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Ltvscout
10-24-2005, 11:00 PM
I just received word from my hobby industry insider that testing is continuing on the Quest 18mm D motor. It now appears that it will be available for the Spring 2006 flying season.

CPMcGraw
10-25-2005, 12:46 AM
I just received word from my hobby industry insider that testing is continuing on the Quest 18mm D motor. It now appears that it will be available for the Spring 2006 flying season.

Has Quest set anything "in stone" about what the rating will be? Are we talking about a D3-x or something more "impulsive"?

A Fish Named Wallyum
10-25-2005, 01:39 AM
Has Quest set anything "in stone" about what the rating will be? Are we talking about a D3-x or something more "impulsive"?

I was also wondering about that. I was all set to gut my Estes National Aerospace Plane this afternoon to install a 24mm mount, but I thought that I'd wait to see what the new Quest D might do for it. It's quite a pig and can barely clear the rod with a C6-5. Maybe I should drag out some of the C5-3s I still have to see if that gives it more punch off the rod.

Shreadvector
10-25-2005, 09:40 AM
They had used the "D20" designation in early discussion, but that is not a final designation.

it would be safe to assume it will be somewhere between a 12 and 21 Newton average thrust.

It is composite.

I've seen and touched a prototype casing which was on display at the iHobby show (dangling on a tether around the neck of a Quest person). They had a brochure showing silouettes of the motor and some larger kits and the brochures said something like "Top Secret coming in Spring 2006".

I would like to see this D in an "LUR" version, if that is possible, but I did not ask if that was in the plans. I would personally assume that it will be marketed to normal Model Rocket folks who need a simple "plug and play" motor.

Speaking of simple - the Q2 igniter is now better. Probably better than the Estes igniter now. They made the lead wires thicker so they do not bend together and short out when you install the Q2 with an igniter plug or "tac". They are packed on a protective card inside a retail bag. Word is that some 3 packs of motors will still have TigerTail igniters until the supply runs out, but the bulk packs are all being loaded with Q2 igniters. If you really like TigerTails, you can probably phone in an order for bulk packs of motors and request only TigerTails. Our club bought 600 A6-4 motors (for use in class programs) and 100 C motors in bulk packs and we requested Q2 igniters when we were asked what we preferred. We had no idea we would get the new version (or that the new version existed). Cool!

Quest also now has a real catalog.

Has Quest set anything "in stone" about what the rating will be? Are we talking about a D3-x or something more "impulsive"?

Ltvscout
10-25-2005, 07:15 PM
Has Quest set anything "in stone" about what the rating will be? Are we talking about a D3-x or something more "impulsive"?
Fred has it right in his statement above. They won't announce what kind of "D" motor it is till about two months before they release the motor to the public. It is currently still in testing.

Phred
10-25-2005, 07:38 PM
I think that this is actually good news. wel... not the delay part, but I like the idea of a lower impulse 18mm D motor. I guess my thoughts are: why make a D20, if Aerotech has a D21?
A D13 would be fine.
A D9 wonderful.... but a D15 would be OK too!

Phred

ghrocketman
10-25-2005, 11:44 PM
It has been widely suspected that Aerotech will be making these for Quest.
As such I'd bet they will be vastly overpriced compared to an Estes BP 24mm "D".
I suspect one would be much better in installing a 24mm mount and using a BP engine.

Shreadvector
10-26-2005, 11:35 AM
I spoke with Gary R. from Aerotech in person at the iHobby show. He said that after the Quest D motors hit the market (and I will assume get 'established'), that Aerotech will stop making the D21 single use motor.

Quest probably hopes to sell a lot more 18mm D motors than Aerotech did or could on their own.

Looks like a nice partnership. Each company concentrating on their own core competencies and demographic and referring folks to each other.

Notice the link to Quest on the Aerotech website?

:)


I think that this is actually good news. wel... not the delay part, but I like the idea of a lower impulse 18mm D motor. I guess my thoughts are: why make a D20, if Aerotech has a D21?
A D13 would be fine.
A D9 wonderful.... but a D15 would be OK too!

Phred

ghrocketman
10-26-2005, 12:22 PM
I had really hoped that these were going to be similar to the old early 1970's Cox D8 18mm BP motors; yes they were "small" impulse D's (think around 13 nsec) but were much more powerful than a C6. (and yes I still happen to have a hoard of Cox D8-0's and D8-3's that I still use today !)
Because they were BP, they were AFFORDABLE (around the same price as Estes C's !).
The Cox D8-3 is a GREAT motor for the original Mars Lander (along with the C5-3 also) .
No way will I be spending around $8-$9 for one flight when I can buy THREE 24mm Estes D's for that price. If these sold on the market for something reasonable (say NO MORE than $4 each) I would consider buying them. I know this will not be the case as this would be cheaper than a RMS 18/20 reload.
The only application I see a real use for an 18mm composite is some sort of competitive event that spec's a 20n-sec limit but allows airframes of 18mm.

Dont get me wrong here....I LOVE my RMS 29/40-120 and 24/40 but I just can't seem to grasp using them when cheaper BP motors will do.

Green Dragon
10-26-2005, 09:00 PM
Have to agree 110% here.

I was all excited to hear about the D, same as others, but after hearing it will be composite and not BP, then the hype died away :-(

Cost is always an issue (although even a composite 'D' is much cheaper than K-L reloads :-) , but single use composite pricing has gotten WAAAAAAAAY out of line lately :-(

as I've posted before, the MOST needed item in rocketry today is a line of D-F (? G ), Black Powder motors.
Been trying to get someone to make those for us for years with no takers,otherwise you;d be seeing my line-up of " Green Dragon " motors on the market right now.

( might yet someday, but composites, although becoming compliant as a manufacturer,so we can do production, is a l;oong (and co$tly :-( , process..... we can always dream ( and keep doing R&D,etc.

~ AL

Doug Sams
10-26-2005, 10:01 PM
...as I've posted before, the MOST needed item in rocketry today is a line of D-F (? G ), Black Powder motors.Al,
I think, at some point in the past but after FSI, the shipping regulations changed making anything bigger than a D significantly more expensive to ship. That said, I'd like to see some too. Even if we can't have G's or F's, some cored D and E BP boosters would be way kewl.

I can't recall the exact details, but there's a 30g USPS limit I think. IIRC, that's why some stores don't carry the current Estes E.

Doug

Tau Zero
10-27-2005, 01:20 AM
I was all set to gut my Estes National Aerospace Plane this afternoon to install a 24mm mount, but I thought that I'd wait to see what the new Quest D might do for it. It's quite a pig
(LCO voice) "And now on the pad, we've got Bill Eichelberger's 'National Aerospace Pig.' Next to it, Craig McGraw's 'Kick a Pig.' I saw the two of these guys chewing the fat earlier today..." :eek: :D :cool:


Cheers,

--Jay

Green Dragon
10-27-2005, 10:36 AM
Al,
I think, at some point in the past but after FSI, the shipping regulations changed making anything bigger than a D significantly more expensive to ship. That said, I'd like to see some too. Even if we can't have G's or F's, some cored D and E BP boosters would be way kewl.

I can't recall the exact details, but there's a 30g USPS limit I think. IIRC, that's why some stores don't carry the current Estes E.

Doug

The USPS (Parcel Post) limit is somthing like 31 or 32 grams prop.

That is why we're seeing a lot of 'non-full' F motors from Aerotech, is they can ship Parcel Post.

( and reloads with smaller grains,ala Loki H with 4 x 31 grams).

still, even with a 20.00 Hazmat fee, they'd sell well - look at the E9 (or Aerotech Reloads).

those are motors for the 'hard core' flyers, who'd just buy a bunch and pay the fees - or stock up at a launch and let thier dealer pay the hazmats :-)

oh well... we can dream.... not sure we'll see any corburners,or large motors again, but you never know .

