Estes E9. Why?

[STRMan]

Does anybody know why Estes made an E9 instead of an E11 or E12? With an already functioning D11 and D12, it seems that keeping the same nozzle as one of the D's would have made basically a longer burning D. The reduced thrust of the E causes some problems in certain heavier models. Then we might also have an E booster as well.

Any thoughts?

[Initiator001]

In the mid-1990s, Estes did have a 24mm E15 (Actually, it was an E11-E12).

The first batch of these motors worked well but, after that, the failure rate climbed to a much higher percentage. I remember watching a LOC Viper III launch with three of these Estes E15s and have two of them cato.

Hobby shops were instructed to 'destroy' (Water soak) all inventory of this last run of Estes E15s (I worked in a hobby shop at the time and the warehouse called me to ask how to water soak the motors. I tried to just have them give me the moters but they told me 'no').

The Estes E9 motor runs at a lower casing pressure which requires it to contain more black powder to bring the performance up.

Bob

[STRMan]

I got it. If they wanted to make a higher impulse BP motor, they would probably have to make a thicker walled motor casing. The lower impulse of the E9 is necessary to work with the 24mm motor casings they use now.

[shockwaveriderz]

don't forget that Quest will be bringing its BP DEF engines to market in Spring of 2009. Hopefully the Global Economic Meltdown will not delay these engines getting to the marketplace as scheduled. The EF is 28mm not 24m, but there is to be an E12 and F12, and the E is near 100% E, so just hold on a little bit longer.

terry dean

[STRMan]

don't forget that Quest will be bringing its BP DEF engines to market in Spring of 2009. Hopefully the Global Economic Meltdown will not delay these engines getting to the marketplace as scheduled. The EF is 28mm not 24m, but there is to be an E12 and F12, and the E is near 100% E, so just hold on a little bit longer.

terry dean

I can't wait for these new engines. Add that to the reintroduction of the Estes A8-0, and this should be a fun year to fly rockets!

[JoeLaunchman]

As I recall, the original Estes E motors had a burnthrough problem, I saw one CATO and we later realized the casing had failed.

Here is the info regarding the upcoming Quest motors: D8, E12 & F12:

http://www.rocketryplanet.com/content/view/2522/28/

[JSP]

I love the E9, but you have to cluster them in anything medium size or bigger.
I had an Estes Maxi Honest John that got destroyed by an E15 cato. I still have the parts, and will one day rebuild....

[Royatl]

don't forget that Quest will be bringing its BP DEF engines to market in Spring of 2009. Hopefully the Global Economic Meltdown will not delay these engines getting to the marketplace as scheduled. The EF is 28mm not 24m, but there is to be an E12 and F12, and the E is near 100% E, so just hold on a little bit longer.

terry dean

Since he supposedly has already had them in hand (or in shipping container) since before NARAM, I would suspect he wants to get them on the market as soon as he can get through the bureaucracy.

[Chas Russell]

I love the E9, but you have to cluster them in anything medium size or bigger.
I had an Estes Maxi Honest John that got destroyed by an E15 cato. I still have the parts, and will one day rebuild....

Stuart,

I have a couple of the re-issued Estes Kits and parts from my own prang at the Bonneville salt flats in Utah back when I workeed for Matt Steele at North Coast. Durn that salt is hard...BTW, it was an experimental NCR E20 that did the HJ in. Up was spectacular...down was gravity.

Anywho, I can help you out if I have an idea what you need.

Chas

[jflis]

I love the E9, but you have to cluster them in anything medium size or bigger.
I had an Estes Maxi Honest John that got destroyed by an E15 cato. I still have the parts, and will one day rebuild....


Oh! Clustered E9's are a LOT of fun :) I love them in the Richter Recker. The long burn is really nice. I have flown the E15 before and actually prefer the E9. Only real problem is that, with the low overall thrust they couldn't do an effective booster...

[JSP]

Stuart,

I have a couple of the re-issued Estes Kits and parts from my own prang at the Bonneville salt flats in Utah back when I workeed for Matt Steele at North Coast. Durn that salt is hard...BTW, it was an experimental NCR E20 that did the HJ in. Up was spectacular...down was gravity.

