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A Fish Named Wallyum
07-03-2005, 06:03 AM
Jay,
Does RocSim say that the Wolverine design is stable? My 1:1 clone has only been stable once or twice no matter how much nose weight I added. :confused:

Tau Zero
07-04-2005, 01:34 AM
Does RocSim say that the Wolverine design is stable? My 1:1 clone has only been stable once or twice no matter how much nose weight I added. :confused:Bill,

*If* you use a balsa nose cone (no nose weight) and 1/16" balsa, per the original (as opposed to basswood :eek: ), RockSim 8 says you *should* be able to get the following results:


Motor -- Altitude -- Speed at ejection

1/2A3-2T -- 62 ft. -- 8 fps (feet per second)

A3-4T -- 181 ft. -- 36 fps [near chute-shredding speed, IIRC]

A10-3T -- 200 ft. -- 5 fps


So if you jump through all the hoops specified, it looks like the A10-3T should be the ideal motor for a "stock" 1:1 Estes Wolverine.

Unless the universe is conspiring against you, of course. :rolleyes: (heavy sigh)


That's what I "gots" for ya,

--Jay

Tau Zero
05-31-2006, 12:03 AM
While I was waiting for the paint to dry on my Sirius Interrogator, I thought I'd use the label-paper fin-covering technique I learned from that rocket to rebuild my long-lost 1.36X Estes Wolverine upscale. Then for good measure, I decided to throw together a 1.00X version. (Bill, you were right! This one's *dinky!*)

I used 1/16" balsa for the BT-50 version (it's *very* light! It'll probably only need a streamer, since I made sure *not* to use an engine hook for this one), and 3/32" balsa for the BT-55 upscale.

(Oddly enough, "X-Men 2" was on over the weekend. :eek: )


1.00X 13 mm version
Motor / Altitude / Deployment Speed

1/2A3-2T -- 87 ft. -- 3 fps
A10-3T -- 265 ft. -- 9 fps


1.36X 18 mm version
Motor / Altitude / Deployment Speed

B6-4 -- 317 ft. -- 9 fps
C6-5 -- 796 ft. -- 7 fps


Now there's just the matter of BNC-50BC and BNC-55BC nose cones to deal with. Hmm... :cool:


Cheers,

--Jay

Green Dragon
06-01-2006, 11:42 AM
My original vintage Wolverine flies fine.

Will need to be rebuilt sometime, as the tube spiral has torn at top ( now scotch-taped), and it was never sealed when built, so ,although looks ok, the age of the just-starting-to-deteriorate decals and the bad tube,unsealed wood, etc will make for a restoration oportunity.

quick question that brngs up ( no fighting now :-) - opinions on the resto ?

would you restore it ( I will either way, since it's a memory ), or would you save it an dmake a complete clone to fly ?

I recently restored my vintage Omega, X-ray , and ahve the 1227 Honest John about done, and started resto on a Condor, so trying to save my oldies, but bring em up to bioth my current finishing standards and safety ( shock cords,etc ) standards.

~ AL

CPMcGraw
06-01-2006, 12:29 PM
My original vintage Wolverine flies fine...

...quick question that brngs up ( no fighting now :-) - opinions on the resto ?

would you restore it ( I will either way, since it's a memory ), or would you save it an dmake a complete clone to fly ? ...

Al,

If the condition of the balsa is not too bad, and if it's just a small area around one edge of the tube that's coming undone, I'd try a full restoration. Remove enough of the tube to eliminate the old shock chord mount and add a fresh length with a short coupler (coupler not longer than 1/4", I'd think; use a split-tube quickie coupler) and make sure the coupler is far enough down to clear the shoulder.

Sand off all of those original decals and either create new ones or find someone with a "modern" set.

Green Dragon
06-01-2006, 12:59 PM
Al,

If the condition of the balsa is not too bad, and if it's just a small area around one edge of the tube that's coming undone, I'd try a full restoration. Remove enough of the tube to eliminate the old shock chord mount and add a fresh length with a short coupler (coupler not longer than 1/4", I'd think; use a split-tube quickie coupler) and make sure the coupler is far enough down to clear the shoulder.

