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zrs4
12-01-2007, 07:19 PM
I know this is a long shot, but anyone have a plastic estes titan II or gemini titan thruster set i can buy/rent/borrow/bribe in order to cast some duplicates???

i plan on using rubber mold and resin castings..i would like to make exact castings of this in order to clone some of these kits as closely as possible.

i am zrs4 on ebay, if you want to see my buyer reputation..

maybe we can make a trade? i have over 200 built 1/72 display models of WWII and cold war airplanes..if you have something you are looking for--or i have electric r/c stuff i can trade also???


ive been keeping an eye on ebay--but the last titan II went for over 100 and i missed it..the titan III thrusters look a lot smaller..what i'd like to get hold of is that cool look of the gemini titan booster thrusters..

Eagle3
12-01-2007, 08:43 PM
I might have a spare. I'll go rifle through my stuff and let you know via a PM.

sandman
12-01-2007, 08:49 PM
I'm not real sure what you mean by "thrusters".

Do you mean the engines?

I found some 1/72 scale kits. You may be able to scale up the parts.

If it's just the engines I could probably fabricate them and some of the rear end detail parts for you to use as masters.

barone
12-01-2007, 10:26 PM
I'm not real sure what you mean by "thrusters".

Do you mean the engines?

I found some 1/72 scale kits. You may be able to scale up the parts.

If it's just the engines I could probably fabricate them and some of the rear end detail parts for you to use as masters.
Oh the memories I have when I see a picture like that.... ;)

zrs4
12-01-2007, 10:46 PM
yes indeed--its the engines --the special look of the engines on the titan . The picture shows my desk model.

the ones on the estes model would be a really nice way for us to cast some using the original mold for cloning..so that would give us the most difficult parts, the nose cone, and plastics for the engine..

the nose cone you make looks more accurate than the original in my opinion sandman

for the engines --one casting kit would give about 10-12 sets at least..probably more--im sure it would take me at least a week to get it done just because i have a screwy schedule right now--but i could have the supplies in hand and the parts made within a week..

the weight of resin wouldnt be a problem because they are for display only..

if i dont find any --i will just wait for another titan II to show up on ebay..my heart is set on the ones from the kit because of that certain look that they have.

zrs4
12-01-2007, 10:55 PM
Sandman-thats a really good reference photo--did you take that?? Wow!

sandman
12-02-2007, 09:18 AM
Sandman-thats a really good reference photo--did you take that?? Wow!

No, not me. Just a yahoo search.

http://img.search.yahoo.com/search/images?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-&p=Titan%20II

snuggles
12-02-2007, 04:39 PM
I have an old set of display nozzles for the Estes Titan III.
Will those work???
Mark T

zrs4
12-02-2007, 07:04 PM
i appreciate it but the ones i am looking for are for the titan II...which look just like the gemini titan

if you would like to sell the titan III nozzles please let me know though--i would be very interested still--

please send me info on what you would like for them and when you could ship them??

Tim

zrs4
12-03-2007, 12:14 PM
you guys rock!

Within 2 days I had several offers of help

And the exact parts I needed!!

It doest get any better than that.


THANKS!!!

Rocketking
12-04-2007, 08:11 AM
These 'Nozzles' are Anything but scale- It uses a single post and 'Tee' type arrangement to fasten to the mounting plate. The original engines were separate up to the booster body.

Just wanted you to know.

kurtschachner
12-04-2007, 08:42 AM
Here is a really cool site that has (among other things) a section on Titan II engines:

http://www.enginehistory.org/

The Titan engines are here:

http://www.enginehistory.org/titan_ii.htm

Also check out the section on the SSME and the PDF articles written by Robert Biggs:

http://www.enginehistory.org/ssme.htm

Good reading, especially the article on the startup sequence!

barone
12-04-2007, 10:59 AM
Nice pictures. They used to pump the fuel through the nozzles to keep them cool. You can see the cooling tubes in the picture showing the thrust chamber.

zrs4
12-07-2007, 02:22 AM
if anyone has a blow molded gemini or titan capsule to fit a BT-60, i would really like to get hold of one more..it would be very interesting to compare the titan II estes with the scale drawings..

eagle has me set up with the engines--Thanks !

The engines were dead ringers for the topping desk model titan made in akron ohio..at least until you get to the part where they are joined together..

after i make more scale engines etc --it will be easy to get a few of these made


tim

sandman
12-07-2007, 08:17 AM
Not blow molded but I have done the Gemini in many scales.

