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Tedster
03-04-2008, 10:44 PM
Done maybe already, just point me in the right direction. Why is the MARK II "historically significant"? What are the details of the bottom of the nose cone, parachute, and the engine mount? What about the model Bill has of his Dad's??? Is that particular model "historically significant"?

A Fish Named Wallyum
03-04-2008, 11:12 PM
Could the Mark II have been the first Estes rocket to break apart upon ejection instead of using tumble recovery? I know it's one of the few kits to use the BT-30.

Rocket Doctor
03-05-2008, 04:58 AM
Semroc sells a clone of the Mark II
Here is a list of the Estes first 10 kits
K-1 Scout
K-2 Mark
K-2A Mark II
K-3 Space Plane
K-4 Streak
K-5 Apogee 3
K-6 rAnger
K-7 Phantom Original BT-20 no fins
K-7B Phantom BT-50 with fins
K-8 Sky Hook
K-9 Sapceman
K-10 Cobra

From what I understand, the Mark was part of Model Missiles and G Harry Stine. If this is not correct, please correct me.

Tedster
03-05-2008, 07:22 AM
We are talking Orville's roc-a-chute Mark II with the crayon sharpener nose cone, right?

Bluegrass Rocket
03-05-2008, 10:09 AM
From my point of view, Orville's Mark II was the first practical model rocket. The first rocket he made, Mark I, looked like fireworks of the time. So, I'm guessing, he wanted to get away from that look and made the Mark II. That would make the Mark II the first model rocket that looked like what we think of as a model rocket. That is, in my opinion, what makes it historically important.

On the Ye Olde Rocket Plans site,

http://plans.rocketshoppe.com/publications.htm

there are 2 good copies of articles about the Rock-A-Chute rockets. One is about 9 down "09/58 Rock-A-Chute Aerobee-Hi Review"

http://plans.rocketshoppe.com/pubs/American_Modeler/9-58/9_58AmMod.pdf

the other is farther down after the Estes stuff, "10/57 Rock-A-Chute Article"

http://plans.rocketshoppe.com/pubs/Mechanix_Illustrated/10-57/10_57Mech_Ill.pdf

These show some photos. Also see the article in Sport Rocketry in the July/Aug 2007 issue. It's about a build of the Mark II using an original Leeds Sweete plastic crayon sharpener. Some of the information that the modeler used in the Sport Rocketry article came from Bill Stine at Quest. I am hoping that this information will be a part of the "The Model Rocket Museum" mentioned in this forum and on the Quest website.

This is also one of my interests right now, as I too have an original crayon sharpener to use as a nose cone. A buddy of mine re-created the Rock-A-Chute logo for me to make a decal for the rocket. I'll post it here for all. I will be posting that build, along with an 3X upscale build of the Mark II, hopefully in a few weeks.

Somewhere on this forum, I read that someone had talked to G. Harry Stine and said he had bought a Rock-A-Chute Mark II as a kit sometime in the late 50's I'm guessing. So, this would mean that Orville kitted the Mark II and maybe sold some locally from where he lived. That would make the Mark II the first rocket kit ever sold. I love this history stuff.

Ltvscout
03-05-2008, 12:01 PM
A buddy of mine re-created the Rock-A-Chute logo for me to make a decal for the rocket. I'll post it here for all.
Thanks, Rick. Mind if I put this up on YORP as well?

shockwaveriderz
03-05-2008, 12:30 PM
rick:

check out the 5/1970 issue of Model Rocketry magazine over on Ninfingers, "The First Model Rockets" by G. Harry Stine.

You really ought to consider alowing somebody to make a mold clone of that Leeds Sweete plastic crayon nose cone so that we could all make real reproductions of the Mark 2.

hth
terry dean
nar 16158

A Fish Named Wallyum
03-05-2008, 01:17 PM
We are talking Orville's roc-a-chute Mark II with the crayon sharpener nose cone, right?

Nah. We've got Estes on the brain and forgot about that one. :o At least I did.
In that case, it's pretty obvious. It can attain altitude and sharpen the pencil that you use to fill in your log. If they could have found a way to put a Ginsu knife blade in there, we'd REALLY have been talking historic. :rolleyes:

Bluegrass Rocket
03-05-2008, 10:09 PM
Please feel free to post and use the logo.

I would not be opposed to someone casting the crayon sharpener nose cone. I have not yet tried my hand at learning to cast things. If you know the right person for the job, let me know and we will see if we can figure it out.

I also forgot to mention earlier that there is a great article about Orville Carlisle in the premier issue of Launch Magazine.

Here's a few photos of the sharpeners.

Royatl
03-05-2008, 11:39 PM
Thanks, Rick. Mind if I put this up on YORP as well?

Ya know, this is off topic and all, but I had to interject here...

Everytime I see your avatar, instead of the top of Patrick's head, I see a NAR logo.

Weird, huh?

Tedster
03-06-2008, 03:40 AM
I can make a mold.

Ltvscout
03-06-2008, 07:27 AM
Please feel free to post and use the logo.
Thanks, Rick!

Ltvscout
03-06-2008, 07:28 AM
Ya know, this is off topic and all, but I had to interject here...

