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metlfreak
10-28-2009, 12:41 AM
HI Josh. I'm not sure how some of the rumors get started, but the "F"
thing is just an idea at this point. What I can say that we are working
on for sure is bringing the C-11 series back to market (C11-0, 3, 5, and
7), and that will likely happen just after the first of the year. We are
also going to bring back the A8-0 and A10-0 boosters, which should be
available after the first of the year as well. Any plans for an "F" are
way out there.
Regards,
Mike Fritz
Estes-Cox Corporation

I dont know about quest but Etes isnt coming out with an F anytime soon. But the A8-0 is coming back.

BEC
10-28-2009, 01:01 AM
I hope that it happens as Mr. Fritz describes. I could definitely use A boosters and could probably find a use for 24 mm C's, too....

Mark II
10-28-2009, 02:49 AM
I'll second that; I would love to see "A" impulse boosters and the entire C11 line back in production. Both A-range booster motors and the C11 boosters would be especially welcome.

MarkII

Mark II
10-28-2009, 03:28 AM
I burned a lot of C11's this past summer and in the process I became quite fond of that motor. In particular, the C11-5 became my "go to" motor. I have stuff that goes out of sight with a D12-0 booster, which is quite thrilling under the right circumstances. But there were plenty of other times when the D12 booster would have been too much, and I could have flown if only I had a C11-0 booster to use. I think that the C11 has always been an underappreciated motor, and I am very glad to hear that Estes wants to produce it again in all of its delay configurations.

MarkII

STRMan
10-28-2009, 06:23 AM
I have been hoarding a half dozen C11-0's, afraid to use them because it was getting near impossible to replace them. I can't wait to start using them once I can get some replacements.

Still holding my breath on the A8-0's :D

Rocketcrab
10-28-2009, 07:40 AM
I think the C11 line was a great idea when they were first introduced, mainly for the reason several people have already stated - they are a great alternative to models usually flown on D12s, that given the weather conditions may never come back. I too have been carefully husbanding my stash of -5 and -7 C11's. I hope they follow through on this.

tbzep
10-28-2009, 08:13 AM
They've been telling us the A boosters were coming back for a good while now. Nothing yet. :rolleyes:

rokitflite
10-28-2009, 08:57 AM
They've been telling us the A boosters were coming back for a good while now. Nothing yet. :rolleyes:

Its like Tinkerbell... You have to clap your hands if you believe. I don't hear any clapping...

ghrocketman
10-28-2009, 09:54 AM
Anything that Estes/Cox claims is "coming" for the past several years has more often than not ended in disappointment or arrived several YEARS late.
Whenever they announce ANYTHING, I believe it when I have the actual production item in my hands.
Otherwise I write it off as likely "vaporware" !
They just don't get the concept of "UNDER-promise, yet OVER-deliver"; they do the opposite which quite frankly is a hideous way to do business.
SOP for that company is to deliver production items extremely late if at all.
There is another company in the industry that in my book is getting close to approaching this level of "nuisance" announcements as well.

mikeyd
10-28-2009, 06:17 PM
Mike, thanks for the update. I am looking forward to the A10-0T as I have a couple of vintage Midget's I would like to fly dual stage again. As far as the other noise, I have to thank Estes for taking the time to communicate to us, even plans that do not go "as Planned". While this is one of the best times in rocketry, with all the choices available, Estes has always been there to supply motors, and parts, and even listened to us little guys, and brought out some new kits that were more than 3FNC. I am always glad when the Big fish, do not just eat the little fish, and even help us shrimp out on occasion.


Thanks Mike

Mark II
10-28-2009, 06:23 PM
Anything that Estes/Cox claims is "coming" for the past several years has more often than not ended in disappointment or arrived several YEARS late.
Whenever they announce ANYTHING, I believe it when I have the actual production item in my hands.
Otherwise I write it off as likely "vaporware" !
They just don't get the concept of "UNDER-promise, yet OVER-deliver"; they do the opposite which quite frankly is a hideous way to do business.
SOP for that company is to deliver production items extremely late if at all.
There is another company in the industry that in my book is getting close to approaching this level of "nuisance" announcements as well.All very true, but commenting favorably on an announcement on a rocketry forum doesn't cost anything. You can't buy a kit or a motor that doesn't exist, so you don't lose any money if no product is ever actually released. There is no harm in merely expressing interest; when or if the product ever reaches the shelves, then you can evaluate it and decide whether or not you want to buy it.

MarkII

Mikus
10-29-2009, 01:25 PM
He didn't say which year.....

:chuckle:

Rustee
10-29-2009, 06:55 PM
Hmm,so the C-11 is what you want for a quick,low-altitude boost in a D-powered rocket? Cool,I'll have to pick some up. You'll recall I like the low-and-slow approach,just like my highly successful Double Fat Boy launch,that proved that some were completely right,and others were proven horribly wrong...

AFlyingMonkey
10-30-2009, 07:13 AM
just call me Blue Boy, I'm going to hold my breath until it happens. :eek:

I've been hearing about the A8-0's for a while, and with the limited access to the C11-3s my fiberglass egglofter is going up on the shelf until i need a D contestant.

Still I'd love to see the A8-0, they haven't been out in my lifetime for what I understand, and with me building an up scaled beta, the A8-0 would be perfect. But I lived in MO for way too long, show-me. I have to see in order to believe here.

ghrocketman
10-30-2009, 11:02 AM
The A8-0 and A10-0T were announced as "coming soon" when they announced they would come out with the "classic series" of re-issue kits.
Their LAME excuse of the "lead law" causing them to delay the "classic series" has absolutely ZERO to do with their ability to produce the A8-0 and A10-0T engines.
Any excuse regarding these not being in hands and on shelves is pure unadulterated BUNK.
The response FROM EVERYONE that Estes deserves to this excuse for delays in the re-release of these booster motors is "Don't gimme any of that GUFF !"
I'll believe it when I have them in my hand and not until.

I just wish we had another source of reasonably priced SU BP engines that came with some sort of variety of choices, not just the same ol' A8-3, B6-4, C6-5 offerings.
I'll get off the soapbox now; I fly more 18, 24, and 29mm RMS now than anything else anyway.

privateer
10-30-2009, 11:13 AM
I need C11-5's for my BMS Viking, so this is good news.

I hope both Quest and Estes come out with big BP motors.

