PDA

View Full Version : 2008 Estes Catalog or not?


Shreadvector
02-27-2008, 11:42 AM
What do you think:

http://www.estesrocketswholesale.com/

Royatl
02-27-2008, 03:25 PM
What do you think:

http://www.estesrocketswholesale.com/


About what? The URL? or the new catalog announcement?

If the URL, then what about it? That Belleville took something with Estes' name in it? or are you speculating that maybe Estes allows them to have it for some reason?

Considering the weird (dis)interest that Estes seems to have had with developing their own web sites (it is obvious they don't 'grok' the Internet), I'm more intrigued by the current Cox site www.coxmodels.com.

In what is otherwise a plain old canned e-commerce site, the Aboutus.asp page is, as Arte Johnson's German soldier would say, "Verrrrry Eeenterestink...":

"Cox is returning to its roots."
"Just in time for our 60th anniversary, Cox Hobbies is once again a hobby company..."

and this... (emphasis mine)

"In January 1996, Estes Industries, the world's leading manufacturer of model rocketry products, purchased Cox and later in that year the Cox company was moved to the Estes facility in Penrose Colorado. For the next few years, many of the new Cox releases were designed for themass market and were sold very successfully through chain stores. But, something wasn't quite right - the hobby business is where Cox belonged and that's where it is returning. "

What do you think about *that*?

Rocket Doctor
02-27-2008, 03:54 PM
About what? The URL? or the new catalog announcement?

If the URL, then what about it? That Belleville took something with Estes' name in it? or are you speculating that maybe Estes allows them to have it for some reason?

Considering the weird (dis)interest that Estes seems to have had with developing their own web sites (it is obvious they don't 'grok' the Internet), I'm more intrigued by the current Cox site (www.coxmodels.com).

In what is otherwise a plain old canned e-commerce site, the Aboutus.asp page is, as Arte Johnson's German soldier would say, "Verrrrry Eeenterestink...":

"Cox is returning to its roots."
"Just in time for our 60th anniversary, Cox Hobbies is once again a hobby company..."

and this... (emphasis mine)

"In January 1996, Estes Industries, the world's leading manufacturer of model rocketry products, purchased Cox and later in that year the Cox company was moved to the Estes facility in Penrose Colorado. For the next few years, many of the new Cox releases were designed for themass market and were sold very successfully through chain stores. But, something wasn't quite right - the hobby business is where Cox belonged and that's where it is returning. "

What do you think about *that*?



It's apparent that mass merchandisers, such as WM don't want the stuff!!!

Now, the hobby shops, that Estes forgot about, is their only way out.
I would be hard pressed to see the catalog out now, but, who knows?

What are they doing for the 50th anniversary of Estes, ...........Model Rockets????
I know what could have been, but now, who knows????????

Royatl
02-27-2008, 04:44 PM
It's apparent that mass merchandisers, such as WM don't want the stuff!!!

Now, the hobby shops, that Estes forgot about, is their only way out.
I would be hard pressed to see the catalog out now, but, who knows?

What are they doing for the 50th anniversary of Estes, ...........Model Rockets????
I know what could have been, but now, who knows????????

Taking this a little further away from the original topic: Does Tunick treat them as two different entities? Is there Cox management and Estes management, or is the management co-mingled? I've been noticing more airplanes coming out with the Estes logo (such as the big foam Air Force One, and the small flyers available at Radio Shack) and wondered what the heck they were doing with the Cox brand.

Rocket Doctor
02-27-2008, 05:16 PM
Taking this a little further away from the original topic: Does Tunick treat them as two different entities? Is there Cox management and Estes management, or is the management co-mingled? I've been noticing more airplanes coming out with the Estes logo (such as the big foam Air Force One, and the small flyers available at Radio Shack) and wondered what the heck they were doing with the Cox brand.

Estes purchased Cox in 1996, fromn what I have read, Estes added it's own line of planes to go along with their Cox products.

I guess they added Cox to add to the mix of products, over the years Estes has had many sub divisions of products including West Wings (gliders) MDS (airplane mufflers) balsa airplane kits, Great garages (die cast disply "garage") and light gliders (tissue paper wings) So, there has been a variety of different items coming out of Estes. One other that I forgot, Kick dis the hockey puck.