Everytime I see your avatar, instead of the top of Patrick's head, I see a NAR logo.

Weird, huh?
Uhh, I don't know if you're pulling my leg or if I need to look for some issue. :o

shockwaveriderz
03-06-2008, 11:26 AM
Please feel free to post and use the logo.

I would not be opposed to someone casting the crayon sharpener nose cone. I have not yet tried my hand at learning to cast things. If you know the right person for the job, let me know and we will see if we can figure it out.

I also forgot to mention earlier that there is a great article about Orville Carlisle in the premier issue of Launch Magazine.

Here's a few photos of the sharpeners.

rick thanks for that great offer!. and the great pics! How the heck did you come across not only 1 of those,, but two and in different colors?

Let me ask around on the mold making.

Tedster is actually Ted Mahler. Hi Ted! Welcome. Great Carlisle Mark 2 article! Would you be intersted in doing a short run of resin cast nose cones?




terry dean
nar 16158

Royatl
03-06-2008, 01:42 PM
And now...

the patent:

http://tinyurl.com/36aux6

shockwaveriderz
03-06-2008, 02:06 PM
And now...

the patent:

http://tinyurl.com/36aux6


I think i've seen everything now.......


terry dean
nar 16158

ghrocketman
03-06-2008, 02:34 PM
Bill's comment about the "Ginsu" blade is hilarious.
I think a "Ronco" item should be attached as well.
How about a Dan Ackroyd special "Bass-O-Matic" ?

Bluegrass Rocket
03-06-2008, 07:15 PM
I also have a crayon sharpener in the original package. This pertains to Ted Mahler's excellent article. The sharpener Ted got had "Rocket Crayon Sharpener" printed on it as well as saying "Patented". The one I have says "Pat. Pending" which I believe to be a earlier one. This leads me to believe that the Leeds Sweete company found out what Orville was doing with their sharpener and started printing "Rocket" on it.

Ted, if you read this, I was trying to get the info that you received from Quest but, Matt no longer works there and since they moved Nettie said she wasn't sure when they might be able to help. Nettie asked me if I had contacted you. So, any chance I could get some of the info that you received?

Tedster
03-06-2008, 09:20 PM
rick thanks for that great offer!. and the great pics! How the heck did you come across not only 1 of those,, but two and in different colors?

Let me ask around on the mold making.

Tedster is actually Ted Mahler. Hi Ted! Welcome. Great Carlisle Mark 2 article! Would you be intersted in doing a short run of resin cast nose cones?




terry dean
nar 16158

Let me try on my own leeds sweety to make a mold. Then I'll be glad to share!

Ted

falingtrea
03-07-2008, 09:05 AM
I also have a crayon sharpener in the original package.

I bet you wish you could have payed 10 cents for it. ;) :)

shockwaveriderz
03-07-2008, 03:20 PM
Some historical notes on the Mark 2.

Carlisle had another version of the Mark 2 called the Mark2.5.
G. Harry Stine in April 1959 published pland for his "Lil Mark" which was a kitbash of the MMi Aerobee-Hi kit and an Adams plastic Honest John nose cone. It had the Mark 2 like fins template. This Lil Mark went on to become the Astron Mark Estes kit K-2.

I can't find any evidence that Orv Carlisle actually ever sold any Mark 2's as kits other than he send 3 pre-build RTF Mark 2's and 3 "kits" to G. Harry Stine. Once the Carlisle-Stine letters are published, we may know of other Mark 2 "kits" that he either gave or sold to G. Harry Stine.


hth

terry dean
nar 16158

Tedster
03-08-2008, 10:22 PM
I also have a crayon sharpener in the original package. This pertains to Ted Mahler's excellent article. The sharpener Ted got had "Rocket Crayon Sharpener" printed on it as well as saying "Patented". The one I have says "Pat. Pending" which I believe to be a earlier one. This leads me to believe that the Leeds Sweete company found out what Orville was doing with their sharpener and started printing "Rocket" on it.

Ted, if you read this, I was trying to get the info that you received from Quest but, Matt no longer works there and since they moved Nettie said she wasn't sure when they might be able to help. Nettie asked me if I had contacted you. So, any chance I could get some of the info that you received?

I will gather it up!!! I am still waiting on a description.
I don"t see the History Section of Quest happing soon. That is why I was looking here!

Ted

Tedster
03-10-2008, 09:37 PM
So I am seeing two things here:

1. That the Mark II was a kit sold to the public or,,,,,
2. That the Mark II was an inside kit, given only to G.H.S.

I see lots (what looks like a lot) in the article that sells rocketry to the public.

shockwaveriderz
03-12-2008, 11:10 AM
So I am seeing two things here:

1. That the Mark II was a kit sold to the public or,,,,,
2. That the Mark II was an inside kit, given only to G.H.S.

I see lots (what looks like a lot) in the article that sells rocketry to the public.

huh?

terry dean
nar 16158

Tedster
03-14-2008, 07:05 AM
Does anyone have a photo of the hardwood engine mount used on the Mark II? How about the bottom of a nose cone?

shockwaveriderz
03-14-2008, 12:21 PM
Does anyone have a photo of the hardwood engine mount used on the Mark II? How about the bottom of a nose cone?

