Estes Catalog Update

[Rocket Doctor]

Here is the latest on the Estes catalog, there won't be one.
This comes from a very reliable source, the only way to view the "new" catalog, is to download it from the estes website, no more print catalogs.

So, if you have a 2007 catalog, frame it, because that's it !!!

[Leo]

Bugger :mad:

[cas2047]

I'm fine with no more catalogs if Estes plan is to put the money saved into more motor configurations and more classic kit bring-backs.

[j.a.duke]

Here is the latest on the Estes catalog, there won't be one.
This comes from a very reliable source, the only way to view the "new" catalog, is to download it from the estes website, no more print catalogs.

I don't mind not having a print catalog, but I'd really like them to get it in gear and get a PDF up on the web site. Don't get me going about the web site in general-it really needs an update to be a really useful & navigable site.

Cheers,
Jon

[Rocket Doctor]

I agree, let's see what happens now....

[Hutch]

I'm fine with no more catalogs if Estes plan is to put the money saved into more motor configurations and more classic kit bring-backs.


Ha ha! Good one! Oh, you were serious.

Estes is part of a large corporation now. Any money saved will not likely be "put back" into anything. Just my humble opinion.

[Rocket Doctor]

What large corporation is Estes part Of ??

Last time I checked , it was one owner.....

[Royatl]

Well, it is a corporation. And it is pretty large compared to all other rocketry companies.

Of course, the thing is it has been a corporation for probably most of its existance.

[Hutch]

I think I spoke out of my hat.... (embarrased pause...)

I guess the Estes-cox corporation tagline fooled me - and i guess I assumed that there was a merger of unequals at some point.

I'll just slink off now....

[dwmzmm]

Does that mean Christine lied to me when she replied to my e-mail several months ago
requesting my name be put on the mailing list (for the 2008 catalog)?! She'd said one
would be sent to me when it came out..... :confused:

Correction: It was Sandra, not Christine, who replied to my e-mail on April 15, 2008 on the
subject of the 2008 Estes catalog.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

April 15th? That should have been a clue. Nothing good happens on April 15th. :rolleyes:

[AKPilot]

I wouldn't say that, generally, Estes employees "lie" about their knowledge of things within their company.

What I would say is that they're kept in the dark, or are just as unsure as the rest of us - as to what's going on.

Man, if I had the capital, I'd love to put in an offer on Estes simply for the BP motor market alone.

[dwmzmm]

April 15th? That should have been a clue. Nothing good happens on April 15th. :rolleyes:

Tax day? I'd had already done mine in early February and got that out of the way.... :D

[Royatl]

I think I spoke out of my hat.... (embarrased pause...)

I guess the Estes-cox corporation tagline fooled me - and i guess I assumed that there was a merger of unequals at some point.

I'll just slink off now....

You're right in that the history of Estes is a series of mergers of unequals.

Estes was getting pretty big in 1969 when they were bought by Damon. They had 300-400 employees, some working around the clock (I think they had to run three shifts on the Mabels to keep up with motor demand).

As the hobby slowed down in the 70's, Damon moved some of their other smaller hobby/science properties (Centuri, Arrow Crafts, Hi-Flyer Kites) to Penrose to take advantage of the physical plant and common management. After the Damon-Nomad junk bond spinoff in the late 80's, Estes jettisoned the other companies. The Nomad group failed and Estes ended up owned by an investment group, which is when Barry Tunick came in to run things (he's the brother of one of the members of the investment group).

Tunick cosied up to WalMart and started moving manufacturing to Mexico, and then to China. Estes became profitable and he started to diversify within the hobby industry, buying up a number of companies, one of whom was the struggling Cox Enterprises. The Cox brand was revived and was doing moderately well. In 2002, Tunick (and his brother and another member of the investment group) bought the company from the investment group and renamed the company to Estes-Cox Corp.

More than you wanted to know, of course, but we aim to please.

[JRThro]

You're right in that the history of Estes is a series of mergers of unequals.

(SNIP)

More than you wanted to know, of course, but we aim to please.
To me, there's no such thing as "more than you wanted to know." That was a nice brief summary of the history of the company, and it included some details that I've never seen before.

[mn-rocketry]

Estes has now essentially killed Cox. The hobby world mourned when Estes bought them in 1996. They instantly dropped about 75% of the product line, and, over the next couple years, prices shot up astronomically on the remainder. About a year or so ago, Cox dropped their sole remaining distributor to hobby shops (Great Planes). Most hobby stores now don't have any Cox products. To get the few things still sold under the Cox name, they have to order them direct.

Cox appears to have now killed all of their traditional products (.049 and other 1/2A glow engines, control line planes). The only web site out there more dysfunctional and useless than the Estes site is the Cox site. http://www.coxmodels.com

In traditional retail hobby stores (like the one where I've worked part-time for 13 years now), the Cox name has become a sad joke.