~ AL

snaquin
10-27-2005, 05:29 PM
I was considering getting some of the new F42-8T for a cluster since they are blue thunder and ignite fast. Propellant weight is 27 grams per motor so Parcel Post with no HazMat is an attractive perk. At $35.95 for two motors retail and you only get 55 N-sec. a pop ..... not very much bang for your buck though.

When I burn up the F and G motors I have in my stash I guess I'm in trouble and will have to shell out some $$$

Doug Sams
10-27-2005, 06:27 PM
At $35.95 for two motors retail and you only get 55 N-sec. a pop ..... not very much bang for your buck though. No, it's not. In fact, it's about 3Ns per buck. Dang, you can readily get Estes D-motors at around $10/3-pack. That's about 5.1Ns per buck, quite a bit better value.

But until some other vendor(s) steps up to the D-E-F-G mid-power plate, AT is pretty much the only game in town. The few G motors in high-power cases (IE, the 1-grain Cesaronis) aren't competitive. (Nor would be the 1 and 2-grain AT EZ-access 29mm motors.)

Ellis Mountain has produced some interesting stuff, but not mainstream enough, nor complete enough, nor reliable enough. I so want to see him succeed, but he needs motors that are easier to light, that come with ignitors, and are much less cato-prone. Nevertheless, he is an alternative source for E, F and G motors. Just not gaining much mind share yet.

Anyway, in my mind, we ought to be able to get E-F-G AP motors for 5-6Ns per buck. That'd be a full E for about $7. And an F42 at $10 (each).

Doug

snaquin
10-27-2005, 07:55 PM
Ellis Mountain has produced some interesting stuff, but not mainstream enough, nor complete enough, nor reliable enough. I so want to see him succeed, but he needs motors that are easier to light, that come with ignitors, and are much less cato-prone. Nevertheless, he is an alternative source for E, F and G motors. Just not gaining much mind share yet.

Anyway, in my mind, we ought to be able to get E-F-G AP motors for 5-6Ns per buck. That'd be a full E for about $7. And an F42 at $10 (each).

Doug

I'll buy those Quest 18mm D motors if they have a reasonable price and I really hope they do.

I have three of the Ellis G35-10 29mm single use motors in my range box that I picked up from Al's Hobby Shop at the Southern Thunder in Manchester, TN in May but I haven't tried them out yet. He had every available Ellis E, F & G available for sale at the launch.

I hope the E, F & G motors in Ellis don't behave like some of the HPR motors because I'd like to try some more.

(This is off topic but this past weekend I used an Ellis I motor that blew the head end so I know what you mean about "Cato-Prone")

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/215/215922/folders/156726/171721501AuraI69RocketCompletePostFlight.JPG

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/215/215922/folders/156726/171721602AuraI69LoadedRail.jpg

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/215/215922/folders/156726/171721703AuraI69Cato.jpg

Doug Sams
10-27-2005, 09:17 PM
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/215/215922/folders/156726/171721703AuraI69Cato.jpgWow, your I69 made it into the air. Mine never got off the pad. Cato'd at ignition, destroying the rocket on its maiden non-flight. (LDRS 2002)

This is one of those ideas that could work if Robert would have re-spun before there were so many dissatifsfied customers. He went to fiberglass cases after mine, but apparently
it's still cato-prone, and has been discontinued (decert'd too?).

Robert likes long burning, high performance motors, and that's what he builds. Kinda the HPR equivalents of TVM's Medalist motors. It's a propellant optimized for high ISP so there's not much smoke. Unfortunately, the typical rocketeer likes smoke, flames - especially colored ones, sparks and noise, all performance robbing but thrill enhancing attributes.

While I'm not suggesting he go Animal, he coulda detuned the I69 some, making it burn a little faster with a bigger (less-cato prone) nozzle and a bit more smoke for tracking. So it's an I90 instead of an I69. Maybe he's done that now; I haven't been following the line much lately. I just know there are now lots of folks who've been PO'd that won't be going back to find out what's new or improved. I think his line had lots of potential, but I'm afraid the brand has been critically wounded in the marketplace.

Doug

Doug Sams
10-27-2005, 09:30 PM
I'll buy those Quest 18mm D motors if they have a reasonable price and I really hope they do.I hope they sell well. And they should if they're priced right. I don't think AT ever aimed their 18 and 24mm motors at Estes with the idea of shipping volumes, but I expect Quest to be doing that. So they'll have to be price competitive and hence reasonably affordable.

I have three of the Ellis G35-10 29mm single use motorsYeah, I've got a G37 motor and an H50 PAD he gave me on warranty exchange for the I69, and I'm looking forward to flying both of them...after I figure out what I'm gonna fly them in :)

Doug

Green Dragon
10-28-2005, 09:54 PM
Yeah, I've got a G37 motor and an H50 PAD he gave me on warranty exchange for the I69, and I'm looking forward to flying both of them...after I figure out what I'm gonna fly them in :)

Doug

we've flown quite a few of the Ellis G motors without any problems * knock on wood *

I think the trouble with Ellis is, as noted, he likes to push the envelope, same happened with the old Ravenna motors, they kept tweaking them and lost reliability.

the trouble wioth the I69 and J228 specifically, is they;re much too long for the dia, and have erosive burning, making them faster ( ie: and throats larger), would make them more errosive, and still cato prone.

I have a pile of the F20 motors right now, but have yet to fly one , and the E's are always sold out here in the northeast, dealers can't keep any in stock, so must be working for someone .

the E's pretty reasonable, too at ,like 21.00 a 3 pak ( 7.00 right where noted. ).

costs are getting crazy, that's for sure, where's the 5.00 a pak D's I used to fly , lol .... course after being a dealer for years, I'm spoiled......wholesale pricing is nice to fly ...

~ AL

A Fish Named Wallyum
02-06-2008, 02:21 AM
Wow, the dust is thick in here. :rolleyes:
So, any of you guys with connections have any news on when we might be seeing this Quest D I've heard so much about? :D

Nuke Rocketeer
02-06-2008, 08:06 AM
AAAAAAAACCCCHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

What the heck are you doing up at 3AM dusting off old topics???? :D

From what I've heard the 18mm D is permanent vaporware.

ghrocketman
02-06-2008, 09:42 AM
That thing has been coming "soon" forever...maybe they found they could not sell 2 SU 18mm D's for the price point they were looking for, which supposedly was going to be almost the cost of 6 RMS 18 reloads (2 paks of RMS18).
I think this one is about likely to see production as we are to see the Enerjet 18mm vaporware D21 entering production.
Tons of over-hype and promises and total under-delivery.

Shreadvector
02-06-2008, 10:39 AM
This was going to be a cooperative effort between Quest and Aerotech. Once the Quest motor was fully on the market, Aerotech was going to stop selling their D21 single use 18mm motor. Since the Quest motor has not been released yet, the Aerotech D21 is still available for those who want single use motors (and the freedom of not worrying if the casing comes back).

If anyone happens to be talking to Bill Stine in the near future, be sure to ask him for an update.

Gus
02-06-2008, 11:31 AM
Fred,

Aerotech markets a single use 18mm composite D-21 which retails for ~$13.

Apogee markets a single use 18mm composite D-10 which retails for ~$14.

Did you understand what was supposed to be the advantage of the proposed Quest D's?

Initiator001
02-06-2008, 12:16 PM
Wow, the dust is thick in here. :rolleyes:
So, any of you guys with connections have any news on when we might be seeing this Quest D I've heard so much about? :D

Nope, not a peep.

I did notice that the e-hobbies website now lists February for the arrival of the D18 motors. :rolleyes:

Bob

Initiator001
02-06-2008, 12:25 PM
Fred,

Aerotech markets a single use 18mm composite D-21 which retails for ~$13.

Apogee markets a single use 18mm composite D-10 which retails for ~$14.

Did you understand what was supposed to be the advantage of the proposed Quest D's?