Ted:

I can't help you much with the bottom of the nose cone, but if you look at the Carlisle patent it shows a view of the engine mount. If my memory serves me correctly, in the Carlisle mMArk 1 the motor mount was made from metal and the drawing seems to support the case for an "doughnut hole" type of motor mount where the motor is more or less pressed and squeezed into place in the donut hole itself. I would make a SWAG that Orvillse kept this motor mount for his Mark 2 and just used hardwood instead of metal.

You have to remember that intially the Mark 1 and Mark 2 only used Carlisle hand made motors from his arbor press. He didn't use a metal sleeve surrounding the motor so under pressure the paper casing would "bulge" out slightly. Vern estes when he was doing his iinitial motor testing on his pre-Mabel hydraulic press, which allowed Vern much higher press presures than Carlisles hand operated arbor press, also discovered the tendency of the paper casing to bulge under pressure, and he solved it by using a metal sleeve round the paper caisng, thus containing any tendency to bulge.

I have a Sept 1958 Aerobee-Hi build artcile and there is no mention on how the motor is retained within the model.

In a "build" article from Jan 1960 on the MMI Arcon , it states "In the original kit, a plastic "COLLAR" (My emphasis) is cemented inside the rocket body, against which the solid-propellant engine is fitted". On the 1st firing, the motor ejected instead of the nose cone being fired free. Checking with the manufacturer we (were instructed) to slip a rubber band around the motor and it then stayed in the rocket body and fired off the nose cone so the parachute came free and lowered the unti to the earth. Rubber bands are now used instead of the plastic collar. "

The way I interpret the above was that they used a simple plastic colarr or ring to friction fit the motors into. This obviously is not a real good solution, so they used a simple rubber band to provide a even better friction fit. I guess they had not invented the use of masking tape yet.

I'm sure there are some people reading this that probably have an unbuilt MMI Aerobee-Hi or Arcon stashed away that they could look at and provide pics of the collars or motor mounts used. Or perhaps paper instructions in the kit?

hth

ted: pm me offline ?

terry dean
nar 16158

Mark II
03-15-2008, 12:36 AM
Photos of the Carlisle Rock-A-Chute Mark I and Mark II models can be found accompanying GH Stine's article in the May, 1970 issue of Model Rocketry.

http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/ModelRocketry/Model_Rocketry_v02n08_05-70.pdf (http://www.ninfinger.org/%7Esven/rockets/ModelRocketry/Model_Rocketry_v02n08_05-70.pdf)

Mark

Tedster
03-15-2008, 11:52 AM
Ted:

I can't help you much with the bottom of the nose cone, but if you look at the Carlisle patent it shows a view of the engine mount. ....

terry dean
nar 16158

I looked at the patent and sure enough, it shows a cross section of the engine mount. I will try for a friction fit. Still wish I had a photo of the rear end of a Mark II. I think that one that Bill S. has was one of the original ones built by O.C. !!!!

Ted

Tedster
03-15-2008, 11:54 AM
Photos of the Carlisle Rock-A-Chute Mark I and Mark II models can be found accompanying GH Stine's article in the May, 1970 issue of Model Rocketry.

http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/ModelRocketry/Model_Rocketry_v02n08_05-70.pdf (http://www.ninfinger.org/%7Esven/rockets/ModelRocketry/Model_Rocketry_v02n08_05-70.pdf)

Mark

No photo of the engine mount,,,,,rats!

Tedster
03-19-2008, 09:49 PM
So what does the launcher for the Mark II look like? O.C. used a variable angle dowel. I have seen some low res pictures of the launcher, anyone have a good drawing or photo of the O.C. launcher? Heck, I'll take low res!

Rocket Doctor
03-19-2008, 09:54 PM
If you want to see some great MMI articles and photos, get your hands on some vintage American Modeler or American Aircraft Modeler magazines for 1959 - 1970.

Great articles and AD's, you can pick them up on ebay under back issues, or, just put in the buy column, American Modeler or ?American Aircraft Modeler , the list will come up.

Watch out for the prices, alot of the seller want a fortune for single issues, while other seller have complete years.

Happy hunting.

Mark II
03-21-2008, 11:18 AM
In a "build" article from Jan 1960 on the MMI Arcon , it states "In the original kit, a plastic "COLLAR" (My emphasis) is cemented inside the rocket body, against which the solid-propellant engine is fitted". On the 1st firing, the motor ejected instead of the nose cone being fired free. Checking with the manufacturer we (were instructed) to slip a rubber band around the motor and it then stayed in the rocket body and fired off the nose cone so the parachute came free and lowered the unti to the earth. Rubber bands are now used instead of the plastic collar. "

