MESS Rports

[Rocket Doctor]

I encourage you to fill out a MESS report for any motor failures from ANY manufacturer. Document any problems, with identification of the motor, photos of the motor and photos of the rocket rocket that the motor was used in.

This is needed to keep track of any problems that you have experienced with your motors.

The flying season is here and more and more flights will be flown.

MESS report forms can be found on the NAR web site.

www.nar.org

[ghrocketman]

I'd be much more likely to fill these out if all those filled out were able to be viewed by the public so we can make our own decisions about what to buy (and what is TRASH destined for the JUNK-HEAP) based on their track record.
I do NOT like the fact that the only ones aware of the overall statistics are the manufacturers and those in NAR S&T.
It should be open to the public without this bias toward the manufacturers.

[billspad]

I'd be much more likely to fill these out if all those filled out were able to be viewed by the public so we can make our own decisions about what to buy (and what is TRASH destined for the JUNK-HEAP) based on their track record.
I do NOT like the fact that the only ones aware of the overall statistics are the manufacturers and those in NAR S&T.
It should be open to the public without this bias toward the manufacturers.

That might happen if more people filled them out and there was some statistical significance to the numbers.

There's a somewhat arbitrary percentage that would cause S & T to tell the manufacturer he has a problem that needs to be fixed. A couple of motors have come close to that number but complaints about those motors showed up on the various forums long before the MESS reports started to roll in.

Part of the problem with making the data useful is that we don't have any idea how many of each motor a manufacturer makes. For example, (I'm just picking two motors. Don't assume there's a problem with them) 20 G80 failures is a lot more than troubling than 20 D12's when you consider how many of each are made.

But please don't let this discourage you from filling out a MESS form.

[Royatl]

Anecdotally, I can say that black powder catoes are *way* down. I think there may have been one out of some 450+ black powder flights at NSL, and only a handful out of some 1500+ flights at SoAR launches since January 2007. For a while in the late 90's and early Naughts, we may have had three or four per launch, and there *was* that problem with the E9's popping nozzles in 2005-6. The last one of those I remember was at the January 2007 launch. A good test of our then new blast deflectors!

[dwmzmm]

I've always filled out and submitted MESS forms for any model rocket engine failures (even
near failures - don't forget them) since rejoining the NAR and hobby in 2003. I had a rash of
engine failures until 2007, when things seem to "calm down" a bit, but the last major failure
I had was an E9-6 on my FSI vintage Maverick (last March or April, 2008) when the nozzle
apparently blew out at ignition and the model just sat on the pad belching fire and smoke
for about 10 seconds.

More about this with pictures here:

http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showpost.php?p=36542&postcount=3

That's Jeff Roberts helping me in those pics.

[Rocket Doctor]

For those who have posted photos of damaged rockets from motors in other threads, I ask that you repost those photos here with information on the type of motors and what happened.

[jetlag]

Anecdotally, I can say that black powder catoes are *way* down. I think there may have been one out of some 450+ black powder flights at NSL, and only a handful out of some 1500+ flights at SoAR launches since January 2007. For a while in the late 90's and early Naughts, we may have had three or four per launch, and there *was* that problem with the E9's popping nozzles in 2005-6. The last one of those I remember was at the January 2007 launch. A good test of our then new blast deflectors!

Yes, the D12 failure at NSL 2008 on saturday was in my Papa Tango Mars Lander. The motor ignited normally, but all the BP and ejection charge went off together as the model made it halfway up the launch rod. It finished exploding about 10 ft. up; the pictures of it are on the www.rocketsmagazine.com web site. Just click on the NSL 2008 section, select saturday's pictures and go to page 32: #'s 44883 thru 44885. I'd post 'em, but the files are massive for each picture. Pretty COOL, though.
Anyway, the CATOing engine scortched the inner 'chute tube, and its spirals separated. What temp heat would that tube have been subjected to? It completely burned the inside so fast, even burning the Kevlar lead shock cord in half.
You'll be happy to hear that, because of Tom's lower bulkhead design mod (you can remove it to get in there to replace popped rubber bands), I was able to completely replace the 'chute tube with no ill effects aside from some slight discoloration limited to the very top. Happened as the nose cone was blowing off.
I do not have the motor, but I doubt I'd see a serial # on it anyway; it was at least 9 years old.
Should I fill out a MESS report for this anyway?
Allen

[billspad]

Should I fill out a MESS report for this anyway?
Allen

Yes. Include as much information as you have.