Sand off all of those original decals and either create new ones or find someone with a "modern" set.

the balsa looks good, not chipped up or abused, just needs sealing and repainting to be nicer

side note - I have been using a pinecar brand sanding sealer, water based, right over the old paint and have had excellent results, do check it out ,

the tube is torn right along the spiral for about 1 - 1.25 " , I was going to just disect the entire thing, use a new tube , old fins and nosecone and motor mount, but then got hinking - should I save it, and just build a clone since the fins are easily made, cone can be had from bms, etc.

liekly will restore, and am taking your advise into consideration aboput splicing it, instead of 'destroying it' to rebuild.

I know Phred has the decals, so that's what prompted me to go for it .

before pic attached.

~ AL

JSP
06-01-2006, 01:09 PM
I'd definately go for the restoration. I've restored a few of my own. However, I have a question. When does a "restoration" become a "clone with some original parts?" It's the "Grandpa's Hammer" situation. (This is Grandpa's hammer...It's had three heads and four handles since he had it, but it's STILL Grandpa's hammer) I just thought it was a fun questions...What do you guys think?

CPMcGraw
06-01-2006, 01:09 PM
...the tube is torn right along the spiral for about 1 - 1.25 "... liekly will restore, and am taking your advise into consideration aboput splicing it, instead of 'destroying it' to rebuild....before pic attached.

Go for the restoration, Al!

Nothing in that picture that a proper application of sandpaper and primer can't undo...

And remember, a fresh coat of paint is like love -- it can cover a multitude of sins... :D

A Fish Named Wallyum
06-01-2006, 03:50 PM
I'd save it as is. :cool:

Green Dragon
06-01-2006, 05:28 PM
I'd definately go for the restoration. I've restored a few of my own. However, I have a question. When does a "restoration" become a "clone with some original parts?" It's the "Grandpa's Hammer" situation. (This is Grandpa's hammer...It's had three heads and four handles since he had it, but it's STILL Grandpa's hammer) I just thought it was a fun questions...What do you guys think?

Well, when I was an advisor to the local middle school club ( for 15 years ), the instructor gave points for flights ( based on simple criteria such as fully deployed chute, damage,etc ), and if a rocket was damaged / repaired - he said it was the same if it used parts of the original...

course then you had 'lower half repaire d/ replaced ', 4-5 launches later payload was lost, so new one built, still same rocket he says, but might have the engine hook from the original left....

I;m gonna restore it ( sorry Bill ), since it's 'my history' and will still be afterwards.

~ AL

raining here now so no painting tonight

A Fish Named Wallyum
06-01-2006, 07:11 PM
I;m gonna restore it ( sorry Bill ), since it's 'my history' and will still be afterwards.


Wimp. :rolleyes:

A Fish Named Wallyum
06-01-2006, 07:12 PM
raining here now so no painting tonight

It's a SIGN! THOU SHALT NOT RESTORETH! :eek:

Tau Zero
06-15-2006, 12:16 AM
Now there's just the matter of BNC-50BC and BNC-55BC nose cones to deal with.Okay, Bill, take a look at these two images. Does this profile look pretty much like your stock BNC-50BC from BMS?

Lemme know. Thanks,

--Jay

A Fish Named Wallyum
06-15-2006, 12:48 AM
Dead on.

Tau Zero
06-15-2006, 01:02 AM
Dead on. :cool: Updated RockSim files follow.

Now I just have to remember to save the "tweaked" nose cones to my database...


SPANK the Silverback!Now *that's* funny! :D


UPDATE: Oops! I changed the nose cone, but forgot to run the sims! (Sorry, you'll need to re-download those files again!)

