Estes, Shrox, and the Disappearing Act

[AKPilot]

Okay, let's hope someone can weight in on this - preferably the RD himself.

1) After months of waiting and empty promises, Estes finally admitted they were cancelling their catalog.

2) Also, many of the Wal-marts and Targets have eliminated Estes rockets from their shelves; allowing us to pick up some stellar deals (can you say motors for $1.24 a pack). Typically the clearing out has occurred immediately after Christmas, but in this case they whole kit-n-kaboodle's been removed and there's absolutely nothing to be found.

3) B.T. promised to a member of this board that he'd send Estes reps. to NARAM, and neither himself nor his employees ever showed.

4) It was announced elsewhere that the Shrox designed rockets have been shelved and may never be released. Thereby, if I understand licensing right, means Shrox will never be allowed to sell these designs on his own.


So, what's the deal then? There's a lot of facts here and little knowledge of what's really happening inside of the "E-Empire".

[foose4string]

There's a lot of facts here and little knowledge of what's really happening inside of the "E-Empire".

...Which is clearly how they want it.

Hard to say what the deal with WM is. Perhaps they are severing rocketry ties with the big box stores? So many times people have been bashing Estes for catering to WM, which was not exactly something I wanted to participate in. Sorry, but I like buying discounted motors, so I didn't complain. Sure the selection could have been better...but so what? They aren't a hobby store and weren't trying to be. And now, when things start disappearing off the shelves, we feel slighted? If Estes is trying to downscale their rocketry dept. and move away from the large box stores, is that necessarily a bad thing? Seems like they are damned by us if they do use WM for marketing and damned by us if they don't.

I also had a feeling they wouldn't be at NARAM. It's almost a good thing IMO. First off, it already seems as though there is some bad blood between (BT's)Estes and NAR. Plus, it also allows some of the smaller vendors more time in the spotlight, more sales, etc. Would it change peoples opinion after being absent so long? Maybe a little. It would be a good start, but I'm not convinced it would have been the be all to end all. I can't say I missed their presence all that much. It would have been a nice bonus, but ALL the other vendors made sure everyone was happy and well taken care of. Special props to Quest, Semroc, Fliskits, Launch mag, BMS, etc.

When Shrox started asking for pics of his designs in flight, I knew then that things weren't going according to plan. Time will tell. When an artist sells off their design, they take that risk of never seeing their idea being used. Ideas get shelved all the time unfortunately. It's a crying shame if we never see these designs released.

[JRThro]

Hey, I loved buying motors at $2.48 and then $1.24 a pack, and I took every advantage of Target's motor clearance that I could. Visiting at least 6 stores, some more than once, and buying every motor I could find, I now have dozens of B6-4's and C6-5's that I wouldn't have bought otherwise.

I sure hope Estes stays in business, but if they don't (and I see no indication that that's coming), it won't be the end of the world.

[kurtschachner]

Hey, I loved buying motors at $2.48 and then $1.24 a pack, and I took every advantage of Target's motor clearance that I could. Visiting at least 6 stores, some more than once, and buying every motor I could find, I now have dozens of B6-4's and C6-5's that I wouldn't have bought otherwise.

I sure hope Estes stays in business, but if they don't (and I see no indication that that's coming), it won't be the end of the world.

Well, no, not the end but it would hurt. A lot. Not for the kits but for the motors. For all the engine types that Estes has discontinued over the years, they still sell a LOT of types that simply aren't available anywhere else. Nobody else sells 13mm and 24mm black powder engines, nor does anyone sell some of the types of 18mm that Estes does.

[Doug Sams]

Well, no, not the end but it would hurt. A lot. Not for the kits but for the motors. For all the engine types that Estes has discontinued over the years, they still sell a LOT of types that simply aren't available anywhere else. Nobody else sells 13mm and 24mm black powder engines, nor does anyone sell some of the types of 18mm that Estes does.Truth of the matter is that Estes' motor selection is about as healthy as it's ever been. If you count up all the types they currently offer, the total is quite close to the max. You might need to exclude the overlap year when they were selling off the last of the shorties after introducing the T motors, but otherwise, it's a pretty high number.

I can think of several types I'd like to see offered - from Estes or elsewhere - but their current selection is still pretty danged good.

FWIW, I did some totalizing a few years ago. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was something like ~20 different types currently available, and a comparable number as the most ever.

Doug

.

[dwmzmm]

Truth of the matter is that Estes' motor selection is about as healthy as it's ever been. If you count up all the types they currently offer, the total is quite close to the max. You might need to exclude the overlap year when they were selling off the last of the shorties after introducing the T motors, but otherwise, it's a pretty high number.

I can think of several types I'd like to see offered - from Estes or elsewhere - but their current selection is still pretty danged good.

FWIW, I did some totalizing a few years ago. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was something like ~20 different types currently available, and a comparable number as the most ever.

Doug

.

Agree.

I personally enjoy having the option of getting Estes engines at the various nearby Wal-Marts in my area. Much of the time, I can usually find what I need, whether it's for sport
and/or competition flights. Add to that, having Estes engines at Wal-Marts in the Houston
area has even pressured Hobby Lobby to bring their engine prices to comparable levels.
And, from time to time, I can find great deals on some kits; once bought a Sizzler/Star Dart
combo in a blister package for only about $5. When they had a good selection of the
X-Prize kits on the shelves, the prices on most were only $8.88 (a bargain for some of the
X-Prize, but a bit more for the Gauchito, which was cheaper at Hobby Lobby). Yes, it would
be a bad omen for all of us if Estes was to pull out of Wal-Mart all together. I, for one, did
what I could to support them (Wal-Mart/Estes) when I could as well as many of our other
outstanding vendors at the same time. Hopefully, one of these "other" vendor(s) will
have the capacity to pick up where Estes (should it come to this) left off. We'll see in
the near future.

[Mikus]

Add to that, having Estes engines at Wal-Marts in the Houston
area has even pressured Hobby Lobby to bring their engine prices to comparable levels.

Where? I paid $4.99 today for a 4-pack at HL with the 40% coupon. That's pretty close to the $4.97 at WM but not even close without that coupon.

That said, something seems to be up at WM. I saw 3 boxes (not packages, boxes of packages) on the clearance shelves at a WM today for $4 a pop and my sis-n-law called me from another one this weekend saying the same. There were a number of kits on "clearance" as well.

[STRMan]

The time has never been better for Quest to expand it's engine line. Victory goes to the swift.

BTW, my local Walmart is devoid of ALL Estes products. Not just rocket stuff, but all of their R/C stuff too, as well as the R/C stuff from competitors like Air-Hog and Havoc Heli.

[dwmzmm]

Where? I paid $4.99 today for a 4-pack at HL with the 40% coupon. That's pretty close to the $4.97 at WM but not even close without that coupon.

That said, something seems to be up at WM. I saw 3 boxes (not packages, boxes of packages) on the clearance shelves at a WM today for $4 a pop and my sis-n-law called me from another one this weekend saying the same. There were a number of kits on "clearance" as well.

The HL next to the Wal-Mart on 529 near Hwy 6 DID have their engine prices the same as
Wal-Mart, but that was a while ago. I haven't been there lately so I don't know what they're
selling now. I don't always look for the "bargains," since much of the time, when I'm shopping for engines needed for competition, I'm looking for specific engines that I'm willing
to buy at any reasonable price; as the saying goes, you go out to "win (the competition) at
any price."

I can say the Wal-Marts in my immediate area (Fry/I-10, Fry/W.Little York, 529/Hwy 6,
Katy Mills) all still have a fair selection of engines (at $4.97 per pack), some starter sets,
Astrobeams, etc. Not that much, but some are still on the shelf. Just recently bought another Gauchito so I can have a replacement capsule for the one I lost at JSC several
months ago.....

[LeeR]

After hearing that the Estes 800 number went away, and other indications things were getting worse, I emailed Estes last week (from their website Customer Service form) inquiring about replacement decals for the Interceptors (I have 4 of each model). Figuring they might balk due to the quantity, I offered to send pictures of the kits, which I started buying about one year ago.

No word yet. Am I expecting too much to be emailed in a few days, at least to say they will follow up with my request? It would not be the end of the world, but I am amazed at the apparent downhill slide in the past few months or so (and probably for much longer).

I certainly will throw my support to Quest for BP motors, although I could live mostly with reloads. Problem is -- staging and clustering demands BP motors, unless you want to factor in a whole lot of extra trouble and expense.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

4) It was announced elsewhere that the Shrox designed rockets have been shelved and may never be released. Thereby, if I understand licensing right, means Shrox will never be allowed to sell these designs on his own.

Where was this announced?

[gpoehlein]

Where was this announced?

Well, it was noted on TRF - one of the members called Estes and talked to an Estes official who told him that he didn't know when, if at all, the Shrox designs would be released. However, a couple of the more incendiary members decided to start editorializing in the thread so the moderators pulled the whole thread.

Greg

[foose4string]

After hearing that the Estes 800 number went away, and other indications things were getting worse, I emailed Estes last week (from their website Customer Service form) inquiring about replacement decals for the Interceptors (I have 4 of each model). Figuring they might balk due to the quantity, I offered to send pictures of the kits, which I started buying about one year ago.

No word yet. Am I expecting too much to be emailed in a few days, at least to say they will follow up with my request? It would not be the end of the world, but I am amazed at the apparent downhill slide in the past few months or so (and probably for much longer).

I certainly will throw my support to Quest for BP motors, although I could live mostly with reloads. Problem is -- staging and clustering demands BP motors, unless you want to factor in a whole lot of extra trouble and expense.


I emailed with the same request almost two weeks ago after unsuccessfully trying the 1 800. I have 2 Interceptors. One is built the other is not. Plus, my unbuilt Interceptor E. These were all purchased immediately after their release last year.
It took them 7 days to respond back....but they did respond. They told me it would take 2 weeks to process my warranty claim. I addressed the email to Christine, but whoever responded chose to omit their name from the reply, and simply closed with "Customer Service". There seem to be inconsistencies with their CS dept. Some people claim to get responses within hours while others wait several days or well over a week. I guess you just have to be patient.

[Shreadvector]

Could they have folks on <gasp> "vacation"? It is not a giant company and if someone is out sick or on vacation or travelling to support a trade show, then things will take longer. Sure, someone might fill in, but it is probably in addition to their normal tasks.

[JRThro]

After hearing that the Estes 800 number went away...
When did that happen?

[foose4string]

Could they have folks on <gasp> "vacation"? It is not a giant company and if someone is out sick or on vacation or travelling to support a trade show, then things will take longer. Sure, someone might fill in, but it is probably in addition to their normal tasks.

