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Initiator001
04-16-2009, 06:48 PM
Mike,

Thank you for responding to my question about the Cylon Raider and the Cygnus Probe.


I know that at least one of those Cygnus Probe kits escaped the warehouse.

About 20 years ago, I was speaking to an HPR flyer over the phone while I was working at AeroTech. I don't know how the conversation turned to this subject but we started talking about Estes kits. I mentioned how it would be nice to have one of the Cygnus Probe kits in my collection. He told me he had one. I was skeptical and told him so. He told me that he had visited Penrose and the Estes facility at one point and had managed to get one of these kits.

I still didn't believe him and our conversation moved on to other topics.

It would appear I owe him an apology. :o

I wonder if I have a current phone number for him... ;)

Bob

Initiator001
04-16-2009, 08:30 PM
Mike,

Another 'lost' product question for you.

The product is the Laser Launch Controller.

I was sent one to review/test around ten years ago. I took it up to one of the Los Angeles NAR Section launches and tried/demo'd it.

The voice countdown feature was it's what made it 'special'.

It worked fine but didn't seem to generate much interest. The most asked question was, "Who provided the voice?"

Can you explain/describe the history of the item?

Thank you.

Bob Sanford

MDorffler
04-16-2009, 10:04 PM
Mike,

Another 'lost' product question for you.

The product is the Laser Launch Controller.

I was sent one to review/test around ten years ago. I took it up to one of the Los Angeles NAR Section launches and tried/demo'd it.

The voice countdown feature was it's what made it 'special'.

It worked fine but didn't seem to generate much interest. The most asked question was, "Who provided the voice?"

Can you explain/describe the history of the item?

Thank you.

Bob Sanford

Bob - I didn't know we had sent any of those out for review. I guess I better go check my desk in the morning to see how many of my personal items have been sent out without my knowledge. That controller was too expensive to produce compared with the standard E-Beam. The supplier just couldn't get the cost down and the sound didn't really add any safety or value so it was scrapped. The cost would have driven up the reatil for the starter outfits which is not a good idea. I don't know who recorded the voice - sorry, The whole project was handled by the marketing department who didn't consult with anyone in R&D at all. I saw it on the shop bench one day and asked what the heck it was. That was my total involement.

MDorffler
04-16-2009, 10:07 PM
Mike,

Thank you for responding to my question about the Cylon Raider and the Cygnus Probe.


I know that at least one of those Cygnus Probe kits escaped the warehouse.

About 20 years ago, I was speaking to an HPR flyer over the phone while I was working at AeroTech. I don't know how the conversation turned to this subject but we started talking about Estes kits. I mentioned how it would be nice to have one of the Cygnus Probe kits in my collection. He told me he had one. I was skeptical and told him so. He told me that he had visited Penrose and the Estes facility at one point and had managed to get one of these kits.

I still didn't believe him and our conversation moved on to other topics.

It would appear I owe him an apology. :o

I wonder if I have a current phone number for him... ;)

Bob

This is interesting that at least one of the kits got out. It should not have happened. We had a contract with Disney that they were all to be destroyed.

Initiator001
04-17-2009, 12:03 AM
I guess I better go check my desk in the morning to see how many of my personal items have been sent out without my knowledge.


Mike,

Uhh, about your desk.

You may find you have a 'new' desk when you arrive at work on Friday. :eek:

If you're ever in San Diego, let me know and you can stop by and visit your 'old' desk. ;) :D :chuckle:

Seriously, thanks, again, for taking the time to answer my questions.

Bob Sanford

rkt2k1
04-17-2009, 01:09 AM
Mike,

Thanks for joining the forum and providing your insight into the history of Estes. I've enjoyed reading the questions posed to you and your responses.

Speaking of products that were never released, I remember finding photos on the Internet of a Estes R&D design of the Salvage 1 rocket from the short-lived TV series.

What is the story behind that design?

Thanks,

... Bill

Royatl
04-17-2009, 08:00 AM
Mike,

Thanks for joining the forum and providing your insight into the history of Estes. I've enjoyed reading the questions posed to you and your responses.

Speaking of products that were never released, I remember finding photos on the Internet of a Estes R&D design of the Salvage 1 rocket from the short-lived TV series.

What is the story behind that design?