The way I interpret the above was that they used a simple plastic colarr or ring to friction fit the motors into. This obviously is not a real good solution, so they used a simple rubber band to provide a even better friction fit. I guess they had not invented the use of masking tape yet.
terry dean
nar 16158
If he put a few wraps of a rubber band around the motor, and then friction-fitted it into (or forced it through) the plastic collar, he could have had some, or maybe even all, of the rubber band coils acting as a "retro thrust" ring (similar to a conventional thrust ring, but situated on the other side of the mount). The rubber would be compressed as it was forced through the ring, and then would rebound once it got through, so that it would form itself into a (sort of) reverse thrust collar. (Masking tape wouldn't rebound like that if it was forced through the plastic ring.) Possible??? :confused:

Mark

shockwaveriderz
03-21-2008, 04:38 PM
Theres a circa 1963 G. H Stine designed Astron Mark over on Ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-60s-Estes-ASTRON-MARK-Rocket-Kit-K-2-Rocketry_W0QQitemZ120234661702QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item120234661702

terry dean
nar 16158

shockwaveriderz
04-18-2008, 10:55 AM
SO...is any progress being made on making clone copies of the Mark II nose cone?

terry dean
nar 16158

Tedster
04-21-2008, 08:00 PM
It has gone nowhere. I have in the past made a mold of the "nose cone" and made copies. I need to make hollow nose cones because the castings I make are heavy. I've recently had two brain operations and am currently undergoing 6 weeks of radiation. I had a brain tumor that was taken out in the operations. Right now 90-95% of the tumor has been removed. Radiation should get the rest. I am sorry I have not answered all the questions. I thought I would be more active by this time. Interacting in the groups is about all I can muster. Waiting for Vern to get back to me on the Camroc. I can type a bunch with little effort!

Ted Mahler

marslndr
04-22-2008, 05:47 PM
For what its worth, here is a photo of the Mark II from the museum of flight at Boeing field just south of Seattle.

The 2nd photo is of the rock a chute launcher.

Hope this can be of any use.

Tedster,

I hope your recovery is going well. My thoughts and prayers are with you.


Mark

shockwaveriderz
04-22-2008, 05:59 PM
It has gone nowhere. I have in the past made a mold of the "nose cone" and made copies. I need to make hollow nose cones because the castings I make are heavy. I've recently had two brain operations and am currently undergoing 6 weeks of radiation. I had a brain tumor that was taken out in the operations. Right now 90-95% of the tumor has been removed. Radiation should get the rest. I am sorry I have not answered all the questions. I thought I would be more active by this time. Interacting in the groups is about all I can muster. Waiting for Vern to get back to me on the Camroc. I can type a bunch with little effort!

Ted Mahler

thansk Ted I was just wondering. Don't worry about it. just get well.

terry dean
nar 16158

Arley Davis
05-08-2008, 08:44 AM
I have a Mark II, and as you can see from JimZ there are only 2 differences I can see from the Mark and the Mark II. Both have streamers but the Mark II brakes apart at the coupler instead of at the nose cone, and the Mark II was the first rocket to come with Decals. As for the Body tubes all three rockets the Scout and the 2 Mark’s were all BT-30 tubes., as will as the K-3 Space Plane and the K-14 Sprite. As for the nose cones on the Mark and Mark II they were both BNC-30E.

http://www.dars.org/jimz/k-02.htm

http://www.dars.org/jimz/k_02.htm

Arley Davis
05-08-2008, 09:13 AM
If you wish to clone any of the BT- 30 rockets Semroc has the nose cones and Body tubes, and the BT-20 body Tube can be used for a coupler. As for the Decals on the Mark II, I’m positive that Excelsior Rocketry can make them up in no time for their real simple black decals.

http://www.semroc.com/Store/Products/NoseCones.asp

http://www.semroc.com/Store/Products/BodyTubes.asp

http://towrowrow.tripod.com/excelsiorrocketry/

Royatl
05-08-2008, 09:43 AM
I have a Mark II, and as you can see from JimZ there are only 2 differences I can see from the Mark and the Mark II. Both have streamers but the Mark II brakes apart at the coupler instead of at the nose cone, and the Mark II was the first rocket to come with Decals. As for the Body tubes all three rockets the Scout and the 2 Mark’s were all BT-30 tubes., as will as the K-3 Space Plane and the K-14 Sprite. As for the nose cones on the Mark and Mark II they were both BNC-30E.

http://www.dars.org/jimz/k-02.htm

http://www.dars.org/jimz/k_02.htm


Hi Arley,

With the exception of Terry's post, we're not talking about the Estes Mark and Mark II. We're talking about Orville Carlisle's original model rockets from 1954 and 1957. The Rock-A-Chute Mark I which looked like a skyrocket on stilts, and the Rock-A-Chute Mark II, which looked more like modern model rockets, but had really big fins and a blunt nose cone that was made from a popular plastic crayon sharpener of the time (a replica of the Mark II is available from Semroc).

marslndr
05-08-2008, 09:55 AM
http://www.semroc.com/Store/scripts/RocketKits.asp?SKU=KV-1

Here it is. I should get one to go with my golden scout.

Bluegrass Rocket
07-19-2008, 08:14 AM
There hasn't been much movement in this thread lately but, I thought my info belonged here.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned that the Leeds Sweete crayon sharpener that I have in the package does not say "Rocket Crayon Sharpener" on it, the way the one Ted Mahler used in his Sport Rocketry acticle about building a Mark II. I thought that maybe mine was an early version of the crayon sharpener and that Leeds Sweete changed the package after they found out Orville was using them for nose cones.