The 'advantage' of the Quest D18 is that it would be available in stores where Quest products are sold.

That way 'Joe Average Rocketeer' could fly a 'D' motor is all his 18mm motor mount kits plus the Quest models specifically designed for the D18. Quest was to introduce a full product line around 'Advanced' model rocketry (Kits, motors, launch equipment). Hobby distributors like this. :D

Apogee motors are not available in hobby shops and the AeroTech D21s don't have a AeroTech product line to go along with the motors. Hobby distributors are less interested in the D21s for this reason (Some still order the D21s but at much lower quantities than other SU motors).


Bob

Gus
02-06-2008, 06:49 PM
Bob,

Thanks for the explanation, makes sense.

But I have to admit I have never seen Quest motors for sale in any hobby shop.

I have seen lots of Quest kits, but never any motors.

Makes me wonder how many motors they sell.


As for kit designs, I know your skills. :) Can you describe some general concepts for kits you'd design for an 18mm D-18?

barone
02-06-2008, 07:36 PM
Bob,

Thanks for the explanation, makes sense.

But I have to admit I have never seen Quest motors for sale in any hobby shop.

I have seen lots of Quest kits, but never any motors.

Makes me wonder how many motors they sell.


As for kit designs, I know your skills. :) Can you describe some general concepts for kits you'd design for an 18mm D-18?
The local Hobby Lobby had a few Quest motors when they were selling the Quest kits. Kinda hidden though. They weren't with the rest of the large Estes motor display.

tbzep
02-06-2008, 07:45 PM
The local Hobby Lobby had a few Quest motors when they were selling the Quest kits. Kinda hidden though. They weren't with the rest of the large Estes motor display.

I don't think I've seen any Quest motors since Wilson's Hobby (and Dry Cleaning) went out of business in Huntsville, AL. I think that was the early to mid 90's. My inlaws live about 60 miles from there so I always made a trip to Huntsville every time we visited. They had the whole line of Quest products, Estes stuff, plastic models, R/C stuff, and other odds and ends. There were several other hobby shops that I always hit when down there too. Last I heard, one of them burned and never reopened, so there's at least two gone from when I was there. In addition to hitting the hobby shops, my wife and I had season passes at the Space Center and I tried to catch the HARA launches back when they launched at the old airport too.

A Fish Named Wallyum
02-06-2008, 11:44 PM
AAAAAAAACCCCHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

What the heck are you doing up at 3AM dusting off old topics???? :D

From what I've heard the 18mm D is permanent vaporware.

I was at lunch. (I've been a night shifter since 1986.) :rolleyes:

I got to thinking about it again yesterday when I was cleaning out an old file of reviews that I'd started and never finished. One was for an Estes National Aerospace Plane that I cloned with a badly started Estes Raven kit. I built it with basswood and it had too much "junk in the trunk" to clear the rod reliably on a C6-5. Back in October of 2005 I had been considering ripping the 18mm mount out of the NASP and replacing it with a 24mm mount, but I wanted to see if the Quest D was anywhere on the horizon.
Well, tonight I ripped the 18mm mount out and replaced it with a 24mm. That should tell you what I'm thinking. ;)

A Fish Named Wallyum
02-06-2008, 11:48 PM
I've never seen a pack of Quest motors anywhere. The only Quest motors I've ever had were from a started kit that I got for $10 at Hobby Lobby in 2002.

Nuke Rocketeer
02-07-2008, 08:24 AM
I used to see them at the local Hobby Lobby and at random hobby shops around the country. I think now they gave up retail sales and ahve concentrated on the education market. I got quite a few kits and 1 or 2 packs of B6's at Hobby Lobby a couple of years ago when they were clearing out all their Quest stuff.

Joe W

foose4string
02-07-2008, 08:39 AM
There's one or two LHS's around here that carry the Quest motors. More smoke is cool and all, but I'd much rather have the advertised thrust. Might be cool to try a pack on some lighter models. But generally, if I'm flying a C, I want the full C !

Rocketcrab
02-07-2008, 08:52 AM
I've seen Quest motors at a local HobbyTown USA and at an independent hobby shop.
I don't know how old they are, but they are of German origin. I've always thought that they were rather "dirty" - the ejection charge usually leaves a lot of residue on the outside of the model.

Solomoriah
02-07-2008, 08:59 AM
Quincy Hobby Center in Quincy, IL has pre-fire Quest engines still on the shelf. I may buy the last pack of B6-0's this weekend... I need some for my Custom SAM-X and can't justify buying the big box O engines from Estes just to get them.

Nuke Rocketeer
02-07-2008, 10:09 AM
Quincy Hobby Center in Quincy, IL has pre-fire Quest engines still on the shelf. I may buy the last pack of B6-0's this weekend... I need some for my Custom SAM-X and can't justify buying the big box O engines from Estes just to get them.

Hmmmmm...Quincy is just 2 or 3 hours away........can I sneak out from work early and get there before they close........ :D DAMN! I have a Scout committee meeting tonight.

I bet there must be a lot of dust on those B6-0's.

Joe W

Solomoriah
02-07-2008, 10:28 AM
Hmmmmm...Quincy is just 2 or 3 hours away........can I sneak out from work early and get there before they close........ :D DAMN! I have a Scout committee meeting tonight.

I bet there must be a lot of dust on those B6-0's.

Joe W
That'll teach me to contribute to the discussion...

Doug Sams
02-07-2008, 11:44 AM
Quincy Hobby Center in Quincy, IL has pre-fire Quest engines still on the shelf. Do you live and/or work in Quincy? When I lived in St Louis, I musta made a zillion sales calls there, but The 27 hole muni golf course on the edge of town was still my favorite stop :)

(FWIW, Quincy has a rich legacy in the RF area of electronics. )

Doug


.

Solomoriah
02-07-2008, 05:15 PM
Do you live and/or work in Quincy?
No, I live about 40-45 miles to the left. Halfway between there and Kirksville, MO.

When I lived in St Louis, I musta made a zillion sales calls there, but The 27 hole muni golf course on the edge of town was still my favorite stop :)
Hmm. Dunno that course, but then I'm not a golfer.

(FWIW, Quincy has a rich legacy in the RF area of electronics. )
Indeed, what with Broadcast Electronics being there; in a former life I worked for a company that supplied their computers.

gpoehlein
02-07-2008, 05:48 PM
I've not seen Quest motors on the rack at either of our LHS here in Evansville, IN. The only place I've seem then on the shelf was at Scale Reproductions in Louisville, KY. Last time I was there, I grabbed a couple packs of B6-0 motors. Peresonally, I like the Quest motors because they are nice and smoky on the way up, and are not explosive just before coming down! :p

Greg

A Fish Named Wallyum
02-07-2008, 05:52 PM
I've not seen Quest motors on the rack at either of our LHS here in Evansville, IN. The only place I've seem then on the shelf was at Scale Reproductions in Louisville, KY. Last time I was there, I grabbed a couple packs of B6-0 motors. Peresonally, I like the Quest motors because they are nice and smoky on the way up, and are not explosive just before coming down! :p

Greg

I could go for something a little less "explosive". :rolleyes:

A Fish Named Wallyum
02-08-2008, 07:03 PM
If only the weather would cooperate. I guess I can spend the weekend in the paint booth. ;)
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s286/Wallyum/SatelliteInterceptor007.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s286/Wallyum/SatelliteInterceptor003.jpg

Initiator001
02-09-2008, 01:43 PM
I got to thinking about it again yesterday when I was cleaning out an old file of reviews that I'd started and never finished. One was for an Estes National Aerospace Plane that I cloned with a badly started Estes Raven kit. I built it with basswood and it had too much "junk in the trunk" to clear the rod reliably on a C6-5. Back in October of 2005 I had been considering ripping the 18mm mount out of the NASP and replacing it with a 24mm mount, but I wanted to see if the Quest D was anywhere on the horizon.
Well, tonight I ripped the 18mm mount out and replaced it with a 24mm. That should tell you what I'm thinking. ;)

Another thread hijack! ;)

Speaking of products that (so far) do not exist, here's a picture from November 1987 taken by me in Lee Piester's office of two kit prototype ideas for Enertek.