UPDATE #2: While Bill's Balsa Machining Services BC-50BC nose cone measures 11/16" (0.6875 ") wide at the beginning of the ogive section, Carl McLawhorn's reproduction at:

http://www.semroc.com/Store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=975


...measures 5/8" (0.625") at the same place. (I'm all for making people's lives simpler. :D ) *SO* I updated the Wolverine files (*again!*) to reflect this. (That makes the 1.36X upscale 0.85" wide at the same point.) Sorry for the inconvenience! :o



1.00X (13mm)
Motor / Max. Altitude / Deployment Speed

1/2A3-2T -- 87 ft. -- 3 fps
A10-3T -- 267 ft. -- 9 fps


1.36X (18mm)
Motor / Max. Altitude / Deployment Speed

B6-4 -- 314 ft. -- 10 fps
C6-5 -- 796 ft. -- 5 fps


Cheers,

--Jay

Tau Zero
06-18-2006, 11:48 PM
Updated RockSim files follow.Or in *this* case, "precede" the post that you're reading now.

*Dang,* Carl's take on the original Wolverine nose cone looks *way* cool! ;) :D :cool:


Cheers,

--Jay

Rocketaholic
06-19-2006, 05:36 PM
I have the original still in mint condition. I have launched it several times without any problems. It is a unique model I think.

:cool:

Tau Zero
07-02-2006, 10:49 PM
Apparently Carl can't leave well enough alone, either:

http://www.semroc.com/Store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=999


In honor of the Semroc BT-60 version of the original BNC-50BC nose cone, I offer you... (melodramatic pause) :eek:

...The BT-60 1.68X Wolverine upscale. ;) :D :cool:


1.68X (24mm)
Motor / Max. Altitude / Deployment Speed

C11-5 -- 480 ft. -- 14 fps
D12-5 -- 1015 ft. -- 25 fps
E9-6 -- 1600 ft. -- 11 fps


It's been a long day today, so I'll have to post the parts list for it sometime later this week. :o


Cheers,

hawkshobby
07-03-2006, 07:06 AM
I'm a wating to see a 240% :eek: :D :D








Mark

dwmzmm
07-03-2006, 12:58 PM
Here's a couple of pics of someone's Estes Wolverine at NSL - 2006 in McGregor this past May. Not sure who it belongs to or how it flew, as my Estes Patriot flew first and drifted far
downwind, and was given up as lost since my son and I couldn't find it (it was a D12-5 powered model).

http://www.challenger498.org/gallery/album26/FH000003_001

http://www.challenger498.org/gallery/album26/FH000004_001?full=1

PS: Royce Frankum did find the Patriot several hours later. Thanks, Royce!!

tbzep
07-03-2006, 01:27 PM
Here's a couple of pics of someone's Estes Wolverine at NSL - 2006 in McGregor this past May. Not sure who it belongs to or how it flew, as my Estes Patriot flew first and drifted far
downwind, and was given up as lost since my son and I couldn't find it (it was a D12-5 powered model).

Ya reckon there was a reason the original had an 18mm motor mount? :D

PS: Royce Frankum did find the Patriot several hours later. Thanks, Royce!!

Cool. The Citation Patriot is too pretty to lose. :)

dwmzmm
07-03-2006, 02:10 PM
[QUOTE=tbzep]Ya reckon there was a reason the original had an 18mm motor mount? :D

Oh yes. I do have an interchangable 20/50 motor mount so 18 mm motors can also be used.
I use this interchangable motor mount for the Squirrel Works Gremlin, the Estes Patriot (the
one pictured in the previous post) and my little girl's Estes StormCaster. To date, only the
Gremlin has actually used the 18 mm (C6's) several times.

dwmzmm
07-03-2006, 02:14 PM
Just come to think of it, I still have (in the bag) the Estes WASP kit. It uses the same nosecone as the Wolverine. Hey, I could build both models and simply switch the nosecone
according to which will fly...How does that sound?!

tbzep
07-03-2006, 02:20 PM
IIRC, the Wolverine is solid silver and the wasp is yellow and white. Your nosecone would reflect the catalog paint scheme on one of the models. However, it would get you by until you got around to ordering a nosecone from Carl. :)

dwmzmm
07-03-2006, 06:38 PM
IIRC, the Wolverine is solid silver and the wasp is yellow and white. Your nosecone would reflect the catalog paint scheme on one of the models. However, it would get you by until you got around to ordering a nosecone from Carl. :)

Yes, you're right; I had thought the WASP's NC was silver. Just went to check the online
catalog at Ninfingers and it's the section on the bodytube just below the NC that's silver.
Glad you pointed that out. Maybe I could make "my" Woliverine mostly all white with some
red stars as the decals...

