Just how old is "too old"?

[BEC]

As I've posted elsewhere, I'm in the process of becoming a BAR after a very long hiatus from the hobby. One thing I've seen alluded to here but not clearly discussed is this: how old a motor is too old to ever consider using? I have a small quantity of Estes motors that date back to my original involvement in model rockets (when I was in Jr. High and High School). In looking at them just now it appears, if I can believe what looks like date codes to be that, that they were made in 1967 and 1968.....

I suspect that's too old :eek:. I also have a small quantity of mini engines from 1973.

I know (since I've already done it) that "Solar" igniters from that same time period work just fine.

But I'm a little less willing to try to use any of the motors - most of which are values that don't even exist any more (1/4A boosters, one 1/2A .8-0S, a few 1/4A upper stages).

Is there an NAR regulation, or a rule of thumb, or is it just caution so as to not want to have catastrophic failures....?

Just curious.

[STRMan]

That are all useless, useless I tell ya! Especially B-14's. They are the most useless of all. Just send them to me. I'll... er... dispose of them, yeah, dispose of them for ya!

Seriously, how were they stored? If they were stored inside, in a temp controlled environment, there is no reason they might not be perfectly fine. On the other hand, if they were out in the garage, cycling between freezing winter temps and scorching summer heat, they are probably CATO's waiting to happen. Big booms on the launch pad.

If they are not flight worthy, keep them as collector's items. Don't toss them.

[jflis]

One rule of thumb is, if they are worth more in an auction than they would cost to replace at the store, then they are TOO OLD to use and much better to collect :D

Also, the NAR guideline that you should reference is the current safety certification list that you can find here. (http://www.nar.org/SandT/NARenglist.shtml)

This is where you will find a list of currently NAR certified motors. If they are not on the list then the NAR does not allow their use. There is an exception, the "Old Motor Program" where you can launch motors that have lost certification. I tried finding a link to the details but came up empty...

As was mentioned, it really comes down to how they were stored. If they were kept dry and at reasonable tempuratures (say, 50 - 90 F), then you *should* be ok.


Keep us posted with results if you choose to use these as we would be most interested in how they work.

jim

[BEC]

They have always been in living quarters, never in an outdoor storage shed or a garage.

I did try to find the answer on the NAR site before posting and saw the certs/decerts but all the publications that were applicable were not posted (too old, I expect) so I didn't get to read why a given motor was decerted.

STRman - no B14s, sorry. I remember them fondly, and they were a key part of a high school science fair project of mine that got me all the way to the New Mexico state competition in 1971 or 72 as I recall (in involved primitive life forms and a rocket powered by a cluster of three B14s.....:) )

So, Jim, where does one go to auction off a single 1/2A .8-2S (for example)? It, of course, cannot be directly replaced at all but one could get close (saw the "shorty motors" thread). I certainly can see that if there is someone actually crazy enough to collect these things I might be willing to facilitate such a collection.

But based on the responses the one B6-4 I have that's from the early 1970s will likely be flown soon, and after I build a new mini-engine rocket I'll likely use the -Ts I have that are in the little diamond-shaped paper packages.

As for the 1967/68 stuff....no so sure about that. They're all really small and might better be used to fill out someone's (not my) collection.

[STRMan]

They have always been in living quarters, never in an outdoor storage shed or a garage.

I did try to find the answer on the NAR site before posting and saw the certs/decerts but all the publications that were applicable were not posted (too old, I expect) so I didn't get to read why a given motor was decerted.

STRman - no B14s, sorry. I remember them fondly, and they were a key part of a high school science fair project of mine that got me all the way to the New Mexico state competition in 1971 or 72 as I recall (in involved primitive life forms and a rocket powered by a cluster of three B14s.....:) )

So, Jim, where does one go to auction off a single 1/2A .8-2S (for example)? It, of course, cannot be directly replaced at all but one could get close (saw the "shorty motors" thread). I certainly can see that if there is someone actually crazy enough to collect these things I might be willing to facilitate such a collection.