[dwmzmm]

For those who have posted photos of damaged rockets from motors in other threads, I ask that you repost those photos here with information on the type of motors and what happened.


Those photos you see on my post about the FSI Maverick/E9-6, I also submitted them to
the NAR S/T along with the MESS report.

[snaquin]

That might happen if more people filled them out and there was some statistical significance to the numbers.

There's a somewhat arbitrary percentage that would cause S & T to tell the manufacturer he has a problem that needs to be fixed. A couple of motors have come close to that number but complaints about those motors showed up on the various forums long before the MESS reports started to roll in.

Part of the problem with making the data useful is that we don't have any idea how many of each motor a manufacturer makes. For example, (I'm just picking two motors. Don't assume there's a problem with them) 20 G80 failures is a lot more than troubling than 20 D12's when you consider how many of each are made.

But please don't let this discourage you from filling out a MESS form.

I just filled out the MESS form tonight (even though this CATO occurred about 2-1/2 years ago). Although many have reported problems with Ellis Mountain motors I've probably flown at least 30 in the G through I range and this was the first and only CATO I have ever experienced with an Ellis Mountain motor. Followed the instructions to the letter installing the provided QuickBurst igniter half way to the head end and used a stand off so as not to block the nozzle end. Blew the nozzle right after the instant of ignition as you could hear the motor coming up to pressure. The motor casing can be seen in the image below just above the launch rail. Shame that flight failed ..... RockSim was estimating almost 7,000 feet in altitude for that flight.

The rocket was an extended LOC AURA kit with the stock kit fins mounted through the wall to the motor mount with AeroPoxy ES6279 adhesive paste. It was very strong and I built another that flew successfully on an Ellis Mountain H50-10 .....

I may still have this motor casing in the garage. I think I saved it to cut up into tubing couplers for LOC 38mm tubing.

.

[Rocket Doctor]

Yes, the D12 failure at NSL 2008 on saturday was in my Papa Tango Mars Lander. The motor ignited normally, but all the BP and ejection charge went off together as the model made it halfway up the launch rod. It finished exploding about 10 ft. up; the pictures of it are on the www.rocketsmagazine.com web site. Just click on the NSL 2008 section, select saturday's pictures and go to page 32: #'s 44883 thru 44885. I'd post 'em, but the files are massive for each picture. Pretty COOL, though.
Anyway, the CATOing engine scortched the inner 'chute tube, and its spirals separated. What temp heat would that tube have been subjected to? It completely burned the inside so fast, even burning the Kevlar lead shock cord in half.
You'll be happy to hear that, because of Tom's lower bulkhead design mod (you can remove it to get in there to replace popped rubber bands), I was able to completely replace the 'chute tube with no ill effects aside from some slight discoloration limited to the very top. Happened as the nose cone was blowing off.
I do not have the motor, but I doubt I'd see a serial # on it anyway; it was at least 9 years old.
Should I fill out a MESS report for this anyway?
Allen



Fill out the MESS report, and, please post the photos here.

In My Opinion

There should be another venue to report motor failures, I think the NFPA should have a system of reporting such failures.

We need to have some sort of record of motor failures which in turn would establish patterns of motor problems or potential problems.

Once again, if you have nay photos of motr failures, please post them here.

[billspad]

There should be another venue to report motor failures, I think the NFPA should have a system of reporting such failures.


Do you mean that the NFPA codes should have a provision for reporting failures or that the NFPA should do it itself? The former is possible. The latter is highly unlikely.



We need to have some sort of record of motor failures which in turn would establish patterns of motor problems or potential problems.

Which is exactly what the NAR and Tripoli do now. It's only as good as the data. Keep in mind that the manufacturers are supposed to test 1% of the motors they make. This has a better chance of indicating a problem but I don't think they'd be willing to share the information.

[Rocket Doctor]

That's the problem.

[jetlag]

Fill out the MESS report, and, please post the photos here.

In My Opinion

There should be another venue to report motor failures, I think the NFPA should have a system of reporting such failures.