I found this drawing of the engines. It's the best I've seen.

rocketguy101
12-07-2007, 07:32 PM
Here are some pics I took while touring the Titan Missle Museum in Tucson AZ last summer

rocketguy101
12-07-2007, 07:34 PM
here is a view up inside the nozzle showing the injector plate

rocketguy101
12-07-2007, 07:35 PM
semi-side view

rocketguy101
12-07-2007, 07:40 PM
this view shows the prop inlet lines. the inlet line with a blue tag on it had a locked valve that was one of the final "safeing" mechanisms to prevent accidental launch. a code had to be entered from the control room before the missle would launch. if an incorrect code was entered, everything shut down and the missle had to be opened up to have this valve replaced.

if you ever get a chance to go through the museum, go for it! there is a tour that allows you to go underneath (get a view like Sandman's pic :) ) but it held at a special time, and we weren't there for that.

barone
12-07-2007, 09:33 PM
Not blow molded but I have done the Gemini in many scales.

I found this drawing of the engines. It's the best I've seen.
Gordon,

I can't tell from the gif but the drawing looks like it came out of the technical data for the Titan II (it was called the -1 (dash one....can't remember the whole tech order number...been a few years.. :o )

this view shows the prop inlet lines. the inlet line with a blue tag on it had a locked valve that was one of the final "safeing" mechanisms to prevent accidental launch. a code had to be entered from the control room before the missle would launch. if an incorrect code was entered, everything shut down and the missle had to be opened up to have this valve replaced.
That was called the butterfly lock. It was actually used to prevent an unauthorized launch as opposed to an accidental launch. If I remember correctly (again, it's been some years) you had two attempts to enter the correct unlock code, then an explosive quip would make the lock inoperable. The launch crew actually had a procedure to manually unlock the valve, but you had to wait 36 hours after the the valve was blown. The cover for the butterfly valve lock was also rigged with explosives to prevent tampering. During the launch crew procedure to open the valve, a hatchet is used to remove the cover (yep, glad I didn't have to do that one..... :eek: )

Got some fond memories....and some scary ones....

rocketguy101
12-07-2007, 09:39 PM
That was called the butterfly lock. It was actually used to prevent an unauthorized launch as opposed to an accidental launch. ...

Got some fond memories....and some scary ones....

Sorry Don...you're right those are the words the tour guide used--unauthorized...I forgot his term in my haste to post.

I grew up in Tucson, passed by these sites nearly everyday in the 60s. Remember the "duck and cover" drills at school. It was pretty creepy looking down from top side and seeing the nose of the Titan looking up at me!

rocketguy101
12-07-2007, 09:42 PM
This is the code entry panel for the butterfly lock...look familiar Don? ;)

barone
12-07-2007, 10:09 PM
This is the code entry panel for the butterfly lock...look familiar Don? ;)
Yep, that's it. My job (among others) was to enter the unlock codes once they were decrypted. The panels underneath the butterfly valve lock control panel was called the CMG (you can read the long words in the picture... :D ). I monitored the launch sequence at that panel. The entire launch sequence from turning of the keys to lift off was less than 60 seconds. The longest portion was the 21 second wait for the silo closure door to open. If anything happened to give us a launch hold, we could use the indicator lights to troubleshoot and make the necessary repairs to launch. One repair that always got me was if the sound attenuating water valve failed to open (the water was required to dampen the vibrations from the engines). We had to physically go down nine levels to manually open the valve. Once opened, there was a very short time to turn keys. In the simulator, we always made it back....in real life, I doubt that we would...the missile would probably launch while we were still in the equipment area (but, theoretically, we wouldn't get hurt.... ;) )

rocketguy101
12-07-2007, 11:15 PM
Here are some links about the Titan Missile Museum

Titan Missile Museum (http://www.titanmissilemuseum.org/)

Titan II ICBM Web Page (http://www.titan2icbm.org/index.html)

atomic tourist (http://www.atomictourist.com/titan.htm)

pictures from a tour (http://www.bigwaste.com/photos/az/titan/)

barone
12-08-2007, 12:13 AM
Here are some links about the Titan Missile Museum

Titan Missile Museum (http://www.titanmissilemuseum.org/)

Titan II ICBM Web Page (http://www.titan2icbm.org/index.html)

atomic tourist (http://www.atomictourist.com/titan.htm)

pictures from a tour (http://www.bigwaste.com/photos/az/titan/)
Thanks David....Can't beleive they offer overnighters to people. Heck, we couldn't wait to get out the next day ;)

By the way, I did read the tour story......You could start the launch sequence without the keys....(still need the unlock code though), and you could stop the launch sequence just by pushing the "SHUTDOWN" button.