Anywho, I can help you out if I have an idea what you need.

Chas
Why, thankee! :)
Of course, it might be a while before I get around to it...it's been 15 years or so as it is.... :chuckle:

[JSP]

Oh! Clustered E9's are a LOT of fun :) I love them in the Richter Recker. The long burn is really nice. I have flown the E15 before and actually prefer the E9. Only real problem is that, with the low overall thrust they couldn't do an effective booster...
Yep! I totally agree with the long burn thing. The Bad Kitty (an LOC Viper III with "Get Fuzzy" Decals) has flown about five times...all on E9's!

[Mark II]

Yep! I totally agree with the long burn thing. The Bad Kitty (an LOC Viper III with "Get Fuzzy" Decals) has flown about five times...all on E9's!
Estes did actually offer an E9-0 motor at first, though, but only very briefly, I think. Did anyone ever try it in a booster stage? (As opposed to using it in just saucer-style rockets? :rolleyes: )

Mark \\.

[dwmzmm]

My Maxi-AlphaX4 used two D12-7's and two E9-6's on both flights flown; model was lost on
second flight (at McGregor, TX several years back :( :mad: ). Liftoff photo by Tim Sapp of
DARS.

[Luv2launch]

Yep! I totally agree with the long burn thing. The Bad Kitty (an LOC Viper III with "Get Fuzzy" Decals) has flown about five times...all on E9's!

Hey where did you get the Get Fuzzy stickers?Were they homemade?Would love to get some of those thats my almost all time fav comic strip behind Calvin and Hobbes.

Andy

[JSP]

Hey where did you get the Get Fuzzy stickers?Were they homemade?Would love to get some of those thats my almost all time fav comic strip behind Calvin and Hobbes.

Andy

They're home-brew. I just took the art from the web site and printed it on Testors decal paper. The font is just comic sans from Windows.

I have another rocket, an LOC NORAD called the "Duck and Cover" based on Pearls Before Swine. I emailed the pics to Pastis (the guy who does the comic) and he said he loved it. I was a little nervous because he's an ex-lawyer :)

[Shreadvector]

They made some and had them certified, but they never "offered" them. They were never put on sale. They probably realized that average American consumers would build and fly heavy rockets that would crash badly with an E9 booster.



Estes did actually offer an E9-0 motor at first, though, but only very briefly, I think. Did anyone ever try it in a booster stage? (As opposed to using it in just saucer-style rockets? :rolleyes: )

Mark \\.

[rokitflite]

They made some and had them certified, but they never "offered" them. They were never put on sale. They probably realized that average American consumers would build and fly heavy rockets that would crash badly with an E9 booster.


And then have the added fun of the second stage igniting :D :D :D

[aeromoe]

Yes, they are a lot of fun as long as they don't CATO due to heat/cold cycling., which I suspect was the cause of this CATO. Our vendor keeps the motors in a trailer and between Vegas and Phoenix, the repeated heat/chill/heat/chill cycles all of his BP motors have experienced... after this I will NOT buy BP from this vendor nor do I recommend it to anybody else on site.

My upscale BT-80 "Scrambler" was scrambled pretty bad when two of three E9s CATO'd at ignition last February. I'm actually glad it didn't leave the pad since only two of the motors ignited...but it was pretty spectacular...glad I was able to catch the amazing sequence of photos that I did.

[Royatl]

Yes, they are a lot of fun as long as they don't CATO due to heat/cold cycling., which I suspect was the cause of this CATO.

My upscale BT-80 "Scrambler" was scrambled pretty bad when two of three E9s CATO'd at ignition last February. I'm actually glad it didn't leave the pad since only two of the motors ignited...but it was pretty spectacular...glad I was able to catch the amazing sequence of photos that I did.


Ok, that first one takes the prize for

BEST --- CATO --- PHOTO --- EVER!


Has anyone heard if that PicoSat from the last Shuttle mission fired its D12 motors yet? Talk about thermal cycling!

[Ltvscout]

Ok, that first one takes the prize for

BEST --- CATO --- PHOTO --- EVER!
Yes, those are quite the awesome shots!