I'm not complaining. I'm in no hurry. Just wanted to relay my most recent attempt at contacting CS, and have had (or heard of) similar experiences in the past. Other times, I've called the 1 800 and gotten someone right away who handled my request. My only point is, they can be inconsistent.

[rokitflite]

Could they have folks on <gasp> "vacation"? It is not a giant company and if someone is out sick or on vacation or travelling to support a trade show, then things will take longer. Sure, someone might fill in, but it is probably in addition to their normal tasks.


Quit gaspin' Fred :p . I got a notice from Great Planes that my back orders for all of the new Estes kits had been cancelled and that they were no longer offering them since it has been 6 months and they had not been available... They may be on gasp vacation, but thats still not a good sign :( .

[jetlag]

...or travelling to support a trade show....

I've never heard of Estes at a trade show, but I guess they got to go to one somewhere?

Scott, I've had the Shrox/Estes kits on my 'wish list' with Tower Hobbies for a while now (3 months, about), and the only one they have 'cancelled' was the Solar Flare launch set, tho' they still have it listed; delivery date in 'early sept.'

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/WTI0095P?FVSEARCH=Estes+rockets

The Lancer and Daedalus are 'order pendeing.'


http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/WTI0096p?&N=N&C=&P=7&S=5826034&F=LXJYF1&L=ESTT1301&S1=ESTES&S2=ROCKETS&S3=&S4=

So, I remain hopeful :rolleyes: .
Tower Hobbies is huge.
Allen

[foose4string]

Estes makes a nice kit, no doubt about it. Sure, their a few issues here and there, but by and large...nice kits. I'd be a little disappointed if that part went away, but not entirely sad. We have lots of good companies producing LPR kits, and enough resources for scratch building. It would be nice to see Estes introduce some new ideas, "bring backs", and less models with the same plastic fin can. But really, if they quit supplying kits all together, it wouldn't be the end of rocketry. If they are completely doing away with rocketry items, ie motors, then we will surely feel the hit. But only for a time. It opens the door wide open for other companies. Dollars (generally) spent on Estes motors by us, can be redirected and pooled to other ventures. The sport is here to stay, it's just a matter of how it will evolve given the available resources. IF we are indeed seeing the end of Estes "rocketry", then it's a shame. But the, "take my ball and go home" attitude would be par for the course.

[Shreadvector]

Quit gaspin' Fred :p . I got a notice from Great Planes that my back orders for all of the new Estes kits had been cancelled and that they were no longer offering them since it has been 6 months and they had not been available... They may be on gasp vacation, but thats still not a good sign :( .

Obviously we need someone to ferret out some facts. ;)

[rokitflite]

Tower Hobbies is huge.
Allen

And Great Planes is it's parent company...

[rokitflite]

Obviously we need someone to ferret out some facts. ;)


I'll send Tutti... The one in my avatar... She will hold onto the facts and not let go! :D

[Shreadvector]

I'll send Tutti... The one in my avatar... She will hold onto the facts and not let go! :D

Is there a joke involving "COBRA" motors available? (OK, that's more of a Mogoose thing...)

[jetlag]

And Great Planes is it's parent company...
Oh.............I thought it was the other way 'round. :rolleyes:
Allen

[Mikus]

The HL next to the Wal-Mart on 529 near Hwy 6 DID have their engine prices the same as
Wal-Mart, but that was a while ago. I haven't been there lately so I don't know what they're
selling now. I don't always look for the "bargains," since much of the time, when I'm shopping for engines needed for competition, I'm looking for specific engines that I'm willing
to buy at any reasonable price; as the saying goes, you go out to "win (the competition) at
any price."

I can say the Wal-Marts in my immediate area (Fry/I-10, Fry/W.Little York, 529/Hwy 6,
Katy Mills) all still have a fair selection of engines (at $4.97 per pack), some starter sets,
Astrobeams, etc. Not that much, but some are still on the shelf. Just recently bought another Gauchito so I can have a replacement capsule for the one I lost at JSC several
months ago.....

I guess I never noticed, I typically buy the motors I can't get from WM at HL - usually the D's and E's.

Still this dumping of motors at WM into "clearance" at $4 is weird. $.97 on a $5 product isn't a lot of savings for a clearance item. But they have dumped literally every rocketry item into clearance. Next time you stop in those WM (except the 529 store... heh heh heh) take a look and see if the same thing is happening.

[JRThro]

I guess I never noticed, I typically buy the motors I can't get from WM at HL - usually the D's and E's.

Still this dumping of motors at WM into "clearance" at $4 is weird. $.97 on a $5 product isn't a lot of savings for a clearance item. But they have dumped literally every rocketry item into clearance. Next time you stop in those WM (except the 529 store... heh heh heh) take a look and see if the same thing is happening.
Mike and Dave,

I just stopped at the Wal-Mart at Westview and Beltway 8 at lunchtime today. They are moving, or have moved, all of the rocketry items to the clearance aisle.

C6-5 motors at $4.00 <--- about 20 three-packs
A10-3T motors at $4.00 <--- about 8 three-packs
Bullpup and Space Ship One Launchables kits at $8.97 <--- about 2 Bullpups and 6 SS1s
That set with the LED rocket at either $16.97 or $19.97, I don't remember <--- about 5 of them
That set with the Outlaw and one other rocket at at either $16.97 or $19.97, I don't remember <--- about 3 of them

I didn't buy anything, btw.

[Mikus]

That's what I've been saying.

It kinda looks like WM is getting out of the rocketry business.

[dr_wogz]

I’ve been pondering this over the last few days..

Could it be that society has moved away from hobbies in general, the hobbies where you need to build, paint & finish something? Not only rockets, but R/C plane kits are becoming scarce as well, due to the ‘Ready To Fly’ models out there.. Their quality is getting pretty good, and there are 101+ planes to choose from now. It seems as well, the basic plastic models are also becoming scarce.. No one has time or patience.

I’m also pondering the thought that parents don’t want to have the responsibility of doing this with tier kids, helping their kids, and least of all, having to deal with the kids & others when something does go wrong. As in, our society is now pretty quick to come down on someone for little mistakes, and “Ole Jeremiah will sue if his window gets broke”. We dare let our kids out anymore, due to the seemingly increasing violence & badnes against them. Anythign deemed 'dangerous' is being pulled, anythign that can potentially damage or maim.. (If I can sue McD's for my own stupidity [hot coffe in a lap] then certainly I can be sued for an accidental misfire / misguided launch..)

So, Estes made a commitment, and [proverbially] put their eggs in a basket.. A gold lined basket, just to have the tables turn. Could it be as well, a xenophobic society would see a few kids launching rockets, and ‘Martha’ would go running to the local authorities bragging about uncovering a terrorist training cell?! (Look at that article, about the airliner “almost being shot down with a model rocket”) Estes are stuck. They've commited to much to the big box stores. Who don't want them anymore, and the smaller 'mom & pop shops' are fewer & fewer. Never mind they couldn't possibley sell 10K+ kits..

And, I’m sure we’ve all noticed the local hobby shop has either closed, or has turned into a scrapbook store / educational toy store.. But, electronic stores, and ‘e-gaming stores’ are ever popular!

I think the times, fads, & fun are changing, and changin faster than we care to accept..

[rokitflite]

I’ve been pondering this over the last few days..

Could it be that society has moved away from hobbies in general, the hobbies where you need to build, paint & finish something? Not only rockets, but R/C plane kits are becoming scarce as well, due to the ‘Ready To Fly’ models out there.. Their quality is getting pretty good, and there are 101+ planes to choose from now. It seems as well, the basic plastic models are also becoming scarce.. No one has time or patience.

I’m also pondering the thought that parents don’t want to have the responsibility of doing this with tier kids, helping their kids, and least of all, having to deal with the kids & others when something does go wrong. As in, our society is now pretty quick to come down on someone for little mistakes, and “Ole Jeremiah will sue if his window gets broke”. We dare let our kids out anymore, due to the seemingly increasing violence & badnes against them. Anythign deemed 'dangerous' is being pulled, anythign that can potentially damage or maim.. (If I can sue McD's for my own stupidity [hot coffe in a lap] then certainly I can be sued for an accidental misfire / misguided launch..)

So, Estes made a commitment, and [proverbially] put their eggs in a basket.. A gold lined basket, just to have the tables turn. Could it be as well, a xenophobic society would see a few kids launching rockets, and ‘Martha’ would go running to the local authorities bragging about uncovering a terrorist training cell?! (Look at that article, about the airliner “almost being shot down with a model rocket”) Estes are stuck. They've commited to much to the big box stores. Who don't want them anymore, and the smaller 'mom & pop shops' are fewer & fewer. Never mind they couldn't possibley sell 10K+ kits..

And, I’m sure we’ve all noticed the local hobby shop has either closed, or has turned into a scrapbook store / educational toy store.. But, electronic stores, and ‘e-gaming stores’ are ever popular!

I think the times, fads, & fun are changing, and changin faster than we care to accept..

Yes Wogz,
You are 100% right. Nobody wants to build anything anymore. I also mentioned before that Estes has gotten itself to a point that it has to make the multi-million dollar sales or die. Wal-Mart dumping rockets could be a death blow to them. If they were a company serving the hobby and educational community, they could be a smaller company with fewer employees and require less money to stay in operation. I wish they could simply throttle back and return to their roots, but I don't think that can happen now. :(

[dr_wogz]

It can, but it's a severe blow non-the-less.

The parenting thing is what I'm really trying to push. We used to have one parent at home, and one working. Now, it's both working, and teh care taker / nanny / day care who are rasing Jr. Schools seem less & less capable of 'hands on' teaching, due to more & more 'attitude' from said kids. and cut backs, and ...

And less skills to actually 'do' something..
Whatever happened to shop class? Home economics? Sceince fairs? Soap box derbies?

True, like all other things in life: some peole can't and requier pre-made..

But it just seems like we're getting lazier & lazier. Then blame (China) for stepping up & doing it for us, at the price we want it for (dirt cheap!)..

[dwmzmm]

That's what I've been saying.

It kinda looks like WM is getting out of the rocketry business.

Mikus, looks like you and John Thro may be right; I just came from the Wal - Mart
at Fry/W. Little York (needed to get a color toner for my printer, but I also intended to
"stock up" on some model rocket engines) and, lo and behold, there's NO model rocket
engines to be found anywhere! Only a couple of RTF starter sets (Patriot and the two
rocket set). No Astrobeams (but saw one marked $19 in a clearance display). Just last
week this same location had a very good supply of motors, and now they're GONE!! Maybe
the curtain IS coming down for Estes & the Wal - Mart partnership......

