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View Full Version : Fill 'N Finish - The Word From Elmer's


Gus
01-06-2009, 10:29 AM
The subject of what has replaced Fill 'N Finish came up in another thread so I decided to contact Elmer's directly. One of their customer service people put me in touch with a very nice Dr. Patel who is one of Elmer's chemical engineers.

Dr. Patel explained that Fill 'N Finish was replaced because of slow sales. It was replaced with a similar, but more durable product, Stainable Wood Filler (product numbers E889, E890, E891, E892).

Instead of the glass (softer) microspheres in Fill 'N Finish the new product uses ceramic (harder) microspheres. Dr. Patel explained that the new product should be minimally harder to sand but more durable than the old product.

Similarly, the resins used to bind the microspheres have been changed slightly, again to a more durable but more stainable polymer.

Dr. Patel felt we might notice the new product requiring a bit more sanding but that it would adhere better and hold stain and paint better.

Dr. Patel was gratified to know that there were Elmer's customers interested enough in their products to actually make the effort to contact him. A very nice gentleman who seemed genuinely pleased there are users like us who actually care about what he does.

micromeister
01-06-2009, 11:14 AM
Gus:
Good info!
do the different product numbers indicate different size containers or slightly different product content?
funny I was looking the this very product last weekend at Lowes and wondering if it was a replacement as I didn't see and Fill n finish anywhere;)

foose4string
01-06-2009, 11:20 AM
Thanks for making the effort Gus. I was just thinking about that thread this morning as a matter of fact, realizing it was almost time to open my last tub of FNF. And what would happen to that info if YORF ever went down? :eek: Speaking to the chemist at Elmer's goes above and beyond what I would call good customer service...I would call it excellence.

I also had a great experience with Elmer's fairly recently. I have been using the soft grip Xacto knives(an Elmer's co.) for most of my rocket building. The plastic grip broke on the first one I bought. Thinking it was operator error or a fluke, I purchased another. This time, I made certain I didn't over tighten or apply undue pressure to the knife. Same thing happened again, another cracked grip. I emailed Elmer's asking if replacement grips were available, and if so, would be willing to purchase a few of them. I explained that I am a rocket modeler and how I use them for thin balsa and styrene, cardstock, etc. A customer rep. wrote back saying the grips were not available separately and if I sent the faulty knives back she would replace them. I did as requested, and about two weeks later a whole master carton(12 count) of Xacto Gripsters showed up in my mailbox. I won't have to buy a hobby knife for quite some time. Now that's customer service!

BTW, I'm only on the first replacement knife after about six months and the grip is holding up fine. The ones that were cracking were blue grips. The new ones that were sent have red grips. Could be, the blue ones had a bad run, or the dye effected the durability. I know dyes can do strange things.

Gus
01-06-2009, 01:23 PM
Gus:
Good info!
do the different product numbers indicate different size containers or slightly different product content?
Product numbers are for the different size containers, 4, 8, 16, and 32 oz.

sandman
01-06-2009, 01:35 PM
Just to muddy the water a bit more...this is what I use.

The tubes seem to dispence it very easily.

The "natural" is a perfect color match to raw balsa.

Product number E868 for the natural

Product number E855 for the white.

It seems to be exactly the same as fill 'n finish.

I think it is Fill 'n Finish just yet another container and color.

johnnwwa
01-06-2009, 01:41 PM
Just to muddy the water a bit more...this is what I use.

The tubes seem to dispence it very easily.

The "natural" is a perfect color match to raw balsa.

Product number E868 for the natural

Product number E855 for the white.

It seems to be exactly the same as fill 'n finish.

I think it is Fill 'n Finish just yet another container and color.

I have used the one on the left ( Natural E868 )in Gordon's photo with very good results. Worked great on the Upscale Starship Nova nose cone and as a result I used less sanding sealer :)

John

sandman
01-06-2009, 01:52 PM
I have used the one on the left ( Natural E868 )in Gordon's photo with very good results. Worked graet on the Upscale Starship Nova nose cone and as a result I used less sanding sealer :)

John

LOL...That's what I use on the Starship Nova cones I make! :chuckle:

See, I'm thinking it's the same as Fill n' Finish it's just the tubes are handier to deal with...for me anyway.

o1d_dude
01-06-2009, 01:58 PM
The one on the left has been in my wood working arsenal for some time even though I'm not terribly happy with the results.

It adheres well and sands quite easily but it doesn't take a stain worth mentioning. In other words, it remains the same color finished as it was in the tube. Careful choice of wood and filler can help some but your best bet is to use this under a painted rather than a clear finish.