We need to have some sort of record of motor failures which in turn would establish patterns of motor problems or potential problems.

Once again, if you have nay photos of motr failures, please post them here.

Doc,
I filled out a MESS report this morning on the NAR website, as instructed. The picture shows the explosion just as it spit out everything forward; the fireball coming out of the top would be the very next frame, but the picture file is too large for this forum's settings. If you look hard enough, you'll see the little nose cone and the wrapped up Dynastar parachute already out of the tube.
Thanks for your help! From what I'm reading here, D12 CATO's are not that uncommon. Pity it was my very first launch of the day on a first flight.
Allen

[barone]

Remember, catos aren't the only type of failure modes. The last four I turned in were for weak ejections and blown nozzles. All four motors came from a blast pack (B6-4s)

[Gus]

Anecdotally, I can say that black powder catoes are *way* down.
Roy, I agree. I've seen very few recently at club launches.

Personally, my catos are down since I stopped buying motors from individuals. My experience is that Estes motors are extremely reliable, almost never a failure. What few problems I've had seem to have come from motors I bought at fire-sale prices from folks no longer in the hobby. Who knows how they were stored? Anymore, I'm not interested in such motors, even for free. :eek:

[kurtschachner]

Doc,
I filled out a MESS report this morning on the NAR website, as instructed. The picture shows the explosion just as it spit out everything forward; the fireball coming out of the top would be the very next frame, but the picture file is too large for this forum's settings. If you look hard enough, you'll see the little nose cone and the wrapped up Dynastar parachute already out of the tube.
Thanks for your help! From what I'm reading here, D12 CATO's are not that uncommon. Pity it was my very first launch of the day on a first flight.
Allen

Wow, that is a nasty failure on a really, really nice model, but at the same time a really cool photo! Poor little Mars Lander :(

I guess I offer my condolences on the Mars Lander but my congratulations on the photo :rolleyes:

[dwmzmm]

Wow, that is a nasty failure on a really, really nice model, but at the same time a really cool photo! Poor little Mars Lander :(

I guess I offer my condolences on the Mars Lander but my congratulations on the photo :rolleyes:

Agreed; that should be the picture of the day (or week, or month, or..... well, you get it!) :o

[tbzep]

Doc,
I filled out a MESS report this morning on the NAR website, as instructed. The picture shows the explosion just as it spit out everything forward; the fireball coming out of the top would be the very next frame, but the picture file is too large for this forum's settings. If you look hard enough, you'll see the little nose cone and the wrapped up Dynastar parachute already out of the tube.
Thanks for your help! From what I'm reading here, D12 CATO's are not that uncommon. Pity it was my very first launch of the day on a first flight.
Allen

I'd love to see the high resolution sequence of images. Do you have a photobucket account to post larger images?

[jetlag]

Wow, that is a nasty failure on a really, really nice model, but at the same time a really cool photo! Poor little Mars Lander :(

I guess I offer my condolences on the Mars Lander but my congratulations on the photo :rolleyes:

Thanks, very much! However, condolences aren't necessary. I was able to 'core out' the flamed 'chute tube and replace it with a brand new BT-60. Some Simple Green on the exterior cleaned up the soot, fixed and repainted a leg, and it's good as new! Ready for the next D12 ! :rolleyes:
Those pics can be seen, even the one with the fireball coming out the top, on the Rocketsmagazine web site (www.rocketsmagazine.com) Go to the NSL 2008 photos, pick Saturday (5/24), go to page 32 (that's with 20 pics per page) and you'll be able to see all three in succession. I have all three on my computer. I have no idea how to roll them up into an 'album' and post 'em here. I guess they'd need to be zipped up somehow.
Thanks for the kind words :D ,
Allen

[jetlag]

I'd love to see the high resolution sequence of images. Do you have a photobucket account to post larger images?

I'm sorry, I do not. See above :o

[Shreadvector]

Remember, catos aren't the only type of failure modes. The last four I turned in were for weak ejections and blown nozzles. All four motors came from a blast pack (B6-4s)

Cato = "Catastrophic failure" and includes everything catastrophic. blow throughs, split casings, no ejection, weak ejection, short or long delay times, blown nozzles, eroded nozzles (resulting in loss of and/or assymetric thrust), etc.