[Shreadvector]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0371606/

;)

[Solomoriah]

Wal-Mart raised engine prices to $6.97 a pack a few months back; Hobby Lobby raised prices at the same time, staying a buck or two higher as they had been before. Apparently the price stayed $4.97 in some stores, probably where they had a pile of them in inventory.

Now there is every indication that they may pull out of rocket engines entirely. I'm not concerned that Estes will stop selling to Wal-Mart... I'm concerned Wal-Mart will stop buying from Estes. With so much of their marketing focused on the high-volume low-end stores, I'm afraid they may suffer significant financial harm... and it doesn't look as if they have much of a plan B.

My plan B? Get the Shrox designs in hobby shops, and soon. Start catering to the hobbyists who may not buy as much, but who buy more frequently and with greater loyalty.

But their knee-jerk reaction, if in fact Wal-Mart is cutting them out (or even just cutting them back), may be to cut costs by reducing customer service, and save money by not releasing the Shrox kits, or anything else new that WE might like. Grasping at the fading hope that Wal-Mart will once again smile on them.

It worries me. The only thing I can do is take advantage of the discounts. Stock up on engines. They keep a long time, after all. If they do go down hard, I want to have enough to fly a while before I have to worry about my options.

[scigs30]

My local hobby store said they should have the Solar flare in stock in the next couple of days. When they do I will pick one up and take pictures.

[Doug Sams]

Now there is every indication that they may pull out of rocket engines entirely. I'm not concerned that Estes will stop selling to Wal-Mart... I'm concerned Wal-Mart will stop buying from Estes. With so much of their marketing focused on the high-volume low-end stores, I'm afraid they may suffer significant financial harm... and it doesn't look as if they have much of a plan B.
I'm concerned, too. But I'm wondering what the factors are: How much is low demand? And how much is poor merchandising? Seems like every time I went into Wal-Mart to see what they had, the pickin's were slim and the shelves in bad shape. Rarely could I ever find the Launchables - mostly just starter sets. The motors were usually picked over and showing signs of being ignored by the stockers as if to indicate they hadn't serviced the shelves since they set out the stock.

And, given Fred's earlier comment about how the checkers ring things up, Wal-Mart's product managers may not have known which motors were actually selling and thus which ones needed re-ordering.

So if retailing Estes rockets at Wal-Mart has been a bust, I blame Wal-Mart as much as I blame anything else.

Doug

[shockwaveriderz]

It could simply be that the economy is currently in the tank and with energy and food prices taking more or a typical persons budget and therefore disposable income, that people are buying necessities and not buying optional things like toys....

If Wal-Mart decided to stop selling Estes products, Estes woul stil be avilable in hundreds of Michaels, Hobby Lobbies, Hobby shop chains like Hobby Town, and literally scores upon scors of internet copanies.

Perhaps Estes has seen the light like Quest and decided to just sell through online vendors instead of big box brick and mortar stores.

This of course is pure speculation on my part as is 99% of the post in this thread.

I personally have never seen any Eestes products in any Target stores in my neck of the woods..... And I've also been in several Wal_marts lately and a Meijers( a regional wal-mart chain) and they both have estes product on the shelves .

So I'm not completely sure why some parts of the country doesn't have product on the shelves and other does.


Again I would guess its the current economic situation..... toys go by the waysidem when you have to eat, drive to work or school and the kidz are alos going back to school now,and all the news I have seen says that manu families are barely able to afford school stuff.


Fortuntaely for me, I've been around lonmh enough to remember recessions, inflation and stagnation: evidently alot of you younger people have only know the good times.


terry dean

[Doug Sams]

I personally have never seen any Eestes products in any Target stores in my neck of the woods..... So the sky is falling. :D

Doug

.

[gpoehlein]

That's what I've been saying.

It kinda looks like WM is getting out of the rocketry business.

Walmart isn't getting out of the rocketry biz - they're just changing out their inventory from summer to Christmas. I went to the WM in the city where I work and looked for the rocket stuff - They had their shelf planning sheets taped to the shelves, and the rockets will be going on the bottom shelf of the hobby section. The planning sheet listed shelf space for motors, shelf space for launchables and shelf space for RTF rockets. So, in their infinite corporate wisdom, WM is clearancing out the summer stock of rockets and motors to make room for the Christmas stock of rockets and motors. Makes perfect sense! :rolleyes:

Greg

[Carl@Semroc]

So the sky is falling. :D

Doug

.I think the earth is rising. At least that is what happens when a globe warms. :D

[Royatl]

Walmart isn't getting out of the rocketry biz - they're just changing out their inventory from summer to Christmas. I went to the WM in the city where I work and looked for the rocket stuff - They had their shelf planning sheets taped to the shelves, and the rockets will be going on the bottom shelf of the hobby section. The planning sheet listed shelf space for motors, shelf space for launchables and shelf space for RTF rockets. So, in their infinite corporate wisdom, WM is clearancing out the summer stock of rockets and motors to make room for the Christmas stock of rockets and motors. Makes perfect sense! :rolleyes:

Greg

Confirmed. I'm standing in a WM now looking at such a shelf. Though it appears they won't be selling individual kits this go round, but just sets. And the motor pack price is still $4.97.

[LeeR]

When did that happen?

I read this elsewhere (and not sure where). It was mentioned that support was only via the website. I'll check it out - -see if I can reach them via an 800 number..

[InFlight]

Fortuntaely for me, I've been around lonmh enough to remember recessions, inflation and stagnation: evidently alot of you younger people have only know the good times.


terry dean

Yeah, I remember being told to go into the hallway and get into a fetal position when they did the monthly air raid sirens test (nuclear attack) in school. Funny thing was we were 30 miles from Detroit and would have been vaporized anyway. :eek:

....good times.

Life is short, so don't sweat the small stuff and play hard!

[Royatl]

Confirmed. I'm standing in a WM now looking at such a shelf. Though it appears they won't be selling individual kits this go round, but just sets. And the motor pack price is still $4.97.

So, the line up for Fall '08 appears to be the Launchables set with the Outlaw and the Black Diamond, the RTF Patriot set, and a new set with the Dragonite called "SNAPS!" One section is available for motors -- the 18 piece Flight Pack display box. What combination of motors is in it is anyones guess at the moment, but I bet they'll all be 18mm.

They are on the bottom row at all three WMs I went to. On the top row, are the new airplanes featured on the Estes website. The shelf is still dominated by Air Hogs.

In the meantime, at one of the three WMs I was at tonight I hit the jack pot. The 24hr. WM at Cumming, GA (about 30 miles north of Atlanta, 10 miles from me) had A10-3T, A8-3, B4-4(!), B6-4, C6-3, C6-5. All on sale in the clearance aisle. So I bought a total of 66 motors tonight. I also got a Launchables SpaceShipOne for $7 (not that great a deal, but I'll use it as a prize at a club launch sometime this year). And I was tempted to buy the two crappy supershot tiny plastic brick rocket sets just to keep them out of some kids hands, but they were $10 each so I let that be.

I found one can of old Krylon Gloss White. So all in all, it was a good night of shopping.

[Shreadvector]

I needed 3 items at Wal-Mart so I went to the 24 hour store on the way in to work this morning. The normal huge clearance aisle was set up in the normal spot for items that are from the just-ending season and most but not all of the Estes products were there. motors were $4 per pack and they were the usual A10-3T and C6 packs. Never any B6 or B4. I walked to the toy dept and they had the normal shelf tags and one of the starter set types still in the normal location.


So, I <gasp> ASKED a manager about the products. his answer was clear speculation/frustration about what products Arkansas decides to delete and what to keep. He clearly stated that were setting their Fall Modulars now and that they clearance out tons of toys and outdoor items at this time. Sure, they may not have dumped Estes stuff last year at these stores (but may have at smaller stores), but things change from year to year. The same items can be back in time for Christmas in a few months or for Spring/Summer.

He also told me about the discounting timetable. Let's just say I did not buy anything rocket related today.

[JRThro]

He also told me about the discounting timetable. Let's just say I did not buy anything rocket related today.
Would you be willing to share that timetable with your fellow rocketeers?

[Rocket Doctor]

Okay, let's hope someone can weight in on this - preferably the RD himself.

1) After months of waiting and empty promises, Estes finally admitted they were cancelling their catalog.

2) Also, many of the Wal-marts and Targets have eliminated Estes rockets from their shelves; allowing us to pick up some stellar deals (can you say motors for $1.24 a pack). Typically the clearing out has occurred immediately after Christmas, but in this case they whole kit-n-kaboodle's been removed and there's absolutely nothing to be found.

3) B.T. promised to a member of this board that he'd send Estes reps. to NARAM, and neither himself nor his employees ever showed.

4) It was announced elsewhere that the Shrox designed rockets have been shelved and may never be released. Thereby, if I understand licensing right, means Shrox will never be allowed to sell these designs on his own.


So, what's the deal then? There's a lot of facts here and little knowledge of what's really happening inside of the "E-Empire".



I'm out of the loop since the forum closed in April 2007, but, I wouldn't write up an obituary on Estes yet.

The econo9mic climate around the world has changed, items coming from China are not what they use to be and many of the toy companies, Like Mattell are suffering, I'm only using this as an example , Estes not included here.

Gas prices have gone up, General Motors has downsized and changed their business profile, but, they aren't going out of business, making the required changes to stay in business.

Airlines have changed the way they do business as well, all cost saving methods to continue to provide service to it's customers.

As far as the 800 number goes, Estes now has an automated phone system, and customer service requests are being handled through emails, and, they do answer their emails daily.

In my opinion, Estes is no different than any other company trying to survive, make cost cutting part of their business profile and go on from there.

And with the catalog, just imagine how much it costs to produce, let's say 40,000 catalogs and to distribute them to customers through the mails and through hobby shops and retailers, that some serious pocket change there.

As for the "big box stores" they clean out product all the time, just go down any clearance aisle, and Estes products is only a small portion of their total clearance aisle.

Times have changed for the entire world economy, let's face it, the gas situation (oil) has put a big damper on everything aand everyone, and, can you imagine the cost of plastics now, it's a ripple effect.

Just go to the grocery store and see how much groceries have increaed in the past few months.

They may not give tours, and haven't in a long time and there may be weeds in the parking lot, but, it's what goes on behind those walls that counts.

Let's see what the future holds, we just celebrated the 50th, a milestone in a hobby like ours, but, we need to get more rocketeers in the fold and move on from there.

[Shreadvector]

Would you be willing to share that timetable with your fellow rocketeers?

Yes. But I want to torment some folks by making them wait. ;) For those who can't wait, they can buy them at the outrageously expensive $4 price.