So, if you look very closely at the photo from the Quest Museum photos, (link below)
http://www.questaerospace.com/Images/Museum/Pictures/Mod%20Roc%20Museum%20Slide%20Scans/Norm%20Mains%20in%20shop%201159%20California%20street%20Jan%201958.jpg
the photo looking over the shoulder of a young man, in the upper left hand corner you will see 2 Leeds Sweete crayon sharpeners still in the package. The one laying down just says "crayon sharpener" on it. You can check it with the photo I had in this thread. Thus showing that the crayon sharpeners did not say "rocket" on them until sometime after Orville was using them. I just found this to be very interesting.

Bluegrass Rocket
11-05-2008, 11:40 PM
Not much new in this thread but, I wanted to share this photo for any of you guys that enjoyed Orville's Mark II Rock-A-Chute. I'm guessing that not too many of these boxes still exist. I DO NOT own this box. The photo was sent to me by the owner who was not into rocketry. I do know that this entire box has moved on to someone else but, I don't know who. . . maybe one of you guys.

jetlag
11-06-2008, 04:44 AM
Not much new in this thread but, I wanted to share this photo for any of you guys that enjoyed Orville's Mark II Rock-A-Chute. I'm guessing that not too many of these boxes still exist. I DO NOT own this box. The photo was sent to me by the owner who was not into rocketry. I do know that this entire box has moved on to someone else but, I don't know who. . . maybe one of you guys.

That's an interesting foot sticking out of it!! :D

Ltvscout
11-06-2008, 07:29 AM
That's an interesting foot sticking out of it!! :D
Hahahaha. I was just going to say the same thing. Creepy!

Gus
11-06-2008, 11:36 AM
Rick,

I had the immense pleasure of seeing your amazing collection of Mark II reproductions, with original cones, at NARAM 50 (I was the guy sharing Sandman's tent). For those not as fortunate as me, Rick has made an incredible effort to reproduce each version of the Mark II he has found in old photos.

Is there any way you could take photos of each of your models, front and back, and post them here along with a copy of the original photo upon which you based each model?

No one else has even come close to your level of documentation of these early models and I'd hate to see such great research go unpublished.

And Ted, thanks again for your great Sport Rocketry article. It inspired a number of us to pay way more attention to this great old model.

Steve

shockwaveriderz
11-06-2008, 02:12 PM
Here's a pic I recently received from the Smithsonian of their Carlisle Mark II Rock_A-Chute they have in their collection. Its hi-resolution and it scales up to 200-400% in photo editiors that I have really nice to see it up close and personal.

You can clearly see the staples and paper fin reinforcement and the plastic nose cone "strakes".

enjoy

terry dean

Doug Sams
11-06-2008, 02:23 PM
Here's a pic I recently received from the Smithsonian of their Carlisle Mark II Rock_A-Chute they have in their collection. That baby's got a face only a mother could love :)

Seriously, while I appreciate the historcial significance of that rocket, I can see why other, later kits were so much more popular. As Detroit figured out so long ago, it's gotta function well, but it's gotta be pretty, too!

Doug

.

Bluegrass Rocket
11-06-2008, 09:45 PM
Thanks for posting that photo Terry. I think it's awesome.

I will try and get photos of my group of Mark II's in the near future.

Royatl
11-06-2008, 11:04 PM
Hahahaha. I was just going to say the same thing. Creepy!

I immediately thought of Terry Gilliam.

John Brohm
10-19-2009, 06:56 PM
Here's a pic I recently received from the Smithsonian of their Carlisle Mark II Rock_A-Chute they have in their collection. Its hi-resolution and it scales up to 200-400% in photo editiors that I have really nice to see it up close and personal.

You can clearly see the staples and paper fin reinforcement and the plastic nose cone "strakes".

enjoy

terry dean

Seeing how this thread has been dormant for awhile, I thought I'd share a photo of my interpretation of the Mark II. Built from the Semroc kit, and foregoing the ugly bits, but with an attempt at reproducing a more representative nose without having to scavenge an actual Leeds Sweete crayon sharpener.

shrox
10-19-2009, 07:21 PM
I see one of those everyday....along with original packaging.

Bluegrass Rocket
10-19-2009, 09:48 PM
John, nice job on the Mark II. The extra work on the nose is great. I never thought of adding the strips to the nose on the regular sized Mark II's. I've included a photo of my Mark II's and my upscale Mark II that I think is posted in some other thread. I just love the Mark II.

Shrox, if you mean you see a Leeds Sweete Crayon Sharpener in its package that says "Rocket Crayon Sharpener" on it, I might know where Bill got it. ;) Pass along my wish for the Museum part of the website to be re-posted, as that is where I got the inspriation for the color schemes on my Mark II's.

John Brohm
10-20-2009, 07:34 AM
John, nice job on the Mark II. The extra work on the nose is great. I never thought of adding the strips to the nose on the regular sized Mark II's. I've included a photo of my Mark II's and my upscale Mark II that I think is posted in some other thread. I just love the Mark II.