But based on the responses the one B6-4 I have that's from the early 1970s will likely be flown soon, and after I build a new mini-engine rocket I'll likely use the -Ts I have that are in the little diamond-shaped paper packages.

As for the 1967/68 stuff....no so sure about that. They're all really small and might better be used to fill out someone's (not my) collection.

A cluster of 3 B-14's! You're making me drool.

Well, you can't blame a guy for trying. ;)

[rocketguy101]

STRman - no B14s, sorry. I remember them fondly, and they were a key part of a high school science fair project of mine that got me all the way to the New Mexico state competition in 1971 or 72 as I recall (in involved primitive life forms and a rocket powered by a cluster of three B14s.....:) )

Did you ever attend any of the Southwest Model Rocketry Conferences (http://www.geocities.com/rocketguy_101/strib_rocpic_9.html) in Portales or Albuquerque?

BTW I had a similar science fair project in '71 in Tucson AZ :) -- did your primitive life form have fur and a long tail?

[BEC]

David,

No, I didn't. I was just a kid in Shiprock who liked to fly model airplanes and model rockets. Albuquerque is five hours' drive away, Portales is even further.

The primitive life forms were planaria - flatworms that if you cut 'em in half they regnereate the missing half. I traumatized some by launching them in that Astron Cobra derivative I made and seeing how those did relative to others that didn't make the flight.

I suppose some good came of all this model stuff - I've been at Boeing for 30 years now....

[mrhemi1971]

I just launched a 1/2A 6-4 two weekends ago from 1970 that was EXACTLY 39 years old, to the day! and it flew great in a Semroc Rawhide!

[Bob Kaplow]

As I've posted elsewhere, I'm in the process of becoming a BAR after a very long hiatus from the hobby. One thing I've seen alluded to here but not clearly discussed is this: how old a motor is too old to ever consider using? I have a small quantity of Estes motors that date back to my original involvement in model rockets (when I was in Jr. High and High School). In looking at them just now it appears, if I can believe what looks like date codes to be that, that they were made in 1967 and 1968.....

I suspect that's too old :eek:. I also have a small quantity of mini engines from 1973.

I know (since I've already done it) that "Solar" igniters from that same time period work just fine.

But I'm a little less willing to try to use any of the motors - most of which are values that don't even exist any more (1/4A boosters, one 1/2A .8-0S, a few 1/4A upper stages).

Is there an NAR regulation, or a rule of thumb, or is it just caution so as to not want to have catastrophic failures....?

Just curious.

For BP motors, I've yet to encounter anything that was "too old". Last summer at NARAM-50 I used 1970 vintage C6-7s in both D ELA and C Payload, and they performed fine. I'm still a bit POed that the wouldn't let me apply for the NAR old motor permission to use even older motors at the ORR launch on Saturday. I can't think of a more appropriate time to allow their use.

[billspad]

'm still a bit POed that the wouldn't let me apply for the NAR old motor permission to use even older motors at the ORR launch on Saturday. I can't think of a more appropriate time to allow their use.

Were you give a good reason?

[Bob Kaplow]

Were you give a good reason?

Other than no one wanted to do it, no. I was willing to file the paperwork with Ted, but he said it was up to Jim. Jim referred me to Bubbles, who said they didn't have time to deal with it. I asked if I could take care of it with Ted, and was told it wasn't up to Ted, and passed the buck back to Jim and Trip, where it seems to have died.

It's a real shame. I wanted to fly some classic rockets with classic OOP motors. Like my Big Bertha with a B14, and my Streak with a 1/4A3-4 (no S or T, the 18x70mm version), and probably a bunch more.

I've also asked the board to conclude the old motor testing program, and based on its positive results to restore certification of old OOP motors that haven't otherwise lost certification due to a problem.

[BEC]

Interesting....