I never saw $6.97 ever. :confused:

We are gonna need more cluster rockets...... :D

[Solomoriah]

Remember, don't trust the shelf price. Scan a pack. I bought a few packs at $4.00 when they were still shelf-priced $6.97. I'm waiting to see if the price drops more, at which point I'll clean them out.

I figure, buy some now so I don't miss it, but hold out on the rest in hopes of a lower price. If someone else is planning the same thing, and gets there first... at least I got some for $4.00.

[Royatl]

Yes. But I want to torment some folks by making them wait. ;) For those who can't wait, they can buy them at the outrageously expensive $4 price.

I never saw $6.97 ever. :confused:

We are gonna need more cluster rockets...... :D

The ones I bought last night had two price tags, one dated 8/15 at $4, the other dated 8/18 at $3. All except the A8-3's scanned at $4, and I had to get the cashier to change them to $3. P.o.ed the people in line behind me.

The new price tag on the reset shelves was $4.97, so you can count on that probably at least through Christmas. Still, it looked like at least that one store was putting new engine stock in the clearance aisle (lucky me!)

[Shreadvector]

The ones I bought last night had two price tags, one dated 8/15 at $4, the other dated 8/18 at $3. All except the A8-3's scanned at $4, and I had to get the cashier to change them to $3. P.o.ed the people in line behind me.

The new price tag on the reset shelves was $4.97, so you can count on that probably at least through Christmas. Still, it looked like at least that one store was putting new engine stock in the clearance aisle (lucky me!)

Like I said ;) they are probably getting rid of those old fashioned 3 packs of A8 and C6 motors to make way for the new 4 packs of B14 motors at $4.97:eek:

[Solomoriah]

Like I said ;) they are probably getting rid of those old fashioned 3 packs of A8 and C6 motors to make way for the new 4 packs of B14 motors at $4.97:eek:
Now, that must be some good stuff you're smoking...

[shockwaveriderz]

Like I said ;) they are probably getting rid of those old fashioned 3 packs of A8 and C6 motors to make way for the new 4 packs of B14 motors at $4.97:eek:

Now I know you're on drugs....:-)

terry dean

[Shreadvector]

Now I know you're on drugs....:-)

terry dean

Maybe not.

Remember the COBRA era? Estes introduced 4 packs of motors to help fight off a new mass merchandiser of rocket stuff. IIRC it was MRC. Hobby shop owners hated them since customers spent less money to get the same amount of motors so that meant less profit.

[JRThro]

Yes. But I want to torment some folks by making them wait. ;) For those who can't wait, they can buy them at the outrageously expensive $4 price.

I never saw $6.97 ever. :confused:

We are gonna need more cluster rockets...... :D
I can wait, since I've already bought a *bunch* of motor three-packs at Target for $1.24 or $2.48.
But I don't want to wait forever! :D

I never saw $6.97 at any Wal-Marts in west Houston, either. But then I haven't bought motors at Wal-Mart in a while, either.
The price that I saw posted on the empty motor shelves yesterday was still $4.97.

Well, I flew my 2-motor and 3-motor cluster rockets a few times each at NARAM-50, and I'm (only mentally so far) working on a new 4-motor cluster rocket. They all fly on B6-4 and C6-5 motors, which is what Target was clearing out.

[Shreadvector]

I can wait, since I've already bought a *bunch* of motor three-packs at Target for $1.24 or $2.48.
But I don't want to wait forever! :D

I never saw $6.97 at any Wal-Marts in west Houston, either. But then I haven't bought motors at Wal-Mart in a while, either.
The price that I saw posted on the empty motor shelves yesterday was still $4.97.

Well, I flew my 2-motor and 3-motor cluster rockets a few times each at NARAM-50, and I'm (only mentally so far) working on a new 4-motor cluster rocket. They all fly on B6-4 and C6-5 motors, which is what Target was clearing out.

I have a good model for clusters of 7 C6-3 motors:

[JRThro]

I have a good model for clusters of 7 C6-3 motors:
Hmm... a clustered tube fin rocket. I like it!

[jetlag]

Was in the Wal-Mart closest to me here in Columbia, SC. They had no rocket stuff at all, but the new shelf-placement-planning sheets were taped all over the various shelves in the Toy Dept. Where the Estes stuff would have been was a sheet that indicated there would be quite a bit of Estes stuff BACK ON the shelves, I'm guessing for Christmas. So, as some have conjectured here, Wal-Mart IS NOT out of the rocketry business after all, at least around here :D . The dearth appears temporary.
Also, it does not appear the Shrox designs were shelved after all; a build thread here shows us one already in the works sold by Toys-R-Us. Still awaiting the Daedalus and Lancer, though. Tower simply says 'pending.' :rolleyes:
Allen

[Shreadvector]

I went to one other Wal-Mart super center over the weekend to do some food shopping and I popped over to the toy dept. No motors at the moment, all shelves in transition, no layout sheets visable to show me what was coming (or not coming), several launch sets on the shelf, including the "SNAPS" which is new to Wal-Mart and exclusive to Wal-Mart and which I have not seen in other locations (but I have not been to many Wal-Marts in the last few weeks.

We will see what happens after the September inventory clear-out is over and the massive October/November/December holiday item re-stocking is underway.

They may just be flushing out stock to get cash. They hate items that move slow.

[JRThro]

He also told me about the discounting timetable. Let's just say I did not buy anything rocket related today.

We will see what happens after the September inventory clear-out is over and the massive October/November/December holiday item re-stocking is underway.

They may just be flushing out stock to get cash. They hate items that move slow.
Any news about the clearance discounting timetable?

[Shreadvector]

Any news about the clearance discounting timetable?

Nothing in writing. ;)

Anything firm/online/in writing on new MSRP for Estes products?

[Rocket Doctor]

another report from South carolina regarding WM. At the WM in York, they are also doing a reset store wide.

They have cleared out for the most part most of their Estes rockets and according to their plan-o-grams, they will be restocking for the holiday season.

It only makes sense, clear out product that has been sitting around and most everyone has and get some new items in, that's the only way to increase business.

I do hope that their engine selection will change though, get rid of those A10-3T mini's.

[gpoehlein]

another report from South carolina regarding WM. At the WM in York, they are also doing a reset store wide.

They have cleared out for the most part most of their Estes rockets and according to their plan-o-grams, they will be restocking for the holiday season.

It only makes sense, clear out product that has been sitting around and most everyone has and get some new items in, that's the only way to increase business.

I do hope that their engine selection will change though, get rid of those A10-3T mini's.

Yes, it makes sense to clear out the old items, but why put Estes motors (esp. C6-5 and C6-7) on clearance when you're just going to restock the same item? Corporate silliness at its maximum! ;)

Greg

[Shreadvector]

Yes, it makes sense to clear out the old items, but why put Estes motors (esp. C6-5 and C6-7) on clearance when you're just going to restock the same item? Corporate silliness at its maximum! ;)

Greg

They need the cash to close out their quarter. New stuff arrives later and is paid for later.

Maybe the reports of B4-4 motors in Wal-Mart are not bogus?

So, is the sky not really falling?

[CPMcGraw]

Yes, it makes sense to clear out the old items, but why put Estes motors (esp. C6-5 and C6-7) on clearance when you're just going to restock the same item? Corporate silliness at its maximum! ;)

Greg

Not necessarily silly. Perhaps Wal Mart is starting to look at their register reports a little closer, and they're seeing what we've been saying for some time. The lower impulse motors, like the 18mm A8s, B4s, and B6s, sell immediately. The higher impulse C6s don't move, probably because there are fewer and fewer places to fly them safely. If an item doesn't move in three to six months, like the C6s, then they represent a "paper loss" of profit, both from the money tied up in them, and in the shelf space they are taking up which prevents other items (which might move faster) from being displayed.

Side thought - Customers don't like seeing the "same item" collecting dust on the shelf. It gives them the perception that "there must be something wrong with it, otherwise it would have sold already".

[barone]

.......Maybe the reports of B4-4 motors in Wal-Mart are not bogus?

So, is the sky not really falling?
Not bogus at my Wal-Mart (well, the one within driving distance). They've got five more packs for $2 each. If they're still there this Friday, they won't be there Saturday ;) I cleaned them out of B6-4s this past weekend. :D

[Rocket Doctor]

Let's remember, the motors come in master packs, whatever is packed in there, that's it. Usually, A10-3T mini's, which don't sell, usually no B's and a few A's and plenty of C's.

Perhaps, WM is changing the mix of motors (I hope) that will offer a better selection, not only for the consumer but WM as well.

Also, WM dictates to Estes what THEY want on their shelves, not the other way around, and WM usually is from 6 month to a year in planning for the future.

As I had mentioned previously, the York SC WM seems to be on track with a few other WM reports posted here, that more items will be on the shelves in the future, including motors.

[Royatl]

They need the cash to close out their quarter. New stuff arrives later and is paid for later.

Maybe the reports of B4-4 motors in Wal-Mart are not bogus?

So, is the sky not really falling?

Well, since I have four packs of said B4-4 motors from WM, I'd say it wasn't bogus.

It was also a tad obvious that unknowing employees occasionally put new stock in the clearance aisle when they don't know any better!

The assortment seems to be A8-3, B4-4, B6-4, C6-3, C6-5. Sounds like they won't get the Solar Flare, which requires booster and A10-3t motors. Didn't see them at T'r'U, but didn't look for them either.

[Solomoriah]

Motors are still $4.00 a pack at Kirksville as of today; if they were $2.00 they'd be GONE. But at $4.00 a pack, they are NOT selling. I have hopes... they have three nearly full master packs, and they could all be MINE...

... where's the evil mastermind smiley when I need it?

[foose4string]

Sounds like they won't get the Solar Flare, which requires booster and A10-3t motors. Didn't see them at T'r'U, but didn't look for them either.

TR'US definitely has boosters to go with the Solarflare....B6-0's, no less. This is good news!
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y192/foose4string/B60.jpg



So, looks like Estes is here to stay. Just mixing things up...and Walmart, Target, etc. doing seasonal resets.

Last week, There wasn't any rocket stuff at the Walmart I normally go to, just a couple Astrobeams on clearance for $19.00 on a clearance shelf. This week, a few launch sets have returned to the regular shelves like the Outlaw/BD, NSA Starship, and Patriot. Motors returned, but none of the B's in the master packs yet like others have reported. This location happened to be one where the motor prices were raised to $6.97 a while back. The new shelf tag is back to the old price of $4.97, and they are ringing for $4.00 dollars at the present.