Thanks,

... Bill

This has been covered in the original thread, "Ask Mike" messages #88 (http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showpost.php?p=67612&postcount=88) , #89 (http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showpost.php?p=67625&postcount=89) , and #106 (http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showpost.php?p=67699&postcount=106) .

rkt2k1
04-17-2009, 11:22 AM
This has been covered in the original thread, "Ask Mike" messages #88 (http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showpost.php?p=67612&postcount=88) , #89 (http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showpost.php?p=67625&postcount=89) , and #106 (http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showpost.php?p=67699&postcount=106) .

Thanks Roy! Not sure how I missed those posts.

... Bill

mn-rocketry
04-25-2009, 09:31 AM
I can think of a few Estes products in the 1995-2000 time frame that were announced or appeared in catalogs or fliers, but then never became available. I know that not every announced product makes it to market (for a variety of reasons), but it was sometimes hard to get retail customers to understand that!

#2117, F-117 Stealth Nighthawk (1996 catalog update pages, 1997 catalog)
#2145, Star Booster (1997 catalog)
#2152, Zenix SSRV (1998 catalog)
#2225, Laser Launch Controller (1998 flier)
#2164, Titan IIE (2000 flier)
#2030, Screaming Eagle rocket car (2000 flier)

I also seem to recall a NCR starter set, possibly called "Orbit"?

Alan

MDorffler
04-25-2009, 10:27 AM
I can think of a few Estes products in the 1995-2000 time frame that were announced or appeared in catalogs or fliers, but then never became available. I know that not every announced product makes it to market (for a variety of reasons), but it was sometimes hard to get retail customers to understand that!

#2117, F-117 Stealth Nighthawk (1996 catalog update pages, 1997 catalog)
#2145, Star Booster (1997 catalog)
#2152, Zenix SSRV (1998 catalog)
#2225, Laser Launch Controller (1998 flier)
#2164, Titan IIE (2000 flier)
#2030, Screaming Eagle rocket car (2000 flier)

I also seem to recall a NCR starter set, possibly called "Orbit"?

Alan

Alan - There have been several products we announced over the years that we had every intention of releasing. There are different reasons for each that caused them to be cancelled. I have tried to fill in the reasons here for some such as the Cygnus and Cylon, but sometimes the explinations are simply not enough for some of the modelers. I don't know what else I can do but try to tell just why some of the models didn't make it.

The Star Booster for example was a scale model of the project that Buzz Aldrin had become spokesman for. I met Buzz when he came to the plant to talk about the project. The full size Star Booster project fell apart in only a few monhs as we were tooling up the model. Licensing kept us from taking any further so it was dropped.

So again, there can be a ny number of reasons why a project ends before reching market.

Jerry Irvine
04-25-2009, 10:56 AM
I can think of a few Estes products in the 1995-2000 time frame that were announced or appeared in catalogs or fliers, but then never became available.
#2030, Screaming Eagle rocket car (2000 flier)


Wasn't one of the announced rocket cars canceled due to a CPSC regulatory change proposal that was rejected after initially being out for comment?

Jerry

Gus
04-25-2009, 11:42 AM
Mike,

Barry suggested the Shrox designs were cancelled due to stability concerns.

Can you elaborate?

Bill
04-25-2009, 01:03 PM
Barry suggested the Shrox designs were cancelled due to stability concerns.



The rockets or the designer? <running and ducking>

I met Shrox at a NARCON and attended his session about designing model rockets hoping to gain some insight into what made his creative mind tick. Came away knowing less than before I started. I've got to find the tape of that session in my archives and watch it again.. Unfortunately, I may be too inhibited to come up with some of the things he does until I can find the off switch for the "nah, that cannot possibly work" warning mechanism.


Bill

MDorffler
04-26-2009, 09:34 AM
Mike,

Barry suggested the Shrox designs were cancelled due to stability concerns.

Can you elaborate?

Gus - we did have stability problems with more than one of the designs Doug submitted. It was suggested we just add clay to the noses to correct the flight issues. Adding clay poses two probelem - the first being that some modelers will simply foget to add it during the build, meaning the stability issue isn't fixed, and secondly I personally dislike watching a 'stable' model ascend in a severe coning fashion. To me that's not stable.