Barry in the main manager/owner. R&D work together on both rockets and planes (Cox and Estes)

Cox is know for it's .049 airplane engines, but, for the most part, the engines have given way to electric motors. Many municipalities have banned gas powered planes due to noise.

Radio Shack indeed sells Estes braned planes, and so does WM. From what I also hear, the Cox line is very popular and sells well.

As the title suggests Estes-Cox, all under one roof.

getting back to the catalog, if it's no out now, then, I would say it should be out soon, within a month or so if history repeats itself.

Ltvscout
02-27-2008, 05:42 PM
"Cox is returning to its roots."
"Just in time for our 60th anniversary, Cox Hobbies is once again a hobby company..."

and this... (emphasis mine)

"In January 1996, Estes Industries, the world's leading manufacturer of model rocketry products, purchased Cox and later in that year the Cox company was moved to the Estes facility in Penrose Colorado. For the next few years, many of the new Cox releases were designed for themass market and were sold very successfully through chain stores. But, something wasn't quite right - the hobby business is where Cox belonged and that's where it is returning. "

What do you think about *that*?
Well, the 60th anniversary was in 2005. The website was created in 2006. To me, returning to their roots means bringing back nitro engines/planes. I'm not seeing that. :(

Royatl
02-28-2008, 11:30 AM
Well, the 60th anniversary was in 2005. The website was created in 2006. To me, returning to their roots means bringing back nitro engines/planes. I'm not seeing that. :(


Hmm. I missed that. Last time I looked at the Cox site, it looked like it was built by someone who had just bought their first HTML book. What I saw yesterday was at least a clean improvement, so I just assumed it was more recent.

Rocket Doctor
02-28-2008, 12:47 PM
Hmm. I missed that. Last time I looked at the Cox site, it looked like it was built by someone who had just bought their first HTML book. What I saw yesterday was at least a clean improvement, so I just assumed it was more recent.

Estes has a web master on site that handles all of their web sites, he is the same one who did the Estes Forum.

Royatl
02-28-2008, 01:05 PM
Estes has a web master on site that handles all of their web sites, he is the same one who did the Estes Forum.

Is that his full time job? The estesrockets site doesn't look like it has been significantly updated in a year. Little things here and there, like the X15 recall, but not the continuous updating or refinement that I would expect.

And the forum was just a fairly stock install of the Simple Machines forum software.

Tom Swift
02-28-2008, 01:09 PM
The forum is still there, not disabled or uninstalled. Can't log in though, of course.

http://www.estesrockets.com/forums/

I always found the Estes site to be rather primitive. Hate that navigation system.

Rocket Doctor
02-28-2008, 01:37 PM
The forum is still there, not disabled or uninstalled. Can't log in though, of course.

http://www.estesrockets.com/forums/

I always found the Estes site to be rather primitive. Hate that navigation system.

And, if you noticed, the message says the forums are closed.

As of Mapril21,2007, and a few month after wards, they had a full time, on site webmaster. What is there know, is anyones guess.

Solomoriah
02-28-2008, 03:20 PM
Honestly, the site looks vacant now...

Rocket Doctor
02-28-2008, 04:43 PM
Honestly, the site looks vacant now...

AS we all know, the Estes Forum shut down on April 21,2007.........under construction ????
NO

foose4string
02-28-2008, 05:43 PM
And, if you noticed, the message says the forums are closed.

As of Mapril21,2007, and a few month after wards, they had a full time, on site webmaster. What is there know, is anyones guess.


An on site webmaster you say? Whatever they paid him/her was too much. Updates are rare over there and what little was done, was nothing write home about. One can only assume that person is no longer there and never got replaced. That site hasn't been touched for ages.

Solomoriah
02-28-2008, 10:03 PM
The site design is abysmal. It is true that few rocketry vendor's websites look like much, but Estes can't even bother to post pictures of decent resolution. Also, the navigation system stinks.

Daniel Runyon
02-28-2008, 10:51 PM
It is truly ridiculous in this day and time for a company such as that not to have a website that is completely up to date with the product line with easy links to places where one can get the goods.

Last year I suggested that if they aren't going to sell directly they could at least post affiliate links to sites that carry them, for instance Amazon. That way their customers could come to their website, see what's available and actually make a purchase... not only would Estes have made the money they got from selling the kit to the vendor, but would also get an additional percentage of the retail sale through the affiliate link.