[aeromoe]

Thanks guys...

You should see the original orientation of the parachute photo...I'm guess I'm lucky I caught it. I've included the full-frame photo below.

[GIJoe]

Thanks guys...

You should see the original orientation of the parachute photo...I'm guess I'm lucky I caught it. I've included the full-frame photo below.

The second photo sure looks like one of those Bad Guy Scenes from the Bat-Man TV Shows. I wasn't aware Arizona was listing so much. Fortunately I have only had one serious CATO. That is the last time I trade E9's for different delays.

Joe

[Mark II]

Thanks guys...

You should see the original orientation of the parachute photo...I'm guess I'm lucky I caught it. I've included the full-frame photo below.
Are those stills from a video? Or did you have your camera in burst mode? I often try to take liftoff photos, even though I'm usually the only one there and have to hold the launch controller, check the sky, give the countdown and then simultaneously press and hold the safety interlock and the launch button. I have lots of pictures of smoke as a result. :chuckle:

The only time I ever tried to get a launch photo at a club launch was when I launched a rocket on a G reload for the first (and so far, only) time. The loud bang! from the ignition of the pyrodex pellet in the Pro-38 1 grain reload startled me and I missed the shot! :( :o

Mark \\.

[aeromoe]

I shoot with a digital SLR (Canon 30D) which has a 30-shot buffer and approx 5 frame per second fast mode. I up the ASA to 400 or 500 and shoot at 1/4000 (1/3200 sometimes) for the best chance at catching a liftoff.

I was startled by the CATO and that's why the camera is oriented as shown in that photo during the latter part of the sequence.

Believe me, I get a lot of smoke too but I normally ask someone to push the button for me. Most smaller mod-rocs are the toughest because they simply jump off the pad so quickly.
However, I've recently been experimenting with launching and photographing at the same time and I've become pretty good at it. I usually only do that when there isn't someone around who is willing to push the button.

If you want to see some other launch photos you can check out one of my websites at:

http://www.geocities.com/~aeromoe/rocketpix.html

I have lots more to add but there are some cool shots there at the moment.

Moe

[Jeff Walther]

Ok, that first one takes the prize for

BEST --- CATO --- PHOTO --- EVER!

Wow! Yes, fantastic photo. Thank you for posting it.

[Mikus]

Awesome photography Moe. That is quite spectacular.

[Peartree]

So how did it go with the five stager?

[aeromoe]

I have no idea how high it went though a more appropriate question would be how far west did it travel. That thing weathercocked pretty good and was probably running as much as it was rising. Only piece I got back was part of the 1st stage booster assembly. That was actually cannibalized from a Comanche-3 kit and I launched it on 3 July 1989 (easy to remember because my daughter was born exactly one year later)

[Maniac BAR]

Wow! Yes, fantastic photo. Thank you for posting it.

Actually Moe is being quite modest. I am a good friend of his and have done a fair share of launching his rockets for him. He is also the one who has taken the most and the best shots of my rockets. Many of them can be seen over on EMRR.

The new EMRR 2009 calander has the cato sequence in it. Nick asked Moe and myself to use his shots in its production. The Spuds n Nuts and the Cowabunga rockets are mine. The shots were both taken by Moe.

Man, he makes my stuff look good!! :)

At the rate that he takes pictures at our launches, I will need a new 500G hard drive soon! :D

[JAL3]

So how did it go with the five stager?

5 stages?

What am I missing?

[Peartree]

5 stages?

What am I missing?

See the post by Aeromoe with the link to his photo album.

Then see

"1989 (Phase IV)"

and scroll down to the photo with the label

"5 stager launched on 3 July 1989"


I'm just wondering if that thing has come down yet?

5 stager (http://www.geocities.com/~aeromoe/5stager.jpg)

[tbzep]

I'm just wondering if that thing has come down yet?

5 stager (http://www.geocities.com/~aeromoe/5stager.jpg)

He didn't bother with painting it. Good decision. :p

[JAL3]

See the post by Aeromoe with the link to his photo album.