Mark II
10-31-2009, 12:35 AM
Hmm,so the C-11 is what you want for a quick,low-altitude boost in a D-powered rocket? Cool,I'll have to pick some up. You'll recall I like the low-and-slow approach,just like my highly successful Double Fat Boy launch,that proved that some were completely right,and others were proven horribly wrong...You are going to just keep rubbing that in, aren't you... :p As I recall, you DID ask for opinions... (while initially providing just sketchy, incomplete information). :rolleyes: So we were punked. But that's OK, I'm a good sport. :D

C11-0's give lower boosts than D12-0's, but there is nothing slow about them. A C11 will stage at somewhere around 250 ft., vs. 400 ft. or more for the D.

I'm not looking for low and slow with the C11, just something that is not so stratospheric. I flew my Echo-1 at NARAM-51 on D12-0/C11-7 combination. It was just a speck when it staged, and the sustainer quickly disappeared into the clouds. Fortunately, a few tense seconds later, we saw it drop back out of the cloud cover under 'chute, and I tracked it most of the way back down. I was able to find it about 1/2 mile away after searching for about 45 minutes. It was a thrilling flight for sure, but I don't think that I will get another opportunity to launch in such a large field again, with so many eyes to help track it, anytime soon. So yeah, I'm hoping to get my hands on some C11-0's in order to get in somewhat less hand-wringing, nail-biting flights.

MarkII

P.S. "Highly successful?" I thought that you told us that the sustainer tipped at staging and flew a ballistic trajectory. But yeah, it deployed the parachute above the ground, so it was successful. BTW, have you flown it anymore with that same motor configuration since that one time?

panja12
10-31-2009, 09:22 AM
try launching in a baseball park surrounded by trees, it's a slim chance it'll ever come back

Doug Sams
10-31-2009, 09:24 AM
I flew my Echo-1 at NARAM-51 on D12-0/C11-7 combination. It was just a speck when it staged, and the sustainer quickly disappeared into the clouds. Dang, Mark, you went large on the motor mount substitution. When I build my Echo-1 kit, I replaced the stock 22mm (IIRC) tubes with 18mm. I didn't even consider 24 :)

As an aside, when I replaced the original rings, I was surprised how sloppily the CR20-55 rings fit into the BT-55 tubes. I had to add a couple wraps of tape (as I recall) to get the rings to fit better. It was only later that I realized the tubes weren't BT-55 :o and that FSI used ST-13 (aka BT-56).

Doug

.

tbzep
10-31-2009, 10:28 AM
It was a windy day. He should have launched in calm air. :cool:

As for slow, Mark's right. The C11 is a kick in the pants compared to the C6. The spike is only 8 newtons short of the D12 (~22 vs ~30). The D12's sustaining thrust is almost three times longer. The C11's work is done in eight tenths of a second, where the D12 goes on for over a second and a half. The C6 actually burns longer than a D12.

Bob Kaplow
10-31-2009, 01:25 PM
The return of the A8-0 and A10-0 were both announced at the 2008 hobby show last year.

Seems like Estes has been busy with other stuff (the new lead regulations???) and never got to the stuff they were showing at last years show. Alas, I didn't make it to the show this year to see what's in the pipe for next year...

rokitflite
11-07-2009, 09:06 AM
. Alas, I didn't make it to the show this year to see what's in the pipe for next year...

Everything that was promised for last year...

ghrocketman
11-08-2009, 12:18 PM
So they showed the same vaporware again ay ?
I don't believe 10% of what comes out of Estes as "press releases" or is shown at hobby shows due to the fact that the majority never makes it anyway.

RocketBoy 32
11-08-2009, 10:34 PM
Speaking of vaporware, any news on when the "Classic Series - Coming in Spring 2009" will be released if ever at all? Fall of 2010 or 11? It's too bad I'm not being sarcastic. I'm getting the same feeling about Estes that I get from push up bras. You see what you want but it's mostly, um, not in stock. Ahem.

rokitflite
11-08-2009, 10:52 PM
Speaking of vaporware, any news on when the "Classic Series - Coming in Spring 2009" will be released if ever at all? Fall of 2010 or 11? It's too bad I'm not being sarcastic. I'm getting the same feeling about Estes that I get from push up bras. You see what you want but it's mostly, um, not in stock. Ahem.

:chuckle:!

motley16
11-09-2009, 08:57 PM
i understand the classics are due out in late decemberof this year.

rokitflite
11-10-2009, 09:47 AM
i understand the classics are due out in late decemberof this year.


Don't stop, believing... Hold on to that feeling, roc-ket people oh,oh, oh!

Shreadvector
11-10-2009, 10:35 AM
Don't stop, believing... Hold on to that feeling, roc-ket people oh,oh, oh!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGkhw-4tMFE

GuyNoir
11-10-2009, 10:50 PM
So they showed the same vaporware again ay ?.

Me, I'm bettin' the under line. . . .

Mikus
11-12-2009, 11:17 AM
i understand the classics are due out in late decemberof this year.

Source? Or is this speculation?

Bill
11-12-2009, 12:47 PM
i understand the classics are due out in late decemberof this year.

At the very least, they need to get the next set of Sustainables out to Wally World before Christmas. I do not see the current set moving much as I make the rounds looking for motors to go on sale.

And while on the subject, they really should get the RTF or almost RTF starter sets and individual rockets back on the shelf. I know we as hobbyists want to build our own, but the kind of audience they would tend to snag at Wally World are those people looking for something to go outside and do that day. Having to build a traditional kit does not fit that need very well.


Bill

BEC
11-12-2009, 02:31 PM
I had noticed that in my W*M rounds (same reason - looking for sale engines).

Around here (south of Seattle) there are the "sustainables", lots of Moon Mutts - an ARF starter set for which you have to go to the hobby store to get appropriate engines (1/2A6-4) - and one other starter set, the name of which escapes me. The HiJinks/Rascal RTFs have disappeared (even though they're good flyers and can use at least some of the engines they sell at W*M).