It would seem to me to be a little business 101 to have as few obstacles as possible between your products and your customers... make it EASY for people to know what you've got and to get it!

Rocket Doctor
02-29-2008, 02:55 PM
It is truly ridiculous in this day and time for a company such as that not to have a website that is completely up to date with the product line with easy links to places where one can get the goods.

Last year I suggested that if they aren't going to sell directly they could at least post affiliate links to sites that carry them, for instance Amazon. That way their customers could come to their website, see what's available and actually make a purchase... not only would Estes have made the money they got from selling the kit to the vendor, but would also get an additional percentage of the retail sale through the affiliate link.

It would seem to me to be a little business 101 to have as few obstacles as possible between your products and your customers... make it EASY for people to know what you've got and to get it!

It is/was Estes policy NOT to advertise, suggest or point you to their retailers. In part because of WM.

Also, if you go to the Estes website and look for instructions, they are not in numerical order, nor do the titles make any sense. Each name should start off with a capital letter. Check it out.
www.estesrockets.com clikc on educations then instructions Let me know what you think

Als, with the curent fromat, better descriptions and information should be proviced about each item, way too vague.

Shreadvector
02-29-2008, 03:40 PM
It is/was Estes policy NOT to advertise, suggest or point you to their retailers. In part because of WM.

Also, if you go to the Estes website and look for instructions, they are not in numerical order, nor do the titles make any sense. Each name should start off with a capital letter. Check it out.
www.estesrockets.com (http://www.estesrockets.com/) clikc on educations then instructions Let me know what you think

Als, with the curent fromat, better descriptions and information should be proviced about each item, way too vague.

A year os so ago, the instructions were only the current kits/sets and the PDFs were modern (like they were distilled directly from the original Word document) rather than scanned versions. The instructions now online are old kits and they appeared right around the time feelers were sent out looking for copies of the CATO and other kits from the not so distant past. I have no idea if this was in anticipation of 50th anniversary re-releases or an attempt to protect intellectual property rights. All I know is that the instructions online today are NOT an attempt to provide online support for current offerings.

Daniel Runyon
02-29-2008, 03:45 PM
It is/was Estes policy NOT to advertise, suggest or point you to their retailers. In part because of WM.

The policy makes no business sense. If it is because they cannot favor one vendor over another then they should have an alphabetical listing of ALL of them that have online stores, and then also a state by state listing of ALL brick and mortars, including a "also check with your local Wal Mart". It just defies logic to not make it easy for your customers to get your products.

Also, if you go to the Estes website and look for instructions, they are not in numerical order, nor do the titles make any sense. Each name should start off with a capital letter. Check it out.
www.estesrockets.com (http://www.estesrockets.com/) clikc on educations then instructions Let me know what you think

Yep... I noticed that too... it is just not a common sense way to organize things.

better descriptions and information should be proviced about each item, way too vague.

Agreed, and I made that very suggestion on the old forum. They should have clickable thumbnails that show larger images, and they should have complete descriptions of each rocket. As a matter of fact, it was the brief little "slow, realistic liftoffs" description that raised my curiosity and ultimately led me to fall completely in love with Berthas, which without said description I would probably have never been "inspired" by the model to begin with... even though the love that grew for them is not at all based on the liftoffs. In essense, the description matters... it is a significant inspirational trigger.

ghrocketman
02-29-2008, 05:02 PM
The way that Estes caters to Wal-Mart makes me want to vomit.
Catering to a company that does not pay a living wage/benefits to better than 50% of the full-time employees is one of the major reasons why a major portion of the middle class is slowly spiraling into poverty.
Don't even get me started on how that company treats their suppliers....i wish more companies would pull their products out of that store like Snapper lawn mowers did.

I sure wish we had another source of readily available DOMESTICALLY-produced SU BP motors; then I would have ZERO reason to give Estes any business at all.

Rocket Doctor
02-29-2008, 05:44 PM
A year os so ago, the instructions were only the current kits/sets and the PDFs were modern (like they were distilled directly from the original Word document) rather than scanned versions. The instructions now online are old kits and they appeared right around the time feelers were sent out looking for copies of the CATO and other kits from the not so distant past. I have no idea if this was in anticipation of 50th anniversary re-releases or an attempt to protect intellectual property rights. All I know is that the instructions online today are NOT an attempt to provide online support for current offerings.