Then see

"1989 (Phase IV)"

and scroll down to the photo with the label

"5 stager launched on 3 July 1989"


I'm just wondering if that thing has come down yet?

5 stager (http://www.geocities.com/~aeromoe/5stager.jpg)


That's insane!

I Like it.

[aeromoe]

Yes guys, it was insane. I'm just glad the thing stayed flying in an upward direction, even if it did severly weathercock. D12-D12-C6-C6-C6-7 were the motors. I do have VHS of the launch but of course I was trying to keep the open eye on the rocket before launch while using the eyepiece to keep the rocket in frame. At launch, I moved the camera slightly away and didn't reaquire the "target" until it staged the 2nd or 3rd time. Still cool to watch and hear the staging though. I've not tried anything like that since...except my chad 3-stage 1/100 Saturn V (unpainted also...what's up with that?) that flew absolutely perfectly several times on 3 D12s. Totally un-prototypical but fun to fly none-the-less.

IF I could just convert these VHS to digital somehow I'd gladly post 'em. I do have the ability to archive my VHS onto DVD with my DVD-R but the resulting file types are seemingly unreadable by anything that would allow me to edit the digital video for content and length. Any ideas anyone?

In the photo below, you might be able to tell that the only stock fins from the cannibalized Comanche-3 kit are the 3rd stage fins. And as I said earlier, the only thing I got back was the first stage...minus a fin or two. Hard to believe the 20th anniversary of that flight is coming up this July.

[aeromoe]

Man, he makes my stuff look good!! :)




Thanks Geoffrey but I only take the photos, man, you do the painting and finishing of your stuff. If I made the time to do that kinda finishing I'd be flying good looking rockets too!

[luke strawwalker]

IF I could just convert these VHS to digital somehow I'd gladly post 'em. I do have the ability to archive my VHS onto DVD with my DVD-R but the resulting file types are seemingly unreadable by anything that would allow me to edit the digital video for content and length. Any ideas anyone?



That's a good question and deserves it's own thread... I too would like to know more about this as I have some pretty cool stuff on VHS from the old days... even when we got a Super-8 camcorder I dubbed everything over to VHS.

I bought a DVD recorder from Wal Mart and have recorded most all my VHS rocket stuff onto DVD. I used to have a Toshiba digital VCR that I bought as a closeout special fairly cheap; it was REALLY cool because it could do perfectly clear freeze-frame and slo-mo without any picture 'noise" or distortion, unlike regular VCR's. It could even freeze the picture on the TV broadcasts in realtime by hitting a button on the remote. Using that and the 'edit' functions on my old JCPenney VHS camcorder I redubbed to VHS in perfect slo-mo at various speeds and used the 'edit' feature to redub again adding a new soundtrack to the video. Using the counters as meters and timing the soundtrack to the video, I managed to put some actual NASA countdowns from a space documentary I have on tape called "Man's Greatest Adventure" narrarated by none other than Orson Welles, and actually did a fair job on most of them despite the primitive nature of the equipment. I had done some fairly neat setups with the camera looking nearly straight up at the rocket taking off by setting the launch pad up on milk crate, and some with the tripod extended all the way looking almost straight down at the rocket as it lifted off, and some other 'pad shots' of Astrocams and some home-builts lifting off, some staging shots in super-slo-mo, and some regular hand held video of various rockets in flight. I even used some Star Trek TNG soundtracks for some of it because there were only a few soundtracks in the "Man's Greatest Adventure" documentary that would work, and I used them several times each.

If the videos could be uploaded into the computer with an editing program applied to it, I could REALLY do some cool videos! This is something I'd like to do but I'm learning from square one, so if anyone has any advice for a newbie, I'd appreciate it! OL JR :)

[aeromoe]

Thanks for your input, Luke.

Several years ago for my previous desktop, I did have for a short while a stand-alone piece of hardware (about a C-note) that you patched between the VCR and video card. I grabbed a few short segments (couple minutes each) of train videos I'd shot (trains - another hobby) and while I liked the hardware, I decided to return it and go for the standalone DVD-R. I wore that DVD-R out (hard drive error on the unit - another story) and decided to replace the whole unit. I'm sure the software is out there to grab the data off of the resulting burned-DVDs but I haven't done enough research to find the correct software. I'm pretty sure I could probably just find another piece of hardware you patch between the VCR and video card and go that route but I don't want to fork out the money for it right now.