From a model rocketry perspective, this is probably a non-issue given that we primer and paint pretty much all our work.

sandman
01-06-2009, 03:02 PM
Thanks for taking the time to contact Elmers. I can see why they made the change. While the softer version is better for us, it's really not that great when used on household woodworking projects where it just ends up being too soft. They probably never intended on it being used on balsa :)

Gee, I never thought to use it for woodworking other than balsa. :confused:

I use much better stuff for "real" wood. ;)

hcmbanjo
01-06-2009, 03:08 PM
I too called Elmer's a few months back. I was told they hadn't made the Fill N' Finish since 2007. The new formulations are better for outdoor applications.
I've been using the new, (blue and orange lid label) Carpenter's Wood Filler with good results. It's not the stainable variety, but most all my models are painted with an opaque, not transparent finish.
I haven't really noticed that big of a difference in sanding difficulty.

That's it from this end,

Hans "Chris" Michielssen

Check out the new website:
www.howtobuildmodelrockets.20m.com

SierraCharlie
01-07-2009, 05:33 PM
Many Thanks for looking into this Gus! And thanks to the forum for the tip on this. I 've been an old Aerogloss user since the 60's, but I have an afterschool rocket club with 29 kids, and needed something a little less ....volatile. This Elmer's stuff is great! sorry I didn't learn about it sooner. I thin it out with water to about Eggnog consistancy (to keep the Holiday theme alive) and one coat does the job of three Aerogloss coats. I've used it on several of my models, and on the Quest Astras that the club has built.
Now what am I going to do with all that Aerogloss?

Greg N
01-16-2009, 10:19 PM
Gee, I never thought to use it for woodworking other than balsa. :confused:

I use much better stuff for "real" wood. ;)

for real stuff you can just simply mix saw dust (from the project your working on) and glue to make your own "filler" works every time.

luke strawwalker
01-17-2009, 10:26 PM
Here's the new stuff... Product 891. I got this one at Big R in Indiana over Christmas...

Hope this helps! OL JR :)

Royatl
01-18-2009, 01:23 AM
Here's the new stuff... Product 891. I got this one at Big R in Indiana over Christmas...

Hope this helps! OL JR :)

That is actually fairly OLD stuff. Note the 2004 copyright. That should work pretty well.

The new stuff was shown a few weeks ago in another thread, with the new blue and orange graphics. STAINABLE is still prominently printed, but it is much different.

As Gus said, the microspheres are noticeably larger, or harder, or both, and it also contains "Real Wood Fibers" that muck it up pretty badly. Takes a substantial amount of water to work with it, and the fibers tend to bunch up and it goes on very lumpy. Having to use a lot of water means you have to be very careful about warping. I wouldn't use this stuff on 1/16" stock. I've tried and come out with wavy fins that didn't sand out very smooth.

I'm toying with the idea of using their regular filler, and putting my own microspheres into it. (but there's a Hobby Lobby here with a lot of little 4oz. tubs of the good stuff. a bit more expensive, but if that's the only thing I can point people to, that'll do)

tbzep
01-18-2009, 10:10 AM
I'm toying with the idea of using their regular filler, and putting my own microspheres into it. (but there's a Hobby Lobby here with a lot of little 4oz. tubs of the good stuff. a bit more expensive, but if that's the only thing I can point people to, that'll do)

The regular stuff sands just as easily as our old microsphere F-n-F. It's not significantly heavier because almost all of it is sanded off. I've been using it for quite a while now. It still smells like the old F-n-F, so I think it's the same product minus the microspheres.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y283/tbzep/Fill-n-Finish.jpg

foose4string
01-18-2009, 11:48 AM
The regular stuff sands just as easily as our old microsphere F-n-F. It's not significantly heavier because almost all of it is sanded off. I've been using it for quite a while now. It still smells like the old F-n-F, so I think it's the same product minus the microspheres.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y283/tbzep/Fill-n-Finish.jpg

I used that before I was able to get my hands on FNF. I didn't see a big difference either. Either one works for what we are trying to accomplish. Like Roy pointed out, the main thing no matter what you use is to make sure you don't thin it out too much.

luke strawwalker
01-18-2009, 03:51 PM
That is actually fairly OLD stuff. Note the 2004 copyright. That should work pretty well.

The new stuff was shown a few weeks ago in another thread, with the new blue and orange graphics. STAINABLE is still prominently printed, but it is much different.

As Gus said, the microspheres are noticeably larger, or harder, or both, and it also contains "Real Wood Fibers" that muck it up pretty badly. Takes a substantial amount of water to work with it, and the fibers tend to bunch up and it goes on very lumpy. Having to use a lot of water means you have to be very careful about warping. I wouldn't use this stuff on 1/16" stock. I've tried and come out with wavy fins that didn't sand out very smooth.

I'm toying with the idea of using their regular filler, and putting my own microspheres into it. (but there's a Hobby Lobby here with a lot of little 4oz. tubs of the good stuff. a bit more expensive, but if that's the only thing I can point people to, that'll do)

Oh, Ok... I've been looking for it for a good long while. The product number on the bottom is 891, so I figured it was the new stuff given the product numbers given by the OP. I figured that was it when I saw the reference to 'ceramic microspheres' on the label.

I've been using regular Elmer's sandable filler, but I only bought one of the tiny little tubs and it's about gone, so when I saw this stuff I ran with it.