I know when we had Estes folks participating here in the spring they gave the impression that W*M dictated what Estes provided, but it makes no sense (at least to me) to sell combinations in the store that have no chance of working right.

ghrocketman
11-12-2009, 02:56 PM
Does not surprise me in the least that wall-mutt has estes combinations of motors/rockets that have no hope of working right.
Typical employees there are drones following corporate directives provided by corporate people that are clueless as well.
I for the life of me have no idea why WM does as well as they do, but I value things other than just the lowest possible price for everything.

motley16
11-12-2009, 05:51 PM
Source? Or is this speculation?
this is based on a source that has given me good info on other news from estes. i hope this again is good info. :)

Bill
11-12-2009, 06:08 PM
I had noticed that in my W*M rounds (same reason - looking for sale engines).

Around here (south of Seattle) there are the "sustainables", lots of Moon Mutts - an ARF starter set for which you have to go to the hobby store to get appropriate engines (1/2A6-4) - and one other starter set, the name of which escapes me. The HiJinks/Rascal RTFs have disappeared (even though they're good flyers and can use at least some of the engines they sell at W*M).

I know when we had Estes folks participating here in the spring they gave the impression that W*M dictated what Estes provided, but it makes no sense (at least to me) to sell combinations in the store that have no chance of working right.


Around here (northern suburbs of Dallas), just under half of the stores eventually stocked the Sustainables line, though most of them did not at first. Turnover was good the first several months as hobbyists grabbed them up. In the recent months, they do not appear to sell at all. WalMart may well decide to do something else next year. At least I have seen the Sustainables line at HobbyTown, so they may still be available even if Wally should decide to drop them.

As far as cheap motors go, last year at this time, we were enjoying a bounty of clearance sales first at Target, then WalMart. This year, Target did not carry motors at all, so none to liquidate. Some WalMarts have already moved their motors to the clearance section, but at the usual $5.97 price, with C6-5s at $3 a pack at a few stores.

I did get lucky at one, buying a bunch of C6-5 packs at $1.50 each, but it took a bit of luck and keen powers of observation. That store had C6s in the clearance section in all three delays, -3, -5 and -7. I picked up one pack of each and scanned them. The -3 and -7 scanned at their normal price, but the C6-5s at $1.50. So I put the -3s and -7s back and scooped up all of the -5s. For some reason, I decided to scan it again to verify I read the price correctly. It scanned at $5.97. WTF? Then I noticed that some of the packs had a sticker with a different bar code over the original printed code. The sticker scanned at $5.97, the original at $1.50. Hmm, must be left over from last season. Thinking quickly, I took them to the checkout and mentioned that I was confused as to why they rang up at different prices when they are the same identical item. I was allowed to take them all home at the lower price.


Bill

Initiator001
11-12-2009, 07:05 PM
i understand the classics are due out in late decemberof this year.

According to the Tower Hobbies website (The world's largest hobby distributor) the release dates on the Estes Classic Series has now changed to Feburary or May of 2010.

The NEW Estes kits (Reflector, Mini-(Red)-Max, etc.) now have release dates of January or February 2010.

"...And so it goes..." :rolleyes:

Bob

motley16
11-12-2009, 07:32 PM
According to the Tower Hobbies website (The world's largest hobby distributor) the release dates on the Estes Classic Series has now changed to Feburary or May of 2010.

The NEW Estes kits (Reflector, Mini-(Red)-Max, etc.) now have release dates of January or February 2010.

"...And so it goes..." :rolleyes:

Bob
well tower is not my source but this news from tower is dishartening to say the least...may i say this news only adds to the debate of what is going on at the big E . i will check with my source and post my findings.

blackshire
11-12-2009, 09:55 PM
I had noticed that in my W*M rounds (same reason - looking for sale engines).

Around here (south of Seattle) there are the "sustainables", lots of Moon Mutts - an ARF starter set for which you have to go to the hobby store to get appropriate engines (1/2A6-4) - and one other starter set, the name of which escapes me. The HiJinks/Rascal RTFs have disappeared (even though they're good flyers and can use at least some of the engines they sell at W*M).

I know when we had Estes folks participating here in the spring they gave the impression that W*M dictated what Estes provided, but it makes no sense (at least to me) to sell combinations in the store that have no chance of working right.

The Fairbanks Wal*Mart sells no mini-motors (only A8-3s, B6-4s, and C6-5s), yet their Moon Mutt starter sets (which require mini motors) sell steadily. The buyers are either getting mini-motors for them at the local hobby shop, ordering them online (less likely), or not bothering to return the starter sets (or being unable to do so after opening them and damaging the packaging, thus making them "un-restockable").

In any event, novice buyers can't be pleased when they get home and discover that they either bought the wrong (18 mm) motors or find that the Moon Mutt starter sets contain no motors. I wonder how many could-have-been repeat customers are turned off by such negative initial model rocketry experiences...

BEC
11-13-2009, 01:19 AM
The W*M engine boxes here that have A8-3s and B6-4s in 'em also have 4-packs of A10-3Ts - but having flown my Moon Mutt on an A (in a REALLY big pasture) I would expect most of them would be lost on the first flight (assuming the 12 inch 'chute comes out of the BT-5....)

The Moon Mutt package does NOT have an A engine recommendation, so one can't find what is recommended without finding an online source or a well-stocked LHS.

FWIW, the MM (mine now has a moderate streamer in it) goes very nicely on a 1/2A6-4T.

But your last point is really what I was getting at.

blackshire
11-13-2009, 01:40 AM
The W*M engine boxes here that have A8-3s and B6-4s in 'em also have 4-packs of A10-3Ts - but having flown my Moon Mutt on an A (in a REALLY big pasture) I would expect most of them would be lost on the first flight (assuming the 12 inch 'chute comes out of the BT-5....)

I'm a bit confused here. The Moon Mutts I have all have BT-20 body tubes.

The Moon Mutt package does NOT have an A engine recommendation, so one can't find what is recommended without finding an online source or a well-stocked LHS.

Mine all list the recommended motors on two adjacent sides of each one's box (1/4A3-3T and 1/2A3-2T). The projected altitude with each motor is also listed on one side (92' [28 m] and 200' [61 m], respectively).

FWIW, the MM (mine now has a moderate streamer in it) goes very nicely on a 1/2A6-4T.

Did you mean 1/2A3-4T? (I haven't looked at an Estes catalog in years, so I wouldn't be stunned if they do offer such a motor now.)

Mark II
11-13-2009, 06:16 PM
The W*M engine boxes here that have A8-3s and B6-4s in 'em also have 4-packs of A10-3Ts - but having flown my Moon Mutt on an A (in a REALLY big pasture) I would expect most of them would be lost on the first flight (assuming the 12 inch 'chute comes out of the BT-5....)