(stuff snipped..).

Thanks;

You have a great collection of Mark IIs, and the upscale must be a joy to fly.

Not being able to find a Leeds Sweete sharpener, the thought struck me to just modify the Semroc kit nose. The accompanying photo shows what I did.

shrox
10-20-2009, 08:40 AM
Shrox, if you mean you see a Leeds Sweete Crayon Sharpener in its package that says "Rocket Crayon Sharpener" on it, I might know where Bill got it. ;) Pass along my wish for the Museum part of the website to be re-posted, as that is where I got the inspriation for the color schemes on my Mark II's.

I get to see original Rock-A-Chute items, engines, rockets, packaging and the evolution of where to attach the shock cord.

Mark II
10-20-2009, 12:34 PM
Oddly enough, I only have the Semroc Mark II, and I haven't even built it yet. (Soon though, I keep telling myself, soon. :rolleyes: )

MarkII (no relation to Orville Carlisle)

Rocket Doctor
10-20-2009, 12:57 PM
I get to see original Rock-A-Chute items, engines, rockets, packaging and the evolution of where to attach the shock cord.



Shrox

I had the opportunity of going to the Garber facility in Maryland, part of the Smithsonian during NARAM 50.

Housed in this facility under climate control, I saw the G. Harry Stine collection, as well as the FIRST Rock-A-Chute model rocket as well as Orville Carlisle motors.
Carlisel
There is quite a collection of vintage rockets, Model Missiles items as well as Estes and Centuri along with the Carlise items.

All of this and the entire facility is supposed to be moved
RD

Gus
03-18-2012, 08:28 PM
An original Leeds Sweete crayon sharpener is for sale on eBay right now, ends tomorrow.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/160761809608

A Fish Named Wallyum
03-18-2012, 10:09 PM
An original Leeds Sweete crayon sharpener is for sale on eBay right now, ends tomorrow.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/160761809608
:cool: I just flew my Mark II tonight. Almost landed in the middle of US 27, but hit the roadside and cracked a fin instead. :(

jetlag
03-19-2012, 01:22 PM
To get the crayon sharpener to work as a nose cone, was a collar of some kind glued to the bottom of it, so it would fit in the BT?
I'm sure the answer to this question is on YORF somewhere...

Thanks!

Allen

Gus
03-26-2012, 03:20 PM
To get the crayon sharpener to work as a nose cone, was a collar of some kind glued to the bottom of it, so it would fit in the BT?
I'm sure the answer to this question is on YORF somewhere...

Thanks!

Allen
Picture below is from the October 1957 issue of Mechanix Illustrated article about Rock-A-Chute rockets. Photo shows the nosecone with what appears to be a wood plug.

stefanj
03-26-2012, 04:00 PM
Someone should 3D-scan one of those sharpeners so it can be fabbed.

BEC
04-10-2012, 12:11 AM
Thanks;

You have a great collection of Mark IIs, and the upscale must be a joy to fly.

Not being able to find a Leeds Sweete sharpener, the thought struck me to just modify the Semroc kit nose. The accompanying photo shows what I did.

John (or Rick): How many of the longer ridges are there around the circumference of the nose cone/sharpener - four or five?

John: thin strips of fiberboard or wood or what? I'm rebuilding a crashed Semroc Mark II (tipped off in the wind on a Quest A6-4) and would like to better replicate the sharpener/cone whilst I am at it.

Thanks!!

John Brohm
04-10-2012, 05:38 AM
John (or Rick): How many of the longer ridges are there around the circumference of the nose cone/sharpener - four or five?

John: thin strips of fiberboard or wood or what? I'm rebuilding a crashed Semroc Mark II (tipped off in the wind on a Quest A6-4) and would like to better replicate the sharpener/cone whilst I am at it.

Thanks!!

Hi Bernard;

There are five long ridges around the nose. In my reworked Semroc nose I used 0.047" square styrene strips, each cut to length and then glued to the nose with CA. After the CA had cured, I used a medium grit sanding block to taper each strip. I found that sanding each strip after it had been installed resulted in a much more consistent taper.

About a couple of months after doing my build I came across an original Leeds Sweete sharpener and discovered that the depth of the ridges at the aft end of the sharpener are barely 1/32"; they're much more subtle than what I had imagined, and using 0.030" square styrene strip to replicate the ridges would result in a much more accurate representation.

I found this to be a relatively straightforward (and cheap!) modification to make to the Semroc nose and I'm quite happy with the result. Even with my Fred Flintstone-sized ridges the overall effect, once blended and painted, is quite distinctive and I'm often asked if that's an orignal sharpener when folks see the model. If one were to use a strip size closer to the actual ridge thickness it would be very hard to tell the difference once finished and painted. I plan to build another (I quite like this model, and Carl has done his usual great job with it) and will do exactly that.

As a final note I'll mention that I had prepared an article for our club newsletter outlining my method for this rework, and I've attached a copy below.