Vanel
07-08-2006, 12:59 AM
I'm trying to clone this puppy, and have a couple of questions:

1) What thickness are the fins of the original? 1/16 or 3/32"?

2) Where do I get the pattern for the canopy? It's not in the plans posted at JimZ's.

Thanks,

Bill

dwmzmm
07-08-2006, 06:41 AM
Cool. The Citation Patriot is too pretty to lose. :)

But then, a couple of hours later, I flew my Maxi-Alphax4 and this time, ended up losing it for
good:

http://www.challenger498.org/gallery/album26/FH000012_001

http://www.challenger498.org/gallery/album26/FH000013_001?full=1

Because of this loss (plus others I've had here), I'm not sure I'll be flying at McGregor
again in the future. At any given time during the day, you'll see a handful of rocketeers
in the downrange area looking for their (lost) model rockets...

A Fish Named Wallyum
07-08-2006, 06:42 AM
Let me know if this doesn't work and I'll e-mail it to you.
;)

dwmzmm
07-08-2006, 06:56 AM
I'm trying to clone this puppy, and have a couple of questions:

1) What thickness are the fins of the original? 1/16 or 3/32"?

2) Where do I get the pattern for the canopy? It's not in the plans posted at JimZ's.

Thanks,

Bill

If it's the same as the WASP, the fin thickness is 3/32". Someone posted a pattern of the
nosecone earlier in this thread; otherwise, I think BMS or SEMROC has a balsa copy of this
nosecone & someone makes either a resin or vacuformed copy. Will have to do a search
to remember who it is...

Vanel
07-08-2006, 09:03 AM
Let me know if this doesn't work and I'll e-mail it to you.
;)

Looks good, Bill - Thanks!

JSP
07-08-2006, 11:04 AM
I'm not sure I'll be flying at McGregor
again in the future. At any given time during the day, you'll see a handful of rocketeers
in the downrange area looking for their (lost) model rockets...[/QUOTE]

I lost an Aerotech ARCAS....which is NOT a small rocket...at McGregor. I flew it on an F and saw where it landed (I thought). I looked all day, and then again at the Fathers Day launch but never found it. The problem is that once you get out in the field you're suddenly in grass up to your chest. You can't even tell before you get there- it just looks like the rest of the grass...

Oh well...

Tau Zero
07-08-2006, 12:34 PM
What thickness are the fins of the original? 1/16 or 3/32"?If it's the same as the WASP, the fin thickness is 3/32". Bill and Dave,

The fin stock should be 1/16" thick. Also, the original Wolverine was BT-50, and the WASP was BT-55. So in order to use the WASP's PNC-55DD nose cone on a Wolverine, you'd have to do a 1.36X upscale ;) :D , like the bigger one pictured below.


Someone posted a pattern of the nosecone earlier in this thread; otherwise, I think BMS or SEMROC has a balsa copy of this noseconeSemroc has it available in the original BNC-50BC (http://www.semroc.com/Store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=975) size, as well as the 1.68X (BT-60) upscale BNC-60BC (http://www.semroc.com/Store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=999) version.

BMS has the original sized cone in two pieces that need to be glued together. See Bill Eichelberger's 1.00X Wolverine (http://www.rocketreviews.com/reviews/oop/est_wolverine.html) review on EMRR.

dwmzmm
07-08-2006, 01:18 PM
I'm not sure I'll be flying at McGregor
again in the future. At any given time during the day, you'll see a handful of rocketeers
in the downrange area looking for their (lost) model rockets...