I have fond memories of my Streak but I'm afraid if I recreated it (anyone make BT-10s?) I'd lose it on even a 1/2A motor. That would be one of the reasons to use the few 40+ year old motors I have.

[jflis]

I am sure someone who uses them can help better but one or two of the various rocket related forums have auction sites and allow the auction of motors. Getting them to the winner is of concern, unless they are local, so be ware... :)

jim

[Bob Kaplow]

I just launched a 1/2A 6-4 two weekends ago from 1970 that was EXACTLY 39 years old, to the day! and it flew great in a Semroc Rawhide!

That's the irony of the situation as it now stands. I've got a pile of still sealed blue tube motors down in my basement. The C6-7s I can not only still fly at an NAR launch, but use in competition at NARAM. But the 1/4A3-4 that I wanted to fly in my vintage Astron Streak is still grounded.

[billspad]

Other than no one wanted to do it, no. I was willing to file the paperwork with Ted, but he said it was up to Jim. Jim referred me to Bubbles, who said they didn't have time to deal with it. I asked if I could take care of it with Ted, and was told it wasn't up to Ted, and passed the buck back to Jim and Trip, where it seems to have died.

It's a real shame. I wanted to fly some classic rockets with classic OOP motors. Like my Big Bertha with a B14, and my Streak with a 1/4A3-4 (no S or T, the 18x70mm version), and probably a bunch more.

If it was anybody else I'd think you weren't persistent enough.

I've also asked the board to conclude the old motor testing program, and based on its positive results to restore certification of old OOP motors that haven't otherwise lost certification due to a problem.

I think that would be a good idea. I also think it won't happen.

[Doug Sams]

I think that would be a good idea. I also think [restoring certification of expired motors] won't happen.Really? I was hoping Ted's program would at least bring back a couple of motors such as the A10-0T (although Estes may do that for us by reintroducing it). You don't think any motors can be de-expired?

Doug

.

[Bob Kaplow]

If it was anybody else I'd think you weren't persistent enough.

I think that would be a good idea. I also think it won't happen.

Then what's the point of the program?

[billspad]

Then what's the point of the program?

To shut up a few members like us who keep pushing for eliminating decertification because of OOP status?

To use up a lot of the old motors out there so it won't be an issue?

When the data from the program turned out to be exactly what we thought it would be I thought they'd take the next logical step. The impression I get is that, since the program works and allows people to use the old motors, there's no need to make it more convenient for them. I could be wrong and I hope I am.

[Bob Kaplow]

To shut up a few members like us who keep pushing for eliminating decertification because of OOP status?

To use up a lot of the old motors out there so it won't be an issue?

When the data from the program turned out to be exactly what we thought it would be I thought they'd take the next logical step. The impression I get is that, since the program works and allows people to use the old motors, there's no need to make it more convenient for them. I could be wrong and I hope I am.

Well, as you saw in the email I cc'ed you on, I've again asked the board to move the question.

[PaulK]

As I've posted elsewhere, I'm in the process of becoming a BAR after a very long hiatus from the hobby.Welcome back! Beware, the bug bites much harder the 2nd time around :eek:
One thing I've seen alluded to here but not clearly discussed is this: how old a motor is too old to ever consider using? I have a small quantity of Estes motors that date back to my original involvement in model rockets (when I was in Jr. High and High School). In looking at them just now it appears, if I can believe what looks like date codes to be that, that they were made in 1967 and 1968.....

I suspect that's too old :eek:. I also have a small quantity of mini engines from 1973. If you're not at a NAR launch, and they've been stored properly (which you've indicated) go ahead and use them. If you are at a NAR launch, use the OOP program as others have discussed, and fly them. I've flown a number of shorties in the last couple years, which were about 38 years old, every single one has worked fine.

[Royatl]

Interesting....