Bluegrass Rocket
04-10-2012, 05:51 AM
Bernard,

Yep, 5 long and 5 short strakes. The cone is 2" long and the long strakes are 1.5" with the short ones being 1.25". They stick out at the base like John said and taper into the cone at the top. I tried to get a good photo but, it's not great.

Just went and checked out John's article and it is very nice. Good work!

BEC
04-10-2012, 09:47 AM
Thanks, both of you! I've looked at G. Harry's model in the Museum of Flight more than once and have some pictures I've taken of it....but couldn't tease out the right number from that or from the pics you posted, though I'd just about convinced myself it was five of each.

And thanks for the how-to, John. Very nice. Now all I need to do is stop by the hobby shop for the styrene sheet. I have a little Fourmost cutter - not as nice as the NWS Chopper, but it'll do the job.

added: It occurs to me that if 0.030 sheet would work, so would 1/32 bass wood. I probably have some of that to hand.....:)

BEC
04-10-2012, 11:42 PM
And 1/32 bass does in fact work.....I'll have to post a picture. I was not quite as methodical about the spacing as John in adding the strips, but I have to say, even unpainted, it is VERY convincing.

Thanks again!

John Brohm
04-11-2012, 05:57 AM
And 1/32 bass does in fact work.....I'll have to post a picture. I was not quite as methodical about the spacing as John in adding the strips, but I have to say, even unpainted, it is VERY convincing.

Thanks again!

Well we'll want to see some pictures indeed! Have you decided on your color scheme for finishing the model?

BEC
04-11-2012, 03:17 PM
I'll try to take a quick snap this evening and post it.

On color schemes: the crashed rocket that is being reworked was orange except for a yellow nose cone. But I'm tempted to paint the "rhinoplasty" version white and swap it onto my currently flyable Mark II which is painted to look like the one built by GHS that's on display in the Museum of Flight in Seattle. That one is has a fluorescent red body/fins except that one fin is black. That particular model also has a conventional 1/8 inch launch lug on it rather than the one that works on a 1/4 dowel. It also has the fins glued on, not attached with the staples and such. One picture showing both of these points attached. So is a better view of the model overall.

I'd love to be able to have color documentation of other Mark IIs from the early days so as to more readily be able to enter one in a Classic Model competition (NAR event P57). The way the rules are written one needs a color picture for documentation. If you have a place I can look, I'd love to know.

I was showing the reworked nose cone to my wife last night and discussing this problem and she had the brilliant suggestion that I should just paint the model in shades of grey! :D

Bluegrass Rocket
04-11-2012, 11:27 PM
Bernard,

I've included a photo of my re-makes of Mark II's in the case I carry them in. All of these color patterns I got from photos I've seen. One is modeled from the Museum that you posted a picture of. (The crayon sharpener nose was painted white, the sharpener never came in white. Bill Stine told me it was painted.)

The other photo I've included shows a photo that is from a thread here on the forum of a news reporter that visited Orville's wife and daughter and took a photo.

All the other patterns I got from the Quest Museum web page. The front page says "collection of B&W pictures" but, they are in early color.

http://www.questaerospace.com/q_museumgallery.asp

You have to look carefully at all the photos to find the different variations. The short movie that you can download has a Mark II taking off from a launch pad as well. (at 2:35 into the clip) Though, I couldn't get the link to work tonight but, I have it saved in my Ipod movies.

http://www.questaerospace.com/Images/Museum/movies/MMI_Launch.m4v

I have been biten by the early Mark II bug and I can't get enough. I wish I could find some more early photos as well. I keep hoping that Bill Stine will add more to the Quest Museum. He surely has some more historical stuff. I will try and post some "not really important but, cool" stuff about the crayon sharpeners when I get some other photos taken.

Hope this helps.

BEC
04-12-2012, 01:09 AM
Wow, Rick - thanks!

Of course I have to do up a Mark 4 in one of these schemes, no? :)

added: movie link worked for me and I now have it copied down to my MacBook.

John Brohm
04-12-2012, 06:35 AM
I'll try to take a quick snap this evening and post it.

... That particular model also has a conventional 1/8 inch launch lug on it rather than the one that works on a 1/4 dowel. ...

I was showing the reworked nose cone to my wife last night and discussing this problem and she had the brilliant suggestion that I should just paint the model in shades of grey! :D

Bernard;

On my model I wanted to retain the appearance of the original so I kept the "large" launch lug. But to make it compatible with our 1/8" launch rods I just glued a short piece of 1/8" LL inside the big one. Perfectly functional and perfectly disguised.

And yes, I would say that was quite a brilliant and practical suggestion on the part of your wife. They do seem to have this way of seeing problems differently than us!

BEC
04-12-2012, 12:24 PM
John,

The first Mark II I built from the Semroc kit I wound up flying off of 1/8 (or 3/16) rods with the simulated spent motor casing "launch lug" without doing what you did, though I did think about doing it. I actually wrote Carl at Semroc and asked his advice and his reply was something to the effect that using the big lug was not a problem because the Mark II was "so stable". That said, I expect a 3/8 lug on a 1/8 rod was one of the three factors that conspired to cause the one I'm rebuilding to crash. The other two were a pretty good breeze and the slow thrust build-up of the Quest A6-4 motor.

