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View Full Version : Okay, I've got to ask . . .


AKPilot
01-22-2008, 03:28 PM
RD,

Having followed your departure from Estes and the ensuing speculation unfold on this forum and another, as to why you departed . . . what's the reason, rationale, as to why you can't tell rocketeers as to what transpired?

Assuming you weren't terminated, did Estes have a non-diclosure type agreement with you or is it simply out of devotion to the company?

I know RoguePink had PM'd me about returning to St. Louis, but I understand he's still working for Estes.

Anything?

Thanks.

Rocket Doctor
01-23-2008, 07:27 AM
RD,

Having followed your departure from Estes and the ensuing speculation unfold on this forum and another, as to why you departed . . . what's the reason, rationale, as to why you can't tell rocketeers as to what transpired?

Assuming you weren't terminated, did Estes have a non-diclosure type agreement with you or is it simply out of devotion to the company?

I know RoguePink had PM'd me about returning to St. Louis, but I understand he's still working for Estes.

Anything?

Thanks.

First of all, Rougepink no longer works for Estes, his job was posted on the TRF last month. From what I understand, he was going to leave about nine months ago, stayed, and then left quickly.

I was an independent marketing consultant for Estes, having done trade shows, designed rockets and had my designs produced and wrote instructions and other projects.

I was asked to be the moderator of the "new" Estes forum, which started at the end of Dec 2006, the forum took off like a "rocket" with approximately 650 members in four months.

I tired to be the "conduit" between my fellow rocketeers and Estes, asking the questions on how you, the consumer wanted to see changes, new kits and improvements , and, to try to get thing changed.

I was just as surpised as all of you when the forum was taken down without any warning.

I have seen many aspects of the hobby, both positive and negative from being involved with the forum.


I appreciate the fact that Scott gave me the opportunity to continue here as the rocket Doctor.

I am also glad that I have another opportunity to continue my work with the Golden Scout project, I had invisioned a massive launch, with the Scout, painted gold in a tribute to Vern and Gleda Estes and the hobby as well.

Carl from Semroc took this a step further to take my vision and to produce the Scout kit once agin and to carry my dream and vison further by attempting to set a new world record for the amount of rockets flown in one launch.

I am very excited about this, what a fitting tribute for the 50th anniversary of the NAR and to Vern and Gleda for making this hobby possible.

I will be at NARAM and I would like to meet my fellow rocketeers from this forum there.

You can read my JOURNAL in a future issue of LAUNCH, telling how I got into the hobby, my 4 H years and beyond.

I have seen and done a lot in the 43 plus years that I have been in the hobby.

AKPilot
01-23-2008, 07:41 AM
RD,

Thanks for responding and being able to see some of your thoughts.

Still, with the clarification that you were an independent marketing consultant, back to my original question, is there a reason why you prefer not to tell people what transpired or lead to your departure from your contract with Estes?

With you being independent from Estes (not a full-time employee) is there a sense of loyalty/dedication, was there a non-disclosure agreement?

I, for one, am simply not understanding the mystique behind two individual's rapid departure - especially with both yours and Roguepinks' 'hobbyist' viewpoings and activity. You both appear to be the only ones involved with Estes that seem to be active in the hobby.

Rocket Doctor
01-23-2008, 07:56 AM
I had a hand shake agreement, I was told that "Your services are no linger needed" on April 21,2007, the day the forum officially shut down.

I had four designs slated to be produced during 2007, they were pulled as well.

a former marketing manager, who is no longer there was the beginning of the end for me, aparently, he didn't like what I was trying to accomplished and pressed the issue with management.

I am not bitter towards Estes, just amazed, someone in the know, is told, you are no longer needed.

As far as rougepink goes, I really don't know, he was very talented, and , had great visions of good thing to come.
As a matter of fact, we sat next to each other at a new products meeting going back to Oct 2006. I ptiched my stuff, and then, he pitched his.

For my own personal reasons, I cannot go into details about the events leading up to my demise.
Like they say, when one door closes, another one opens, hopefully, I can get hooked up with anothere company who will carry my visions forward. Like I mentioned previously, the Golden Scout projcet is one of my visions, that will come to light.

AKPilot
01-23-2008, 12:00 PM
Fair enough. Thanks for responding.

It's just interesting to see the evolution of Estes, especially as we head into the 50th anniversary and the, already noted, lack of involvement from Estes with NAR events.

