Limits ... on altitude

[ezgb59a]

This might be a dumb question but are there any altitude limits on rockets?

I know NE of here they will be launching those rockets that go up thousands of feet ... I've been told over 20,000 feet (don't know if that is true or not but would be fun to watch).

So what is the ceiling limit before you have to get permission to launch? I'm assuming these rocket kits from Estes and similar companies are not able to approach the ceiling.

Are there any other laws or regulations one ought to be where of?

Thanks
ez

[Bob Kaplow]

Strange as it seems, there is NO altitude limit. The limits are on the rocket weight and propellant weight.

The traditional model rocket is limited to 453g (1 pound) liftoff and 113g (4oz) propellant. Large Model Rockets (LMR - needs FAA notification, but not permission) can go up to 1500g/125g.

Once you get above that, you need an FAA waiver (permission). That permission will specify an altitude limit, but it's based on airspace restrictions more than anything else.

Bizare example: A year or two after we flew NARAM-33 and the first NAR HPR launch ever, we requested a 1700' (yes, that low) waiver for the site that was UNDER O'Hare's controlled airspace. ORD was willing to let us operate there, but DPA, a municipal airport just over 5 miles away was not. Because of them we didn't get a waiver. But under the MR limits we could have flown a 113g APCP H motor in a minimum diameter rocket to an estimated 8000' altitude without even having to let them know what we were up to. In fact, it's not hard at all to exceed 1700' with a stock Estes model and motor.

One of my favorite lines: "It's the government. It's not supposed to make sense."

[Mark II]

Yes, there are actually some limits, but they are at such extremes that almost none of us will ever encounter them. I believe that somewhere in the FAR (Federal Aviation Regulations for the United States) it states that U. S. citizens can make a suborbital launch (and technically-speaking, that is what we are all doing) up to 92 km without needing to obtain a professional launch license from NASA. Of course, to get anywhere close to that limit, there is a lot of documentation that you will need to send to a lot of jurisdictions, all for the purpose of insuring that you can build the rocket (esp. the motor), launch it and make the flight safely without endangering the general public or the national interest. But for all but a handful (literally) of non-professional rocket fliers in the U.S., these are situations that we would never be involved in.

Mark \\.

[Zeus-cat]

Im my job I deal with the FAA and most of their regulations make a lot of sense. This one does not in my opinion. I have a feeling it was not written by the FAA or at least not by a working level FAA person.

My two cents is that the requirement for a waiver should be based on altitude, weight and launch location. If I launch a 20 ounce rocket that will only go 500 feet then I shouldn't need a waiver (assuming I am not near an airport or any place aircraft fly low to the ground). If I launch a 12 ounce rocket that can go to 5,000 feet then I should probably have a waiver. I just made up the numbers, but you get the idea.

Zeus-cat

[tbzep]

I've been told over 20,000 feet (don't know if that is true or not but would be fun to watch).

The first few thousand feet would be fun, but after that it's just a spec with a smoky trail. A large heavy rocket launched to 5-7k ft is a lot more fun to watch, IMHO, because you can still recognize the rocket at apogee.

[barone]

Enlighten me. I thought you needed the waiver if the rocket was over one pound and you were expecting to reach an altitude that was considered controlled airspace which I thought was normally something like 1500 feet and within 5 miles of an ariport. I re-iterate the word normally. Now, I understand there are some parts of the country where controlled airspace is significantly higher........Any legislative gurus?

[Doug Sams]

Enlighten me. I thought you needed the waiver if the rocket was over one pound... You need a waiver if the rocket is over 3.3 pounds OR has over 125g of propellant. You need to file FAA notification if the rocket is over 1 pound or has over 113g of propellant.

Doug

.

[Mark II]

Im my job I deal with the FAA and most of their regulations make a lot of sense. This one does not in my opinion. I have a feeling it was not written by the FAA or at least not by a working level FAA person.

My two cents is that the requirement for a waiver should be based on altitude, weight and launch location. If I launch a 20 ounce rocket that will only go 500 feet then I shouldn't need a waiver (assuming I am not near an airport or any place aircraft fly low to the ground). If I launch a 12 ounce rocket that can go to 5,000 feet then I should probably have a waiver. I just made up the numbers, but you get the idea.

Zeus-cat
I think that it is pretty safe to say that there are quite a lot of hoops you would have to jump through in order to make a suborbital rocket launch that achieves any really serious altitude. It's just that not all of these hoops come from the FAA. IOW, the FAA is not the only agency that would have jurisdiction and regulations that would need to be met. I couldn't even begin to enumerate these overlapping jurisdictions and regs., but I'm pretty certain that they come into play not simply because the rocket will be going above a certain altitude. To use your example, what is so special about a 5000 foot launch that it should require a waiver? Why would a small lightweight rocket (12 oz. in your example) launched to that altitude be of any concern to the FAA? A small, unmanned rocket being defined as one that launches vertically, quickly climbs to apogee, and then quickly and directly returns to the ground while utilizing some sort of recovery device to slow its descent to well below the terminal velocity of free fall.

If you argue that the issue wouldn't be with a 12 oz. rocket going to 5000 ft, but with a 60 oz. rocket going to that same altitude, then you are introducing mass into the equation, and you are no longer talking about the simple issue of altitude. If you argue that the issue would be the possible interference of any sized rocket with other users of controlled airspace, well fine, the person making the launch might need to file a flight plan, like any other civilian flier, but that does not require a waiver (i. e., a suspension) of FAA regulations. (But I doubt that the person would actually ever be required to file a flight plan for such a launch.) Since I don't want to keep erecting straw men representing my guesses about issues that some might think the FAA would have with the altitude of small, unmanned rocket launches, let me just ask: specifically why do you think the FAA should be more stringently regulating high altitude flights of small unmanned rockets?

Mark \\.