Did they tell you that the missile skin was only 1/4 inch thick? The one that blew up in Arkansas had a maintenance team drop a socket from the top of the missile, it fell and bounced off the thrust mount and into the bottom of the lower fuel tank (UDMH). That didn't cause the explosion though....the fuel leaked out, creating a vacuum in the tank, the sides collapsed (similar to waht happens when you have a full plastic milk jug and turn it over to drain) causing the upper stage to fall against either the wall of the silo or a work platform, puncturing and oxidizer tank. Well, the fuel and oxidizer are hypergolic (ignite on contact), so the fuel vapor in the launch duct mixed with the now leaking oxidizer and cause a big boom......The closed silo clousure door (750 tons) was blown over 100 yards from the silo (well, the biggest chuck that was left). Luckily, only one person died, it could have been much worst. He was one of the PTS (propellant transfer systems) maintenance people dispatched to assess the problem. The blast ripped his protective suit off and he ended up breathing some of the oxidizer. It formed an acid when mixed with water/moisture in his lungs.

Yep, some fond memories and some scary ones.....

rocketguy101
12-08-2007, 12:41 AM
Thanks David....Can't beleive they offer overnighters to people. Heck, we couldn't wait to get out the next day ;)

By the way, I did read the tour story......You could start the launch sequence without the keys....(still need the unlock code though), and you could stop the launch sequence just by pushing the "SHUTDOWN" button.

Did they tell you that the missile skin was only 1/4 inch thick? The one that blew up in Arkansas had a maintenance team drop a socket from the top of the missile, it fell and bounced off the thrust mount and into the bottom of the lower fuel tank (UDMH). That didn't cause the explosion though....the fuel leaked out, creating a vacuum in the tank, the sides collapsed (similar to waht happens when you have a full plastic milk jug and turn it over to drain) causing the upper stage to fall against either the wall of the silo or a work platform, puncturing and oxidizer tank. Well, the fuel and oxidizer are hypergolic (ignite on contact), so the fuel vapor in the launch duct mixed with the now leaking oxidizer and cause a big boom......The closed silo clousure door (750 tons) was blown over 100 yards from the silo (well, the biggest chuck that was left). Luckily, only one person died, it could have been much worst. He was one of the PTS (propellant transfer systems) maintenance people dispatched to assess the problem. The blast ripped his protective suit off and he ended up breathing some of the oxidizer. It formed an acid when mixed with water/moisture in his lungs.

Yep, some fond memories and some scary ones.....

I don't recall our guide mentioning the skin thickness--I saw some Titans being assembled back in '70 or '71 and could not believe how thin the skin was, and how they chemically milled some spots even thinner!

Our TMM guide told us the keys were required as we went through a simulated launch. He also stated that once the sequence started, nothing could shut it down ("There is no ooops button"). So I am glad to hear there actually was a way to shut down, if needed--I was having severe Dr. Strangelove visions after that tour!!

Here is a pic of the display discussing the Arkansas accident, and a socket similar to the one you mention.

There is a story in "Chariots for Apollo" about a rocket technician filling out a report, and apparently clicked his pen on the tank, punctured it's skin, causing a high pressure leak. Searchers found his pen, and a nub of bone embedded in a fence post! So yeah, rocket skins are thin!

barone
12-08-2007, 01:00 AM
I went on alert (that's what our duty shift was called) the next day after the exlosion. There was a lot of somber faces in the pre-departure briefing. That particular site was one of the longest from the base. In Arizona, the trips may have been 20 to 40 minutes, but in Arkansas they were a little over 30 minutes for the closest site and nearly 90 for the furthest. We left base about 7 in the morning (pre-departure was at 6:45 and lasted about 15 minutes) and usually got back to base the next day between 11 and 12 (my site, the relieve crew normally arrived around 9am and the changeover usually lasted about 30 minutes unless you had some real ***holes relieving you.