The NASP uses 2.6" diameter body tube. :D

Bob

Rocketflyer
02-09-2008, 05:00 PM
Another thread hijack! ;)

Speaking of products that (so far) do not exist, here's a picture from November 1987 taken by me in Lee Piester's office of two kit prototype ideas for Enertek.

The NASP uses 2.6" diameter body tube. :D

Bob

Oh boy, Sweet!!! That is the NASP in red fins, yes? I'd like to buid that! Nice job. :D

Solomoriah
02-09-2008, 09:29 PM
Hmmmmm...Quincy is just 2 or 3 hours away........can I sneak out from work early and get there before they close........ :D DAMN! I have a Scout committee meeting tonight.
Well, feel free. I bought one pack at $5.89, and he has two more on the rack.

bobschmoot
02-10-2008, 09:02 PM
I think that it is now time that we all let the quest 18mm D die. It seems to be permanent vaporware now, to bad would have liked one (or 20 :D )

dwmzmm
02-10-2008, 09:28 PM
I think that it is now time that we all let the quest 18mm D die. It seems to be permanent vaporware now, to bad would have liked one (or 20 :D )

Agreed; it'll probably show up when we least expect it to....

moonzero2
02-11-2008, 11:20 AM
I thought of buying an AeroTech 18mm re-load. Any thoughts on that...

dwmzmm
02-11-2008, 12:10 PM
I thought of buying an AeroTech 18mm re-load. Any thoughts on that...

I've seriously thought of that, too. Could use the extra thrust to fly my Centuri 1/35 scale
Mercury Redstone (the C6 barely gives it a good flight) and other models such as the Estes
Outlander (still in the bag) and SEMROC Mars Lander (when I get one; still have my original
Estes ML on active flight status). Main question is where to buy the 18mm re-load; several
good vendors carry them. Suggestions?!

Doug Sams
02-11-2008, 12:19 PM
I've seriously thought of that, too. Could use the extra thrust to fly my Centuri 1/35 scale Mercury Redstone (the C6 barely gives it a good flight) and other models such as the Estes Outlander (still in the bag) and SEMROC Mars Lander <snip> Suggestions?! No suggestions for the 18mm reload source, but I will suggest 24mm motor mounts to anyone building these birds.

I agree that the 18mm reload may be a good way to deal with the marginal performance of these rockets when using the recommended C6 motors. However, as I understand it, some dremel work will be required to get the motor case to fit.

Given the need for this mod and the challenge of finding the reloads, making the move to 24mm up front will surely simplify things.

Doug

dwmzmm
02-11-2008, 12:34 PM
No suggestions for the 18mm reload source, but I will suggest 24mm motor mounts to anyone building these birds.

I agree that the 18mm reload may be a good way to deal with the marginal performance of these rockets when using the recommended C6 motors. However, as I understand it, some dremel work will be required to get the motor case to fit.

Given the need for this mod and the challenge of finding the reloads, making the move to 24mm up front will surely simplify things.

Doug


Yes; problem is the Mercury Redstone is already built and done; so is the Mars Lander (built
way back in 1971). I could convert the Outlander to use the 24 mm.

pantherjon
02-11-2008, 02:04 PM
I've seriously thought of that, too. Could use the extra thrust to fly my Centuri 1/35 scale
Mercury Redstone (the C6 barely gives it a good flight) and other models such as the Estes
Outlander (still in the bag) and SEMROC Mars Lander (when I get one; still have my original
Estes ML on active flight status). Main question is where to buy the 18mm re-load; several
good vendors carry them. Suggestions?!

They work great! I put one in my Interceptor at the January launch and it really took off! I got all my reloads (and the 18mm case too IIRC) from Hobbylinc- they have about the best prices I have seen...
Here is the video:
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t21/Pantherjon/011308%20Launch%20Pics/th_IntercepterRMSLaunch.jpg (http://s156.photobucket.com/albums/t21/Pantherjon/011308%20Launch%20Pics/?action=view&current=IntercepterRMSLaunch.flv)

dwmzmm
02-11-2008, 06:23 PM
They work great! I put one in my Interceptor at the January launch and it really took off! I got all my reloads (and the 18mm case too IIRC) from Hobbylinc- they have about the best prices I have seen...
Here is the video:
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t21/Pantherjon/011308%20Launch%20Pics/th_IntercepterRMSLaunch.jpg (http://s156.photobucket.com/albums/t21/Pantherjon/011308%20Launch%20Pics/?action=view&current=IntercepterRMSLaunch.flv)


Very nice video, pantherjon! Your Interceptor did go way up there, in fact, looks like you could have used this kit for the D Parachute Duration event :rolleyes: . Question: Is the
propellant for the 18 mm reload composite? Looks like a lot of smoke at launch. The
one time I launched a model on a ProJet E20 (back in the early 1980's) the motor was
virtually smokeless.

pantherjon
02-11-2008, 07:01 PM
Very nice video, pantherjon! Your Interceptor did go way up there, in fact, looks like you could have used this kit for the D Parachute Duration event :rolleyes: . Question: Is the
propellant for the 18 mm reload composite? Looks like a lot of smoke at launch. The
one time I launched a model on a ProJet E20 (back in the early 1980's) the motor was
virtually smokeless.

Yes it is composite..The Interceptor went up on a D13-4(I really should have used the 7 second delay, one of the shroud lines got caught on a fin, that's why it was spinning under the chute)..Here is a picture of the propellant:
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t21/Pantherjon/18mmPropellant.jpg

The only problem I had with the RMS in the Interceptor was the ejection charge cap and the top of the stock engine hook wanted to occupy the same space..But since the cap is plastic I just used a little more muscle and shoved it in there, the cap was folded over a bit but didn't effect the deployment of the chute..

LeeR
02-11-2008, 11:05 PM
I've seriously thought of that, too. Could use the extra thrust to fly my Centuri 1/35 scale
Mercury Redstone (the C6 barely gives it a good flight) and other models such as the Estes
Outlander (still in the bag) and SEMROC Mars Lander (when I get one; still have my original
Estes ML on active flight status). Main question is where to buy the 18mm re-load; several
good vendors carry them. Suggestions?!

I'm nearing completion of the "Outlander-D" -- my mods to make it 24mm RMS-ready. I might have preferred the 18mm RMS for this, but decided to test the conversion. The nozzle requires lots of reaming out to make it fit, but it does fit. BTW -- HobbyLinc had good deals on 18mm hardware, as I recall, but try Googling both "Aerotech 18mm" and "Rouse Tech 18mm".

The capsule also got a little bit of styrene detailing. Color ichoice was gray and red. I decided to go flat gray, rather than white, which was the plan, since I got the "Mars Lander-like" Outlander decals from Excelsior. There are also some other odds 'n' ends decals. The leg is shown turned over, it is not glued in upside-down. I took the picture to show the conversion, and didn't pay any attention to its orientation at the time.

moonzero2
02-12-2008, 08:23 AM
The capsule also got a little bit of styrene detailing. Color ichoice was gray and red. I decided to go flat gray, rather than white, which was the plan, since I got the "Mars Lander-like" Outlander decals from Excelsior. There are also some other odds 'n' ends decals. The leg is shown turned over, it is not glued in upside-down. I took the picture to show the conversion, and didn't pay any attention to its orientation at the time.

I don't want to hi-jack this thread,... but I shure would like to know how you did the styrene detailing. Maybe you could start a new thread on your Outlander showing us all what you did and how you did it. Inquiring minds want to know. :D

LeeR
02-15-2008, 11:22 PM
I don't want to hi-jack this thread,... but I shure would like to know how you did the styrene detailing. Maybe you could start a new thread on your Outlander showing us all what you did and how you did it. Inquiring minds want to know. :D

Bob,

First, I'll add that I am going to build another -- to fly on 18mm D reloads. Now, more on the hijacking, and I promise not to do this any further!