I have fond memories of my Streak but I'm afraid if I recreated it (anyone make BT-10s?) I'd lose it on even a 1/2A motor. That would be one of the reasons to use the few 40+ year old motors I have.

No, but I now have a couple of 9" lengths of it, as well as the crunched, but usable, carcass of a former Streak, and a five inch length that has a nose block glued in the middle for some strange reason.

[Doug Sams]

I have fond memories of my Streak but I'm afraid if I recreated it (anyone make BT-10s?) I'd lose it on even a 1/2A motor. While my purist brethren here might object, I see no reason to not substitute a BT-20 in lieu of the BT-10. That is, since many of the catalog paint schemes painted over the mylar tube completely, who cares what's underneath the paint?

As for motors for the Streak, your vintage 1/4A's and 1/2A's are fine at personal launches and at club launches under the expired motor testing program.

I agree that 1/2A impulse in a Streak is risky, so have extra eyes with you, positioned in different places in case the sun is a factor. IOW, if you're all standing in the same place and it flies into the sun, you will all be blinded at once :)

You can also use currently available 1/4A T-motors, adapted up in size, to keep your Streak low and slow for better recovery odds.

In summary, if you want to enjoy cloning and flying this classic bird, don't let the lack of BT-10 or 18mm 1/4A's stand in your way.

Doug

.

[mojo1986]

Interesting....

I have fond memories of my Streak but I'm afraid if I recreated it (anyone make BT-10s?) I'd lose it on even a 1/2A motor. That would be one of the reasons to use the few 40+ year old motors I have.

I'm sure I have an original Mylar tube around here somewhere from an old Streak kit............want me to look for it?

Joe

[ghrocketman]

Stick a C6-7 ,or better yet, an 18mm SU Aerotech D21-7 in that Streak and let 'er RIP.
That's the way it was MEANT to fly ONCE....Fire-n-Forget !

[BEC]

This morning I rediscovered a box that my parents had sent me long ago that has over half a dozen rockets I built in the very early 1970s in it including what appears to be an unflown Constellation and one I can't even identify that may have been a Centuri kit, as well as my Star Blazer. It also contained several of my originals including three BT-10 based models, two of which are Streak-sized, as well as my very first original design (a small streamer recovery BT-20/BNC-20B-based bird). What a flood of memories!

Anyway.... as to finding a BT-10 -Joe, if you stumble across it for some other reason, it would be fun, but don't go looking just for that. I also agree with Doug that cloining the Streak with a BT-20 wouldn't be all that bad (thiough if I remember right I did NOT paint the bare tube part of my Streak, just the fins/paper wrap and the nose cone with some kind of flourescent orange paint). The other featherweight rockets I re-discovered this morning will probably scratch the itch to fly that type....

But I am on the point of ordering the tube, cone and ring from Semroc so I can clone the Sprite. I have an idea of a way to make a weighty adapter from a spent 18mm motor casing so that I could fly it with a 13mm motor and still have it be stable on the way up (not so sure it would be with tube and centering rings).

[BEC]

Welcome back! Beware, the bug bites much harder the 2nd time around :eek:
If you're not at a NAR launch, and they've been stored properly (which you've indicated) go ahead and use them. If you are at a NAR launch, use the OOP program as others have discussed, and fly them. I've flown a number of shorties in the last couple years, which were about 38 years old, every single one has worked fine.

Only a week and half into this I am finding that you are right about the second bite being harder!

I'll figure out what to do about the 1967/68 motors later. The only remaining shorty I have is a 1/2A booster. There was a two-stage original in the box that I mention in the post just above and it looks to me as if the first stage is sized for short 18mm motors on first glance....so I have the possibility of ONE more launch of it as it exists assuming I either cut down a 1/2A 18mm motor for the upper stage as UMRS suggested in another thread here or figure out how to stage an 18mm motor to a 13mm motor.

I wonder if it would be stable with 13mm motors in adapters.... Hmmm..........