The CATO was going to come back out, and, not for the 50th. But, when they didn't the cost evaluation, it was much too high and that project was scrapped. I had provided two CATO kits for that project, but, never got off the groud.

Another things about the instructions, when I did instructions, I put on them the most information possible, especially part numbers and dimensions. They were almost deleted from any future instructions for the fear of possible cloning, but, they stayed anyway.

There is enough sources for instructions such as JimZ to clone, my point was, there was no order to listed instructions and the wording could have been much better as to the kit names.

You can always contact Estes customer service and request instructions for a particular kit.

Rocket Doctor
02-29-2008, 05:50 PM
The policy makes no business sense. If it is because they cannot favor one vendor over another then they should have an alphabetical listing of ALL of them that have online stores, and then also a state by state listing of ALL brick and mortars, including a "also check with your local Wal Mart". It just defies logic to not make it easy for your customers to get your products.



Yep... I noticed that too... it is just not a common sense way to organize things.



Agreed, and I made that very suggestion on the old forum. They should have clickable thumbnails that show larger images, and they should have complete descriptions of each rocket. As a matter of fact, it was the brief little "slow, realistic liftoffs" description that raised my curiosity and ultimately led me to fall completely in love with Berthas, which without said description I would probably have never been "inspired" by the model to begin with... even though the love that grew for them is not at all based on the liftoffs. In essense, the description matters... it is a significant inspirational trigger.


Using the right motor, the Baby bertha will take off like a bat out of .............!!!!!
I was working on a "D" powered Baby Bertha, lot's of nose weight, I have a few prototypes, I'll have to try ojne out someday. I was going to call it the Silver Bullet, because, that rocket would be smoking.........

Mark II
02-29-2008, 06:25 PM
It is/was Estes policy NOT to advertise, suggest or point you to their retailers. In part because of WM.

Also, if you go to the Estes website and look for instructions, they are not in numerical order, nor do the titles make any sense. Each name should start off with a capital letter. Check it out.
www.estesrockets.com (http://www.estesrockets.com) clikc on educations then instructions Let me know what you think

Als, with the curent fromat, better descriptions and information should be proviced about each item, way too vague.
I have perused the instructions page quite extensively. I know what you mean by the filenames, but then, filenames are rarely consistent on any system. At least they have posted a lot of them, including those for classic kits, and other kit instructions that have not been previously available on any of the archive sites.

And I did unearth at least a couple of real jewels there, too. The set of instructions for the Astron Nighthawk from the Estes site is much clearer than the set at JimZ's site; you can actually read the Estes set (either JimZ, or Scott ;) should get the Nighthawk instructions from the Estes site - they really are that much better.) The same is true for the Astron Invader instructs, even though the set at JimZ's site is fine, too. Many of the sets at the Estes site don't include fin templates, but some do (including the two that I mentioned). One other thing I noticed was that there seems to be some repetition there; I found plans for the same kit posted more than once, under different filenames. But that's a minor quibble. And I did find one or two sets of instructions - with fin template scans - for kits that are marked in red on the Expanded Estes Kit List (http://www.rocketshoppe.com/info/estes_expanded_kit_list.htm) from you know where. I even found instructions for the Centuri Micron there, too. And I'm not even close to being done with looking at all of the stuff that they have there.

Although there are still a lot of things that I wish they would post there (like, for example, decal scans and header card scans), all in all, I'm glad that they made the resource available. It's a good place to go mining for product documents (not just rocket kit instructions).

Mark

Rocket Doctor
02-29-2008, 08:32 PM
at least they should be in numerical order with the proper titles. You shouldn't have to scroll down the entire list looking for something

timorley
03-03-2008, 03:53 PM
[QUOTE=Rocket Doctor]Also, if you go to the Estes website and look for instructions, they are not in numerical order, nor do the titles make any sense. Each name should start off with a capital letter. Check it out.
[QUOTE]

Try this URL http://www.estesrockets.com/instructions/ and you can browse the directory and get a little better sort order. Numerical, uppercase alpha, and then lowercase. There are 391 files.

Rocket Doctor
03-03-2008, 05:42 PM
[QUOTE=Rocket Doctor]Also, if you go to the Estes website and look for instructions, they are not in numerical order, nor do the titles make any sense. Each name should start off with a capital letter. Check it out.
[QUOTE]

Try this URL http://www.estesrockets.com/instructions/ and you can browse the directory and get a little better sort order. Numerical, uppercase alpha, and then lowercase. There are 391 files.