Joined the Air Force to see the world. Spend my first 8 months in Texas, another 2 months in California, and the next 14 years in Arkansas :D Only three Titan bases in the world and once you got to one, you stayed. So, it was either Arizonia, Arkansas or Kansas.

barone
12-08-2007, 01:20 AM
Our TMM guide told us the keys were required as we went through a simulated launch. He also stated that once the sequence started, nothing could shut it down ("There is no ooops button"). So I am glad to hear there actually was a way to shut down, if needed--I was having severe Dr. Strangelove visions after that tour!!
In my earlier post, I mentioned that if something went wrong with the launch sequence, we could trouble shoot it and fix it. Well, one of the possible problems is the key doesn't work..... ;)

Oh yeah. That shutdown button was good until you got liftoff. Of course, once the engines fire, and you press "SHUTDOWN", it's gonna be hard to re-start them. Can't remember for sure but I think the thrust had to be something like 98% before the hold down bolts blew to give the liftoff light. (darn...I'm starting to remember too much, visions of the long cableway and launch duct access doors.....)

rocketguy101
12-08-2007, 10:00 AM
Joined the Air Force to see the world. Spend my first 8 months in Texas, another 2 months in California, and the next 14 years in Arkansas :D Only three Titan bases in the world and once you got to one, you stayed. So, it was either Arizonia, Arkansas or Kansas.

Not only that, this (see pic) was your "world"! Not much sunshine down there baby!

barone
12-08-2007, 10:16 AM
Not only that, this (see pic) was your "world"! Not much sunshine down there baby!
LOL...no, not much. But we did have TV (no cable). Eventually we had VCPs (couldn't have any type of recording device). Constant drone of the equipment...some of the noise was dampened when they finally installed carpeting (control center level 1 and 2 only). After shift verifications, nothing really much to do but sit around, eating and watching TV. Boring. Couldn't go anywhere. Could go topside if you wanted to but nothing up there but rocks....but it was quieter.... ;)

moonzero2
12-08-2007, 10:32 AM
Very interesting discussion,... keep the stories coming.

rocketguy101
12-08-2007, 10:42 AM
So Don, how often did you go into the silo (or did you?). The TMM display shows two mannequins in hazmat suits "fueling" the Titan. The guides said there was a 4 man crew, and most of the time everybody had to travel in twos (I guess the crew quarters were the only place you could be alone?). Did the crew on alert service the missle, or did another crew come out for that?

rocketguy101
12-08-2007, 10:52 AM
The TMM guides said that crews would be randomly selected to have "their" bird pulled from the silo, and everybody went to Vandenburg to actually fire the missle from a silo there. Did you ever get to actually launch?

barone
12-08-2007, 11:29 AM
So Don, how often did you go into the silo (or did you?). The TMM display shows two mannequins in hazmat suits "fueling" the Titan. The guides said there was a 4 man crew, and most of the time everybody had to travel in twos (I guess the crew quarters were the only place you could be alone?). Did the crew on alert service the missle, or did another crew come out for that?
Well, every alert, the entire complex was checked and inspected from the time you got to the gate. The on-coming crew would inspect topside before coming below ground and then inspect the equipment as they progressed to the control center. Once there, a changeover briefing was conducted. This allowed the off-going crew to brief the on-coming crew on the status of the missile and the complex. The crew officers would inventory the "cookies", launch authentication codes, while an enlisted member from each crew went to the silo to check to make sure the missile was still there....LOL.

After the crew changeover, the new duty crew would check every piece of equipment from the control center to the silo (three levels in the control center and 9 levels in the silo). So yes, every alert, you went to the silo and every alert you got to see the missile. Some of the daily inspections included testing circuits like war head continuity and verifying the proper target was selected.

Periodically, there were other test conducted.....missile verifications that tested missile circuits and launch verification that actually simulated launch. During the launch similations, the silo door function and the water duluge could be simulated or actually performed. If they were performed, we had special requirements. For the door, someone had to be topside to verify the door closed and of course, make sure theie were no bad guys. Door couldn't be opened until it was verified we didn't have a foreign satellite overhead. For the water function, we had to close a water valve to make sure we didn't dump all the water during the test. Afterwards, we 'd go check the blast deflector to make sure there was some water (the water between the manual valve and the automatic valve would be dumped into the deflector.

The manequins in the "fuel" handler suites (they were actually called RFECO {rocket fuel handlers evironmental containment} suits) were the people who actually fueled or defuled the missile. The missile was always "loaded" while on alert. But uf they were doing some kinds of missile maintenance, the missile would have to be defueled and that's what they did.