The Moon Mutt package does NOT have an A engine recommendation, so one can't find what is recommended without finding an online source or a well-stocked LHS.

FWIW, the MM (mine now has a moderate streamer in it) goes very nicely on a 1/2A6-4T.

But your last point is really what I was getting at.My Moon Mutt launch set lists the recommended motors in two places on the outside of the box: on one end panel, under "Rocket Specifications," and on one side panel, in the box that lists "Projected Altitude." The two recommended motors are 1/4A3-3T and 1/2A3-2T. The Rocket Specifications list the diameter as 0.74", which is a BT-20, not a BT-5. With an overall length of 10" it should do fine on a 1/2A3-2T. Even though it's not listed, I would go ahead and launch it on an A3-4T as well, but swap the 12" parachute for a streamer, like you did. I don't think I would have any problem fitting a 24" crepe paper streamer into it, and that length ought to be plenty for it. (The Moon Mutt has a plastic fin can.) At 18.4 grams, you could even try a Micromaxx-II in it. (Use a thin Micromaxx launch rod to minimize drag, and a short streamer to insure that it gets out in time.) It might get around 25 feet on that. :D I'll try that with it eventually, at least.

I haven't seen mini-motors at Walmart since the big clearance/cram down last year. When they came back, all they had were the 18mm A, B and C motors. WM used to be my main source for mini-motors, so I hope they get them back in sometime.

MarkII

BEC
11-13-2009, 06:49 PM
Right, BT-20. Sorry. And of course I meant 1/2A3-4T, not 1/2A6-4T as well.

I forget how big the streamer I put in mine is - about 2x18 inches IIRC. The MM's parachute went into my Quest Astra I after the Quest parachute failed to open on the first two flights. Then it migrated to my Dr. Zooch Saturn V after the supplied 'chute there stripped a shroud line (the Astra has a 12 inch Semroc 'chute in it now).

I've flown my MM on 1/2A3-2Ts - the delay is too short. A 4 second delay is probably a bit too long, though.

As I say, the WM motor assortments around here, if they have A's in 'em, also have the A10-3Ts. I've not seen any other 13mm motors at WM.

Mark II
11-13-2009, 07:41 PM
As I say, the WM motor assortments around here, if they have A's in 'em, also have the A10-3Ts. I've not seen any other 13mm motors at WM.That motor would really give it a kick-a__ flight! Just make sure that the fin can halves are glued together really well. :D

MarkII

Rocket Doctor
11-14-2009, 02:30 PM
From what I understand, some of the Classics are being kitted now. I inquired about it and heard soon.

It's better not knowing when they will be out, rathere than to be disappointed, but, they will be coming soon.

You know the old saying "And Christmas is coming too".

hang in there guys.

cmcain
11-16-2009, 08:30 PM
has anybody heard any updated news on the a10-0t or the a8-0? walmart here in lawrence finally started carrying the a10-3t 4 packs again but i havent had a chance to buy many i got frustrated with a lack of small booster motors and started making the trip to argonia once a month to start flying high power instead

j.a.duke
11-16-2009, 10:11 PM
From what I understand, some of the Classics are being kitted now. I inquired about it and heard soon.

It's better not knowing when they will be out, rathere than to be disappointed, but, they will be coming soon.

You know the old saying "And Christmas is coming too".

hang in there guys.

Ken,

Do you have an idea of the channel(s) that these will be released through?

As an aside, I'm guessing they must have at least 30 kits to release based on what's announced already.

If they get 5 or 10 of the them out the door in the next 6 months I'll be poor and happy.

Who needs food-rockets are much more important.

Cheers,
Jon

Mark II
11-17-2009, 03:26 AM
Who needs food-rockets are much more important.

Cheers,
JonWell you know what they say - "Rockets will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of..."

No, wait -- sorry, I was thinking of something else. (From a LONG, LONG time ago!) ;)

MarkII


http://images.absoluteastronomy.com/images/topicimages/f/fa/fabulous_furry_freak_brothers.gif

Nuke Rocketeer
11-17-2009, 07:07 AM
Well you know what they say - "Rockets will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of..."

No, wait -- sorry, I was thinking of something else. (From a LONG, LONG time ago!) ;)

MarkII


http://images.absoluteastronomy.com/images/topicimages/f/fa/fabulous_furry_freak_brothers.gif

:D :chuckle:

I have not seen one of those comics in . :eek: ...25 years...... :eek:

Brings back a lot of old memories........ :p

Rocket Doctor
11-17-2009, 07:38 AM
Ken,

Do you have an idea of the channel(s) that these will be released through?

As an aside, I'm guessing they must have at least 30 kits to release based on what's announced already.

If they get 5 or 10 of the them out the door in the next 6 months I'll be poor and happy.

Who needs food-rockets are much more important.

Cheers,
Jon
Jon

Some of the Classics are being kitted now, but, I don't know which ones or when they will start arriving for purchase, I will check again today.

As far as the booster motors go, the A8-0 and A10-0T are being certified, other than that, I have no time table. I will check on that as well.

RD

Rocket Doctor
11-17-2009, 02:03 PM
From what I understand, the first batch of Classic Series kits will start to appear around March of 2010, more will be coming in the spring and summer, but, the good thing is, they are coming........

3025 Photon Disruptor
3026 Photon Probe
3027 Satellite Interceptor
3027 Hornet

FYI
This is the projected time frame, keep checking back for updates.

rokitflite
11-17-2009, 02:54 PM
I'll believe it when they are hanging on peghooks at my store :rolleyes:

Rocket Doctor
11-17-2009, 06:25 PM
Don't get upset with Estes, this is the projected time frame, subject to change. Actually, I was hesitant to post this info knowing quite well, if the kits don't make it, there will be repercussions.

barone
11-17-2009, 09:32 PM
No....not "no repercussions"......just no purchases...... :eek:

rokitflite
11-17-2009, 10:21 PM
Don't get upset with Estes, this is the projected time frame, subject to change. Actually, I was hesitant to post this info knowing quite well, if the kits don't make it, there will be repercussions.