[CJU]

I like how the B6-0 flight packs still have the little package of wadding... :)

[foose4string]

I like how the B6-0 flight packs still have the little package of wadding... :)

Doesn't make much sense, does it? Doesn't bother me though, I'll use it up! I wonder how much they'd save if they left it out?

[Shreadvector]

Doesn't make much sense, does it? Doesn't bother me though, I'll use it up! I wonder how much they'd save if they left it out?
About as much as they would save leaving the igniters out of the packages of A10-3T motors that will be used in the upper stage. ;)

[Rocket Doctor]

TR'US definitely has boosters to go with the Solarflare....B6-0's, no less. This is good news!
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y192/foose4string/B60.jpg



So, looks like Estes is here to stay. Just mixing things up...and Walmart, Target, etc. doing seasonal resets.

Last week, There wasn't any rocket stuff at the Walmart I normally go to, just a couple Astrobeams on clearance for $19.00 on a clearance shelf. This week, a few launch sets have returned to the regular shelves like the Outlaw/BD, NSA Starship, and Patriot. Motors returned, but none of the B's in the master packs yet like others have reported. This location happened to be one where the motor prices were raised to $6.97 a while back. The new shelf tag is back to the old price of $4.97, and they are ringing for $4.00 dollars at the present.

Off the top of my head, I would said that these B6-0's were specially packed for Toys-R-Us, just like the motors packs at WM with the wadding included.

Hopefully, out with the old and in with the new, let's see what happens leading up to the holiday shoping season.

Just a side note, I have also seen regular stater set in the discout aisle, but, when you ask for a price, they ring up at the normal price, apparently, as noted, the store employees don't have a clue as to what is going up for discount and what isn't.

[CPMcGraw]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y192/foose4string/B60.jpg



Such a beautiful family portrait, it brings tears to my eyes... :)

Now I gotta get cracking on something to use them in... :D

[foose4string]

About as much as they would save leaving the igniters out of the packages of A10-3T motors that will be used in the upper stage. ;)

Good Point! :D With the exception, A10's can be used in other applications besides an upper stage. Whereas a booster motor, in all likelihood, will always be a booster motor ;) .

[Shreadvector]

Good Point! :D With the exception, A10's can be used in other applications besides an upper stage. Whereas a booster motor, in all likelihood, will always be a booster motor ;) .

Obviously typed by a non-owner of a Snitch or a Frick & Frack.

And need I mention that pesky middle stage of the Comanche 3? (Or, since this is yOrf, the T-Bird or Farside)?

[foose4string]

Obviously typed by a non-owner of a Snitch or a Frick & Frack.

And need I mention that pesky middle stage of the Comanche 3? (Or, since this is yOrf, the T-Bird or Farside)?


Very true. Not a saucer guy. But which of those models require wadding ahead of the booster motor? ;) And a middle stage is still acting as a booster and doesn't need wadding.

[Shreadvector]

Very true. Not a saucer guy. But which of those models require wadding ahead of the booster motor? ;) And a middle stage is still acting as a booster and doesn't need wadding.

I was referring to the extra igniters not being needed on the middle and upper stages and listing a few models that use a B6-0 as well as a C6-0 motors.

of course, if you do use the C6-0 in the Firck & Frack, you should probably stuff the top of the motor with wadding since it tends to arc over and power itself downward. I suggested that new production runs of this model use a 1/4" lug so that the flyers will use a rod that is at least 4 feet long, and sometimes 5 to 6 feet long. The 30 inch Estes rod is too short to allow it to build up a reliably safe speed as it leaves the rod, so it tends to arc over in the slightest breeze or in the presence of "gravity".

Please mail all excess and bothersome wadding packets to me. :D

[STRMan]

If Estes didn't provide wadding and ignitors with all of their motors, there would be a thread 10 times this length complaining about it.

[foose4string]

I was referring to the extra igniters not being needed on the middle and upper stages and listing a few models that use a B6-0 as well as a C6-0 motors.

of course, if you do use the C6-0 in the Firck & Frack, you should probably stuff the top of the motor with wadding since it tends to arc over and power itself downward. I suggested that new production runs of this model use a 1/4" lug so that the flyers will use a rod that is at least 4 feet long, and sometimes 5 to 6 feet long. The 30 inch Estes rod is too short to allow it to build up a reliably safe speed as it leaves the rod, so it tends to arc over in the slightest breeze or in the presence of "gravity".

Please mail all excess and bothersome wadding packets to me. :D



Thanks, but I think I can make use. :D


True enough about the igniters not being needed on middle stages. Believe me, I welcome extra igniters and wadding, which is another reason(besides price)that I don't mind buying from the master packs at major retailers...and especially since I'm not overly fond of dog barf. The "hobby" packs don't include wadding despite the higher price.
STR is very right. Easier to include the stuff than to listen to the whining if they didn't.

[Royatl]

It would cost more for Estes NOT to include it for a small number of packages than for them to go ahead and throw it in with every package.

[Rocket Doctor]

Probably TRU wanted it that way no matter if they are boosters or any other type of motor. What do they know about rocketry anyway, except sales figures???

And, it's an added bonus for all of us.

[jflis]

I was referring to the extra igniters not being needed on the middle and upper stages and listing a few models that use a B6-0 as well as a C6-0 motors.

of course, if you do use the C6-0 in the Firck & Frack, you should probably stuff the top of the motor with wadding since it tends to arc over and power itself downward. I suggested that new production runs of this model use a 1/4" lug so that the flyers will use a rod that is at least 4 feet long, and sometimes 5 to 6 feet long. The 30 inch Estes rod is too short to allow it to build up a reliably safe speed as it leaves the rod, so it tends to arc over in the slightest breeze or in the presence of "gravity".

Please mail all excess and bothersome wadding packets to me. :D

Don't mean to hijack this thread but wanted to respond. I refrain from using a 1/4" lug because few folks have a 1/4" launch rod and if they do it is usually on an "away cell" for HPR. The result there is that people will put the FnF with a 1/4" lug onto a standard rod which creates its own set of problems. A 4+ foot launch rod is certainly a good idea but do not feel it is required.

That's why we say on our site:
"LOW WIND LAUNCHES!
Just be sure to launch your Frick-n-Frack in very low winds. Saucer rockets have a tendency to weather-cock (turn into the wind) a great deal and multi-stage saucers are even MORE prone to do this. Always launch your Frick-n-Frack in dead calm and always pointed STRAIGHT up."

I am looking at an alternative design (re-design of the FnF) that will help reduce such concerns. keep watch :)

The following series of pix are of Tony's Frick-n-Frack launch at CMASS last week with a C6-0 staging to a C6-0 on a 36" X 1/8" launch rod in a 4-5 MPH wind.

The two biggest priblems I see with the Frick-n-Frack are when it is built incorrectly (a fin askew or a plate that is crooked but is considered "good enough") or when there *is* a breeze and the flyer angles the rocket into the wind... :)

In the end though, if you are not sure, the best combination is a B6-0 in the lower stage and a C6-0 in the upper.

Great kit though and a lot of fun to fly.

[barone]

Okay....I'm gonna have to get me one of those. I think my grandaughter would love to watch that!

[pantherjon]

Okay....I'm gonna have to get me one of those. I think my grandaughter would love to watch that!

You will love it too! :D Here is a video of mine going up in my front yard!
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t21/Pantherjon/th_FricknFrack.jpg (http://s156.photobucket.com/albums/t21/Pantherjon/?action=view&current=FricknFrack.flv)

Will have to take this to the launch this weekend and fly it on C's!

[barone]

Even better! Auto-rotation recovery!

[Bob Kaplow]

So your front yard is 500'x500'?

I live on a 1 acre lot. Before we built the house I was "C" legal, now the back yard is just barely "B" legal...

[JRThro]

So your front yard is 500'x500'?

I live on a 1 acre lot. Before we built the house I was "C" legal, now the back yard is just barely "B" legal...
Do you have to take your house into account when you figure the size of your launch area?

EDIT #1: I guess you do. The MRSC does say "I will launch my rocket outdoors, in an open area at least as large as shown in the accompanying table..." And a two-stage C-to-C rocket is in the D class, so 500' by 500' it is!

EDIT #2: But a 1-acre lot, if it's square, would be 208.7' on a side. If it's not square, the minimum dimension is even smaller. To be C legal, the site would have to be at least 400' in its minimum dimension. Such a lot, if square, would be 3.72 acres in area.

[Bob Kaplow]

Do you have to take your house into account when you figure the size of your launch area?

EDIT #1: I guess you do. The MRSC does say "I will launch my rocket outdoors, in an open area at least as large as shown in the accompanying table..." And a two-stage C-to-C rocket is in the D class, so 500' by 500' it is!

EDIT #2: But a 1-acre lot, if it's square, would be 208.7' on a side. If it's not square, the minimum dimension is even smaller. To be C legal, the site would have to be at least 400' in its minimum dimension. Such a lot, if square, would be 3.72 acres in area.

True, if you don't count the vacant space that was on each side of my lot at the time. Now there are houses there too.

[Solomoriah]

Y'know, I never looked before (for fear of what the results might be) but the area I'm launching in is almost exactly 500' square. Excellent!

click here to see it. (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=labelle+mo&ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=40.110934,-91.910473&spn=0.003143,0.004828&z=18&iwloc=addr)

[JRThro]

Y'know, I never looked before (for fear of what the results might be) but the area I'm launching in is almost exactly 500' square. Excellent!

click here to see it. (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=labelle+mo&ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=40.110934,-91.910473&spn=0.003143,0.004828&z=18&iwloc=addr)
Can you tell us which streets bound your launch area?

[jadebox]

Yes, it makes sense to clear out the old items, but why put Estes motors (esp. C6-5 and C6-7) on clearance when you're just going to restock the same item? Corporate silliness at its maximum! ;)


It's cheaper and quicker to clear an entire shelf and re-populate it from scratch with new merchandise than to sort through the remaining merchandise to figure out what needs to stay or not.

-- Roger

[Solomoriah]

Can you tell us which streets bound your launch area?
Boundaries: The trees on the right of the view, the houses on the left, Yancy on the north and Latham on the south. Adams is not a street there, but rather just an alley. Look at the satellite view to see how it all works out.

I forget Google Maps defaults to your preferred view rather than the view I was looking at.

The launch area isn't quite flat, sloping gently down to the trees at the east side. The section between the alley and the trees is a bean field, recently harvested.

If I launch at my Mom's farm I have one area 600' square and another 1000' square, but both are in need of mowing right now; it's all pasture, and her renter has his cows on her other farm. Both of those areas are a bit hilly. The 600' square is my favorite launch area, as I can set up my stand on the hilltop. But I haven't launched there in years (though I have hopes he'll get it mowed and baled soon and I'll be able to yet this year).

