http://www.modelrockets.com/). Unfortunately, it appears that Darrell over at RocketryPlanet has bought the domain and now the info is gone. If you try hitting that domain on archive.org it just takes you to Darrell's uHostMe server page. :(The information you are looking for is at:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050619081405/http://www.model-rockets.com/estes.htm

Scott was referencing modelrockets.com, not model-rockets.com. :D

Ltvscout
01-03-2008, 02:03 PM
The information you are looking for is at:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050619081405/http://www.model-rockets.com/estes.htm

Scott was referencing modelrockets.com, not model-rockets.com. :D
You are correct, Sir. Sorry about the mixup. :o

Rustee
01-26-2008, 12:15 AM
Hi,i was just reading about tags,and I picked this up at the LHS on Wednesday. A great find,but what year and rarity would this be? Does the "Distributed in Canada..." stuff appear on all the tags? Now I have to decide to save or build...Thanks.

barone
01-26-2008, 05:48 AM
Hi,i was just reading about tags,and I picked this up at the LHS on Wednesday. A great find,but what year and rarity would this be? Does the "Distributed in Canada..." stuff appear on all the tags? Now I have to decide to save or build...Thanks.
Gee, I wish I knew where that hobby shop was..... ;)