My suggestions were to move the planforms rearward, and when that was done the models in question began flying straight. To do that did in fact alter Dougs graphic approach which in turn caused some differences of opinions back and forth. I wished we could have resolved those diofferences and produce the kits. But it was not to be as Barry made the decision to stop the project.

MDorffler
04-26-2009, 09:37 AM
Wasn't one of the announced rocket cars canceled due to a CPSC regulatory change proposal that was rejected after initially being out for comment?

Jerry

Jerry - not meant to sound as though I'm making excuses, but I really don't know the answer to your question. I would have to ask Mary R.

lurker01
04-29-2009, 10:00 AM
This is interesting that at least one of the kits got out. It should not have happened. We had a contract with Disney that they were all to be destroyed.


Mike,

You would be SURPRISED what made it from the Estes Dumpsters and the Old Estes Home / Estes Storage to private collectors ... you would be surprised.

Hey, Bill Simon had said that last year he finally threw away boxes of Estes records detailing the number of Estes kits manufactured though the years.

You mentioned the Astrocam and that 50,000 units a year were produced ... wow!

How about those 1960's kits? Kits that had to have hand turned balsa nose cones and hand wound body tubes like the BT-30.

Any idea what the production number of a pre-damon kit was? How about the Cineroc? How many of those were produced annually?

Thanks in advance,

Bob

MDorffler
05-01-2009, 12:05 PM
Mike,

You would be SURPRISED what made it from the Estes Dumpsters and the Old Estes Home / Estes Storage to private collectors ... you would be surprised.

Hey, Bill Simon had said that last year he finally threw away boxes of Estes records detailing the number of Estes kits manufactured though the years.

You mentioned the Astrocam and that 50,000 units a year were produced ... wow!

How about those 1960's kits? Kits that had to have hand turned balsa nose cones and hand wound body tubes like the BT-30.

Any idea what the production number of a pre-damon kit was? How about the Cineroc? How many of those were produced annually?

Thanks in advance,

Bob

Bob - no, I'm not surprised at all. And obviously you have intimate knowledge of where many of these items were kept or stored and were taken from. One thing I would like to pass on to the guys who have 'private collections' of Estes rockets, prototypes, photos, films, etc., is that in all likelyhood your collection contains one or more of these pilfered items. No employee has ever had the right or been given permission to take home items such as the original photo models, or kit files, or our large collection of scale data. Yet today the original models such as the Mars Lander or Spaceman, or the original Interceptor which were kept in the photo studio are now all gone. Most of the printing plates that printed the original instructions are all gone, and our massive set of scale files have been decimated. All of which has upset me greatly for some time.

GregGleason
05-01-2009, 12:40 PM
... have been decimated. All of which has upset me greatly for some time.

Oh Mike. This is terrible news. I had assumed that most of the Estes treasure was locked away safely somewhere. To hear that so much work and history was cast to the wind is very sad. Sigh.

Greg

Ltvscout
05-01-2009, 12:45 PM
Oh Mike. This is terrible news. I had assumed that most of the Estes treasure was locked away safely somewhere. To hear that so much work and history was cast to the wind is very sad. Sigh.
From what Mike is saying it doesn't sound like a lot of this stuff was cast to the wind, but instead, taken without permission.

I was surprised to hear that items Mike had in his desk or office had magically disappeared over the years. :(

Stealing is stealing, folks.

ManofSteele
05-01-2009, 04:54 PM
I think Mike makes it sound like everything that left Estes was taken from his desk.

Not the case. Not by a longshot.

We had a number of the Laser Launchers that were sent out for evaluation as part of our marketing effort - that's how Sanford got one, and I distinctly remember sending a few others out to "lucky" rocketeers for testing.

In addition, we could've made the launch controllers - we had a large number of the chipsets fabricated - but, it didn't end up with the profit margins that Barry wanted, and it was dropped.


I understand there was a great "purge" of the old R&D offices before I got there, and a lot of stuff was taken home, rather than put in the dumpster for disposal.