Excellent....

GIJoe
04-01-2008, 12:51 AM
Using the right motor, the Baby bertha will take off like a bat out of .............!!!!!
I was working on a "D" powered Baby Bertha, lot's of nose weight, I have a few prototypes, I'll have to try ojne out someday. I was going to call it the Silver Bullet, because, that rocket would be smoking.........


Hey Doc just finished my "E" powered Baby Bertha, planned to fly as a Motor Alphabet project. I call it A to E Flat Jam. I flew it on an E in March and it really did scream. In April at our club launch I will fly it on from A to E. The nose weight will make the "A" Flight the hardest. If I get that nailed down the rest will be easy. Great design, I am also planning a 4" diameter version for 38mm motors G-I.

Mark II
04-01-2008, 02:28 AM
The nose weight will make the "A" Flight the hardest. If I get that nailed down the rest will be easy.
Maybe you could just get a second Baby Bertha nose cone (PNC-60MS, I think), paint it to match your current one, and leave out the nose weight. Then just swap it in instead of the weighted one when you are flying the Baby on an A (or a B4).

Mark

Rocket Doctor
04-01-2008, 06:40 AM
Hey Doc just finished my "E" powered Baby Bertha, planned to fly as a Motor Alphabet project. I call it A to E Flat Jam. I flew it on an E in March and it really did scream. In April at our club launch I will fly it on from A to E. The nose weight will make the "A" Flight the hardest. If I get that nailed down the rest will be easy. Great design, I am also planning a 4" diameter version for 38mm motors G-I.

You could get additional Baby Bertha nose cones and change the nose weight. I was working on a "D" powered BB and I was going to call it the "Silver Bullet", plenty of nose weight and I'm sure it would had flown like a "bullet" .

I have three prototypes, never finished them off.

Tom Swift
04-01-2008, 02:27 PM
You got me trying to figure out a way to add adjustable amounts of nose weight to a single NC. After a while I had an idea worked out involving epoxy, all-thread, a spacer tube, a nut, and varying numbers/weights/diameters of washers.

Then I used Google and found an almost identical solution had been done already.
http://www.chmara.com/bt/rocketry/miniemaggnosecone.shtml

Rocket Doctor
04-01-2008, 03:48 PM
You got me trying to figure out a way to add adjustable amounts of nose weight to a single NC. After a while I had an idea worked out involving epoxy, all-thread, a spacer tube, a nut, and varying numbers/weights/diameters of washers.

Then I used Google and found an almost identical solution had been done already.
http://www.chmara.com/bt/rocketry/miniemaggnosecone.shtml

Estes used washers on one of their shuttle kits.

barone
04-01-2008, 04:05 PM
Estes used washers on one of their shuttle kits.
That be the Estes Shuttle Starter kit.......made of TufLight

GIJoe
04-01-2008, 04:42 PM
You could get additional Baby Bertha nose cones and change the nose weight. I was working on a "D" powered BB and I was going to call it the "Silver Bullet", plenty of nose weight and I'm sure it would had flown like a "bullet" .

I have three prototypes, never finished them off.

If I went with additional nose cones it technically wouldn't be the same rocket. I was just looking for a way to get "A" thru "E" motors in the same airframe. Local club proposed an Alphabet challenge for this years launching. It turned into self paced since I couldn't compete with the Level 3 guys after "I".

Rocket Doctor
04-01-2008, 04:52 PM
If I went with additional nose cones it technically wouldn't be the same rocket. I was just looking for a way to get "A" thru "E" motors in the same airframe. Local club proposed an Alphabet challenge for this years launching. It turned into self paced since I couldn't compete with the Level 3 guys after "I".

So, instead of changing nose cones, and, it might be difficult to make weight changes with the standard Baby beretha nose cone, why don't you just build a fllet of rockets, paint them all a different color to distinguish them from each other and possibly have a drag race. It would be most impressive.

