Early Apogee Components kits?

[blackshire]

Hello All,

Before Tim Van Milligan bought Apogee Components, Ed LaCroix founded the company and offered a line of high-performance competition model rocket kits. Does anyone here have the Apogee Components Dragster, P' Chuter, or Fulcrum (the instructions sheets and/or the rockets themselves)? Tim carries the parabolic styrene nose cones that were used in these kits, and they would be very easy to clone given just a couple of "missing" dimensions. I found most of the dimensions for these rockets here: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/catalogs/apogee94/apogee94cat.pdf

The body tube lengths are easily determinable by subtracting the nose cone lengths from the overall rocket lengths given in the catalog. The fin shapes and most of the fin dimensions (their root chords and root-to-tip distances) are also given in the catalog. The "missing" fin dimensions could be determined by enlarging the fin shape illustrations in the catalog so that their root dimensions match those given in the catalog, but measurements of the fins on the actual models would leave no uncertainties.

The only other unknown dimensions are the distances "up the body tubes" that the fins are affixed to the rockets' body tubes, but if necessary these could be determined from the photographs of these rockets in G. Harry Stine's "Handbook of Model Rocketry" (in the chapters "Model Rocket Aerodynamics" and "Payloads"). Clones of these rocket kits using Tim Van Milligan's parabolic plastic nose cones, kraft paper body tubes, and balsa or thin plywood fins would make great high-performance sport models that would get the most out of cheaper low-impulse 13 mm and 18 mm motors.

[barone]

I've got two 18mm P-Chuters the Dragster still in the bag. Got a sealed Over EZ also. The instructions for the 13mm Longshot and a built one for dimensions, and the instructions for the 13mm P-chuter and 18mm Streamliner. So, do you want ALL the dimensions so you don't have to do any guesswork? :D

[barone]

Oh...I guess I need to ask Scott......any problem with posting these or am I talking PMs here? I know you got permission to post the Maxima plans....... :confused:

[barone]

Okay....just having some fun....... :chuckle:

The 13mm P-Chuter BT is nine inches long. The fins are located 1/4" from the aft end of the BT. It came with a 15" competition chute. The fins are of the small swept shape wafer-glass available from ASP.

The 18mm P-Chuter BT is 18" long. The fins are located 1/4" from the aft end of the BT. It came with a 24" competition chute. The fins are of the medium swept shape wafer-glass available from ASP.

The 13mm Longshot consisted of a 15" 13mm BT and a 25" 6mm BT. The fins are located 1/4" from the aft end of the 13mm BT. It came with a 15" competition chute. Fins are small trapezoidal wafer-glass available from ASP.

The 18mm Streamliner BT is 4" long. The paper shroud transition is 10.6" long on the side with the aft end arced for 18mm and measures 6.2" side to side at the forward end of the shroud (yeah, I can scan it if someone really wants it.) The fins are located 1/4" from the aft end of the BT. It came with a 24" competition chute. The fins are of the medium trapezoidal wafer-glass available from ASP.

The other ones need to be found and dug out to provide you any info. The link for ASP wafer fins is....

http://www.asp-rocketry.com/store/category.cfm?Category=235

[blackshire]

I've got two 18mm P-Chuters the Dragster still in the bag. Got a sealed Over E-Z also. The instructions for the 13mm Longshot and a built one for dimensions, and the instructions for the 13mm P-chuter. So, do you want ALL the dimensions so you don't have to do any guesswork? :D

Thank you very much! The dimensions I need (Scott could use them too, so that he could post them on "Ye Olde Rocket Plans" for universal access) are:

Fin tip chords
Fin root-to-tip distances
Fin leading edge sweep angles & trailing edge sweep angles
Fins' offset distances from the bottom edges of the body tubes
Body tube lengths

(The fin root-to-tip distances are given in the catalog in the fin selection section, but I'm not 100% certain which size fins are used on which rockets. The body tube lengths can be calculated from the overall rocket lengths minus their nose cone lengths, but the actual tube lengths can vary a bit over the course of kits' production runs.)

If there are any other dimensions and pieces of information (such as the widths and placement locations of the aluminized mylar shock cord anchor straps and the instructions for the "lariat" shock cord anchoring method, for example) that would help modelers clone exact duplicates of these kits, please feel free to include them. My interest in cloning them is sport flying using simplified clones made with non-contest grade parts, but competition flyers could build exact duplicates of these models for contest flying by using contest-grade components from various vendors (or made from scratch, such as hand-rolled fiberglass body tubes).

[barone]

PM me with an email address and I'll scan everything I've got and send it to you. When Scott gives me the go-ahead, I'll send them to him for posting in the plans section. By the way, these models were constructed using a phenolic tubing called "black shaft". Only one source for it that I know of and Greg's not telling........ :rolleyes:

[blackshire]

PM me with an email address and I'll scan everything I've got and send it to you. When Scott gives me the go-ahead, I'll send them to him for posting in the plans section. By the way, these models were constructed using a phenolic tubing called "black shaft". Only one source for it that I know of and Greg's not telling........ :rolleyes:

...Also known as "crack shaft" because of what it often did if too much pressure or bending forces were applied to it. :-)

Thank you again for helping me with these rockets. The PM is sent. These designs should be able to wring a lot of altitude out of 1/4A and 1/2A motors, even if built with conventional kraft paper body tubes and balsa or thin plywood fins instead of the waferglass fins!