Rocket Doctor
01-23-2008, 12:02 PM
I tried to change that...........but go shot down, oh,well, at least I tried.

ghrocketman
01-23-2008, 01:45 PM
It must have been extremely frustrating for you to supply them with lots of great ideas that would benefit real rocket hobbyists (not toy buyers) to only have them repeatedly shot down.

If Estes was only 50% as responsive to good ideas/requests as Semroc is they would be a great company.

Rocket Doctor
01-23-2008, 02:45 PM
That's the problem, they don't want to know from those who know!!!

ghrocketman
01-23-2008, 03:06 PM
It sounds like they only wanted suggestions if it was what they wanted to hear, not what people really want.
Short-term vision such as this is good for quarterly balance sheets by selling lots at Wal-Mart, but is dismal for long-term performance due to virtually zero long-term customer retention.
They have long term customer retention due to motor sales only because there is no real competition to them for BP motors.
I'd bet Aerotech's balance sheet looks much better than Estes' and they actually respond to customer motor wants....they often have MORE motor selections than customers actually want.

cas2047
01-23-2008, 03:46 PM
That's the problem, they don't want to know from those who know!!!

Very true.

When the forum was unceremoniously yanked down without any reason whatsoever I remember coming to the conclusion that Estes must not really need or want input from true modelers and/or builders. They churn out engines, a bunch of plastic starter sets and the occasional bring back, and that’s it. It must make them plenty of money, and I guess they aren't interested in deviating too much from that course.

It really does make me appreciate all of the smaller vendors that provide those of us who are looking for a challenge with what we need to keep us interested and engaged.

Estes does play their part, getting folks interested in the hobby and providing engines for countless launches. I personally think they could do much more though.

Rocket Doctor
01-23-2008, 03:58 PM
My thinking has changed. If I hit the lottery, I wanted to buy estes and make changes, but, I would buy it to get the eninge manufacturing.

I think that my best investment would be in smaller companies, like Semroc, who care about their customers, their needs and give great customer service.

I always wanted to start my own model rocket company, but, i just don't have the capital to do that............darn it!!!!

cas2047
01-23-2008, 04:11 PM
I think that my best investment would be in smaller companies, like Semroc, who care about their customers, their needs and give great customer service.

When first getting back into rocketry as a BAR I was obsessed with Estes kits. I purchased a ton on ebay and have built many of the classics I either built or wanted to build as a kid.

However I've come to realize that there are other companies out there who, as you point out, care about what customers want and provide outstanding customer service and products. I find myself more and more purchasing from those companies, and Semroc is at the top of that list.


I always wanted to start my own model rocket company, but, i just don't have the capital to do that............darn it!!!!

Keep the dream alive RD! You never know what tomorrow will bring. :)

cas2047
01-23-2008, 04:13 PM
By the way RD you did a fantastic job with the Estes forum. It provided a lot of fun and excitement while it lasted.

I think Estes made a huge mistake pulling it down.

johnnwwa
01-23-2008, 06:28 PM
That's the problem, they don't want to know from those who know!!!

Those that know, you know. Don't want to know what you know,because you know more than they know ..... You know what I mean :D

Oh and my number 1 Bring Back To Estes is...........



VERN ESTES



enough said.

Unless of course, if you win the Lottery :)



BAR
John

Rocket Doctor
01-23-2008, 07:40 PM
By the way RD you did a fantastic job with the Estes forum. It provided a lot of fun and excitement while it lasted.

I think Estes made a huge mistake pulling it down.

I enjoyed doing the Estes Forum, I put my heart and soal into it for the benefit of my fellow rocketeers.

I fought hard for change, met with much resistance, and went down in flames. At least now, I can be here with my friends and talk rockets.

I'm looking forward to NARAM 50 and the "Sky Of Gold" launch, I had invisioned it going back to 2005.

I thank everyone here for their words of encouragement.....Thanks

Rocket Doctor
01-23-2008, 07:42 PM
Those that know, you know. Don't want to know what you know,because you know more than they know ..... You know what I mean :D

Oh and my number 1 Bring Back To Estes is...........



VERN ESTES



enough said.

Unless of course, if you win the Lottery :)



BAR
John


Amen on that one !!!

Gus
01-23-2008, 08:11 PM
Rocket Doctor,

Could you tell us a little bit about how you started working for Estes?

Solomoriah
01-23-2008, 09:04 PM
If Semroc sold their own engines, they'd be perfect.

Hmm... I know the Chinese have model rocket engine manufacturing facilities, because that's where the engines for the Sky starter kits come from. Any chance a domestic company could arrange to sell those engines (and get them NAR certified, of course)?