I should have taken pictures along the way. I did add the picture below, taken early, after the first priming. But, what I did was simple. I just used Evergreen and Plastruct pieces to add detail. I cut flat sheet to make the various "panels". You can get all these materials at any hobby store. But, I also grafted pieces from various sci-fi models -- pieces of an engine, etc. Sometimes I cut and sand the piece to fit. I am always looking for models that have pieces that can be used on rockets. The Star Wars X-wing is a literal gold mine for parts!

The toughest part of this modification was the "U" channel I grafted around the diameter of the capsule. This was the first piece I did, since the capsule had a big ding in it, probably from getting bounced around before I ever bought it. I had to heat it with a heat gun to allow it to soften and bend. I'd glue part of it, let it cool, and continue.

I used liquid cement, and used a small paint brush to wick it between the parts, and the capsule. For some holes, I used brass tubing as a punch. I also have a small set of jeweler's files to shape parts.

I sanded it with 400 to 600 grit where I had problems, like the occasional glue smear. I then primed and if needed, used filler to blend. It isn't perfect, but I learned enough to make each subsequent add-on better.

The best trick I learned was to use gloss clear coat under the decals, and then flat coat clear over them to restore a more natural finish.

I am no great "plastic modeler". Just took my time, and spent a lot of time sanding/filling/priming. Try it, you'll like it!

Nuke Rocketeer
02-15-2008, 11:29 PM
I did see on TRF that Quest had a D5-P certified recently.....Looks Chinese to me....

bobschmoot
02-16-2008, 02:15 AM
yeah that D5-p looks promising for gliders, even though it is 20mm, i sure i could make a parallel cluster for them :) Im thinking D12 in a central and D5-p in the outboards

moonzero2
02-16-2008, 04:02 AM
I am no great "plastic modeler". Just took my time, and spent a lot of time sanding/filling/priming. Try it, you'll like it!

Thanks Lee. Looks AWESOME! Really adds to the realism! I definately will try it. Thank-you!!!!!!

bobschmoot
02-16-2008, 03:36 PM
Does anyone have an idea when the D5 will come out?

tbzep
02-16-2008, 06:38 PM
Does anyone have an idea when the D5 will come out?

On TRF they said that the wouldn't announce any more certs until production motors were on hand to sell. Since they've announced it, there should be some showing up somewhere before too long.

mojo1986
02-17-2008, 11:22 AM
Will the D5 motor be from Quest? And will it be 18mm?

Joe

Solomoriah
02-17-2008, 11:42 AM
Quest's "new" made-in-China motors are the Sky engines:

http://www.made-in-china.com/china-products/productviewwhJEnGxromQO/Toy-Model-Rocket-Engine-A6-3-B6-4-C6-4-D5-0-.html

Looking at the picture, it's obvious that the D5-0 engines are 24mm. I suspect they make them for staging 24mm to 18mm, since they have no 24mm upper stage engines. Also, the low average thrust marks this engine as a long burner, perfect for high-altitude flying of small models. Somewhere else I read that the Chinese take rocketry competitions seriously, and making an engine for the sole purpose of record altitude flights makes sense in that light.

Pyro Pro
02-17-2008, 01:47 PM
It's a 20mm motor.

bobschmoot
02-17-2008, 03:19 PM
The D5 is a 20mm motor, i pretty sure quest will sell an adaptor or something for them though

tbzep
02-17-2008, 04:37 PM
When I was much younger, I made an adapter for the old FSI 21mm D motors by peeling the inside of spent Estes D12 motors. They hung out the back a little, but they worked. Something similar might be done for these motors.

Solomoriah
02-17-2008, 06:33 PM
I stand corrected. I'm told the D5-0 is actually plugged, apparently for glider use.

Shreadvector
02-22-2008, 09:13 AM
http://www.nar.org/SandT/pdf/Quest/D5_cn.pdf


Curves are online at the NAR website. Certainly looks like a multiple ram motor (you could often see this effect in FSI motors when you static tested them and got thrust-time curves).

Made in China. Confirmed.

shockwaveriderz
02-22-2008, 11:17 AM
http://www.nar.org/SandT/pdf/Quest/D5_cn.pdf


Curves are online at the NAR website. Certainly looks like a multiple ram motor (you could often see this effect in FSI motors when you static tested them and got thrust-time curves).

Made in China. Confirmed.


Fred;

this looks to me like its poor quality control. Those thrust increments during the sustainer thrust appear I think because the BP increments that are pressed may not be pressed to exactly the same pressure and therefore density as the previous BP proepllent increment.

thats my explanation of this phenomena. It would be interesting to "hear" this motor as I betcha it has a distinct thrust signature.

If I was Bill Stine, I think I'd make a call to China and say either change the BP increment that you press, or do a better job of pressing the current increments.

Now of course all of this is pure speculation on my part.

I also looked at the Chinese made C6-x and it has the same but less pronounced thrust "bumps" too.....

I'll send this thrust time curve to Ed Brown and see what he thinks of it.

terry dean
nar 16158

Shreadvector
02-22-2008, 05:48 PM
Dig the burn time on the "C6" motor. Good peak thrust (better then Estes C6, not as high as Estes OOP C5) followed by LOOOONG sustaining thrust in the 2.5 or 3 newton range.

Will they make lots of smoke? Hmmmmm.

tbzep
02-22-2008, 08:57 PM
Dig the burn time on the "C6" motor. Good peak thrust (better then Estes C6, not as high as Estes OOP C5) followed by LOOOONG sustaining thrust in the 2.5 or 3 newton range.

Will they make lots of smoke? Hmmmmm.

Similar to a supersized A10-3T. :)

Nuke Rocketeer
02-22-2008, 09:42 PM
I know Estes needs more competition, but I do not think I'll be buying the chinese motors. We have exported enough of our manufacturing to China as it is. I think Quest should reconsider making the motors themselves.

Joe W

tbzep
02-22-2008, 11:14 PM
I know Estes needs more competition, but I do not think I'll be buying the chinese motors. We have exported enough of our manufacturing to China as it is. I think Quest should reconsider making the motors themselves.

Joe W

They haven't made their own motors in years. If you've been using Quest motors, you were using imported German motors already.

ghrocketman
02-22-2008, 11:59 PM
About the ONLY thing to prevent me from buying BP SU motors that are in competition with Estes is having them made in China.
I will NEVER buy any model rocket motors from China; their economy is threatening to destroy (or at least seriously hamper it) the US economy as it is and I will not contribute to this.
As much as I despise what Estes has become compared to their heyday of the 60's to early 80's, at least their MOTORS (albeit with a LOUSY selection) are still produced in the USA.

Nuke Rocketeer
02-23-2008, 02:05 PM
They haven't made their own motors in years. If you've been using Quest motors, you were using imported German motors already.

I know they've been importing German motors, but I'd like to see them start making them again, or contracting out to an American fireworks company to do them. I've used plenty of Quest motors.

Nuke Rocketeer
02-23-2008, 02:06 PM
About the ONLY thing to prevent me from buying BP SU motors that are in competition with Estes is having them made in China.
I will NEVER buy any model rocket motors from China; their economy is threatening to destroy (or at least seriously hamper it) the US economy as it is and I will not contribute to this.
As much as I despise what Estes has become compared to their heyday of the 60's to early 80's, at least their MOTORS (albeit with a LOUSY selection) are still produced in the USA.

Hear! Hear!

jay
02-23-2008, 02:55 PM
I agree with ghrocketman and Nuke, and I really hope that Estes doesn't move motor production overseas.

shockwaveriderz
02-23-2008, 06:51 PM
geopolitics aside, I will purchase Chinese, Polish, Czech,.Slovak,Ukrainian,Serbain,German, ete etc etc motors if the price performance is right on.