I lost an Aerotech ARCAS....which is NOT a small rocket...at McGregor. I flew it on an F and saw where it landed (I thought). I looked all day, and then again at the Fathers Day launch but never found it. The problem is that once you get out in the field you're suddenly in grass up to your chest. You can't even tell before you get there- it just looks like the rest of the grass...

Oh well...[/QUOTE]

Last year, during the Tex-Regional (Father's Day Launch), I lost the payload/nose section
of my FSI 1/8 scale Black Brant - II somewhere in the same area. Made the mistake of using
the AT E30-4 (instead of the seven second delay), and the ejection occured when the model
was still traveling at a high rate of speed, causing an ugly zipper and shockcord separation.
The main body section literally glided back down, as it was very balanced, and landed near
one of those power line towers; I still had the nose section/black nylon parachute in sight
and followed it (visually) down over the horizon and therefore had a line on it. Despite hours
of looking, I never could find it!!

But thanks to Carl and SEMROC, I was able to get a replacement nosecone and bodytube
and balsa block so I can repair my BB - II to make it like new again. Carl really went above
and beyond the call of service; I even got the stuff at my door before getting my payment
in the mail! That really blew my mind! Thanks, Carl!

Vanel
07-11-2006, 10:14 PM
I have completed construction of my Wolverine clone - details are on my blog (http://www.billcooke.org/rocketblog/). Now for the finishing :rolleyes:

Bill - Thanks for the cockpit pattern! I posted a link to it on my blog, as it is missing from the JimZ plans. Hope you don't mind.

A Fish Named Wallyum
07-11-2006, 10:17 PM
I have completed construction of my Wolverine clone - details are on my blog (http://www.billcooke.org/rocketblog/). Now for the finishing :rolleyes:

Bill - Thanks for the cockpit pattern! I posted a link to it on my blog, as it is missing from the JimZ plans. Hope you don't mind.

Not at all. Someone from Yahoo Old Rockets sent me a copy several years ago. I can't remember who it was, but they deserve the thanks, not me. ;)

Vanel
08-17-2006, 08:01 PM
Here are a couple of pics of the clone:

http://www.billcooke.org/images/rocketblog/Wolverine_decaled001.jpg
http://www.billcooke.org/images/rocketblog/Wolverine_decaled002.jpg

Tau Zero
08-17-2006, 11:58 PM
Here are a couple of pics of the clone:Bill,

*Nice.* :D ;) :cool:


Cheers,

Green Dragon
08-18-2006, 09:09 PM
The fin stock should be 1/16" thick. Also, the original Wolverine was BT-50, and the WASP was BT-55. So in order to use the WASP's PNC-55DD nose cone on a Wolverine, you'd have to do a 1.36X upscale ;) :D , like the bigger one pictured below.


Semroc has it available in the original
BMS has the original sized cone in two pieces that need to be glued together. See Bill Eichelberger's 1.00X Wolverine (http://www.rocketreviews.com/reviews/oop/est_wolverine.html) review on EMRR.

Is the upscale pictured a BT55 or 60 version ?

Looks like a plastic cone, so guessing BT55, not Semroc BT60 cone .

Also, is the WASP cone actually the same profile as the Wolverine / Teros cone ?

I have a spare WASP pnc, so thinking upscale Teros, but what crossed my mind when looking at this this evening ( while taking a break from the previously mentioned in this thread Wolverine restoration :) ) - was a BT50 downscaled WASP, might be neat, if the nones are cloe enough , BT50 / 18mm mount, would be unique downscale....

~ AL

Tau Zero
08-18-2006, 10:05 PM
Is the upscale pictured a BT55 or 60 version ?

Looks like a plastic cone, so guessing BT55, not Semroc BT60 cone.Al,

"You are correct, sir!" BT-55 is 1.36X (136%) the size of BT-50, and the larger Wolverine is pictured with the Estes WASP cone.


Also, is the WASP cone actually the same profile as the Wolverine... cone?No. It's got more straight edges, and the ramjet is smaller than the Wolverine cone.