[Bob Kaplow]

I've hit both target and walmart by me, and neither had any rocket motor closeouts :(

[luke strawwalker]

Okay, let's hope someone can weight in on this - preferably the RD himself.

1) After months of waiting and empty promises, Estes finally admitted they were cancelling their catalog.

2) Also, many of the Wal-marts and Targets have eliminated Estes rockets from their shelves; allowing us to pick up some stellar deals (can you say motors for $1.24 a pack). Typically the clearing out has occurred immediately after Christmas, but in this case they whole kit-n-kaboodle's been removed and there's absolutely nothing to be found.

3) B.T. promised to a member of this board that he'd send Estes reps. to NARAM, and neither himself nor his employees ever showed.

4) It was announced elsewhere that the Shrox designed rockets have been shelved and may never be released. Thereby, if I understand licensing right, means Shrox will never be allowed to sell these designs on his own.


So, what's the deal then? There's a lot of facts here and little knowledge of what's really happening inside of the "E-Empire".


Exactly what I was alluding to in my "visited Penrose and Colorado Springs" post...

Sure makes you wonder... OL JR :)

[luke strawwalker]

...Which is clearly how they want it.

Hard to say what the deal with WM is. Perhaps they are severing rocketry ties with the big box stores? So many times people have been bashing Estes for catering to WM, which was not exactly something I wanted to participate in. Sorry, but I like buying discounted motors, so I didn't complain. Sure the selection could have been better...but so what? They aren't a hobby store and weren't trying to be. And now, when things start disappearing off the shelves, we feel slighted? If Estes is trying to downscale their rocketry dept. and move away from the large box stores, is that necessarily a bad thing? Seems like they are damned by us if they do use WM for marketing and damned by us if they don't.

I also had a feeling they wouldn't be at NARAM. It's almost a good thing IMO. First off, it already seems as though there is some bad blood between (BT's)Estes and NAR. Plus, it also allows some of the smaller vendors more time in the spotlight, more sales, etc. Would it change peoples opinion after being absent so long? Maybe a little. It would be a good start, but I'm not convinced it would have been the be all to end all. I can't say I missed their presence all that much. It would have been a nice bonus, but ALL the other vendors made sure everyone was happy and well taken care of. Special props to Quest, Semroc, Fliskits, Launch mag, BMS, etc.

When Shrox started asking for pics of his designs in flight, I knew then that things weren't going according to plan. Time will tell. When an artist sells off their design, they take that risk of never seeing their idea being used. Ideas get shelved all the time unfortunately. It's a crying shame if we never see these designs released.


I don't think that decision had anything to do with Estes... WM is all about numbers... if a product is moving in sufficient numbers, it's making them money. If it's not, it isn't. Simple. I don't think the rocket product numbers justified them keeping that product in their stores, since it was simply 'taking up shelf space' and those great motor deals we got, while good for us, is coming out of WM's profit margin on that item. Look at it this way-- if you had a store, would you order and ship a product that didn't sell very well and then pay somebody to stock it and keep it organized after the kids/adults mess it up goofing with the displays and then after it sits around awhile, have to sell it at a deep discount just to free up space, or would you put something else in that shelf space that's a bigger seller and makes you more money?? Not exactly rocket science here.... :)

The WM's in this area, especially the new ones, are phasing out their plastic model sections and getting rid of all of it, probably to put in another aisle of Bratz or WWF action figures or something... plastic models just aren't big sellers anymore, and since rockets are on the same aisle and probably have similar or lower sales numbers... you do the math...

Same reason a lot of brick-n-mortar hobby shops are having trouble... OL JR :)

[luke strawwalker]

Yeah, I remember being told to go into the hallway and get into a fetal position when they did the monthly air raid sirens test (nuclear attack) in school. Funny thing was we were 30 miles from Detroit and would have been vaporized anyway. :eek:

....good times.

Life is short, so don't sweat the small stuff and play hard!


Nah... not at 30 miles... you'd burn to death in the open or be sliced to ribbons by broken glass or be crushed under collapsing lightly constructed buildings perhaps, but not vaporized... that's the quick and easy way to go and you gotta be within about 5 miles at most to get vaporized....

Nasty stuff those nukes... OL JR

[barone]

Nah... not at 30 miles... you'd burn to death in the open or be sliced to ribbons by broken glass or be crushed under collapsing lightly constructed buildings perhaps, but not vaporized... that's the quick and easy way to go and you gotta be within about 5 miles at most to get vaporized....

Nasty stuff those nukes... OL JR
SO....how accurate were those Soviet missiles...... ;)

[foose4string]

I don't think that decision had anything to do with Estes... WM is all about numbers... if a product is moving in sufficient numbers, it's making them money. If it's not, it isn't. Simple. I don't think the rocket product numbers justified them keeping that product in their stores, since it was simply 'taking up shelf space' and those great motor deals we got, while good for us, is coming out of WM's profit margin on that item. Look at it this way-- if you had a store, would you order and ship a product that didn't sell very well and then pay somebody to stock it and keep it organized after the kids/adults mess it up goofing with the displays and then after it sits around awhile, have to sell it at a deep discount just to free up space, or would you put something else in that shelf space that's a bigger seller and makes you more money?? Not exactly rocket science here.... :)

The WM's in this area, especially the new ones, are phasing out their plastic model sections and getting rid of all of it, probably to put in another aisle of Bratz or WWF action figures or something... plastic models just aren't big sellers anymore, and since rockets are on the same aisle and probably have similar or lower sales numbers... you do the math...

Same reason a lot of brick-n-mortar hobby shops are having trouble... OL JR :)

I got nervous when I responded earlier. It seems like we go through this every year when WM does their resets. The very same stores that are discounting motors have already allocated new shelf space for more motors. So while certain things are offered at a discount during seasonal resets, it doesn't necessarily mean they going to discontinue a product entirely. WM can afford to take a loss on certain items. And who's to say they are taking a loss? Do you know what WM pays per pack? I don't.

Much has to do with location also, and regional sales. Some store don't carry any rocketry items, while others may prosper carrying rocketry stuff. I talked to a toy dept. manager a year or two ago at the WM that I frequent the most. It was during a fall/xmas reset, just like what's happening now. I didn't see any Estes stuff for a few weeks and asked if they were going to stop carrying it. She said, "Not likely, the rocketry stuff is a hot seller. We are consistently replenishing stock." A week later the starter sets, motors, and launchable packs returned. I must have missed the clearance motors(if there were any to be had) that time around.

[Rocket Doctor]

It is true that WM is getting rid of their platic models.

As far as motors go, maybe the reason is that WM will be getting a different mix of motors in their retailer packs.

It made no sence to keep having A10-3T's sitting around, when, there weren't any rockets to use them.

Most of the older retailer packs had a large selects of those mini's.

As stated above, when WM does a reset, you have no idea what will stay and what will go. I also spoke to a toy dept manager who stated to me that rockets were big sellers. I only wish that they would change the selection of starter sets and bring back some kits, once you have the starter set, then what do you do.

And, it's not Estes who says what goes into a WM. it's the WM buyers that make the decision. Maybe their buyers need to be "educated" on the products that they bring into the stores, I know one thing, many of the store managers have no clue, and, I have spoke with a few of them, including a distribution manager.

Also, go down the clearane aisle, see how many items are theere, and, when a reset is done, those same items seem to appear out of knowhere.

[dwmzmm]

Went to one of my local nearby Wal Mart the other day and got a number of C6's packs
marked $4 per pack. My wife (who works there) told me tonight (a few minutes ago, in fact)
that the price is now $3 per pack. Guess I'll have to head over there tomorrow and see what I need versus what I can buy. With the excellent launch site we now have down in
Needville, TX the C6's will come in very handy :D .

[STRMan]

I finally found some rocket related stuff in the WalMart clearance aisle after a complete absence for the last month. There were 2 Astrobeam starter sets for $15 each. That's it.

[dwmzmm]

Just got back from another Wal - Mart that's closer to my house to pick up some home painting supplies, and took a trip over to where the toys section is. Lo and behold, there's
a two tiered Estes engine display that had nothing but C6-3's, C6-5's, and C6-7's at $3 per
pack (and, I assume this is the "new" regular price for these, as the price labels were the
regular ones, not the red/white clearance labels). Even though I bought some C6's (about
six packs) last week at another nearby Wal - Mart, I couldn't help but buy some more
C6-5's & C6-7's. With some of our Hobby Lobby stores located next to Wal - Marts, I would
imagine the pressure will be on HL to reduce the price of their engines.

[Solomoriah]

I doubt very much that the $3.00 price will be the regular price; the Wal-Marts around here are all marking the shelf "$4.97" for the rocket engines at regular price.

But, as noted in the Cheap Motors thread, I just cleaned out Wal-Mart in Quincy, IL for $1.00 a pack, including the engines in the new double-decker box.

... happy happy happy ...

[dwmzmm]

I doubt very much that the $3.00 price will be the regular price; the Wal-Marts around here are all marking the shelf "$4.97" for the rocket engines at regular price.

But, as noted in the Cheap Motors thread, I just cleaned out Wal-Mart in Quincy, IL for $1.00 a pack, including the engines in the new double-decker box.

... happy happy happy ...

The $3 per pack engines I saw today are on the shelf where the regular toys are displayed,
not where the clearance toys aisle is located. The clearance aisle was about three rows
away. Unless the toy department head at this location made a mistake, it had the regular
price sticker labels instead of the half red/white clearance labels. I'll be going back at this
and the four other Wal - Marts in our area to see what transpires in the near future.

[barone]

The $3 per pack engines I saw today are on the shelf where the regular toys are displayed,
not where the clearance toys aisle is located. The clearance aisle was about three rows
away. Unless the toy department head at this location made a mistake, it had the regular
price sticker labels instead of the half red/white clearance labels. I'll be going back at this
and the four other Wal - Marts in our area to see what transpires in the near future.
Dave....you need to scan them. The $1 packs I picked up today were in the regular toys, and marked with the regular $4.97 label. But they scanned for $1!

[dwmzmm]

Dave....you need to scan them. The $1 packs I picked up today were in the regular toys, and marked with the regular $4.97 label. But they scanned for $1!

Wish that was true, but they checked out as marked at the register ($3 per pack). If they
were at $1 per pack, I would have made a bee-line back to the toy section and bought all
of them!