Hopefully either Bill or one of his employess lurk here or heck send an invite to read whats being said. Maybe he'll made some phone calls and the QC will improve.

terry dean
nar 16158

shockwaveriderz
02-25-2008, 03:13 PM
Heres a comparsion between the Quest German and China made A6 and C6 versus the Estes A8 and C6.

Manufacturer It Peak thrust Average Thrust Burn Time Actual

Estes A8 2.32N-s 9.73N 3.18N 0.73 s A3
German A6 2.12N-s 11.8 N 5.17N 0.41S A5
China A6 2.3 N-s 10.07N 4.15N 0.55s A4



Estes C6 8.82N-s 14.09N 4.74N 1.86s C4-C5
German C6 8.10 N-s 10.79N 4.74N 1.71s C4-C5
German C6-0 8.85N-s 23.3N 3.95N 2.24s C4
China C6 8.76N-s 15.46N 3.45N 2.54s C3


As you can clearly see, none of the model rocket motors above, whether they be made here in the Good old USA, Germany or China, have accurate labeling.



The good news is the newer Chinese made motors have more total impulse than their German counterparts and are closer to the Estes figures which is a good thing, performance wise.

Also notice that the Quest German C6-0 seems to be completely different in its performance characteristics versus the -3/5/7

hth

terry dean
nar 16158

Carl@Semroc
02-27-2008, 03:30 PM
Estes A8 2.32N-s 9.73N 3.18N 0.73 s A3

terry dean
nar 16158I have wondered about the A8 as well. It originally was a real A8 with .32 sec burn time. It has changed over the years, but still keeps the same designation.

1969-1972 A8-x .32 sec (A8)
1969-1972 A5-x .50 sec (A5)

1973-1996 A8-x .32 sec (A8)
(A5-x dropped)

1997-2007 A8-x .50 sec (A5)

NAR curves last tested in 1995 A8-x .73 sec (A3)

Old A5 engines were in Mabel 1 tubes (.406 ID)
Later A5 engines were in Mabel 2 tubes (.500 ID) with similar burn to B4
All A8 engines I have seen were in Mabel 2 tubes

Estes now shows the .5 second burn time in specs, but shows the curve for .73 second burn time below it. Either NAR has not kept up with changes or Estes documentation has not kept up. I have not static test any new ones, but the old ones were the shorter burn time.

We use the .73 second version in Rocksim, but probably should also try the designs with the old A8's with .32 second burn to make sure they still work.

Doug Sams
02-27-2008, 03:38 PM
I have wondered about the A8 as well. It originally was a real A8 with .32 sec burn time. It has changed over the years, but still keeps the same designation.

1969-1972 A8-x .32 sec (A8)
1969-1972 A5-x .50 sec (A5)

1973-1996 A8-x .32 sec (A8)
(A5-x dropped)

1997-2007 A8-x .50 sec (A5)

(snip good stuff)FWIW, I have a couple old A8-0's from the early 70's, and their nozzles are obviously much smaller than the current ones, so this reinforces Carl's conclusion about change over the years. But wouldn't a smaller nozzle imply a longer burn time?

Doug


.

Carl@Semroc
02-27-2008, 03:50 PM
FWIW, I have a couple old A8-0's from the early 70's, and their nozzles are obviously much smaller than the current ones, so this reinforces Carl's conclusion about change over the years. But wouldn't a smaller nozzle imply a longer burn time?

Doug


. The B4 also has a much bigger throat than the B6. That drops the pressure (and burn rate a little) and Isp, so more propellant is required, which increases the burn time.

Eagle3
02-27-2008, 04:36 PM
The B4 also has a much bigger throat than the B6....

Which is why I can't stand the B6 for a sustainer motor. I've pranged two sustainers with B6's that didn't light. In one case the motors were taped together. :mad:

Sorry, didn't mean to amtrak the thread.

Ltvscout
02-27-2008, 05:00 PM
Which is why I can't stand the B6 for a sustainer motor. I've pranged two sustainers with B6's that didn't light. In one case the motors were taped together. :mad:

Sorry, didn't mean to amtrak the thread.
Kurt & I have lots of B4-6's. :p

Doug Sams
02-27-2008, 05:40 PM
Which is why I can't stand the B6 for a sustainer motor. I've pranged two sustainers with B6's that didn't light. In one case the motors were taped together. :mad: Do you scrape the sustainer nozzles before taping (or loading, in the case of gap staging)? While I've had a few fail to light over the years, it's been very few. I have hundreds of successful staged flights including lots of B6-6's and C6-7's (same nozzles). While this nozzle is indeed smaller than A8/B4 nozzles, it's not a huge diff. For example, I stage to A10 and A3 nozzles, too, with comparable success, and surely the A3 nozzles are smaller than the B6/C6's.

In scraping, I always make sure a bit of black powder comes out of the nozzle to be sure that I'm thru any clay residue. Works pretty good for me. YMMV.

...

Speaking of failures, last night I began repair on a sustainer which failed to light (many months ago). IIRC, it was an A8-5.

No matter what we do as precaution, stuff happens sometimes. My mantra for rocketry is: There is no thrill of success if there is no risk of failure.

Doug


.

Bazookadale
02-27-2008, 05:41 PM
Kurt & I have lots of B4-6's. :p

Great motor - can't fly them at an NAR contest anymore

Doug Sams
02-27-2008, 05:42 PM
Kurt & I have lots of B4-6's. :pI have some of those, too. Tell me, when you fill out flight cards, do your 4's look like 6's? :D

Doug



.

Ltvscout
02-27-2008, 05:43 PM
Great motor - can't fly them at an NAR contest anymore
No, I haven't done contests in 7 or 8 years.

Ltvscout
02-27-2008, 05:49 PM
I have some of those, too. Tell me, when you fill out flight cards, do your 4's look like 6's? :D
You mean when I'm flying at a NAR club launch? Why yes, yes they do!

The B14's show up as a B scribble. Of course you get the what the heck was that when you hit the launch button and now it's there, now it's gone. :D I like putting them in my Astron Sprint.

I should reiterate that's when I was flying. Sadly, this Summer will be the third season without burning any BP. I'm hoping to change that by actually going out and burning some this Spring. ;) I'm not much for launching in the snow/cold anymore. WOOSH holds launches all year long. We've had close to 80" of snow here this year too. :eek:

Doug Sams
02-27-2008, 07:19 PM
You mean when I'm flying at a NAR club launch? Well, I don't normally fill out flight cards at private launches :D

A bit more seriously, I've used wadding and tape in lieu of blue ignitor plugs a few times :)


Sadly, this Summer will be the third season without burning any BP. I'm hoping to change that by actually going out and burning some this Spring. ;) Bummer about the summers - what's the deal? Good luck for suitable spring weather.


We've had close to 80" of snow here this year too. :eek: It takes about 40 years to get that much here :)

Doug


.

PaulK
02-28-2008, 09:19 AM
...I'm hoping to change that by actually going out and burning some this Spring. ;) ...It would be great to see you at the sod farm :) (that tends to be my hangout more than Bong).
Kurt & I have lots of B4-6's. I can help you with that ;)

Eagle3
02-28-2008, 09:21 AM
Kurt & I have lots of B4-6's. :p


I'm guessing the reason you mention this is because you're both willing to send me some, especially since it doesn't look like you're burning any. ;)

Eagle3
02-28-2008, 09:29 AM
Do you scrape the sustainer nozzles before taping ....

In scraping, I always make sure a bit of black powder comes out of the nozzle to be sure that I'm thru any clay residue. Works pretty good for me. YMMV.