If you have any photos, please post them for all to see.
Best wishes
RD

barone
04-01-2008, 04:58 PM
Hey Doc just finished my "E" powered Baby Bertha, planned to fly as a Motor Alphabet project. I call it A to E Flat Jam. I flew it on an E in March and it really did scream. In April at our club launch I will fly it on from A to E. The nose weight will make the "A" Flight the hardest. If I get that nailed down the rest will be easy. Great design, I am also planning a 4" diameter version for 38mm motors G-I.
What A were you planning on using?

GIJoe
04-01-2008, 09:02 PM
Probably the A8-3, ideally I would have preferred to a shorter delay. With a little better pre thinking I could've just built motor mounts into a BT-60 coupler and used 4 Quarter "A's". But I can't seem to get two 13mm engines into a 24mm mount. Rocksim claims I will get about 150 feet and stable velocity off the rail. I only have a half ounce of nose weight installed maybe a little more (Used Clay epoxy). If I remember correctly from the Estes Forum you were the man behind the little rocket. Great little flyer, I currently have three of them. The original Baby I built, one my son put together a couple of years ago and now the 24mm. I also have plans for a 4" upscale (38mm). If I get a photo of it I will post it. Right now I am holding off on painting till the weather warms up. So the newest Baby doesn't have any clothes.

barone
04-01-2008, 09:23 PM
Probably the A8-3, ideally I would have preferred to a shorter delay. With a little better pre thinking I could've just built motor mounts into a BT-60 coupler and used 4 Quarter "A's". But I can't seem to get two 13mm engines into a 24mm mount. Rocksim claims I will get about 150 feet and stable velocity off the rail. I only have a half ounce of nose weight installed maybe a little more (Used Clay epoxy). You might want to consider the A10-3T. It gives you a bit more of a power spike to get the load moving. But you can compare the two here....

http://nar.org/SandT/pdf/Estes/A8.pdf

http://nar.org/SandT/pdf/Estes/A10T.pdf

You can always use the "insert smaller motor into the larger motor casing" method for motor mount adapters. When simming it, make sure you add the weight of the empty motor case as mass.
If I remember correctly from the Estes Forum you were the man behind the little rocket. Great little flyer, I currently have three of them. The original Baby I built, one my son put together a couple of years ago and now the 24mm. I also have plans for a 4" upscale (38mm). If I get a photo of it I will post it. Right now I am holding off on painting till the weather warms up. So the newest Baby doesn't have any clothes.

No, that would be Ken (Rocket Doctor). But I use it to make Goonies. My favorite is a design from Phred called the Goony Ghost. I painted it with glow-in-the-dark paint. My niece got a kick out of it. :D

Mark II
04-01-2008, 09:40 PM
If I went with additional nose cones it technically wouldn't be the same rocket. I was just looking for a way to get "A" thru "E" motors in the same airframe. Local club proposed an Alphabet challenge for this years launching. It turned into self paced since I couldn't compete with the Level 3 guys after "I".
That's really splitting hairs :rolleyes:, but I guess you are constrained by the rules you were given for the club challenge, right? But still, simply swapping the nose cone for an identical one that just happens to have a different weight doesn't actually change the airframe itself, so... Are there any Pink Book lawyers out there? ;) (...even though this is not a Sporting Code-related issue?)

If you can't change parts, then are you required to use the same chute for the A flight as you would for the E? What do the challenge rules say about the different diameters between the A-C motors and the E? Do you have to use the very same motor mount, with no modifications, additions or subtractions, for all 5 impulse levels?

This must be some challenge, then.

Mark (working on my NAR JD... :D)

P.S. Don't take my comments above too seriously... I'm just riffing. :o

Rocket Doctor
04-01-2008, 09:56 PM
You might want to consider the A10-3T. It gives you a bit more of a power spike to get the load moving. But you can compare the two here....

http://nar.org/SandT/pdf/Estes/A8.pdf

http://nar.org/SandT/pdf/Estes/A10T.pdf

You can always use the "insert smaller motor into the larger motor casing" method for motor mount adapters. When simming it, make sure you add the weight of the empty motor case as mass.


No, that would be Ken (Rocket Doctor). But I use it to make Goonies. My favorite is a design from Phred called the Goony Ghost. I painted it with glow-in-the-dark paint. My niece got a kick out of it. :D

The Baby Bertha is in the top 5 sellers in the Estes line. Gonny's are very popular using the Baby bertha as a basic kit.

If you check out Excelsior Riocketry, Phred has a huge variety of Goony's made from the Baby bertha.