Matt

ghrocketman
05-01-2009, 05:16 PM
I see anything slated to be scrapped as FAIR GAME in my book.
Taking items from a dumpster is NEVER stealing as far as I'm concerned, rather it is RESOURCEFUL PROCUREMENT !
Better in someone's hands who appreciates it than destroyed, ALWAYS !!!

lurker01
05-01-2009, 06:20 PM
Bob - no, I'm not surprised at all. And obviously you have intimate knowledge of where many of these items were kept or stored and were taken from. One thing I would like to pass on to the guys who have 'private collections' of Estes rockets, prototypes, photos, films, etc., is that in all likelyhood your collection contains one or more of these pilfered items. No employee has ever had the right or been given permission to take home items such as the original photo models, or kit files, or our large collection of scale data. Yet today the original models such as the Mars Lander or Spaceman, or the original Interceptor which were kept in the photo studio are now all gone. Most of the printing plates that printed the original instructions are all gone, and our massive set of scale files have been decimated. All of which has upset me greatly for some time.

Mike,

This is an interesting issue you bring up, but I do want to offer counter-point:

1) As an employee of Estes Industries, anything you created, was the property of Estes Industries and not your own personal items?

2) Estes as the owners could do anything they wanted with the intellectual properties that you and others created for them?

3)Once something is thrown 'away', when does it become fair game?

My understanding of the story goes something like this (please correct my mistakes!!!):

Hasbro or Toybiz (?) sold Estes to Barry and crew. For what ever reason, the old Estes home had to go. The Estes home was used for storage and R&D work within? Barry sold the house to some private third party on the condition that the house was picked up from its foundation and moved far away (many miles). In the process of moving the house, Barry didn't want the contents and the owner just decided to put most of it in the trash.

Am I on target so far?

Before the contents of the house went into the trash, a few daring Estes employees went in and salvaged what ever they could and/or had the chance to salvage. I believe Mike Hellmound (sp?) was involved in this and did get some of the old pictures and markets and actually had them on display at the NARAM 50-ORR meeting; I think I read and saw pictures of Mike in a magazine; Launch maybe.

The majority of files and paperwork is now in some Penrose CO landfill and the house was moved to non-Estes property.

So, can one say that any items that survived the 'Great Purge' are actually 'Pilfered' when Estes/Barry had released their rights to the intellectual property? I am NOT a lawyer nor do I play one on T.V., but somewhere between Trashcan and Landfill, Estes should lose its rights at some point.

Actually Mike and others here, I HAVE tried 'giving' some of the items in my collection back [sic] to Estes, but I was told by Marry Roberts in 2004, "Estes isn't interested in anyway in items from the original company".

I was OFFERING THEM FOR FREE, not Ebay prices! No longer free as my philanthropist ways have gone the way of our economy; I now have to make a living selling old Estes nose cones and Cinerocs! :)

But seriously, what happens if someone uses an old photo of you in a book without consulting you first? Do you get a lawyer and sue them? Do you even have the right to sue? Could Estes turn around and say that they want to put a halt to Semroc and others who clone kits? You mentioned the original instructions are no more, so who owns the rights to the instructions:

Vern Estes? Well he sold the company to Damon. Mike Dorfler? Well he was an employee for Estes who owned the rights to anything that Mike Dorfler, Gene Street, et. al., made for Estes. Damon? Well they sold the company to ... see where I am going with this.

Does Barry Tunic legally have a right to all Estes intellectual property past and present?

I would think that a book project that looks at the whole of model rocketry might be impossible given ALL the hands that have had a part in this hobby and all the hundreds of inventor, creators, and owners involved in the creation of the hobby.

Mike, don't take what I am saying as a personal attack, as there is only one rocketeer/racketeer I actually hate in the hobby and he is NOT you!

Personal copy right laws I believe are 57 years, so do we have to wait until 2026 before we can see your original Cineroc items published? That would suck as I am very old in the tooth and might not hold out that long :confused:

Just curious Bob

MDorffler
05-01-2009, 06:38 PM
Mike,

This is an interesting issue you bring up, but I do want to offer counter-point:

1) As an employee of Estes Industries, anything you created, was the property of Estes Industries and not your own personal items?

2) Estes as the owners could do anything they wanted with the intellectual properties that you and others created for them?

3)Once something is thrown 'away', when does it become fair game?