OK... I did not say I was upset. I just don't believe anything that is said in the hobby community until the product hits the shelf. If I WERE to be upset, you are saying that I should not be upset with the manufacturer that promised the product a year ago? Alright then, I'll be mad with my neighbor down the street because the classic series is way late :rolleyes:.

zog139
11-17-2009, 10:26 PM
Don't get upset with Estes, this is the projected time frame, subject to change. Actually, I was hesitant to post this info knowing quite well, if the kits don't make it, there will be repercussions.

I think this whole thing with Estes reintroducing all of these old models was simply a ploy to draw attention to the company at a time when everyone knows that the company is for sale. Of course if the PR spiked some interest or created some new interests about Estes then that only helps with the sale. Then there is the whole Semroc thing. They stop producing or preparing to release some of the same models that Estes decides to re-release just coincidentally.

Shreadvector
11-18-2009, 09:06 AM
I think this whole thing with Estes reintroducing all of these old models was simply a ploy to draw attention to the company at a time when everyone knows that the company is for sale. Of course if the PR spiked some interest or created some new interests about Estes then that only helps with the sale. Then there is the whole Semroc thing. They stop producing or prepearing to release some of the same models that Estes decides to re-release just coincidentally.

No.

As has been explained many times in the past, here is how it works:

They come up with designs and make business plans.

They present these designs to buyers at trade shows, etc. in an attempt to get sales.

If they generate interest/sales, they go into production.

If there are no buyers for the new products, they either do not go into production or they are revised in some way to see if they are more marketable.

They are a business.

Same applies to all rocket companies and we've seen this with some of the proposed Quest products as well as Estes products in the past.

zog139
11-18-2009, 09:40 AM
[QUOTE=Shreadvector]No.

QUOTE]


I am glad you have corrected me since I am so far off base you come out and say "NO" here in this forum. Everything you said makes sense. However I stand by my original "opinion" and no one including you is going to convince me that I am wrong. Something tells me I am not going to change your opinion either which is fine. :)

Carl@Semroc
11-18-2009, 11:21 AM
I think this whole thing with Estes reintroducing all of these old models was simply a ploy to draw attention to the company at a time when everyone knows that the company is for sale. Of course if the PR spiked some interest or created some new interests about Estes then that only helps with the sale. Then there is the whole Semroc thing. They stop producing or prepearing to release some of the same models that Estes decides to re-release just coincidentally.It was not a coincidence! Back in early 2008, we noticed an increase in interest by Estes-Cox in our products, followed by their spending about $9000 with the US Patent and Trademark Office to register over 30 old names they had previously used and abandoned over twenty years ago. Many of these names were currently in production by us (in commerce with TM notification) which gave us rights to contest their usage. After the 39 models were announced at iHobby in October 2008, we received a letter saying:
"Carl, I'm writing to let you know we have taken some formal steps to protect many Estes and/or Centuri trademarks. Please check the USPTO database at www.uspto.gov. I am writing to ask that you not use any trademarks for which we have applied for protection. For instance we have applied for trademark protection for Nighthawk, Space Plane, and SST-Shuttle. Avoiding the use of those marks should prevent any future difficulties between our companies." As the USPTO worked its way through the registration process, some names were rejected, but others were published for opposition. We notified Estes-Cox that we would not pay the $350 per name to contest their registration, but would reserve the right to contest them later due to our prior use in commerce. We depleted our existing stock to "prevent difficulties" and have turned away many sales since then, telling our customers that Estes-Cox was going to release them within 6 months, so they should wait and buy them from Estes-Cox. Since you cannot register a name for trademark protection without intent to use the name in commerce, we had every reason to believe their release was imminent.

Once a name is published for opposition and is not contested, the USPTO approves the name conditionally upon it being placed in commerce. If a SOU (Statement of Use) is not filed within 6 months proving that a conditionally registered name is actually being used on a product in production, the registrant must pay $150 per name to extend the time each additional 6 months for up to three years total. If a SOU is not provided within the first 6 months or within one of the five allowed 6 month extensions, the registration of the name is considered abandoned and the whole process must start over.

Estes-Cox was granted an allowance for 28 of the registered names in January of 2009 with the condition that they had to be placed in commerce before July 2009 or extensions had to be filed. Since Estes-Cox did not file for extensions before the deadline, the USPTO notified them that all the names were abandoned (again) as of August 2009.

Estes-Cox had asked us to not use any of names that they had applied for protection and we complied, not because we thought they had any right to any names that we had in commerce, but because they are a hundred times bigger than us and we both knew that we could not afford to fight them, even though we would probably prevail if we did. Since they did not put the names in commerce and chose to not pay the additional $150 to extend the statutory time, we have concluded that they must have abandoned their original plan to produce kits bearing those names. Two years ago, they recognized the importance of applying for protection before going to the expense of producing hundreds of thousands of kits that they could not sell because the names were already used in commerce by us, so if they had any intent to produce them, the $150 would be a small price to pay.

About 23 of the names no longer appear on the Tower, Horizon, and eHobbies sites. Since Estes-Cox has generated some interest in those products, we are reconsidering our release and re-release of some kits bearing those abandoned names. Our marketing strategy is much simpler than Estes-Cox and other larger companies. We listen to the customers and try to provide what they want, that the other companies (or former companies) do not or cannot provide. We do not have to serve a market for 100,000 of a kit as Estes-Cox does, but the market for hundreds that they are not able to serve.

GregGleason
11-18-2009, 11:41 AM
Thanks, Carl, for the insightful post. I hope Semroc prospers in 2010 and beyond.

Greg

zog139
11-18-2009, 11:59 AM
Thanks, Carl, for the insightful post. I hope Semroc prospers in 2010 and beyond.

Greg


Ditto - What Greg Said and I wish you and your company the best for the next decade and beyond. The fact that Estes contacted you direct, I would have thought they were going to release the kits in question. I further stand by my opinion and thank you for sharing your information with us.

foose4string
11-18-2009, 12:46 PM
It was not a coincidence! Back in early 2008, we noticed an increase in interest by Estes-Cox in our products, followed by their spending about $9000 with the US Patent and Trademark Office to register over 30 old names they had previously used and abandoned over twenty years ago. Many of these names were currently in production by us (in commerce with TM notification) which gave us rights to contest their usage. After the 39 models were announced at iHobby in October 2008, we received a letter saying:
"Carl, I'm writing to let you know we have taken some formal steps to protect many Estes and/or Centuri trademarks. Please check the USPTO database at www.uspto.gov. I am writing to ask that you not use any trademarks for which we have applied for protection. For instance we have applied for trademark protection for Nighthawk, Space Plane, and SST-Shuttle. Avoiding the use of those marks should prevent any future difficulties between our companies." As the USPTO worked its way through the registration process, some names were rejected, but others were published for opposition. We notified Estes-Cox that we would not pay the $350 per name to contest their registration, but would reserve the right to contest them later due to our prior use in commerce. We depleted our existing stock to "prevent difficulties" and have turned away many sales since then, telling our customers that Estes-Cox was going to release them within 6 months, so they should wait and buy them from Estes-Cox. Since you cannot register a name for trademark protection without intent to use the name in commerce, we had every reason to believe their release was imminent.