The crew was comprised of 4 people, two officers and two enlisted. The MCCC (missile combat crew commander) was responsible for the complex. The DMCCC (deputy missile combat crew commander) was the second in command and normally handled communications. Both were officers and both were responsible for the EWO (emergency war orders) that generated the complex to advance states of readiness and eventual missile launch. The enlisted crew members were the MSAT (missile systems analyst technician) who was responsible for basically the missile and launch functions (that was my job) and the MFT (missile facilities technician) who was responsible for all the supposrt equipment. If you were on crew long enough, you could operate in any position while on alert, but the MCCC and the DMCCC were the only ones who could access the launch codes and execute the mission.

I'll pass on some more info later....gotta take my wife Christmas shopping. maybe I'll pick me up something... :D

Ltvscout
12-08-2007, 12:36 PM
Not only that, this (see pic) was your "world"! Not much sunshine down there baby!
What is that "tube" thing on the far left of the illustration?

Ltvscout
12-08-2007, 12:40 PM
Don,

Was there any radiation leakage from the warheads that you had to worry about or was that shielded well enough to not be a problem?

rocketguy101
12-08-2007, 01:53 PM
What is that "tube" thing on the far left of the illustration?

IIRC, the museum tour guide told us that was a fresh air shaft (Don please correct me if I misunderstood).

In the attached Google Earth view, the silo itself is the big square near the center of the pic. The door is half-open (and blocked that way, part of a treaty w/ Russia!)

The bluish building towards the bottom is the museum building (the guides told us when they started building it, the Russians got nervous when their satphotos showed activity at this site!)

Just north of the museum building is the entrance to the silo/control room (bottom side?). I believe the air shaft is the square object to the left, (bottom-left corner of the site).

The four or five objects around the missle silo were added as museum displays--they were not present when the site was active, according to the TMM guides. At 5 o'clock is a fueling trailer. At 2:30 position is the Titan engine display where I took the earlier pictures. I don't remember what were at the other stations, because by then I got a glimpse down the silo and saw the "war head" looking up!!!

It is definitely worth going to visit if you are near Tucson. Our tour was about an hour long. I wish our timing had been better to go on the extended tours.

Don, I would like to thank you and the other service members who stood on station. People who aren't old enough to have lived through those times don't realize what it felt like to have that nuclear hammer hanging over our heads. You guys served as deterent to prevent anything stupid from happening.

Like the plaque in the foyer states "Protection Through Power"!

They have a glass cover over the silo, and you stand on a porch-like stand, so you can lean over to look in--very creepy.

barone
12-08-2007, 03:37 PM
What is that "tube" thing on the far left of the illustration?
That was an air intake shaft for the control center. It also doubled as the emergency exit. There was a grate across the top of it and it had a hasp that was locked from the inside. One of our trick training procedures was to do an emergency escape but when you got to the grate, you can't get out because you forgot to get the key from the key box.... :rolleyes:

barone
12-08-2007, 03:40 PM
Don,

Was there any radiation leakage from the warheads that you had to worry about or was that shielded well enough to not be a problem?
They told us that we didn't have to worry about any radiation leakage, so, being the good military disciplined airmen we were, we didn't. But, when working in the launch duct near the RV (re-entry vehicle or warhead), they wanted us to try to keep a minimum of 18" distance from it. I don't think it affected me any. I don't think it affected me any. I don't think it affected me any. :rolleyes:

barone
12-08-2007, 03:56 PM
Don, I would like to thank you and the other service members who stood on station. People who aren't old enough to have lived through those times don't realize what it felt like to have that nuclear hammer hanging over our heads. You guys served as deterent to prevent anything stupid from happening.

Like the plaque in the foyer states "Protection Through Power"!

They have a glass cover over the silo, and you stand on a porch-like stand, so you can lean over to look in--very creepy.
All in a days work ;)

The entrance to the underground complex is just north of the museum building as stated. Something interesting, all Titan II complexes were oriented the same way. All the silo clousure doors opened to the west. In your google image, you can see where the door tracks were, west of the door...looks like those may be the concrete blocks they are using to keep the door from opening fully (per treaty). They were railroad tracks. During the launch sequence, the door was actually raised and then rolled to the west....remember, that door weighs 750 tons.