My understanding of the story goes something like this (please correct my mistakes!!!):

Hasbro or Toybiz (?) sold Estes to Barry and crew. For what ever reason, the old Estes home had to go. The Estes home was used for storage and R&D work within? Barry sold the house to some private third party on the condition that the house was picked up from its foundation and moved far away (many miles). In the process of moving the house, Barry didn't want the contents and the owner just decided to put most of it in the trash.

Am I on target so far?

Before the contents of the house went into the trash, a few daring Estes employees went in and salvaged what ever they could and/or had the chance to salvage. I believe Mike Hellmound (sp?) was involved in this and did get some of the old pictures and markets and actually had them on display at the NARAM 50-ORR meeting; I think I read and saw pictures of Mike in a magazine; Launch maybe.

The majority of files and paperwork is now in some Penrose CO landfill and the house was moved to non-Estes property.

So, can one say that any items that survived the 'Great Purge' are actually 'Pilfered' when Estes/Barry had released their rights to the intellectual property? I am NOT a lawyer nor do I play one on T.V., but somewhere between Trashcan and Landfill, Estes should lose its rights at some point.

Actually Mike and others here, I HAVE tried 'giving' some of the items in my collection back [sic] to Estes, but I was told by Marry Roberts in 2004, "Estes isn't interested in anyway in items from the original company".

I was OFFERING THEM FOR FREE, not Ebay prices! No longer free as my philanthropist ways have gone the way of our economy; I now have to make a living selling old Estes nose cones and Cinerocs! :)

But seriously, what happens if someone uses an old photo of you in a book without consulting you first? Do you get a lawyer and sue them? Do you even have the right to sue? Could Estes turn around and say that they want to put a halt to Semroc and others who clone kits? You mentioned the original instructions are no more, so who owns the rights to the instructions:

Vern Estes? Well he sold the company to Damon. Mike Dorfler? Well he was an employee for Estes who owned the rights to anything that Mike Dorfler, Gene Street, et. al., made for Estes. Damon? Well they sold the company to ... see where I am going with this.

Does Barry Tunic legally have a right to all Estes intellectual property past and present?

I would think that a book project that looks at the whole of model rocketry might be impossible given ALL the hands that have had a part in this hobby and all the hundreds of inventor, creators, and owners involved in the creation of the hobby.

Mike, don't take what I am saying as a personal attack, as there is only one rocketeer/racketeer I actually hate in the hobby and he is NOT you!

Personal copy right laws I believe are 57 years, so do we have to wait until 2026 before we can see your original Cineroc items published? That would suck as I am very old in the tooth and might not hold out that long :confused:

Just curious Bob

Bob - I give up. If you feel someone taking things from another person's desk without permission is acceptable, then so be it. Call me too moralistic, I personally cannot buy into this way of thinking. MY personal items removed without my permission occured BEFORE the R&D staff was moved from the old house. And the film you say you have marked April 1968 was MY original 'Cineroc' footage which never belonged to nor did I ever transfer ownership to Estes. So your dumptser argument doesn't hold with these items.

MDorffler
05-01-2009, 06:40 PM
I see anything slated to be scrapped as FAIR GAME in my book.
Taking items from a dumpster is NEVER stealing as far as I'm concerned, rather it is RESOURCEFUL PROCUREMENT !
Better in someone's hands who appreciates it than destroyed, ALWAYS !!!

I absolutely cannot agree that dumpter or office diving by employees on company property is accetable.

lurker01
05-01-2009, 06:50 PM
Bob - I give up. If you feel someone taking things from another person's desk without permission is acceptable, then so be it. Call me too moralistic, I personally cannot buy into this way of thinking. MY personal items removed without my permission occured BEFORE the R&D staff was moved from the old house. And the film you say you have marked April 1968 was MY original 'Cineroc' footage which never belonged to nor did I ever transfer ownership to Estes. So your dumptser argument doesn't hold with these items.

Mike,

A guy named, Eric Tamiroff is who you seek. I am looking for him also.

Thieving is wrong. Did you ever inform Estes Security or maybe the Penrose Police of the theft?

Mike Hellmound (Sp?) had quite a few 1960's photos and kits. I don't think he had anything Cineroc related.

On a similar note: Lee Piester used to keep a washer/dryer sized box of every kit that Centuri ever made in the 1960's and early 1970's in the Centuri main building. One night, someone broke in and stole it and ONLY it. I guess one of us has built a time machine and gone back eh? :)

Bob

Jerry Irvine
05-01-2009, 07:30 PM
Estes gave up rights to the objects not to the "rights to reproduce the objects".