Once a name is published for opposition and is not contested, the USPTO approves the name conditionally upon it being placed in commerce. If a SOU (Statement of Use) is not filed within 6 months proving that a conditionally registered name is actually being used on a product in production, the registrant must pay $150 per name to extend the time each additional 6 months for up to three years total. If a SOU is not provided within the first 6 months or within one of the five allowed 6 month extensions, the registration of the name is considered abandoned and the whole process must start over.

Estes-Cox was granted an allowance for 28 of the registered names in January of 2009 with the condition that they had to be placed in commerce before July 2009 or extensions had to be filed. Since Estes-Cox did not file for extensions before the deadline, the USPTO notified them that all the names were abandoned (again) as of August 2009.

Estes-Cox had asked us to not use any of names that they had applied for protection and we complied, not because we thought they had any right to any names that we had in commerce, but because they are a hundred times bigger than us and we both knew that we could not afford to fight them, even though we would probably prevail if we did. Since they did not put the names in commerce and chose to not pay the additional $150 to extend the statutory time, we have concluded that they must have abandoned their original plan to produce kits bearing those names. Two years ago, they recognized the importance of applying for protection before going to the expense of producing hundreds of thousands of kits that they could not sell because the names were already used in commerce by us, so if they had any intent to produce them, the $150 would be a small price to pay.

About 23 of the names no longer appear on the Tower, Horizon, and eHobbies sites. Since Estes-Cox has generated some interest in those products, we are reconsidering our release and re-release of some kits bearing those abandoned names. Our marketing strategy is much simpler than Estes-Cox and other larger companies. We listen to the customers and try to provide what they want, that the other companies (or former companies) do not or cannot provide. We do not have to serve a market for 100,000 of a kit as Estes-Cox does, but the market for hundreds that they are not able to serve.


Sounds like Zog139 wasn't too far off the mark after all. You complied when you really didn't have to. Not contesting it was the right thing to do. Perhaps it had more to do with the legal finance of it all, but in the end, you played fair and gave them what they wanted. It's a shame they feel like they have to play dirty in an effort to (re)gain some credibility. I think they ARE trying win people over and will probably do some of the things they promised(and I hope they do), but I think they have strange way of showing the love around here.

Rocketflyer
11-18-2009, 01:08 PM
Sounds like Zog139 wasn't too far off the mark after all. You complied when you really didn't have to. Not contesting it was the right thing to do. Perhaps it had more to do with the legal finance of it all, but in the end, you played fair and gave them what they wanted. It's a shame they feel like they have to play dirty in an effort to (re)gain some credibility. I think they ARE trying win people over and will probably do some of the things they promised(and I hope they do), but I think they have strange way of showing the love around here.

Agreed. I have to go along with Barone as well. If not for thier motors, then no Estes for me. I'll stick with Quest motors and igniters thank you.

Estes is playing "dirty", and with tactics like this are losing ground and credibilty. If I were Vern, I'd get my name off that company. It isn't living up to it's tradition. Sad, sad sad.

tbzep
11-18-2009, 04:25 PM
No.


:rolleyes:



.

Shreadvector
11-18-2009, 04:56 PM
No.

As has been explained many times in the past, here is how it works:

They come up with designs and make business plans.

They present these designs to buyers at trade shows, etc. in an attempt to get sales.

If they generate interest/sales, they go into production.

If there are no buyers for the new products, they either do not go into production or they are revised in some way to see if they are more marketable.

They are a business.

Same applies to all rocket companies and we've seen this with some of the proposed Quest products as well as Estes products in the past.

obviously i left out the step where they determine to re-issue a previous design or re-use a previous name or trademark and then take the necessary steps to protect their rights. Obviously if they take those steps and then thery do not get orders for those products, they will not put them into production and they may let the protection slip again.

E very company who sells mass market products does this. Markets change. many items never go into production, but they are presented to potential buyers and if there is enough interest they get orders and go into production.

And, of course, there are regulatory issues like the recent toy regulations affecting the plastics and paints.

foose4string
11-18-2009, 05:13 PM
And, of course, there are regulatory issues like the recent toy regulations affecting the plastics and paints.

That was a plausible line......six months ago. :rolleyes:

These new line of kits supposedly have no paint and very minimal amounts of plastic(and the chutes have been changed already). Remember, these were supposed to be balsa and paper to avoid the "regulatory issues"?

For the record, I like the first batch of "Sustainables". Wish they were bigger, but I like where they were going with it!

Shreadvector
11-18-2009, 05:28 PM
That was a plausible line......six months ago. :rolleyes:

These new line of kits supposedly have no paint and very minimal amounts of plastic(and the chutes have been changed already). Remember, these were supposed to be balsa and paper to avoid the "regulatory issues"?

For the record, I like the first batch of "Sustainables". Wish they were bigger, but I like where they were going with it!

They secured and tested sources of plastic that met the regulations.

That, combined with the fact that "kits" that had balsa parts and fins just sat on store shelves and sold at 1/10th the rate or speed of RTF or plastic rockets. (And, yes, it may have helped to actually have boster motors for the 2-stager, but that does not explain the other 3 kits sitting there.)

foose4string
11-18-2009, 05:56 PM
They secured and tested sources of plastic that met the regulations.

That, combined with the fact that "kits" that had balsa parts and fins just sat on store shelves and sold at 1/10th the rate or speed of RTF or plastic rockets. (And, yes, it may have helped to actually have boster motors for the 2-stager, but that does not explain the other 3 kits sitting there.)

That might be true of Walmart sales, but all of the planned kits were not destined for Walmart shelves as I understood. And, we've seen plenty of RTF's and motors on the clearance shelf in years past too, so.....

barone
11-18-2009, 06:04 PM
My experience with helping people select a rocket kit in Walmart or Hobby Lobby..........