To be honest I don't remember if I did or not, but it's a trick I've used before. Speaking of A3's I have a mangle Midget and Beta that failed to stage with those. I'm guessing I forgot to scrape the inside of the nozzles on those flights. Ah well, I needed to build upscales of those two anyways. :D

Ltvscout
02-28-2008, 12:50 PM
I'm guessing the reason you mention this is because you're both willing to send me some, especially since it doesn't look like you're burning any. ;)
Nah, I just like doing the nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah thing. :D

Mark II
02-29-2008, 04:05 AM
I don't know how long these have been up on this site - I haven't checked this retailer in awhile.

Quest motors:

http://www.ehobbies.com/qus5750.html
http://www.ehobbies.com/qus5751.html
http://www.ehobbies.com/qus5752.html

Along with this equipment:

http://www.ehobbies.com/qus7520.html
http://www.ehobbies.com/qus7525.html

And these rocket kits:

http://www.ehobbies.com/qus3011.html
http://www.ehobbies.com/qus5010.html
http://www.ehobbies.com/qus5011.html

The site shows other new Quest kits as well, but these are the ones that are relevant to this discussion.

Mark

A Fish Named Wallyum
02-29-2008, 05:20 AM
A D18-10?!? That must be for flying the Estes Wizard. (Or whatever Quest calls their version.)
The Raptor was designed by Scott "Rokitflite" Branche. Another cool design, (no surprise there.) Definitely a Quest bird that will wind up on my short list. :cool:

Shreadvector
02-29-2008, 08:25 AM
You should have done a little research on this before posting. These products were announced 2 or 3 years ago. The online vendors have web pages with "arriving" dates that keep moving as time passes. Last word was that Quest shoed the prodcuts at the trade shows where companies take orders and there was not enough interest to bring them to market. They may still be on a back burner or on life support, but they will not show up anytime soon.



I don't know how long these have been up on this site - I haven't checked this retailer in awhile.

Quest motors:

http://www.ehobbies.com/qus5750.html
http://www.ehobbies.com/qus5751.html
http://www.ehobbies.com/qus5752.html

Along with this equipment:

http://www.ehobbies.com/qus7520.html
http://www.ehobbies.com/qus7525.html

And these rocket kits:

http://www.ehobbies.com/qus3011.html
http://www.ehobbies.com/qus5010.html
http://www.ehobbies.com/qus5011.html

The site shows other new Quest kits as well, but these are the ones that are relevant to this discussion.

Mark

Gus
02-29-2008, 08:34 AM
You should have done a little research on this before posting. These products were announced 2 or 3 years ago. The online vendors have web pages with "arriving" dates that keep moving as time passes. Last word was that Quest shoed the prodcuts at the trade shows where companies take orders and there was not enough interest to bring them to market. They may still be on a back burner or on life support, but they will not show up anytime soon.
Fred,

If you had left out the first sentence of your post it would have conveyed just as much useful information without the nasty little poke in the eye. Do you think you could try to restrain the impulse to chastise people? It would make for a more pleasant atmosphere here on the forum.

Thanks,

Gus

Shreadvector
02-29-2008, 09:24 AM
Fred,

If you had left out the first sentence of your post it would have conveyed just as much useful information without the nasty little poke in the eye. Do you think you could try to restrain the impulse to chastise people? It would make for a more pleasant atmosphere here on the forum.

Thanks,

Gus

My message was not a "nasty little poke in the eye" and it did not personally attack another poster as your message to me clearly does. My message was a simple statement of fact and I did not include anything that made fun of or attacked or "poked" the other person.

As for a more pleasant atmosphere, how about not publiclly attacking me. If you think you have a problem with me, and think you have read something into my words, how about contacting me directly via a private message or an e-mail and ask me about it. You can tell me what you read and what you think you are "reading into it" and I can respnd directly to you and explain as required.

Again, there was no emotion or attack or namecalling or "poke" in my statement. It was simply what I typed and there was nothing else to read into it.

Solomoriah
02-29-2008, 09:48 AM
Well, for what it's worth, I took your first sentence rather poorly also.

Mark II
02-29-2008, 10:07 AM
My message was not a "nasty little poke in the eye" and it did not personally attack another poster as your message to me clearly does. My message was a simple statement of fact and I did not include anything that made fun of or attacked or "poked" the other person.

As for a more pleasant atmosphere, how about not publiclly attacking me. If you think you have a problem with me, and think you have read something into my words, how about contacting me directly via a private message or an e-mail and ask me about it. You can tell me what you read and what you think you are "reading into it" and I can respnd directly to you and explain as required.

Again, there was no emotion or attack or namecalling or "poke" in my statement. It was simply what I typed and there was nothing else to read into it.
No offense taken. I did have reasons to suspect the currency of these listings, but I also had other reasons to wonder if they might indeed be real.

As I said, I didn't know how long those items had been listed on the ehobbies.com website. For all I knew, they could have been there for years, as Fred indicated. I routinely visit a lot of vendor's websites (most of them, in fact), and I had never come across any of these items ever before (but, as I also said, I hadn't looked at ehobbies' site in awhile). My purpose in posting was to ask around to see if these were indeed anything new.

I can say that I have seen Quest "D" motors listed before (at, for example, Countdown Hobbies), but with no specifics about them and with no "expected in" date. I have never seen any of those kits or the launch pad and controller listed anywhere before, though. And, by the way, those aren't the only new Quest kits that ehobbies.com is listing.

http://www.ehobbies.com/qus1020.html (reintroducing the Area 51 RTF saucer)
http://www.ehobbies.com/qus2017.html (a brand new version of the Astron Gyroc)
http://www.ehobbies.com/qus2018.html (a scale-like kit resembling the PEPP aeroshell, from the looks of it)

Since ehobbies showed an "expected date" of February, 2008, and it is now February 29, then the "in stock" date has slipped for all of them. Actually, I sort of wondered whether ehobbies had just jumped the gun a little bit, and that Quest was planning to make a big announcement in a couple of weeks at NARCON.

Mark

ghrocketman
02-29-2008, 10:34 AM
Gus,
I for one agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY with your statement !
We could all benefit from less SMART-ALECKY posting from certain members that have shall we say a needlessly abrasive tongue.

Shreadvector
02-29-2008, 10:40 AM
Some of the folks at eHobbies are/were serious Model Rocket fanatics. They have had inside info from Estes and Quest and often posted products that were not out of R&D yet. Very exciting for some, very confusing for others.

One of the folks (who I don't think works there at the moment) used to read the various rocket forums and may not have posted much publicly, but he sent lots of private e-mails to discuss new products and correct false rumors.

Now, if the D5-P mtors would just show up on a vendors website it would be very useful. One YahooGroup reported that versions with delay times/ejection charges were in process. Cool.

No offense taken. I did have reasons to suspect the currency of these listings, but I also had other reasons to wonder if they might indeed be real.

As I said, I didn't know how long those items had been listed on the ehobbies.com website. For all I knew, they could have been there for years, as Fred indicated. I routinely visit a lot of vendor's websites (most of them, in fact), and I had never come across any of these items ever before (but, as I also said, I hadn't looked at ehobbies' site in awhile). My purpose in posting was to ask around to see if these were indeed anything new.

I can say that I have seen Quest "D" motors listed before (at, for example, Countdown Hobbies), but with no specifics about them and with no "expected in" date. I have never seen any of those kits or the launch pad and controller listed anywhere before, though. And, by the way, those aren't the only new Quest kits that ehobbies.com is listing.

http://www.ehobbies.com/qus1020.html (reintroducing the Area 51 RTF saucer)
http://www.ehobbies.com/qus2017.html (a brand new version of the Astron Gyroc)
http://www.ehobbies.com/qus2018.html (a scale-like kit resembling the PEPP aeroshell, from the looks of it)

Since ehobbies showed an "expected date" of February, 2008, and it is now February 29, then the "in stock" date has slipped for all of them. Actually, I sort of wondered whether ehobbies had just jumped the gun a little bit, and that Quest was planning to make a big announcement in a couple of weeks at NARCON.