Thieving is downright common in rocketry circles. I have had 5+ break-ins myself.

Jerry

MDorffler
05-01-2009, 08:33 PM
Estes gave up rights to the objects not to the "rights to reproduce the objects".

Thieving is downright common in rocketry circles. I have had 5+ break-ins myself.

Jerry

It hurts, doesn't it Jerry? People key your new car, intentianlly drive up over the curb into your freshly seeded yard to maliciously destroy it, break into your home and take things from you that have personal meaning. I guess I don't understand why some of us think it's justifiable to take things from others for some obscure excuse. I admit I'm old fashion in the way I think we should treat each other.

We had a rash of vehicle breakins here in Canon City a few weeks ago. People were losing CDs, cash, and whatever else they had in their unlocked cars. The local police put an article in our 'newspaper' blaming we citizens as the primary cause of the thefts because we were leaving our cars unlocked. I would have thought that the thefts should have been blamed on the punks who were actually involved in the thefts. But there I go again, not undertsanding the reality of today's morality.

I have had personal things removed from my work area that were mine, items that didn't belong to the company. And yes, we have had numerous items lifted company wide, not just from my own area as I have explained in other posts. It is not correct for anyone to feel I seem to be trying to draw attention to myself. I am simply trying to point out that numerous items have been taken from Estes that should never have been taken, and the company has has been wronged.

Anyone of you taking a tour today through the plant would naturally be straining to see some of the older rockets on shelves, or in offices, or see the printing presses, or the photo lab, or any of a number of other areas of interest. But the reality is that the tour would be a great disapointment. Beyond the dozen or so models in the foyer display case, the remnants of 40 years of great designs are not to be found anywhere. The models are gone, most of which have been stolen, the printshop is gone, and the photo lab is now used as storage. My point to all of you when I mention this or that my own items have been removed, is to try to share my great sadness that so much of the physical history of Estes no longer exists.

If you the forum members would rather anylize each of my sentances to find something in my words to help promote your own views that I am wrong, then go for it. Afterall, this is a forum meant for open back and forth discussion. But I truly say to all of you I admire all of you for your intregrity, your intellegence, and your collective bond to this hobby we call model rocketry. Sometimes I think some of you would rather try to show me up in one way or another and challenge me that you know as much about Estes history as I do, and again I say if that is what you want to do, then it is perfectly okay with me.

But the issue over the last few post has to do with my personal expression that my personal items as well as the companies have been stolen over time, and I cannot accept any excuse by some forum members as the thefts were somehow justifiable. I'm sorry guys, I do respect your views but on this point I cannot agree.

Let's move on - next question please.

motley16
05-01-2009, 09:33 PM
I have been in this great hobby for quite some time. I enjoy it and thank you as a man for all the great years of model rocketry. :) I have been reading your posts and feel bad for the things that have happened to you and the estes rocket co. There is no way to get around it a theif is a low life period. The history of estes can not be replaced, it has been stolen from us all. You seem to be a very upstanding man, not many left these days. I admire that. I guess i too am an old school thinker. Thank you for your hard work with a great hobby that i can only hope lives on for years. Help bring back the golden years of model rocketry. Help bring back all those classic kits we loved so. I will enjoy building the classics with my son and hope he to enjoys and gets the fever for the hobby. :)

jetlag
05-02-2009, 06:49 AM
Mike,
Since a lot of (most of) these old rockets and literature and devices were stolen or disappeared for whatever reason, it seems a good idea to ceate a room for these pieces of memorabelia. I think I read somewhere (probably in this forum) a suggestion that Estes create a museum of sorts. I don't remember the answer that was given then, so perhaps you might shed some light on this idea.
Those of us with original items could donate them to the cause for a proper representation of the history of Estes and Centuri. The 'relic room' could be padlocked, etc., except for tours and the like.
At our College of Pharmacy, the Dean wanted a representation of what an old pharmacy would look like on campus. Subsequently, a room was earmarked, glass panels installed, and we built one, using donations from pharmacists and historians from all over the country. It turned out magnificently, and is a stop on tours of the USC Col. of Pharmacy. One can almost 'smell' what an old apothecary shop was like back in the day when nearly all drugs and potions were compounded by the pharmacist.
Any interest?
I know folks from this forum alone could fill up a space with treasured memorabelia from the early years. I imagine volunteers would be plentiful.
I know I would love to help!
Allen

Jerry Irvine
05-02-2009, 09:41 AM
It hurts, doesn't it Jerry?