Rocket Doctor
01-23-2008, 09:44 PM
Rocket Doctor,

Could you tell us a little bit about how you started working for Estes?

First of all, I wasn't a regular employee of Estes, rather, a independent marketing consultant. Going back to around 1972, I did a lot of promotion for Estes products with my 4 H rocket club, the Wayne Skyhawks, we made a TV promotional commercial for the Hobby Industry of America, as part of that promotion, it contained segment on model rocket (I used segments from a Cineroc in it), RC airplanes, RC boats, RC cars and crafts. It was filmed at several locations in New Jeersey. i have c sopy of that commercial and it was awarded a bronze award in judging, it was done on 16 mm film, that I had converted over to VHS. It was called "Models In Motion"

I have done other things over the years to promote the hobby in one way or another, I was very much into 4 h and helped out in many counties around the area .

Then, I would do trade shows and educational shows for Estes, in New Jersey and Pennsylvania. ?The New jeersey Science teachers convention, the PA Science Teachers Conventi0on, the East Coast Hobby Show and different schools and organizations.

I also did some project for the marketing department as well.

Finally , I got to review instructions sheets and make suggestions, eventually, I got to write instructions and make changes where needed.

Then, I submitted some of my designs, prototypes for consideration. I had the following designs produced Baby Bertha, Estes No 2 Skywriter, Screamin MiMi, Deluxe Super Shot Screw Machine, Converter and the 36 D squared. I did have four more slated to be produced, but, they were cancelled when the forum shut down.

I wrote many instructions, including all of the X Prize Instructions, Red Max Interceptor and many, many others.

Then in October 2006 I was asked to moderate the new Estes forum, by the end of Dec 2006, the Estes forum was up and running. A huge amout of member joined in the four months that it was runnig, we were up to 650 members, and covered a variety of subjects. Not only Estes rocket releated, but space in general and members own accounts of how they got into the hobby. I didn't want the forum to be so serious, just members being themselves.

A lot of great ideas and information was exchanged and i was trying to make changes for the betterment of everyone. I pushed hard to make a difference for my fellow rocketeers.
But, on April 21st, the forum was pulled down with no explanation, I was shocked, and I was told my services were no longer needed.

Now, I have been involved in other rocketry related projects, which all of you will see in a couple of months in a major publication.

And, I'm looking forward to NARAM 50 and the "Sky Of Gold" launch. I invisioned this going back to 2005, a massive launch, a record setter, with the Scout, painted gold in celebration of the 50th anniveersary of the hobby.

Carl of Senroc picked up on it and we are working hard to make this a reality.
I am working on an article regarding the first liquid fueled rocket engine company in the United States.

My goal, is to continue to promote the hobby, having been in it myself for over 43 years now, it's just a part of me now.

Rocket Doctor
01-23-2008, 09:49 PM
If Semroc sold their own engines, they'd be perfect.

Hmm... I know the Chinese have model rocket engine manufacturing facilities, because that's where the engines for the Sky starter kits come from. Any chance a domestic company could arrange to sell those engines (and get them NAR certified, of course)?

Quest motors are made in germany. You just never know what is on the horizon as far as black powder motors go, hopefully, 2008 will see competition in this field.

tbzep
01-23-2008, 10:15 PM
Somebody help me remember. Did I see someone post here or over on TRF that either Quest or Apogee bought the rights to distribute Sky motors in the US if they ever chose to export them to us? Was the post just a figament of my imagination? Even if somebody did aquire the rights, I don't see anybody investing in the cost of importing and certifying them. Sometimes businesses buy rights in order to prevent the product from getting into a competitor's hands.

BTW, I know Apogee has the Sky rocket kits, but that's a whole different ball game than the motors.

Royatl
01-24-2008, 01:10 AM
If Semroc sold their own engines, they'd be perfect.

Hmm... I know the Chinese have model rocket engine manufacturing facilities, because that's where the engines for the Sky starter kits come from. Any chance a domestic company could arrange to sell those engines (and get them NAR certified, of course)?

If all goes well, you'll probably see new Quest motors in the next few months, and I'm pretty sure they won't come from Germany, the U.S., Canada, or Mexico! I think they wanted them out by this month, but I haven't heard any news from them lately. Tried to convince Nettie that she or Bill should participate in the forums, but who knows? Maybe they're lurking.

