Is "made in the USA" really better?

[foose4string]

Ok, this is not intented to stir or any moral, ethical, political, or economical controversy over which is better... Just simply relaying an observation I made yesterday. This just pertains to Estes' decision to assemble kits overseas.

I visited a hobby shop yesterday that had several OOP kits, and are very well stocked in terms of rocketry items. They had at least half a dozen Estes Night Wing kits hanging, all made in USA...except one that was made in China....same kit just manufactured overseas. Guess which one had the better quality parts? Yep the Chinese parts were better! The balsa was much softer in all the USA kits, the balsa was die CRUSHED, the cones all had a ton of flashing around the edges... very sloppy looking cones to say the least, and better looking tubes and rings in the China package. Now, from a collectors standpoint, I'll bet the USA kits are more desirable simply because of where it's made. And a tiny voice was saying, "Hey you... do the right thing and buy the American kit!" But I intend on building this one day and I couldn't ignore the quality issues. I bought the lone Chinese kit. (ok, you guys can start flaming me now) :o :rolleyes:

It's easy to see that the tooling was getting long in the tooth on the USA products. And during the crossover, the brand new new China tooling was producing a superior product. Estes was obviously at a crossroads with tooling and had a decision to make. Keeping that quality control up is another thing, especially when the operation is halfway across the globe. There have been indications lately that suggest that maybe some of the quality is slipping. But, considering what I saw in those USA made packages yesterday, it could be worse!

[cas2047]

This could be a very interesting thread. Hopefully no flaming will happen because we're all entitled to our opinions, and we should all be able to convey them without being hammered for it. :)

Personally I don't fault anyone for either buying or not buying American. In my opinion it's a personal choice. For myself, I prefer to buy American when I can. You are absolutely correct in your observation that American quality isn't Always better. My take on it though is that buying American when I can is better for America, since it involves using American labor, hopefully American made materials, etc..

I'm finding more and more that I am really trying to Not buy Chinese whenever possible due to the fact that their quality and control standards, labor laws, and a host of other things are not up to American standards. We've all heard the stories about tainted pet food, high levels of lead in toys, and even the small parts of one game that if swallowed acted like a date rape type drug which could severely harm or even kill the person ingesting the components. Not to mention that if this isn't enough of an uneven playing field, China also prohibits many imports from America and other countries which just isn't fair. I'd personally rather pay more for something made elsewhere.


Of course in the case of the Night Wing, I would have bought both versions. Rockets are a weak point for me. :rolleyes:

Just my humble opinion and 2 cents.

[jay]

I don't like the fact that Estes rocket kits are made in China but I have to say that the quality of the parts, laser cutting, grade of balsa and plastic molding on the new Interceptor #1350 & #1250, and Der Red Max are incredible. I couldn't believe they were Estes kits. I've been building Estes kits since '87 and have built some kits that go back to the '70's and the quality of the new kits is just so much better. I mean, laser cutting is way better than die cutting, but I like it all, laser cut, die cut, or templates to cut out and trace onto balsa sheet, doesn't matter to me as long as the kit is a quality offering. Still can't get over the beautiful balsa in those Interceptors!

[Leo]

I don't know about you guys but all I have to do is look over at Semroc e.g. to tell me that "Made in the USA" is on par with the best without any doubt.

Nuff said.

[James Pierson]

Seems to me that the management and quality control as Estes is not up to "American Standards" concerning the "Made in U.S.A." kits.

James Pierson
NAR# 77907

[foose4string]

I don't know about you guys but all I have to do is look over at Semroc e.g. to tell me that "Made in the USA" is on par with the best without any doubt.

Nuff said.


No doubt about that! There are a few others, too...but I think Semroc has set the bar pretty high for everyone in the biz! This was just pertaining to the Estes kits I saw.

In the case of this Night Wing, I think they were both die cut....I didn't see any evidence of laser cutting in either package, but the China die was clearly sharper than the other, and the quality of wood was much better.

Hindsight, I probably should have picked up both ...especially since everything in the shop was marked down 20%. :rolleyes: But, I always feel guilty buying multiples when I 've got so many kits in queue....don't ask me why. Guess it's because technically I'm not a collector....well I don't view myself as one, my wife might disagree! :D

[cas2047]

I don't know about you guys but all I have to do is look over at Semroc e.g. to tell me that "Made in the USA" is on par with the best without any doubt.

Nuff said.


Semroc holds the top spot in my book from selection to quality to innovation to customer service to shipping. I could go on but anyone who has delt with them knows what I'm talking about so there's no need.

I'm holding out hope that someday they will come out with a Saturn V. A Semroc Saturn V would look great next to my Semroc Saturn 1B. :)

[jay]

Seems to me that the management and quality control as Estes is not up to "American Standards" concerning the "Made in U.S.A." kits.