I have had personal things removed from my work area that were mine, items that didn't belong to the company. I am simply trying to point out that numerous items have been taken from Estes that should never have been taken, and the company has has been wronged.



I agree things being removed from desks and from even dumpsters on private property is wrong. There was a legal ruling that dumpster diving on public property and common areas on multi-tennant private property is legal. Of course selling a house with all its contents is an extreme example, but also legal. That is as far as it goes. Heck, Estes had to get incinerators to prevent some of the more sensitive stuff from getting out as well as destroying hazmat.

I agree the main problem is the loss of historical records and artifacts. Sadly that issue is behind us and done. I really find it interesting a poster here can admit to having an original clear mold Cineroc and the original film and do so without remorse, but I also digress.

I greatly appreciate your willingness to share history. It is enlightening. It gives color to my one visit to Estes where you rushed up, declared with a bit of over-enthusiasm that Kodak was discontinuing 110 film and rushing back. Mary than suggested that perhaps I should be careful with that information. I was publishing a little magazine at the time called California Rocketry magazine. It felt a whole lot like a set-up or prank to me, so I was careful with the information. 110 film was readily available for over a decade thereafter and I flew lots of Astrocam flights.

http://v-serv.com/crp/CRm/10-81/CRm.10-81.01.w.jpg

http://v-serv.com/crp/CRm/10-81/CRm.10-81.05.w.jpg

Jerry

:)

Model rocketry makes a whole bunch of people happy on a truly wholesome basis and you are largely responsible for that. Thank you.

scigs30
05-02-2009, 10:57 AM
Mike I have seen this picture a few times on the Internet at a hobby show and was wondering where this collection is kept? Also could Estes advertise the next time these rockets will be on display? I for one would like to see them. Are most of these your builds? Thank you David
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k211/scigs30/zestes1.jpg
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k211/scigs30/zestes2.jpg
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k211/scigs30/zestes3.jpg
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k211/scigs30/zestes5.jpg
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k211/scigs30/zestes6.jpg

dwmzmm
05-02-2009, 11:40 AM
I agree things being removed from desks and from even dumpsters on private property is wrong. There was a legal ruling that dumpster diving on public property and common areas on multi-tennant private property is legal. Of course selling a house with all its contents is an extreme example, but also legal. That is as far as it goes. Heck, Estes had to get incinerators to prevent some of the more sensitive stuff from getting out as well as destroying hazmat.

I agree the main problem is the loss of historical records and artifacts. Sadly that issue is behind us and done. I really find it interesting a poster here can admit to having an original clear mold Cineroc and the original film and do so without remorse, but I also digress.

I greatly appreciate your willingness to share history. It is enlightening. It gives color to my one visit to Estes where you rushed up, declared with a bit of over-enthusiasm that Kodak was discontinuing 110 film and rushing back. Mary than suggested that perhaps I should be careful with that information. I was publishing a little magazine at the time called California Rocketry magazine. It felt a whole lot like a set-up or prank to me, so I was careful with the information. 110 film was readily available for over a decade thereafter and I flew lots of Astrocam flights.

http://v-serv.com/crp/CRm/10-81/CRm.10-81.01.w.jpg

http://v-serv.com/crp/CRm/10-81/CRm.10-81.05.w.jpg

Jerry

:)

Model rocketry makes a whole bunch of people happy on a truly wholesome basis and you are largely responsible for that. Thank you.