[blackshire]

Excellent! ASP's pre-cut waferglass fins have somewhat different dimensions than the ones in the Apogee Components catalog and the rocket kits, but I imagine he could custom-cut fin sets of the Apogee kit sizes.

Okay....just having some fun....... :chuckle:

The 13mm P-Chuter BT is nine inches long. The fins are located 1/4" from the aft end of the BT. It came with a 15" competition chute. The fins are of the small swept shape wafer-glass available from ASP.

The 18mm P-Chuter BT is 18" long. The fins are located 1/4" from the aft end of the BT. It came with a 24" competition chute. The fins are of the medium swept shape wafer-glass available from ASP.

The 13mm Longshot consisted of a 15" 13mm BT and a 25" 6mm BT. The fins are located 1/4" from the aft end of the 13mm BT. It came with a 15" competition chute. Fins are small trapezoidal wafer-glass available from ASP.

The 18mm Streamliner BT is 4" long. The paper shroud transition is 10.6" long on the side with the aft end arced for 18mm and measures 6.2" side to side at the forward end of the shroud (yeah, I can scan it if someone really wants it.) The fins are located 1/4" from the aft end of the BT. It came with a 24" competition chute. The fins are of the medium trapezoidal wafer-glass available from ASP.

The other ones need to be found and dug out to provide you any info. The link for ASP wafer fins is....

http://www.asp-rocketry.com/store/category.cfm?Category=235

[barone]

You can actually buy the wafer glass in sheets and cut the required shapes by hand. The thin stuff (don't you like those super technical terms.... :D ) is easily cut with scissors or a hobby knife (I prefer the scissors since it doesn't take as long). I'll scan the plans and templates in tonight (if my grandaughter lets me... :D ) and get them sent to you.

Scott....I'll send them to your FTP site so you'll have them available if you can post them. I don't know if Tim owns rights to the designs or if Ed still has them. Ed's a member of my NAR section so if I need to get in touch with him, let me know.

[Ltvscout]

No need to ask me if I ever want plans sent that I don't have online. The answer is always yes! ;)

If you would, please ask Ed if it's ok to post them online. Thanks.

I see I do already have one plan online that came from you.

http://www.oldrocketplans.com/apogee.htm

Don, if there's a logo for the old Apogee company on any of those old kits you have please scan it for me and send it along also.

[barone]

Scott,

The instructions don't have the logo on them but the catalog cover is the same logo that Tim is using.

[blackshire]

You can actually buy the wafer glass in sheets and cut the required shapes by hand. The thin stuff (don't you like those super technical terms.... :D ) is easily cut with scissors or a hobby knife (I prefer the scissors since it doesn't take as long). I'll scan the plans and templates in tonight (if my grandaughter lets me... :D ) and get them sent to you.

Scott....I'll send them to your FTP site so you'll have them available if you can post them. I don't know if Tim owns rights to the designs or if Ed still has them. Ed's a member of my NAR section so if I need to get in touch with him, let me know.

I've had good results with very thin fins made of two layers of 110 pound card stock that are laminated together using a very thin film of white glue, then pressed together between sheets of wax paper under a heavy object. I shy away from waferglass because the glues required for bonding it to body tubes (epoxy and polyurethane) give me shortness of breath and tightness in my chest, whereas white glue and yellow glue don't irritate my lungs or skin.

[blackshire]

Laminated card stock fins are a viable alternative to waferglass fins, and they bond to kraft paper body tubes very strongly with white glue or yellow wood glue. These would be even better than balsa fins for clones of the early Apogee Components kits. I've had good results with very thin fins made of two layers of 110 pound card stock that are laminated together using a very thin film of white glue, then pressed together between sheets of wax paper under a heavy object.

I cut out each fin so that it consists of two "mirror images" of the fin, joined at the leading edge. I fold this "double fin" at the leading edge joint line. When pressed together using a very thin film of glue between the two faces, these fins are very stiff and strong.

[gpoehlein]

Laminated card stock fins are a viable alternative to waferglass fins, and they bond to kraft paper body tubes very strongly with white glue or yellow wood glue. These would be even better than balsa fins for clones of the early Apogee Components kits. I've had good results with very thin fins made of two layers of 110 pound card stock that are laminated together using a very thin film of white glue, then pressed together between sheets of wax paper under a heavy object.

I cut out each fin so that it consists of two "mirror images" of the fin, joined at the leading edge. I fold this "double fin" at the leading edge joint line. When pressed together using a very thin film of glue between the two faces, these fins are very stiff and strong.

I do the same, but I add a core from either a couple more layers of cardstock or a piece of cardboard or matte board. I cut the core about 1/4" shorter than the tip and trailing edge of the fin, then glue it flush with the root and against the leading edge fold. I then burnish down the trailing edge and the tip, giving the fin a bit of an airfoil.

Greg