[Peartree]

Many good video cards will allow analog input into your computer that can be stored and edited on a sufficiently robust computer. Please note that this will require a computer that is fairly fast and has LOTS of memory (if you want to edit video). These can be obtained online at places like Newegg.com or at Staples, BestBuy, etc.

[tbzep]

I have an old Leadtek TV tuner PCI card that is separate from the regular video card, but you can buy combination cards like the ATI All-in-Wonder if you are wanting to upgrade the video card anyway. They will take any analog signal, whether it's cable, tv antenna, VHS, or even DVD players with analog output. These cards normally come with average editing software. My Leadtek card was less than $50 years ago. Without looking it up, I bet a similar card would be about $25-$35 now. I sure there are much better software choices today, but back when I bought my card, most were being shipped with Ulead and Pinnacle editing software.

I was able to edit with 512mb of memory on WinXP. I haven't done anything yet with Vista as I've started using Linux, but I'd venture that it would need 1 gig at minimum. You also need a lot of free hard drive space, the longer the video, the more space needed. If you are going to host it on your own web pages, Windows Media format is pretty compact. If you are going to post to Youtube, it will be converted to FLV anyway, so you would probably want to use a higher resolution format. I've never uploaded to Youtube, so I don't know what formats they accept.

Wow. I've wasted my lunch break spewing many words with very little info. :rolleyes:

[luke strawwalker]

Thanks for your input, Luke.

Several years ago for my previous desktop, I did have for a short while a stand-alone piece of hardware (about a C-note) that you patched between the VCR and video card. I grabbed a few short segments (couple minutes each) of train videos I'd shot (trains - another hobby) and while I liked the hardware, I decided to return it and go for the standalone DVD-R. I wore that DVD-R out (hard drive error on the unit - another story) and decided to replace the whole unit. I'm sure the software is out there to grab the data off of the resulting burned-DVDs but I haven't done enough research to find the correct software. I'm pretty sure I could probably just find another piece of hardware you patch between the VCR and video card and go that route but I don't want to fork out the money for it right now.

Well, I've JUST finally bought a digital camera, so I have a LOT to learn, and haven't even tried putting DVD stuff into the computer and playing with it.

I know I'm starting at square one, so what's a good way to learn?? Any good books or websites I can read up on this stuff and get up to speed?? I love watching youtube but have never downloaded anything to there, wouldn't even know how at the moment.

I'm SUCH a noob... OL JR :)

[aeromoe]

Wow. I've wasted my lunch break spewing many words with very little info. :rolleyes:

Appreciate your sacrifice Zep...and your imputs peartree and luke

As far as dig cameras go, luke, what did you get? Point and shoot or Single Lens Reflex with interchangeable lenses?

[luke strawwalker]

Appreciate your sacrifice Zep...and your imputs peartree and luke

As far as dig cameras go, luke, what did you get? Point and shoot or Single Lens Reflex with interchangeable lenses?

I got a Fujifilm Finepix S2000 HD. I liked the 13.5 frames/sec burst mode and the 33 pic burst cache, and the 15x optical zoom lens. And the price was about all I could afford at just over $200. I played with it and it seems a MUCH better camera than the Finepix S1000 that I had been considering. It's one of those 'prosumer' DSLR-like cams; about the size of a small DSLR but with the fixed telephoto zoom lens. Which that's ok with me, because I really didn't want to have to buy more glass and I couldn't afford a Pentax DSLR that would work with the glass I have, and having to change lenses risks dust on the sensor and is kind of a pain when shooting pics. Yes I know, better quality, but for what I'm doing this is a good way to start.