To the north and south east are concrete stands (parking areas) for the propellant transfer tanks. Basically semi tankers that housed the fuel and oxidizer. Only one was on site at a time (either fuel or oxidizer) to minimize the likelyhood of an explosion. These were only on site during fuel transfers operations. I think the one to the south east was the fuel hardstand....it had water sprayers in case of a leak.

Directly south of the silo is the cooling pit. There were two cooling towers there to cool water used for the launch duct and silo air conditioning. If the air conditioning failed, the temperature in the launch duct would rise, causing the propellant tank pressures to rise and eventually causing a leak. Aside from a few antenna, that was about all there was topside...rather non-discript except for the chain link fence with the three strands of barbed wire on top and the signs stating using of deadly force authorized..... :rolleyes:

Ltvscout
12-08-2007, 04:21 PM
That is great info on the Titan II missile system from the POV of an airman that worked there. Thank you for sharing it with us, Don!

barone
12-08-2007, 04:24 PM
That is great info on the Titan II missile system from the POV of an airman that worked there. Thank you for sharing it with us, Don!
Had me thinking for a second there...so much military talk going on...POV in military lingo is privately owned vehicle.... :o

Ltvscout
12-08-2007, 04:30 PM
Had me thinking for a second there...so much military talk going on...POV in military lingo is privately owned vehicle.... :o
I assumed that you sit in your car with a laptop when you're posting here. :D

rocketguy101
12-09-2007, 10:14 AM
Not blow molded but I have done the Gemini in many scales.

I found this drawing of the engines. It's the best I've seen.

Sandman, do you have a higher res version of the "dwgemini1.gif" or its source?

EDIT: never mind, I think I found the source

David Weeks' Gemini Technical Drawings (http://www.apollosaturn.com/modeling/dwgemini.htm)

sandman
12-09-2007, 11:39 AM
I didn't remember where I found it.

I guess that's where. :rolleyes:

zrs4
12-09-2007, 09:48 PM
this museum is certainly a "must see".

Thank you for telling us about this--are there any good books on this subject that you would recommend as accurate and or interesting??

How about videos or documentaries..

I really would like to learn more..

Tim

rocketguy101
12-10-2007, 06:41 PM
this museum is certainly a "must see".

Thank you for telling us about this--are there any good books on this subject that you would recommend as accurate and or interesting??

How about videos or documentaries..

I really would like to learn more..

Tim

ummm, I don't know, Don may. This Titan book (http://www.titan2icbm.org/book.html) was referenced on one of the links I posted earlier.

The TMM had books and stuff for sale, but I didn't pay that much attention--I did buy a roll drawing of the missile, but it is pretty light and the print is small (it was a huge drawing reduced to 11" x ~36") Perhaps you could email the museum and ask them. The director is a former site commander.

barone
12-10-2007, 08:14 PM
ummm, I don't know, Don may. This Titan book (http://www.titan2icbm.org/book.html) was referenced on one of the links I posted earlier.

The TMM had books and stuff for sale, but I didn't pay that much attention--I did buy a roll drawing of the missile, but it is pretty light and the print is small (it was a huge drawing reduced to 11" x ~36") Perhaps you could email the museum and ask them. The director is a former site commander.
I haven't seen or heard any thing about the Titan IIs. I was going to write the museum director to see if they digitized the -1 and see if I could get a copy. All those checklists.....also had some descriptions of the systems, both support and missile.

barone
12-12-2007, 02:02 PM
http://www.strategic-air-command.com/missiles/Titan/Titan_II_missile_complex.htm

http://www.techbastard.com/missile/titan2/

http://www.titan2icbm.org/

http://www.titan-ii.com/

http://asuwlink.uwyo.edu/~jimkirk/titan2.html

http://encyclopediaofarkansas.net/encyclopedia/entry-detail.aspx?entryID=2543

zrs4
12-24-2007, 12:04 AM
so far i have made some of these units, and am getting better at it now.

thanks for the links --these have been very useful to get some education on this subject..

Hey--i also found that the Titan III has these exact same engines as the gemini and titan estes kit, but the built display engine titan III unit doesnt attach to the bottom of the rocket like the 80's gemini where it was interchangable with the fin unit.

sandman
12-24-2007, 09:18 AM
look what I found in my "junk"!

I didn't even realize I had it.

zrs4
12-24-2007, 04:44 PM
those are the ones sandman!

Now I have 2 sets plus copies so

I'm all set here, but I would hang

On to those..also if you want to sell

Them I would be glad to buy them!

Tim