[Solomoriah]

At Kirksville, MO, when you scan rocket engines, the designation appears:

A10-3T ENGINES
$3.00

for instance; but at Quincy, IL, they scan like this:

MODEL ROCKET
$1.00

Assuming the pricing manager is looking at a list on a computer screen, and he or she is told "mark down the A10-3T rocket engines to $1.00," well, how does that person know what to mark down? They don't. So they mark it all down... and I reap the benefits.

Still remains to be seen if they can make a similar mistake at Kirksville, MO.

[barone]

At Kirksville, MO, when you scan rocket engines, the designation appears:

A10-3T ENGINES
$3.00

for instance; but at Quincy, IL, they scan like this:

MODEL ROCKET
$1.00

Assuming the pricing manager is looking at a list on a computer screen, and he or she is told "mark down the A10-3T rocket engines to $1.00," well, how does that person know what to mark down? They don't. So they mark it all down... and I reap the benefits.

Still remains to be seen if they can make a similar mistake at Kirksville, MO.
The A10s and C6-5s were the only ones still listed for $2.50 a pack when I picked up the others for $1 a pack. I asked the clerk if they forgot to mark the others down. He said "Not likely. Corporate tells us what to mark down." I had a real chuckle over that. ;)

[Shreadvector]

One of club members reported a Wal-mart with $2 motor packs (down from $4.97, $4, $3...).

I bought a bunch of packs at $3 and a couple of Astrobeam launch sets for $11. the rocket is extremely cool and comes with extra batteries.

[Shreadvector]

Wal-Mart has always sold the mini rockets in the twin packs of rockets as well as the boxed launch sets with small pad and two rockets, so they sold the A10-3T to go with them.

The new double decker motor boxes have the A10-3T in them as well.

The only reason we are able to buy them at the insanely discounted prices is that the computer is allowing it. The stores are putting new stock on the shelf and the computer is selling them for the "we have to get rid of existing inventory" prices which drop each week until they are gone OR until the discount cycle is over and normal pricing resumes for the new stock that then arrives to take it's indicated spot on the shelf at the normal $4.97 price.

I know that one of the rockets in the new mix is the Dragonite in the SNAPS packaging. It uses A8-3 motors as well as the B4-4 and B6-4 in the new double decker boxes. I've yet to see if any C motors will be shipped and sold in the double decker boxes.

All of the above is based on observation of a dozen or so Wal-mart stores and is not based on actually calling Estes and asking them a question. That would ruin everything, after all.

;) :D


It is true that WM is getting rid of their platic models.

As far as motors go, maybe the reason is that WM will be getting a different mix of motors in their retailer packs.

It made no sence to keep having A10-3T's sitting around, when, there weren't any rockets to use them.

Most of the older retailer packs had a large selects of those mini's.

As stated above, when WM does a reset, you have no idea what will stay and what will go. I also spoke to a toy dept manager who stated to me that rockets were big sellers. I only wish that they would change the selection of starter sets and bring back some kits, once you have the starter set, then what do you do.

And, it's not Estes who says what goes into a WM. it's the WM buyers that make the decision. Maybe their buyers need to be "educated" on the products that they bring into the stores, I know one thing, many of the store managers have no clue, and, I have spoke with a few of them, including a distribution manager.

Also, go down the clearane aisle, see how many items are theere, and, when a reset is done, those same items seem to appear out of knowhere.

[Solomoriah]

Fred, I bought an entire double-decker box of all C6 engines Saturday, so I know they are going out that way. I just wish I could get that $1.00 a pack "deal" for some A8-3 and B6-4 engines, which we burn a lot of in our small field.

[Shreadvector]

Fred, I bought an entire double-decker box of all C6 engines Saturday, so I know they are going out that way. I just wish I could get that $1.00 a pack "deal" for some A8-3 and B6-4 engines, which we burn a lot of in our small field.

What's odd is that I saw a double decker box with C6 motors in it, BUT they were old stock. i KNOW since they all had our "LAUNCH SITE INFO" stickers on them and I had not stickered any in double decker packages.

[Solomoriah]

What's odd is that I saw a double decker box with C6 motors in it, BUT they were old stock. i KNOW since they all had our "LAUNCH SITE INFO" stickers on them and I had not stickered any in double decker packages.
Whoa. Stickers. I thought of doing that but never had the guts... I'd probably put the URL for YORF on a sticker; I'd rather meet people here first rather than have them show up at my house.

The double-decker box I cleaned out at Quincy, IL must have been new since there had not been any at all a week or so beforehand, when I first checked their clearance prices.

[foose4string]

Our double decker boxes have only C6 motors. Have yet to see the B4 and B6 motors. The C6-3 and -5 are scanning for $3.00, and the C6-7 for $4.00 dollars. Shelf sticker is back to the regular $4.97 price, lowered from the $6.97 I reported a few months ago. Strange. I've bought a few packs at 4 dollar a couple weeks ago, and more recently, a few at 3 dollars. I'll go back in a few days and see if they've lowered any. At which time, I'll buy up what's left. ;)

[Shreadvector]

I went to another Wal-mart at lunchtime. Two double decker boxes on the shelf. Rear one is the A B mix. Front one is the C6 mix. i did not bother to scan as they had some A8-3 packs on the far clearance isle and they scanned for $3. I asked and they said additional reductions might occur later Friday, so I will go by later Friday and if everything scans for $1 or $2 I'm cleaning them out. And then I will hit a few more stores and eventually get home several hours later.....


:D

[Jeff Walther]

The parenting thing is what I'm really trying to push. We used to have one parent at home, and one working. Now, it's both working,


The three factors that I have noticed include the first one above, more families with two people working. Our standard of living may not be lower on a per-household basis, but it is lower on a per-wage-earner basis. Many of us need two incomes to live as well or not as well as we did as children. I've heard the complaints about people who think they need 4000 sq ft, three SUVs and twelve televisions, but the reality is more often, that it takes two incomes to keep a sub-2000 sq ft house, pay the bills, keep the two clunkers running, and put something away for retirement since no-one has a reliable pension any more.

A lower standard of living means less time for such activities.

Second, have you looked at college applications these days? When I went to school, if you scored pretty well on the SAT and had decent grades you could list a couple of hobbies on an excellent school's application and you were in. Now days the competition is so fierce that kids are pressured into more and more activities at younger ages so they can claim some kind of bizarre facility with multiple arts--while never having the time to really choose an avocation. More activities means less time for "unstructured time" type hobbies.

Third, fields are getting harder to find. Aside from the increasing development in many areas, many schools are restricting use of their fields. This affects not just rocketry but kids' ability to find a convenient place to play. Plus you've got the duck-squeezers planting pesky trees everywhere.

Sure, computers are fun and disturbingly attractive ways to spend play time, but a lot of kids would rather be outside. However, when faced with the choice of the conveniently located computer, or having to scrabble just to find a usable playing field, they're going to take the easier choice.

Most of the elementary school fields here are still usable. But virtually all of the high school fields are now unusable, whereas they were essentially auxillary city parks when I was a kid. The Jr. Highs are a mixed bag. Most of them have signs up intended to make you feel unwelcome.

If folks want to fight childhood obesity, instead of blaming hamburgers they could work on making outdoor places to play easier to find for the kids--or at least as easy as they were when I was a kid. This issue really chaps me, because the fields are already there. It's just that someone feels that nicer grass for the 50 kids on the varsity team is more important than availability to the hundreds of kids who could be using the fields.

All that said, I find a few segments of time in the evenings when my six-year-old and I can work on building some kits. We just finished the gluing on a Swift (starting simple) and are now working on a Baby Bertha. We still need to paint the Swift. About once every four weeks we have time between violin, baseball and cub scouts to go launch some of what he calls "fire rockets". (yes, I wrote "Quark" before the edit. If it had been a Mosquito, I would have known what I was talking about)

One of the hardest parts is letting him glue a fin on a little crooked or such and not grabbing it and straightening it. He'll learn after he examines the results, but the perfectionist rocket builder in me really has to be strangled back.

[Jeff Walther]

And need I mention that pesky middle stage of the Comanche 3? (Or, since this is yOrf, the T-Bird or Farside)?

Heh, the Comanche was around back in the mid-80s; IOW 20+ years ago. I remember because I lost one in an empty field across from that big mall at Bay Area Blvd and I-45 in Clear Lake. It might have been as late as 1987 though.

Has anyone ever recovered the upper stage after a three stage launch?

[Doug Sams]

Has anyone ever recovered the upper stage after a three stage launch?Yes, as a matter of fact I have. Of 10 or so 3-stage flights (including several non-Comanches), I've only lost one sustainer. Both my Comanche flights recovered all three stages including a full D-C-C stack at LDRS in 2006.

For most, I think what usually gets lost is the 2nd stage. That seems to be harder to track than the sustainer. That's why I usually try to get four other folks to help me. 1 on the 1st stage, 2 on the 2nd, and 2 (including me) on the sustainer. That is, get backup trackers on both the sustainer and the 2nd stage.

Staging is definitely not a solo event :)

Doug

.

[Carl@Semroc]

Staging is definitely not a solo event :)

Doug

... unless you used 1/2A-0 or B14-0 boosters! ;)

[Doug Sams]

.. unless you used 1/2A-0 or B14-0 boosters! ;)And the grass was short...and the winds were calm... :D

Doug...wondering if anybody ever taught a dog to fetch boosters....


.

[Royatl]

Yes, as a matter of fact I have. Of 10 or so 3-stage flights (including several non-Comanches), I've only lost one sustainer. Both my Comanche flights recovered all three stages including a full D-C-C stack at LDRS in 2006.

For most, I think what usually gets lost is the 2nd stage. That seems to be harder to track than the sustainer. That's why I usually try to get four other folks to help me. 1 on the 1st stage, 2 on the 2nd, and 2 (including me) on the sustainer. That is, get backup trackers on both the sustainer and the 2nd stage.

Staging is definitely not a solo event :)

Doug

.

I usually got the second stages of Farsides back. the Commanche stages are just so small, comparatvely.

[Jeff Walther]

I went out to my parents' house after work today. They pick up my son after school about once a week and then I retrieve him after work.

So I managed to gather up most of the rocket remnants out there. I owned a Comanche long after my main bout of rocketry. I mostly stopped in '75, but I guess I had a brief resurgence in 87 - 89 given the model bits I remember and have found laying about.

Anyway, I remember losing that comanche upper stage. Today, at my folks' house I found both of the lower stages, so apparently I didn't have any trouble recovering my lower stages. It was the top that got away.