Now if I had a spare grand laying around I'd have gotten a Casio EX-F1 that can shoot up to 1000 frames/second-- but that's some serious coin! They have a discounted model that can do almost as good for $500, and I read recently that they've JUST come out with a point-n-shoot that can do some high-speed photography but the lens, like most all point-n-shoots, is kinda crappy... and the $350 price is still over my budget... :)

We'll see how it works... :) OL JR :)

[Bill]

IF I could just convert these VHS to digital somehow I'd gladly post 'em. I do have the ability to archive my VHS onto DVD with my DVD-R but the resulting file types are seemingly unreadable by anything that would allow me to edit the digital video for content and length. Any ideas anyone?



May I suggest dubbing from VHS to a digital camcorder first, then importing the video to your computer via Firewire? I used to do a lot of launch video and going from Digital-8 into my computer worked very well.


Bill

[tbzep]

May I suggest dubbing from VHS to a digital camcorder first, then importing the video to your computer via Firewire? I used to do a lot of launch video and going from Digital-8 into my computer worked very well.


Bill

Good suggestion. A lot of people have chosen their new digital camcorders based on that very ability. It would be a simple solution for those that don't like having to deal with editing software too, as they normally have editing functions built in. However, if you don't already have a digital camcorder, a cheap TV tuner card would be much less expensive.

[luke strawwalker]

Good suggestion. A lot of people have chosen their new digital camcorders based on that very ability. It would be a simple solution for those that don't like having to deal with editing software too, as they normally have editing functions built in. However, if you don't already have a digital camcorder, a cheap TV tuner card would be much less expensive.

What kind of digital camcorder??? Sorry noob questions here I know...

For me camcorder progress peaked at VHS-C and 8mm... Those are the most advanced camcorders I (well, the family) own. I've looked at newer models but between the different formats available now, from mini-DV digital tape to DVD format to flash drive to hard drive machines, I'm swamped now... don't know where to start and what to do.

Plus hooking things up to my computer is not one of my strong suits... I hope I can get the digital camera to work. At least I've had a LITTLE prior experience with that. Usually me and computers don't mix too well...

So, lemme ask, for those in the know... If I dub my VHS to a DVD, will it or will it not work on the computer?? If so why or why not, or what do you do if the answer is 'it depends'?? My DVD recorder says it can do just about any format, DVD+R, -R, +RW, -RW, even CD-R and CD+R. SO what's the story from the electronically literate... :D OL JR :)

[tbzep]

What kind of digital camcorder??? Sorry noob questions here I know...

For me camcorder progress peaked at VHS-C and 8mm... Those are the most advanced camcorders I (well, the family) own. I've looked at newer models but between the different formats available now, from mini-DV digital tape to DVD format to flash drive to hard drive machines, I'm swamped now... don't know where to start and what to do.

Plus hooking things up to my computer is not one of my strong suits... I hope I can get the digital camera to work. At least I've had a LITTLE prior experience with that. Usually me and computers don't mix too well...

So, lemme ask, for those in the know... If I dub my VHS to a DVD, will it or will it not work on the computer?? If so why or why not, or what do you do if the answer is 'it depends'?? My DVD recorder says it can do just about any format, DVD+R, -R, +RW, -RW, even CD-R and CD+R. SO what's the story from the electronically literate... :D OL JR :)

I really can't help you with a specific camcorder. About 6 months ago my wife had me research the best digital camcorder within a given price for her to shoot my daughter's gymnastics meets. I found what I thought was best, gave it to her, and told her to buy it if she wanted it. She said she didn't want one like that, so I told her I was done with it, to get what she wanted. (She never did get anything.)

While I do remember reading about analog inputs and video editing, I don't recall which models had the features, even though I wanted analog inputs to do my Cineroc camera downlinks. I do know that it is becoming harder and harder to find them with analog inputs. Some spec sheets will have an input/output category and have RCA jacks listed underneath. When I'd dig around the net I'd eventually find that most of them were analog OUTputs, and they had no analog inputs. Your selection is becoming more limited each month as old models are replaced by newer ones.

The one thing you absolutely need for recording VHS to the camcorder is analog inputs. The recording formats are a compromise, each having benefits over the other, something I could spend a few pages on with lots of typos and run-on sentences, so you are better off reading something already written on the net.