Jerry, that second link's article has a very familiar name, Matt Ota. He's an old buddy of mine from the 1970's; we met in central Texas for a NAR Regional Meet in Dripping Springs,
TX (Matt was in the Air Force then, stationed at Reese AFB near Lubbock). He took some
fantastic pictures of my Saturn - IV clustered payloader, which I still have today (the pics).
I'm still in touch with him; he's working at some observatory in California.

dwmzmm
05-02-2009, 11:44 AM
Mike I have seen this picture a few times on the Internet at a hobby show and was wondering where this collection is kept? Also could Estes advertise the next time these rockets will be on display? I for one would like to see them. Are most of these your builds? Thank you David
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k211/scigs30/zestes1.jpg
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k211/scigs30/zestes2.jpg
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k211/scigs30/zestes3.jpg
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k211/scigs30/zestes5.jpg
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k211/scigs30/zestes6.jpg

Those Estes catalog model displays are pretty much the same one I saw in Austin, TX (October 2007) at the Makers Faire, where Estes had a model builder's event. I was there
on the Saturday that weekend to assist the Estes staff on hand with the activities. Also took
a lot of pics of the catalog models, but won't post since they're pretty much the same as
you posted.

Jerry Irvine
05-02-2009, 01:02 PM
Jerry, that second link's article has a very familiar name, Matt Ota. He's an old buddy of mine from the 1970's; we met in central Texas for a NAR Regional Meet in Dripping Springs,
TX (Matt was in the Air Force then, stationed at Reese AFB near Lubbock). He took some
fantastic pictures of my Saturn - IV clustered payloader, which I still have today (the pics).
I'm still in touch with him; he's working at some observatory in California.

Matt flew rockets at Lucerne and before that with the local model rocket clubs here in CA in the early 80's.

There are quite a few photos of Matt Ota in CRm. He was there for the start of HPR as it was formalized. He wasn't very political. He and moose and tooch just flew rockets. :)

Jerry

dwmzmm
05-02-2009, 06:04 PM
Matt flew rockets at Lucerne and before that with the local model rocket clubs here in CA in the early 80's.

There are quite a few photos of Matt Ota in CRm. He was there for the start of HPR as it was formalized. He wasn't very political. He and moose and tooch just flew rockets. :)

Jerry

I think Matt "is" a member of YORF; just doesn't log in too much (or does he?!). I invited him
here several years ago.

gpoehlein
05-02-2009, 09:36 PM
I think Matt "is" a member of YORF; just doesn't log in too much (or does he?!). I invited him
here several years ago.

Not to my knowledge - Matt has given up rocketry. He came back to Southern Indiana to visit for a couple days last Thanksgiving (he still has some cousins living here) and I got to meet up with him for an hour or so to catch up a bit. (We went to high school together and he's the one who got me interested in model rocketry in the first place.)

Greg

dwmzmm
05-02-2009, 10:48 PM
Not to my knowledge - Matt has given up rocketry. He came back to Southern Indiana to visit for a couple days last Thanksgiving (he still has some cousins living here) and I got to meet up with him for an hour or so to catch up a bit. (We went to high school together and he's the one who got me interested in model rocketry in the first place.)

Greg

His registration:

http://www.oldrocketforum.com/member.php?u=1505

Jerry Irvine
05-02-2009, 11:07 PM
Last I checked he was disillusioned with the internet, and who could blame him?

Jerry

dwmzmm
05-02-2009, 11:12 PM
Last I checked he was disillusioned with the internet, and who could blame him?

Jerry

Jerry, you live near him? If so, how about telling him he still has many loyal friends here? And tell him I said "hi."

Jerry Irvine
05-03-2009, 10:00 AM
I hear from him by email every couple of years. Next time I will suggest YORF. His experience with ROL and rmr was shall we say bad.

Jerry

dwmzmm
05-03-2009, 10:47 AM
I hear from him by email every couple of years. Next time I will suggest YORF. His experience with ROL and rmr was shall we say bad.

Jerry

I rarely look at ROL (especially since it changed) and I'm not sure what rmr is. He is on my
Yahoo 360, so maybe I'll send a friendly message his way before the day is over. He took this pic of my Saturn -IV Mercury Dual Eggloft (Altitude) liftoff at the Toilet Bowl Regional
we had at Dripping Springs, TX (southwest of Austin) back in 1978. This was my first (of
many) attempt at using the flash bulb ignition method, and the photo Matt took remains one
of my all time favorites to this day. The other thing we had in common during the weekend
of that Regional was it was HOT, HOT, and HOT!!!! Both days were well over 110 degrees F and I never (before or since) had the amount of discomfort on my skin (arms, hands, neck, etc) as I did for the three or four weeks following the event.