Rocketflyer
01-24-2008, 06:52 AM
If all goes well, you'll probably see new Quest motors in the next few months, and I'm pretty sure they won't come from Germany, the U.S., Canada, or Mexico! I think they wanted them out by this month, but I haven't heard any news from them lately. .



Uhhuh, like the "Vapor D?" motor we have been waiting for... as in Coming Soon? :rolleyes:

Rocket Doctor
01-24-2008, 07:34 AM
I'm starting a new thread about motors.

JRThro
01-24-2008, 08:24 AM
If all goes well, you'll probably see new Quest motors in the next few months, and I'm pretty sure they won't come from Germany, the U.S., Canada, or Mexico! I think they wanted them out by this month, but I haven't heard any news from them lately. Tried to convince Nettie that she or Bill should participate in the forums, but who knows? Maybe they're lurking.
Matt Costabile used to participate over at TRF, but I haven't seen him post anything in a long time, months at least.

Royatl
01-24-2008, 08:34 AM
Matt Costabile used to participate over at TRF, but I haven't seen him post anything in a long time, months at least.

That's probably because he left Quest. Or rather, when Quest moved to Colorado, he didn't go along. That is why I suggested to Nettie that she do the forum participation.

Rocket Doctor
01-24-2008, 08:55 AM
Quests new address is 210 miles southwest of Penrose, 4 hours 15 minutes away.

ghrocketman
01-24-2008, 10:58 AM
I think the Quest 18mm composite D is about as likely to be "coming soon" as the old Enerjet D21 18mm D still is (which never came out either) !

Even if it does come out, the suggested pricing point I have seen tossed around for 2 engines will be about the cost of 6 RMS18 loads....good luck selling any.

JoeLaunchman
01-24-2008, 11:13 AM
My LHS owner is insistent that Quest will come out, this year, will all of the recently discontinued Estes motors: C11-0,5,7, B6-0, A8-0 etc. Can anyone confirm this?

ghrocketman
01-24-2008, 11:41 AM
I think there is little if any truth to this....
If Quest does come out with those though it would be great.

Rocket Doctor
01-24-2008, 01:50 PM
From what I understand, Quest motors are going to be made in China. Has anyone heard this as well?

I need to move this over to the other thread Motor Matters.........

JRThro
01-24-2008, 04:12 PM
That's probably because he left Quest. Or rather, when Quest moved to Colorado, he didn't go along. That is why I suggested to Nettie that she do the forum participation.
I remember getting an e-mail where either Nettie or Matt told me that he was going to stay behind in Cave Creek and that at some point he would be moving up to Colorado. I guess that hasn't happened, or at least not yet.

dwmzmm
01-24-2008, 06:54 PM
That's probably because he left Quest. Or rather, when Quest moved to Colorado, he didn't go along. That is why I suggested to Nettie that she do the forum participation.


I think Nettie and her daugher is a member of the Rocketry Planet blog forum. I am too,
but, heck, I'm in so many forums I just haven't had the time to digest all of them lately!!

gpoehlein
01-24-2008, 08:16 PM
From what I understand, Quest motors are going to be made in China. Has anyone heard this as well?

I need to move this over to the other thread Motor Matters.........

That was the supposition - someone wrote the Chinese manufacturer about importing the motors, and the company official replied that he couldn't discuss it because they already had signed a contract with Quest. Whether that means that Quest is moving to Chinese manufactured motors because the Euro vs Dollar has gotten so bad, or that Quest just tied it up so no one else could import the motors is anyone's guess until Quest announces something.

Greg

Rocket Doctor
01-24-2008, 09:55 PM
That was the supposition - someone wrote the Chinese manufacturer about importing the motors, and the company official replied that he couldn't discuss it because they already had signed a contract with Quest. Whether that means that Quest is moving to Chinese manufactured motors because the Euro vs Dollar has gotten so bad, or that Quest just tied it up so no one else could import the motors is anyone's guess until Quest announces something.

Greg

What is the name of that company?

gpoehlein
01-24-2008, 10:53 PM
Took a little searching, but I found the thread (there is a discussion on TRF as well). The company in question is Shaanxi Zhongtian Rocket Technology Co., Ltd. Al Swackhammer's post on page 2 of this thread:

http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=2593

tells the story.

Greg

JRThro
01-26-2008, 07:32 AM
I remember getting an e-mail where either Nettie or Matt told me that he was going to stay behind in Cave Creek and that at some point he would be moving up to Colorado. I guess that hasn't happened, or at least not yet.
So I wrote to Nettie the other day, and she replied that Matt probably would not be joining them up in Colorado.
:(