Don't know much about the new packaging...

Yall have a good one! OL JR :)

pcotcher
02-23-2009, 11:15 AM
Thanks for the groundwork Gus - I've been chasing a mythical product all weekend. I've always used Sanding Sealer for my find (and BNCs) - but was intrigued to try the new stuff - and was searching for Carpenters FINISHING Wood Filler - I swear I've read about a finishing version of that product somewhere on line here. Yet all I find is either the Carpeneter's Wood Filler (as shown in this thread) or the Stainable version of the product.

Which one are y'all using? The regular or stainable product? Is there such a thing as a "finishing" version (presumably finer and easier to polish).

I finally broke down and purchased the small tube of the white wood filler - figuring that would be the easiest to paint over. Haven't tried it yet.

Thanks!

Paul

Gus
02-23-2009, 11:58 AM
Which one are y'all using? The regular or stainable product?
Stainable, that's the one with the microspheres to make it easier to sand.

ghrocketman
02-23-2009, 02:46 PM
Paul,
+1 to what Gus said about using the "stainable" product, but I prefer this stuff not for general finishing but for filling large imperfections only.
As you know I still finish the old fashioned way with dope.
I tried using the Elmers stuff and wound up with more than one set of warped fins...that was enough for me as I had never had that issue with AeroGloss.


With AeroGloss products, I have found the smoothest finish is obtained with 2-3 coats of AeroGloss Balsa Fillercoat with sanding after the second and third coat, followed by 2 coats of AeroGloss sanding sealer with sanding after each coat. One can skip the use of balsa fillercoat and just use sanding sealer for a smooth wood finish, but it will not hide all the grain.

Although Pactra AeroGloss products are pretty much long-gone, one can still get the Fillercoat and Sanding Sealer from Sig and Brodak. Brodak also offers an impressive array of colors of good old-fashioned butyrate dope in 4oz and 16oz cans that rivals the assortment ever offered by Pactra. Brodak does not make their own dope, it is actually re-packaged full-scale aircraft Randoph dope.
I still use new-old-stock AeroGloss because I have an old-stock supply that rivals the supply that Rider's Hobby of Flint had in 1982 !
If one looks hard enough one can still find AeroGloss, especially on ebay.

Be aware that the Elmers wood filler products are absolutely NOT compatible with butyrate dope and several types of lacquer. Plastic Wood is a filler product that is compatible with dope and the consistency is about the same as Elmers, except one has to thin it with Acetone, Xylene, or Toluene.
If you use the Elmers, make sure you topcoat finish with enamel, epoxy, or urethane. NEVER dope !

Bob Kaplow
02-23-2009, 02:51 PM
With AeroGloss products, I have found the smoothest finish is obtained with 2-3 coats of AeroGloss Balsa Fillercoat with sanding after the second and third coat, followed by 2 coats of AeroGloss sanding sealer with sanding after each coat. One can skip the use of balsa fillercoat and just use sanding sealer for a smooth wood finish, but it will not hide all the grain.

It's been a long (Long LLLOOOONNNGGGGGGG) time, but I thought the sanding sealer went down first, then the balsa filer over that to fill in whatever grain was left.

ghrocketman
02-23-2009, 09:45 PM
Nah...It's fillercoat THEN the sanding sealer, which gives an almost plastic layer of additional hardness/smoothness on top of the filled in fins.
I have no idea why one would want to do it the other way as the fillercoat would not grab the topcoat any better than the sanding sealer.

PaulK
02-24-2009, 09:19 AM
My LHS still carries midwest aerogloss sanding sealer, balsa fillercoat, thinner, and clear. They were out of the fillercoat yesterday when I visited, but he said he can still get it, and would be restocking soon. I'm using this stuff more & more, and using the elmers stuff less, mostly for nose cones, since they often have lots of grain to fill.

Ltvscout
02-24-2009, 09:48 AM
My LHS still carries midwest aerogloss sanding sealer, balsa fillercoat, thinner, and clear.
Paul,

Which LHS are you speaking of, GN&H?

PaulK
02-25-2009, 05:51 PM
Paul,

Which LHS are you speaking of, GN&H?Hiawatha Hobbies. IIRC, GN&H carries the SIG brand. FWIW, Hiawatha is moving from their Summit Avenue location to Silvernail Plaza. The owner said their mix of products will be the same, they're hoping that a better location will increase foot traffic in the store. I sure hope so; while their prices are generally full retail, they are very convenient, right on my way home from work, and carry the full line of estes motors, kits, some sunward & starlight kits, and a small selection of Aerotech E/F/G motors. They start the move Saturday; they have 25% off almost everything this week. I picked up a few motors, a Khufu's pyramid, and some engine mounts for an old Athearn HO engine my son plays with.

Gus
12-04-2009, 07:04 PM
HCMBanjo has done a really nice report on using the stainable versus non-stainable fillers. You can read it at: http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=7757

Steve