[Doug Sams]

Only a week and half into this I am finding that you are right about the second bite being harder! Having the improved hand-eye coordination of an adult, along with the patience, combined with the income of an adult, your mind races with the potential projects that were beyond your skills and income 40 years ago :D


The only remaining shorty I have is a 1/2A booster. There was a two-stage original in the box that I mention in the post just above and it looks to me as if the first stage is sized for short 18mm motors on first glance.... Is this a Midget (http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/69est044.html)?


I wonder if it would be stable with 13mm motors in adapters.... Hmmm..........Yes, generally speaking, that works fine. The simple way to do it is to saw an inch off spent 18mm motors. The 13mm motors slide in nicely. I glue mine in (thus rendering the adaptors as disposable). You'll find the overall wall thickness of the 13mm motor in an 18mm case is comparable to the old shortie motor wall thickness anyway - they were quite thick. Thus, the overall motor mass is quite similar and hence should not adversely affect stability.

HTH.

Doug

.

[BEC]

Is this a Midget (http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/69est044.html)?


No, it's not. It is, I think, an original of my own that's a bit taller than the Midget. It could very well have been inspired by that familiar-looking catalog page, though.

Yes, generally speaking, that works fine. The simple way to do it is to saw an inch off spent 18mm motors. The 13mm motors slide in nicely. I glue mine in (thus rendering the adaptors as disposable). You'll find the overall wall thickness of the 13mm motor in an 18mm case is comparable to the old shortie motor wall thickness anyway - they were quite thick. Thus, the overall motor mass is quite similar and hence should not adversely affect stability.

I was thinking of the BT-5-in-centering-rings sort of adapter, like the normal BT-20 in rings for a BT-50 engine mount. What you suggest is certainly pretty simple - and I would think staging would still work just fine. A reason not to throw away spent motors.....:)

[BEC]

Stick a C6-7 ,or better yet, an 18mm SU Aerotech D21-7 in that Streak and let 'er RIP.
That's the way it was MEANT to fly ONCE....Fire-n-Forget !

That sure would be fire-n-forget....though I'm not sure about the "forget" part. It might be pretty spectacular if it could be kept in sight for most of the flight.

[shockwaveriderz]

To shut up a few members like us who keep pushing for eliminating decertification because of OOP status?

To use up a lot of the old motors out there so it won't be an issue?

When the data from the program turned out to be exactly what we thought it would be I thought they'd take the next logical step. The impression I get is that, since the program works and allows people to use the old motors, there's no need to make it more convenient for them. I could be wrong and I hope I am.


Bill, thats sad.............. :-(


terry dean

[Gus]

Well, as you saw in the email I cc'ed you on, I've again asked the board to move the question.

Bob,

I like your proposal and I don't really understand the objection.

I can understand prohibiting OOP motors for competition as an issue of fairness to all competitors. But why the continued objection for sport flying?

[billspad]

Bob,

I like your proposal and I don't really understand the objection.

I can understand prohibiting OOP motors for competition as an issue of fairness to all competitors. But why the continued objection for sport flying?


Insurance paranoia.

[BEC]

A brief update on my own situation:

At the OPROC (http://4hrockets.blogspot.com/) launch today I flew an A3-4T with a date code of 5/30/75. It worked perfectly! There is some discoloring of the motor case about where the upper end of the propellant would be, though. I have the other three motors from that package (which was unopened from by prior rocketeer days and unearthed this past January) and I think I'll use them when the opportunity strikes.

They had always been stored indoors in a heated area except when living in the back of my car the last few weeks. I bring the box with the motors in it indoors if the low is predicted to go below about 40 degrees F. That's not a problem at this time of the year.....

[mycrofte]

That's the problem though. YOU know they were stored well, but can everyone guaranty that? My CATO picks are from an old engine that was not stored properly by someone who said they were.

http://i629.photobucket.com/albums/uu15/Mycrofte/Rocketry/Image003.jpg