James Pierson
NAR# 77907
Well said! I totally agree with James!

[tbzep]

Years ago, Estes and Centuri had great parts. They had nice solid body tubes, motor tubes, rings, etc. The die-crushed fins weren't so hot, but the wood itself was good.

In the not so distant past, Estes started using some absolutely horrible thin body tubes on some kits but decent ones on some others (old stock maybe?). I never looked to see where they were made. The color coded motor mount tubes are/were horribly thin and weak, and they didn't include engine blocks in many of the kits. A block isn't absolutely needed for A/B/C motors if the motor tube is heavy like they used to be years ago, but all those E2X Generic kits that we've done with schools have driven the engine hooks up after only a very small handful of flights. I've started cutting up spent motors to make engine blocks to add to the kits before we assemble and fly them at school. I have no idea if the kits are any better now than when we bought the last batch, but there are several other models that include some of these shoddy parts.

The only kits we've recently bought that I know are from China are the 1250 Interceptor and the Red Max. The white motor tubes are considerably stronger than those color coded pieces of junk and my son says they included an engine block too. The main body tubes were good quality as were the fin material and laser cutting.

[foose4string]

The thing that made me take notice of where it was made, was the packaging. The USA bags are generally thinner and more pliable than the Chinese bags( the ones without big tubes and folded headers). Then closer inspection of the parts showed big differences in quality. The package shows the copyright date of 2000 on the front of this one, so maybe that is when it was produced, but perhaps that's not an accurate indicator? Not sure about the date on the others. I'll bet a lot of kit production starting going to China around that time. Anyone know for certain? RD? Maybe it was a gradual process directly relating to tooling, relating to when certain old parts or new ones required a new molds or die.

[ScaleNut]

Keep in mind it's Estes-Cox a company that makes alot of different toys ,and are backed by a big foreign conglomerate ... not a strictly american ,strictly model rocketry company .

they can't be compared to "years ago" anymore .. those days are long gone

[Rustee]

Well,since I started building balsa kits in '74 or so,I've had some nearly ruined by poor die cutting,and that includes Guillow's,Carl Goldberg,Centuri and Estes. I've built every Carl Goldberg control line kit there was and it was very inconsistent. So,for the builder,who wouldn't want parts made on new equipment or laser-cut vs. die cut? The modern collector would probably want the best quality as well,but I would definitely lean towards the American product. China is my last choice for anything.The third alternative is to build it yourself,then it's manufactured by YOU.BTW,I'm awaiting my first Semroc kits,how else could I get my old Space Shuttle for $25? I'm sure there are some that see THAT as an abomination...

[ghrocketman]

In a word, YES, the USA made kit is better !

Why ?
Because it supplied a Citizen of the USA with a job with a reasonable wage instead of hiring some non-American in backwater who-knows-where for 50 cents a DAY in the name of corporate GREED and bowing to knee-jerk reactionary Wall Street.

That's the same reason why I only will buy cars from USA HEADQUARTERED Auto Companies...most of the time the $$$ stays in good ol' USA, but one company is really starting to tick me off with all their expanded production in China.
And no, a Toyota or Honda built in the USA is NOT an American car.

I will admit I have bought a FEW kits from Estes since they moved production to China and felt guilty whenever I did it.

[jay]

In a word, YES, the USA made kit is better !

Why ?
Because it supplied a Citizen of the USA with a job with a reasonable wage instead of hiring some non-American in backwater who-knows-where for 50 cents a DAY in the name of corporate GREED and bowing to knee-jerk reactionary Wall Street.

That's the same reason why I only will buy cars from USA HEADQUARTERED Auto Companies...most of the time the $$$ stays in good ol' USA, but one company is really starting to tick me off with all their expanded production in China.
And no, a Toyota or Honda built in the USA is NOT an American car.

I will admit I have bought a FEW kits from Estes since they moved production to China and felt guilty whenever I did it.
I totally agree with you ghrocketman!

[tbzep]

Keep in mind it's Estes-Cox a company that makes alot of different toys ,and are backed by a big foreign conglomerate ... not a strictly american ,strictly model rocketry company .

they can't be compared to "years ago" anymore .. those days are long gone

That's why I compared the Generic E2X and similar kits to the only two that I've bought that I know came from China. However, there is absolutely nothing wrong with comparing today's US and China products with the classic 100% USA products they used to produce. Don't forget, this forum is for old rockets. :D

[Royatl]

Keep in mind it's Estes-Cox a company that makes alot of different toys ,and are backed by a big foreign conglomerate ... not a strictly american ,strictly model rocketry company .

they can't be compared to "years ago" anymore .. those days are long gone

"backed by a big foreign conglomerate" ???

Educate me on that. AFAIK they are a privately held company owned by Tunick and his brother and one other.