I steer them towards the plastic RTF. Why? Because those are the kits with the launch systems. If they've already bought an RTF with the launch system, i try to steer them towards the "build and fly" kits. Using this logic, I can see why there would be so many RTFs sold as compared to "build and fly". With today's need for "instant gratification", the things that have to be worked towards tend to remain on the shelf.....

Shreadvector
11-18-2009, 06:06 PM
That might be true of Walmart sales, but all of the planned kits were not destined for Walmart shelves as I understood. And, we've seen plenty of RTF's and motors on the clearance shelf in years past too, so.....

The recent massive clearance sell-off was the product that had to be off the shelves to comply with the new materials regulations for toys.

The lack of sales of the balsa models can be inferred by the fact that other retailers are now selling the boxed versions of the first 4 sustainables when they were supposed to be a Wal-mart exclusive. Since they did not sell, they had to be sold to someone else. Since there was existing inventory of "kits" for these other retailers, why make more "kits" with balsa parts until there was some sign they would actually sell off?

Unless you want to run a company into the ground. Then make lots of everything that people on forums tell you to make and if it does not sell, make even more of them!

:rolleyes:

Mark II
11-18-2009, 06:15 PM
Would Barry or Mike describe Estes-Cox's process the following way?


As has been explained many times in the past, here is how it works:

They come up with designs and make business plans.

They present these designs to buyers at trade shows, etc. in an attempt to get sales.

If they generate interest/sales, they go into production.

If there are no buyers for the new products, they either do not go into production or they are revised in some way to see if they are more marketable.If the answer is yes, then it stands in stark contrast to this next quote:

Our marketing strategy is much simpler than Estes-Cox and other larger companies. We listen to the customers and try to provide what they want, that the other companies (or former companies) do not or cannot provide. We do not have to serve a market for 100,000 of a kit as Estes-Cox does, but the market for hundreds that they are not able to serve.I know which approach the members of this forum (including me) prefer, but, given the very large difference in scale of production and method of distribution of the first company, is the their approach viable? Do any other companies in the hobby industry operate this way?

BTW, I also like the Sustainables line, as well as the Moon Mutt Launch Set. I hope that E-C releases more kits along those lines.

MarkII

Mark II
11-18-2009, 06:37 PM
The lack of sales of the balsa models can be inferred by the fact that other retailers are now selling the boxed versions of the first 4 sustainables when they were supposed to be a Wal-mart exclusive. Since they did not sell, they had to be sold to someone else. Since there was existing inventory of "kits" for these other retailers, why make more "kits" with balsa parts until there was some sign they would actually sell off?A different take on this would be that since the "Classics" line has been so delayed, E-C diverted some of their Sustainables production to hobby shops and other retailers, in order to give them some new product to sell.

BTW, I haven't seen any Sustainables at Michael's or at my regional hobby shop. Only at Walmart.

Don makes a very good point. Since the sales of beginner launch sets usually include RTF models, then the sales figures of RTF's are skewed accordingly. I had a hard time finding the Moon Mutt LS; I had to go to four different WM's before I located one. But that makes sense, because it, too, is a starter set. (Even though I couldn't find mini engines for it there, that didn't necessarily mean the WM wasn't carrying them.) And at every Walmart that I have been to, right next to the not-overwhelming numbers of Sustainables kits on the shelves were plenty of boxes of Rascal and Hi-Jinks RTF models. OTOH, starter launch sets in general, and not just the MM, were scarce.

MarkII

Rocket Doctor
11-18-2009, 07:03 PM
No.

As has been explained many times in the past, here is how it works:

They come up with designs and make business plans.

They present these designs to buyers at trade shows, etc. in an attempt to get sales.

If they generate interest/sales, they go into production.

If there are no buyers for the new products, they either do not go into production or they are revised in some way to see if they are more marketable.

They are a business.

Same applies to all rocket companies and we've seen this with some of the proposed Quest products as well as Estes products in the past.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In My Opinion


As it was pointed out by Shrox referring to Quest products that were announced but haven't yet made it to the marketplace, there are behind the scenes circumstances that occur, not know to the general public why proposed items don't come out on time or have to be delayed.

If a company announces a product, and, it doesen't make it to market at that particular time, there must be a reason.

But, I feel, if that particular company has work-in-process, then, they are complying to the regulations as put forth with any government regulations.

In my opinion, I think everyone will be surprised as to what will transpire in the near future.

In the case of Estes, in my opinion, they need not bring out tons of kits inorder to attract a buyer, from what I understand, they have had interested parties inquire many times over the years.

Also , remember, Estes produces the most motors, and, without those motors, you can have all of the rocket companies in the world , but, they (rockets) would be useless, the motors are the key.

I just hope that all model rocket companies can get along now and in the future, theree is plenty of customers to go around for everyone, and bickering about it will not solve anything.

We haven't celebrated our 51st year by not getting along, this is my personal opinion.

We all should be focusing our enegy to bring more members into the flock and to get more NAR sections going.

foose4string
11-18-2009, 08:53 PM
The lack of sales of the balsa models can be inferred by the fact that other retailers are now selling the boxed versions of the first 4 sustainables when they were supposed to be a Wal-mart exclusive. Since they did not sell, they had to be sold to someone else. Since there was existing inventory of "kits" for these other retailers, why make more "kits" with balsa parts until there was some sign they would actually sell off?


:rolleyes:


How can one argue with that? :rolleyes: Look, I'm not trying to cast stones...I want Estes around. They make a mighty fine motor and have churned out some decent kits over the years. But we(the hobbyist) are a thorn in their side. I think they've made that perfectly clear. Sure, they throw us a bone from time to time, to shut us up for a while, but I know where their loyalty is.

BTW, I've seen Estes product on clearance every year....it wasn't exclusive to last year....or Walmart for that matter.

Carl@Semroc
11-18-2009, 09:12 PM
...I just hope that all model rocket companies can get along now and in the future, theree is plenty of customers to go around for everyone, and bickering about it will not solve anything.Goodness, gracious!

I don't think this is a matter of not getting along. We get along with every other model rocket company, even Estes-Cox. We have supplied parts, support, information, and encouragement to over twenty other model rocket manufacturers, some larger and many smaller than us. We want all the other manufacturers to be successful because that means the market is growing.