Mark

Mark II
02-29-2008, 11:05 AM
Thanks, Gus and Solo.

If anyone reading one of my posts thinks that I am wrong, just say so - it's OK, I won't mind. I think that I am in good company here; I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of forum members on YORF would feel that way, at least in principle, about their posts, too. Just give your reasons why my information is wrong; if I still think I'm right, I will also give my reasons. If your reasons are better than mine, I'll acknowledge my error. That's how a discussion works. I'm certainly not infallible, and I will state right now that from my posting experience here I have found out that I don't always know what I'm talking about (or that I know enough about what I'm discussing). If you don't make mistakes, then you never learn anything new. And I can say that I have learned quite a few new things since I joined YORF. ;)

I respect all of my fellow members at YORF and I admire the tone of civility that prevails here.

Mark

cas2047
02-29-2008, 11:21 AM
I respect all of my fellow members at YORF and I admire the tone of civility that prevails here.

I agree 100% Mark.

In my humble opinion this forum is comprised of some of the most knowledgeable rocketry folks around (not including me of course). ;)

It's a place where very little conflict occurs. You can ask your questions, pose questions, discuss and disagree, all for the most part without feeling like someone is going to throw a brick at you or make you feel foolish.

Scott does a fantastic job with YORF. This is one of the best forums on the web bar none.

Mark II
02-29-2008, 11:26 AM
Some of the folks at eHobbies are/were serious Model Rocket fanatics. They have had inside info from Estes and Quest and often posted products that were not out of R&D yet. Very exciting for some, very confusing for others.

One of the folks (who I don't think works there at the moment) used to read the various rocket forums and may not have posted much publicly, but he sent lots of private e-mails to discuss new products and correct false rumors.

Now, if the D5-P mtors would just show up on a vendors website it would be very useful. One YahooGroup reported that versions with delay times/ejection charges were in process. Cool.
Yes, that would explain why I sometimes see products there from major or established manufacturers that I don't see anywhere else. I have occasionally seen the same sort of thing (listing unannounced new products) at Tower Hobbies, too. I usually take a "wait and see" attitude toward such things. IOW, I'll believe it when I see the product listed as "In Stock" or when I read an official product announcement that includes a statement indicating that the item has been shipped out to vendors.

Mark

Carl@Semroc
02-29-2008, 11:30 AM
Yeah, I agree Mark. We do "gotta have more cowbell!" :D

Knowing many of the people that post here makes it easy for me to see beyond the words. It is not as easy for the posters I do not know yet. The passion for model rocketry displayed on this forum keeps me looking many times a day, not wanting to miss anything.

I know I come across many times as a "know it all" when I just know a little more than some on just a few things. If I really DID know it all, I would not spend so much time listening to almost all the conversations here trying to learn as much as possible.

I do love the cowbell, the passion, that makes this forum so good!

shockwaveriderz
02-29-2008, 12:10 PM
Fred has only become abrasive since he started listening to Howard Stern daily on Sirius radio. It evidently is rotting his fine MIT mind. <--- said with tongue firmly in cheek :-)

. Now me, I'm just a naturally abrasive kinda guy. I think from time to time we all come across a little abrasive as text is not a good substitute for the spoken word face to face.


hth

terry dean
nar 16158

ps a litle birdy sent me your 1978 D12 report.... very interesting!

evil ed
02-29-2008, 02:27 PM
I know I come across many times as a "know it all" when I just know a little more than some on just a few things.!

I have forgotten more stuff than most of the people here know.

Unfortunately, I've forgotten so much stuff that I currently know LESS than almost everybody here

"A mind is a terrible thing to lose"
D. Quayle
:D

Jerry Irvine
02-29-2008, 05:15 PM
Bob,

First, I'll add that I am going to build another -- to fly on 18mm D reloads. Now, more on the hijacking, and I promise not to do this any further!

I should have taken pictures along the way. I did add the picture below, taken early, after the first priming. But, what I did was simple. I just used Evergreen and Plastruct pieces to add detail. I cut flat sheet to make the various "panels". You can get all these materials at any hobby store. But, I also grafted pieces from various sci-fi models -- pieces of an engine, etc. Sometimes I cut and sand the piece to fit. I am always looking for models that have pieces that can be used on rockets. The Star Wars X-wing is a literal gold mine for parts!

The toughest part of this modification was the "U" channel I grafted around the diameter of the capsule. This was the first piece I did, since the capsule had a big ding in it, probably from getting bounced around before I ever bought it. I had to heat it with a heat gun to allow it to soften and bend. I'd glue part of it, let it cool, and continue.

I used liquid cement, and used a small paint brush to wick it between the parts, and the capsule. For some holes, I used brass tubing as a punch. I also have a small set of jeweler's files to shape parts.

I sanded it with 400 to 600 grit where I had problems, like the occasional glue smear. I then primed and if needed, used filler to blend. It isn't perfect, but I learned enough to make each subsequent add-on better.

The best trick I learned was to use gloss clear coat under the decals, and then flat coat clear over them to restore a more natural finish.

I am no great "plastic modeler". Just took my time, and spent a lot of time sanding/filling/priming. Try it, you'll like it!

So make a silicone mold of it now.

18mm D's are vaporware. The AT and Apogee D's are 100% revenue to the manufacturer. A dealer sold item is 40% to the manufacturer. Even with mass-production cost savings I would expect a $14 price point.

Jerry

Ltvscout
02-29-2008, 09:51 PM
I just got this info from a source of mine at eHobbies:

"The new Quest items were announced over a year ago at a hobby show. They
have been posted on the eHobbies website for about a year.
As there is still the possibility that they actually may arrive some day,
they have been left on the website.
As for the availability dates, past due dates get updated by an automated
program approximately every 8 weeks."

ARTU
03-02-2008, 07:28 PM
I have forgotten more stuff than most of the people here know.

Unfortunately, I've forgotten so much stuff that I currently know LESS than almost everybody here

"A mind is a terrible thing to lose"
D. Quayle
:D

Hi Ed,

I have a few times asked the same question after a few beers in the evening that I did early in the day before the beers :rolleyes:

AKPilot
03-05-2008, 08:48 AM
Talked to Nettie a couple months ago about the availability of both rockets & motors, she said the obvious that they still weren't available. No explanation as to why or when.

I saw them (e.g. rockets, motor casings, carry-all, etc.), personally, at the iHobby Expo back in October 2006 and am also a bit disheartened to not see anything come since then (17 months ago).

Maybe the move to Colorado set them back at bit. BTW any, firm, news on if Matt C is still with them?

LeeR
03-05-2008, 12:10 PM
Just out of curiosity, is the interest in the Quest D just to have a "quick prep" 18mm D motor? I really like my 24mm reload hardware, and am considering getting the 18mm reload to have a bigger motor option than an Estes C6. But, the cleanup and prep time is a factor, and so I do appreciate single use for that fact.

I am building an Outlander I converted to 24mm, to use Estes D12s, but the Aerotech 18mm D reload would be a simpler solution.

Shreadvector
03-10-2008, 12:37 PM
Just out of curiosity, is the interest in the Quest D just to have a "quick prep" 18mm D motor? I really like my 24mm reload hardware, and am considering getting the 18mm reload to have a bigger motor option than an Estes C6. But, the cleanup and prep time is a factor, and so I do appreciate single use for that fact.

I am building an Outlander I converted to 24mm, to use Estes D12s, but the Aerotech 18mm D reload would be a simpler solution.

The interest in a Quest 18mm composite D (made with help or partnership with Aerotech) vs. the existing Aerotech D21 motors is that Aerotech has (effectively) no rockets that use an 18mm D, has limited retail outlets, etc. Quest has far more retail ooutlets and rockets that could have accommodated an 18mm mass-marketed composite D.

By the way, the D5-P (black powder 20mm) motors are in a container and on their way to the USA. Announcements will be made by Quest at the appropriate time.