Here are a couple of pics I took this morning of my 1/32 basswood-based sloppy interpretation of your simulation of the sharpener nose cone.

The rocket, as shown, is all the parts from the crashed one except the BT and the parachute. You can tell the BT I used for the rebuild was previously used as a nose cone paint holding picture for other ST-10 models. My Start has a blue nose cone.....

Rick,

Yeah....the one GHS built which is on display at the MoF looks as if the sharpener is painted.

Royatl
04-12-2012, 12:33 PM
Bernard;

On my model I wanted to retain the appearance of the original so I kept the "large" launch lug. But to make it compatible with our 1/8" launch rods I just glued a short piece of 1/8" LL inside the big one. Perfectly functional and perfectly disguised.


That's similar to what I did with my Mega-Alpha (5.5 to 1 scale up of the Alpha). The scaled-up "launch lug" is made of two Alpha body tubes, one split and placed around the other, and a standard 1/2" high power lug glued within it.

Royatl
04-12-2012, 12:40 PM
John,

The first Mark II I built from the Semroc kit I wound up flying off of 1/8 (or 3/16) rods with the simulated spent motor casing "launch lug" without doing what you did, though I did think about doing it. I actually wrote Carl at Semroc and asked his advice and his reply was something to the effect that using the big lug was not a problem because the Mark II was "so stable".

Here are a couple of pics I took this morning of my 1/32 basswood-based sloppy interpretation of your simulation of the sharpener nose cone.



I haven't had a problem flying my Mark II of a 1/8" rod. The one screwy flight I had turned in a weird direction quite a few feet off the pad so the rod had no influence on it.

The real sharpener has much subtler ridges. If I build another Mark II, I plan to use slivers of 1/64" plywood or tiny styrene strip to simulate them. (or make a mold of the sharpener and make them from resin. And if I do eventually do that, I'll tell you guys. Don't hold your breath.)

BEC
04-12-2012, 12:49 PM
I thought of 1/64 ply - but having only seen the painted sharpener on GHS' model in the MoF, I figured that would be too thin (and handling that to glue it on is not something I want to contemplate). I have started to taper the bass strips already and can do more before I repaint the NC.

Those spring sunshine pics make the edges of the bass strips really stand out, that's for sure.

John Brohm
04-12-2012, 03:37 PM
...The real sharpener has much subtler ridges. If I build another Mark II, I plan to use slivers of 1/64" plywood or tiny styrene strip to simulate them. (or make a mold of the sharpener and make them from resin. And if I do eventually do that, I'll tell you guys. Don't hold your breath.)

I think that's an interesting suggestion, and it would be equally interesting to see the result with 1/64" ply. I will say though that the ridges/strakes on my sharpener are just a little less than 1/32" deep at the base; I would think that 1/64" might be just a shade too subtle. But ultimately this is a modification, so the end result only has to please the builder.

Bernard's effort is looking great, and I'll be keen to see it painted. Once the strakes are blended and finished the end effect makes for quite a distinctive appearance as compared to the stock (smooth) nose.

JohnNGA
04-14-2012, 11:30 AM
This a great thread, alot of good info. Photos of Mark 1&2, Mark 1 flies on a A3-4t and is super stable. John

John Brohm
04-14-2012, 06:22 PM
This a great thread, alot of good info. Photos of Mark 1&2, Mark 1 flies on a A3-4t and is super stable. John


Great models, each! Well done. How did you come up with the Mark 1; scaled from photos?

JohnNGA
04-14-2012, 06:59 PM
Great models, each! Well done. How did you come up with the Mark 1; scaled from photos?

Yes, used different photos. There's one somewhere of Mrs. Carlisle shown with a Mark 1&2, I tried to scale from that. I used balsa for fins and turned the N/C.

shockwaveriderz
11-05-2020, 01:41 PM
https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/rocket-flying-model-carlise-mark-ii-rock-a-chute/nasm_A19930773000

https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/rocket-flying-model-mark-1-rock-a-chute/nasm_A19930777000

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4332295

Tedster
11-05-2020, 02:45 PM
Thank you Shockwaveriderz!!! I wonder why, in the first series, there appears to be nothing in the engine section for the Mark 2 when viewed from the bottom? It's rocket body tube is BT-50ish but I don't see any trace of the hardwood engine mount. On the side is the launch lug which I understand is a empty engine tube which would rattle around in the tube as it is.

Royatl
11-08-2020, 10:49 PM
Thank you Shockwaveriderz!!! I wonder why, in the first series, there appears to be nothing in the engine section for the Mark 2 when viewed from the bottom? It's rocket body tube is BT-50ish but I don't see any trace of the hardwood engine mount. On the side is the launch lug which I understand is a empty engine tube which would rattle around in the tube as it is.


Look very closely and you'll see just a sliver of the engine mount (it would be about an inch deep).

I bet it was that way because the casing expanded with the compression, and he used that to his advantage, giving the motor mount something to grip (the expanded casing) without having to put tape around it.

shockwaveriderz
12-19-2020, 12:13 PM
Here's a drawing with dimension from GH Stine in 1970