Estes abandoned their traditional printed catalog once before. There weren't any Estes catalogs for 1999, 2000, or 2001 (IIRC). In those years, they only did some small, folded fliers. At the store where I work, we probably give out roughly 1,000 Estes catalogs per year.

Alan

[Hutch]

Thanks for that great summary of Estes ownership. It may not be a giant conglomerate, but it seems to be far from the family owned/run company that I fondly remember.

I totally agree that I'd love to have the business for the engine sales alone. I may be buying most of my building supplies from Balsa machining and Semroc, but I'll be spending 100's of dollars on engines over the next year....

[Rocket Doctor]

You would need to win the lottery,for about $25 million or so, then, maybe, you could make an offer.

[MarkB.]

Wow, $25 million for Estes? Then the couple million for some Mabel-equivalents as discussed elsewhere in the forum is a bargain.

Estes is rapidly becoming a company who's sole viable product is BP motors and perhaps, WalMart starter sets. They do have dubious intellectual property in certain kit designs and they do have the Estes name for business good will. Older people from the 60's, 70's and early 80's recognize Estes rockets but that was 25 years ago. Although I have only recently returned to the hobby, I haven't heard anything good yet about the present Estes and am very disappointed with their kit prices and engine selection.

Estes does have a cash cow in the WalMart sales but unless those new people stay with the hobby there is no growth. Eventually the lack of growth will catch up with Estes.

Perhaps you are looking at the sales figures you know of for that $25M evaluation but lacking these, I'd put it at a third of that, maybe less.

No flame intended Doc, but although I have no figures, I respectfully disagree. If you've got some sales figures, share 'em.

[Rocket Doctor]

The $25 million is only my personal guess, no inside information. Estes was purchased going back to around 1994 or so for $15 million. They could be worth $50 or $100 million, I have no idea, but, it's only my guess.

It would take a substantial lottery win to buy it in any case.

This is my opinion only.

[Royatl]

Wow, $25 million for Estes? Then the couple million for some Mabel-equivalents as discussed elsewhere in the forum is a bargain.

Estes is rapidly becoming a company who's sole viable product is BP motors and perhaps, WalMart starter sets. They do have dubious intellectual property in certain kit designs and they do have the Estes name for business good will. Older people from the 60's, 70's and early 80's recognize Estes rockets but that was 25 years ago. Although I have only recently returned to the hobby, I haven't heard anything good yet about the present Estes and am very disappointed with their kit prices and engine selection.

Estes does have a cash cow in the WalMart sales but unless those new people stay with the hobby there is no growth. Eventually the lack of growth will catch up with Estes.

Perhaps you are looking at the sales figures you know of for that $25M evaluation but lacking these, I'd put it at a third of that, maybe less.

No flame intended Doc, but although I have no figures, I respectfully disagree. If you've got some sales figures, share 'em.

Tunick bought the company in '02 for something north of 15 million. Most of that was financed. Sales in 2001 were around 20 million. I suspect sales are down these days but have no way of knowing.

Kit prices are actually in line with, and in many cases, less than, what the equivalent product would have been 20-40 years ago, given changes in expectations. Forty years ago, balsa was cheap, kits usually didn't have decals, die-cut pieces were rare. Compared to 20 years ago, eh, still pretty close.

Motor selection is always a point of contention, but given the market and capacity, I can almost understand their current configuration. Motor prices are pretty much in line.
A B.8-4 cost forty cents back then should cost $2.50 today. List price of a B6-4 today is closer to $3, but it's fairly easy to get discounts to put them down to $2.

An E9 that costs about $6 today list would have only been available from Centuri and FSI back then. The Centuri MiniMax E motors cost 4.10-4.60 a pack which would've put them around $9 each today. They were actually slightly heavier, less powerful, bigger, and you had to have them shipped Railway Express! The FSI motors work out to about $15 a pack in todays money, but were less powerful, and still had to be shipped by rail.

[AKPilot]

It would take a substantial lottery win to buy it in any case.



Or a strong work ethic and a good financial backer . . . hmmmmm. ;)

[v_thunder]

I don't mind not having a print catalog, but I'd really like them to get it in gear and get a PDF up on the web site. Don't get me going about the web site in general-it really needs an update to be a really useful & navigable site.


The only web site out there more dysfunctional and useless than the Estes site is the Cox site. http://www.coxmodels.com
Alan

Points well made - there is a story to the sites if you know who to ask the how's and why's to.

[JRThro]

Points well made - there is a story to the sites if you know who to ask the how's and why's to.
I'd like to ask you the how's and why's, in case you know the answers.

Also, welcome to YORF!

[jetlag]

April 15th? That should have been a clue. Nothing good happens on April 15th. :rolleyes:

Well, my Mom was born on that day................ :D

[MKP]

I was born on April 15!!! :mad:


:p

[v_thunder]

I'd like to ask you the how's and why's, in case you know the answers.

Also, welcome to YORF!

Thanks for the welcome!

[dr_wogz]

Website's updated..