I also found my Goblin, a Scrambler (the X3 cluster with clear payload tube), a slightly banged up X-wing fighter, a very very banged up Klingon ship and Enterprise, some interesting original designs (well interesting to me), a mostly burned Midget (the mini-engine version) which, if memory serves is actually a clone I built of my original Midget, a clone of the Orbital Transport which I built after I lost my original booster. I still had most or all of the fin patterns, but I kind of remember sizing the body tubes by measuring the photographs and scaling the tubes based on the relative sizes of the fin photos and patterns. I found both the original glider and the copy, but the copy has a wing broken at the root. Oh, and my Saturn V, which seems pretty well built, but the escape tower is missing. And at least one of the nozzels from the display that you insert when the thing isn't flying. Oh, and three of the four tiny fins are broken off and I can't open the thing. I'll need to look at the on-line plans to remember where it's supposed to separate. I also found my (balsa) Mercury capsule, again missing the escape tower with the wrap nicely attached, but no sign of any of the rest of the Mercury. I can't remember what happened to that thing. But if I lost it in a launch why would I still have the capsule?

Oh, and I found my old Valkyrie. That was actually my first rocket, a cold power. The fins are completely gone, but the tank and pressure release dingus and the upper parachute compartment and nose cone are all there. I need to hunt the nozzle, metal pin and the plug. I know I've seen that nozzle somewhere. I guess I need the fill tool too, if I ever want to try to launch it again. First, I'll need to find some of the plastic stuff you use to hold on the balsa fins.

[jflis]

.. unless you used 1/2A-0 or B14-0 boosters! ;)

Or a Frick-n-Frack :D

[Initiator001]

<snip>


4) It was announced elsewhere that the Shrox designed rockets have been shelved and may never be released. Thereby, if I understand licensing right, means Shrox will never be allowed to sell these designs on his own.



I received an e-mail from Tower Hobbies today informing me that my backorder for the Shrox/Estes Daedalus and Lancer kits has been cancelled as these items are no longer available. :(

Bob

[Ltvscout]

I received an e-mail from Tower Hobbies today informing me that my backorder for the Shrox/Estes Daedalus and Lancer kits has been cancelled as these items are no longer available.
Which is one of the reasons why I made the comment of I'll believe it when I see it when they announced the classic kit series. I can go back through the Vendor forum and find all kinds of other kits they announced that were never to be seen as well.

[BoosterDude]

Yep, I agree. I'll believe the new releases when they are on the shelves. Until then, believing in Estes promises will leave you upset everytime. Cloning is the best way to get Classic Estes designs.....or maybe ebay.

[Mark II]

Well, there's nothing wrong with registering your response to a new product announcement, since it doesn't cost you a dime. I'm sure that vendors pay close attention to these reactions, too, and that they may even play a role in the decision by certain companies in some cases to finally greenlight the production of the items. As always, though, the proof is in the pudding, but you can't (or shouldn't, anyway :rolleyes: ) buy a new product until it is actually put up for sale. In the meantime, it doesn't cost anything to discuss a vendor's new product announcement and to register an opinion, even if the product ultimately turns into vapor.

It is worth noting, though, that many vendors, such as Semroc and FlisKits, refrain from making new product announcements until the item is in production and is ready, or nearly ready, to be released for sale. When you read new product announcements from these companies, you never have any doubt that you will actually be able to purchase the items, and very soon, too, if not immediately.

Mark \\.

[Chris_Timm]

Shrox/Estes Daedalus and Lancer
Bob


Which SHROX designs were these supposed to be?

I'll guess the Lancer was the Stiletto design.
Not sure about the other one.

[chanstevens]

It is worth noting, though, that many vendors, such as Semroc and FlisKits, refrain from making new product announcements until the item is in production and is ready, or nearly ready, to be released for sale. When you read new product announcements from these companies, you never have any doubt that you will actually be able to purchase the items, and very soon, too, if not immediately.

Mark \\.

Well, almost always...Semroc's a little behind their planned release of the Stryker, Visitor and Tau Zero from Christmas 2007 (http://www.semroc.com/documents/christmas-email2007.html) , but I guess we can let them slide once in a while, and as anyone who's shot the breeze with Jim Flis can tell you about his unoffical product release plans, the more he gets done the behinder he gets :p .

[Mark II]

Well, almost always...Semroc's a little behind their planned release of the Stryker, Visitor and Tau Zero from Christmas 2007 (http://www.semroc.com/documents/christmas-email2007.html) , but I guess we can let them slide once in a while, ...
Yeah, I forgot about those. But with Semroc's excellent track record, I have no doubt that we WILL see (http://www.semroc.com/Store/scripts/RocketKits.asp?SKU=KN-3) those (http://www.semroc.com/Store/scripts/RocketKits.asp?SKU=KN-1) kits (http://www.semroc.com/Store/scripts/RocketKits.asp?SKU=KN-2)...someday. :rolleyes: (Have faith, Jay and Craig, have faith...)

...and as anyone who's shot the breeze with Jim Flis can tell you about his unoffical product release plans, the more he gets done the behinder he gets :p .
Shooting the breeze at NARAM or another launch is NOT the same thing as making an official product announcement! :p

By the way, I know that Carl put a "Tip Jar" on the Visitor page (http://www.semroc.com/Store/scripts/RocketKits.asp?SKU=KN-1) for JimZ, but I'm confused - did JimZ design the Visitor, or does he just host the plans at his website? And, either way, does his website have the plan? I haven't been able to find it there. :confused:

Mark \\.

[CPMcGraw]

Yeah, I forgot about those. But with Semroc's excellent track record, I have no doubt that we WILL see (http://www.semroc.com/Store/scripts/RocketKits.asp?SKU=KN-3) those (http://www.semroc.com/Store/scripts/RocketKits.asp?SKU=KN-1) kits (http://www.semroc.com/Store/scripts/RocketKits.asp?SKU=KN-2)...someday. :rolleyes: (Have faith, Jay and Craig, have faith...)

I'm not worried. And Carl knows if he ever needs another new design or two, there's at least a hundred he can choose from that can be easily kitted where that one came from!

[jflis]

Well, almost always...Semroc's a little behind their planned release of the Stryker, Visitor and Tau Zero from Christmas 2007 (http://www.semroc.com/documents/christmas-email2007.html) , but I guess we can let them slide once in a while, and as anyone who's shot the breeze with Jim Flis can tell you about his unoffical product release plans, the more he gets done the behinder he gets :p .

Tell me about it... LOL I (and Carl) have discovered that to talk about a rocket before it's ready to go into the bag can be a bad idea unless you like a dozen threads spread across a half dozen forums, not to mention a ton of email, all asking about the rumored kits... LOL

I'm still fielding questions about kits I talked about a few years ago that never made it into production for one reason or another... :)

Just wait till you see what's on the drawing board NOW for release before the end of the year (God willing and the creek don't rise...) :D

jim

[Tau Zero]

Yeah, I forgot about those. But with Semroc's excellent track record, I have no doubt that we WILL see (http://www.semroc.com/Store/scripts/RocketKits.asp?SKU=KN-3) those (http://www.semroc.com/Store/scripts/RocketKits.asp?SKU=KN-1) kits (http://www.semroc.com/Store/scripts/RocketKits.asp?SKU=KN-2)...someday. :rolleyes: (Have faith, Jay and Craig, have faith...)I'm not worried. And Carl knows if he ever needs another new design or two, there's at least a hundred he can choose from that can be easily kitted where that one came from!I'm not worried, either. Just seeing from the outside how hard Carl, Sheryl, and Bruce work... Boy, I'm amazed at all the stuff they *are* able to pull off!

(chuckling) And for the folks who say, "I don't need any instructions, just send me the parts..." :rolleyes: ...Well, that's probably *not* what you *really* want, after all. ;) :p

And like Craig, I've got some designs that Jim Pierson accused me of "keeping for myself" (to possibly be released at Some Other Time). :o


Cheers,

[JRThro]

Tell me about it... LOL I (and Carl) have discovered that to talk about a rocket before it's ready to go into the bag can be a bad idea unless you like a dozen threads spread across a half dozen forums...
Jim, you *have* to tell us... where the 4 other forums are that you mentioned!!! (since I clearly already know about YORF and TRF)
:eek: ;)

[James Pierson]

And like Craig, I've got some designs that Jim Pierson accused me of "keeping for myself" (to possibly be released at Some Other Time). :o


Cheers,


Ah Ha, I believe one would definetly call that an admission of GUILT! :eek: ;)
Repent, design hoarder, Repent! :chuckle:

All in good fun.
Your Buddy, JP

James Pierson
NAR# 77907

[Tau Zero]

By the way, I know that Carl put a "Tip Jar" on the Visitor page (http://www.semroc.com/Store/scripts/RocketKits.asp?SKU=KN-1) for JimZ, but I'm confused - did JimZ design the Visitor, or does he just host the plans at his website? And, either way, does his website have the plan? I haven't been able to find it there. :confused:Mark,

From what I recall of that Semroc Christmas newsletter mentioned earlier, Jim Zalewski designed the Visitor, and Carl offered to give Jim the proceeds from a good portion of the kits so that all of us who had benefited from the JimZ website could make a contribution directly to him. ;) :D :cool:

[At least, that's how my fuzzy middle-aged brain recalls it. :o ]


Cheers,

[Mark II]

Mark,

From what I recall of that Semroc Christmas newsletter mentioned earlier, Jim Zalewski designed the Visitor, and Carl offered to give Jim the proceeds from a good portion of the kits so that all of us who had benefited from the JimZ website could make a contribution directly to him. ;) :D :cool:

[At least, that's how my fuzzy middle-aged brain recalls it. :o ]


Cheers,
A-ha! Yes, it's all coming back to me now...

I wish I could clear my mental cache as easily as I clear the cache on my computer.

Mark \\.

[Tau Zero]

I wish I could clear my mental cache as easily as I clear the cache on my computer.As I tell the Engineering guys at the TV station, "Don't force it. Get a bigger hammer." :eek: ;) :D


Cheers,

[Mark II]

As I tell the Engineering guys at the TV station, "Don't force it. Get a bigger hammer." :eek: ;) :D


Cheers,
I'll need it!!! :chuckle:

Either that, or some industrial-strength mental floss... (I might be moving to Montana, soon...)

Mark \\.

[Tau Zero]

(I might be moving to Montana, soon...)Hey, I live right next door! :rolleyes: ;) :D


Cheers,

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

I'll need it!!! :chuckle:

Either that, or some industrial-strength mental floss... (I might be moving to Montana, soon...)

Mark \\.

Yippee-Ki-Yo-Ki-Yay :rolleyes: :D

[jflis]

Jim, you *have* to tell us... where the 4 other forums are that you mentioned!!! (since I clearly already know about YORF and TRF)
:eek: ;)

Let's see...


Newtons 3rd
rocketry planet
ROL
rmr


:)