I have a spare WASP pnc, so thinking upscale Teros, but what crossed my mind when looking at this this evening ( while taking a break from the previously mentioned in this thread Wolverine restoration :) ) - was a BT50 downscaled WASP, might be neat, if the cones are close enough, BT50 / 18mm mount, would be unique downscale....I used to be *really* anal-retentive about up- and down-scaling. But I finally relaxed and decided that, "In *some* cases, close enough is good enough."

So yeah, get a spare BC-50BC nose cone (at *least* one! :D ;) ) from Semroc, and *build* your self a downscaled WASP. That would be cool! :cool:


Cheers, and good luck,

Green Dragon
08-18-2006, 11:18 PM
Sounds 'close enough' , lol... will keep you posted on progress ( so many projects......

Also will post pics of the Wolverine when restored, got the tubing cut, need to splice the new section on .
Also have two good coats of sealer on, sanding as I get ambitious.

Decals came out ok - cleaned up best I could, so wait and see how they look on the bird ( the scan posted has a lot of yellowing around the edges of the old decal, so does not clean up as well as others - if they look bad, I'll have to give Phred a call ;)

~ AL

Tau Zero
08-18-2006, 11:34 PM
Here are a couple of pics of the clone]Hey Bill,

What brands of primer and silver paints did you use? I've come to the conclusion that Krylon doesn't fill my building "imperfections" :eek: :o well enough to make metallic silver paint look really good. (That's why I painted my 1.00X Wolverine light gray instead of silver, like my 1.36X upscale.)

Anyway, please chime in here. Thanks!


Cheers,

Green Dragon
08-19-2006, 08:30 AM
Hey Bill,

What brands of primer and silver paints did you use? I've come to the conclusion that Krylon doesn't fill my building "imperfections" :eek: :o well enough to make metallic silver paint look really good. (That's why I painted my 1.00X Wolverine light gray instead of silver, like my 1.36X upscale.)

Anyway, please chime in here. Thanks!


Cheers,

Not sure why Krylon silver is "so-so" , had the same problem with their gold on my Polaris ( switched to testors, which came out ok, still a little 'streaky' ).

have not repainted the Wolverine yet, but will use the same paint I used on my Custom Bullet and my Delta Star clone - which is an off-brand ( family dollar ) silver, which is real nice, almost chrome, see photo attached of the Centuri Vector V restoration .

Sometimes the 'cheap' paints are more user-friendly, it seems ?

~ AL

Vanel
08-19-2006, 08:05 PM
Hey Bill,

What brands of primer and silver paints did you use? I've come to the conclusion that Krylon doesn't fill my building "imperfections" :eek: :o well enough to make metallic silver paint look really good. (That's why I painted my 1.00X Wolverine light gray instead of silver, like my 1.36X upscale.)

Anyway, please chime in here. Thanks!

I filled the spirals with diluted Fill N Finish and applied 2 coats of Krylon gray primer, followed by one coat of Krylon white primer. sanding in between coats with 320/400 grit. Next was a base coat of Krylon semi-gloss white, topped by 2 coats of Bright Silver Krylon special purpose metallic.

Regular Krylon silver bites :p

A Fish Named Wallyum
08-20-2006, 01:13 PM
Hey Bill,

What brands of primer and silver paints did you use? I've come to the conclusion that Krylon doesn't fill my building "imperfections" :eek: :o well enough to make metallic silver paint look really good. (That's why I painted my 1.00X Wolverine light gray instead of silver, like my 1.36X upscale.)

Anyway, please chime in here. Thanks!


Cheers,


Valspar primer and Valspar silver metallic, both available at Lowe's in my area. YMMV.
Today is my first day back from vacation. 27 threads and 321 posts since I left!!! :eek:

JRThro
08-21-2006, 09:10 AM
Today is my first day back from vacation. 27 threads and 321 posts since I left!!! :eek:
Yeah, things are pretty slow when you're not around. ;)

Welcome back!