As for dubbing to DVD from VHS, maybe your simplest and second least expensive option after a cheap TV card is to just purchase a combination VCR and DVD recorder. I believe they are set up for direct dubbing with the push of a few buttons, very similar to dubbing tape. The price has dropped well below $200. My first and only search hit on a Toshiba for $189 at Best Buy. I'm sure you could hunt down a name brand somewhere on sale for a little better price.

[luke strawwalker]

I really can't help you with a specific camcorder. About 6 months ago my wife had me research the best digital camcorder within a given price for her to shoot my daughter's gymnastics meets. I found what I thought was best, gave it to her, and told her to buy it if she wanted it. She said she didn't want one like that, so I told her I was done with it, to get what she wanted. (She never did get anything.)

While I do remember reading about analog inputs and video editing, I don't recall which models had the features, even though I wanted analog inputs to do my Cineroc camera downlinks. I do know that it is becoming harder and harder to find them with analog inputs. Some spec sheets will have an input/output category and have RCA jacks listed underneath. When I'd dig around the net I'd eventually find that most of them were analog OUTputs, and they had no analog inputs. Your selection is becoming more limited each month as old models are replaced by newer ones.

The one thing you absolutely need for recording VHS to the camcorder is analog inputs. The recording formats are a compromise, each having benefits over the other, something I could spend a few pages on with lots of typos and run-on sentences, so you are better off reading something already written on the net.

As for dubbing to DVD from VHS, maybe your simplest and second least expensive option after a cheap TV card is to just purchase a combination VCR and DVD recorder. I believe they are set up for direct dubbing with the push of a few buttons, very similar to dubbing tape. The price has dropped well below $200. My first and only search hit on a Toshiba for $189 at Best Buy. I'm sure you could hunt down a name brand somewhere on sale for a little better price.

Thanks TB... something I'm going to have to read up on... I like this sort of thing but I've gotten 'behind the curve' over the last ten years or so... I don't impulse buy, I research before I buy, and the thing is, there are SO many choices on stuff now, different capabilities and different formats it's almost overwhelming... it's taken me about three months to finally decide on what digital camera I wanted based on features and cost!

I'm thinking pretty hard about a cheapy camcorder, because I have a boostervision and want some kind of recording ability for it without having to drag a VCR and TV to the field, and either extension cords or an inverter for it. I have a small inverter for the pickup, but I'm not sure it could handle a TV or VCR, and I wonder about powering a VCR or TV off an inverter anyway, because of possible interference or power variations affecting the recording... I've heard of guys using little TV/VCR combos for boostervision flights, but I haven't seen any little stuff like that in the walmart for a long time... everything is flatscreens now, and BIG is IN.... I don't know where you could go to get a 13 inch or smaller TV now...

I'm dubbing straight from VHS VCR to DVD on my Magnavox DVD recorder I got at WM. It does a good job. I bought a new VCR a couple years ago, but I don't hardly use it anymore...
Man where have the years gone?? I was 15 when I bought our family's first VCR, way back in 1986... paid just over $300 for it at SEARS because it was an older 'top loader' model that was being closed out in favor of the new-fangled 'front loaders'. VHS had already made Beta all but obsolete, but the video store still had a small Beta section... Lord, remember when every little town had a mom-n-pop video rental store?? We had a real nice couple running one in the next town west of us (we live almost halfway between the two towns) Back then it was rent or nothing-- nobody actually SOLD videotapes, nobody could afford movies on tape back then... I bought the thing and then my folks liked it SO much that they would come over to my Grandma's house (I lived with her) and keep us up to 3 am on school nites watching videos :rolleyes: Drove me nuts! But they wouldn't spring to buy their own! That was also back in the days before we had a Blockbuster video or Hollywood or any of the other big rental chains anywhere around here... it was mom-n-pop or nothing!
By the late 80's early 90's we had a Blockbuster and a few years later a Hollywood video, and then shortly thereafter tape prices came down enough that stores started selling movies, and rental sales started a slow decline...

Oh man am I that old?? (grins) I know one thing.. kids don't know how lucky they are not to have had to live through the WATERGATE HEARINGS in the age of 'three channels' and before the invention of VCR's (well availability anyway)... :rolleyes: OL JR :)