When a small group of people asked us years ago to produce the parts for the Centuri Laser-X, we were amazed that Estes-Cox or some other company was not reproducing such a great kit. We started producing our version of the original kit, not to make Estes-Cox upset, but to fulfill a market demand that we felt was not being addressed. Now, six years later with an average of 3 per week sold, I understand why they left it for us to do. :) For us it has been wildly successful; most of our other kits sell less than one per week. For Estes-Cox, Quest, or any other large company, that would be dismal. I am sure Estes-Cox, and probably Quest, have made more profit on our most successful kits by providing engines for them than we made selling the kits.

If I have posted anything that has been taken to be disparaging toward Estes-Cox or any other manufacturer, I did not mean it that way. Our success depends on them to drive the market and produce a massive amount of engines. We are content to fill in the gaps around the edges and try to provide a little excitement where we think it is needed. We count all the other manufacturers that we know to be among our dearest friends.

If one of our customers wants a Nighthawk, we will send him to Estes-Cox if they produce it or we will try to help him get the parts to recreate one or provide a kit if no one else is producing it. The important point is that he will be able to fly a model that he remembers fondly from his youth. Either way, that is good for us. It is also good for Estes-Cox and it is good for the hobby, because it will probably not be the last model rocket that he flies.

barone
11-19-2009, 08:59 AM
Carl,

I too was taken aback by the comment about manufacturers getting along. No where on this forum (except for a thread that was pulled) have I read anything to indicate that the manufacturers don't get along.

I think (or hope) that comment was more aimed at the consumer of products from a company that consistently announces a line of models and consistently disappoints its customers by not producing that line. Sure, there are probably numerous "behind-the-scenes" reasons why those products aren't making it to the market, but the lack of resubmitting for the name pretty much says they aren't going to be produced, no matter what is going on behind the scenes.

As an owner of at least one of nearly every kit Semroc has produced, thank you for sticking with us.

And, as a flyer of model rockets, thank you Estes, Quest, Aerotech and Apogee for supplying the motors we need to make those kits fly.

Rocket Doctor
11-19-2009, 09:07 AM
In my opinion

You may think that I am biased towards Estes, but, really I'm not, but I have seen over and over again that so much negative comments have been made toward Estes unfounded. And yes, Ihave had made comments as well, for the benefit of the hobbyists. And have cought hell over it in the process.

But, to make a blanket statement as to why certain kits did or didn't come out is wrong. Like Shrox had said, there are situation behind the scenes why things don't happen as planned.

I think all companies big and small have their own problems with introducing and producing kits, for whatevere reasons.

The larger the company the more problems you encounter because of the shear volume.

And a decision of producing kits from their past is a good idea, they have the prints, parts lists and those who have worked on those project from the past.

To be creative, you need to introduce new kits as well as sprinkling in some from the past.
You could never have a "new" old kit, that's not possible, the materials are just not availabe as was the case 40 - 50 years ago.

When Estes is sold, who will be the one to blame for things right or wrong, we don't have a clue who the new owner or owners might be and we don't know how receptive they might be to constructive criticism being made by anyone.

Who knows, they also might be looking at all of the rocket forums and getting a picture of what is going on, both positive and negative.

And. my comments are my personal opinion and are not reflective of anyone else............

motley16
11-19-2009, 09:02 PM
all this talk will go away if estes ever releases the kits they said were comming out. for now we will all talk and some of the talk is going to be negative. some of us are very upset at the delays, we have the funds the time and time comes and no product. that in turn makes us upset and we vent. i can live with an honest answer to why we wait and nothing happens. but stories that do not add up just make things bad. treat us fairly, honestly that is all we ask.

Rocket Doctor
11-20-2009, 09:20 AM
In my opinion

I am ceertainly NOT the spokesperson for Estes, the question was asked about the Classic Series kits, the kit names were given and a projected date.

This has absolutely nothing to do with me, for whatever reasons, .

I don't think the world will be coming to a grinding halt because of kits that haven't arrived yet.

Other companies have promised kits and motors as well, but, haven't delivered, but, I don't see the degree of negativity directed against those other companies, and I ask WHY?

We all are here to enjoy the hobby and not get so upset about some carboard tubes and balsa, it's just not worth it and life is too darn short.

GregGleason
11-20-2009, 09:27 AM
... and life is too darn short.



I appreciate that perspective. The older I get, the more aware I am of that truth. You can only build a certain amount of rockets in your life. It is a hobby (one that I greatly treasure), but a hobby nonetheless.

Greg

Vanel
11-20-2009, 11:49 AM
In my opinion
Other companies have promised kits and motors as well, but, haven't delivered, but, I don't see the degree of negativity directed against those other companies, and I ask WHY?


Because Estes, for the past several years, has promised many things and delivered very few. It's one thing for an occasional slip or oops; totally different picture when the delays and no shows are the norm, rather than the exception. We see no product, just a lot of excuses.

Rocket Doctor
11-20-2009, 03:46 PM
As I have stated above, life is too short for us to worry about if kits are coming out, if their not coming out and such things.

I think we should focus on the economy, our families, our jobs and the future. Worrying about rockets and keep dwelling upon it does nothing except raise your blood pressure, certainly not worth it.

If this is our main focus in life, then, in my opinion, we have way too time on our hands.

You can always make your own clone.........

This subject have been around so long, it's like beating a dead horse, it solves nothing.

gpoehlein
11-20-2009, 05:29 PM
I agree with RD - there is no call for all the negativity and acrimony. We all know of the problems that the government has imposed on not only our industry but on the toy industry in general. And, like it or not, unlike most of the smaller manufacturers we like to frequent, Estes has positioned themselves as a toy manufacturer rather than a hobby company. If they feel that is what they need to do to survive in a world of big box stores then so be it. They have to deal with the lead regulations. Funny thing - the same people who are so negative about Estes now were the same ones griping long and loud about government intervention in our hobby (and into life in general).

On the other hand, Estes HAS brought out some new kits in the last few months. The sustainables are really nice kits with some nice retro parts (balsa nose cones, clear payload sections, etc.) So the parachutes are all white (the printing ink has low levels of lead) and the decals might be a bit thin. There have been some other new kits out too - the Mongoose is a nice re-issue.

Two other observations:

1) Some people like to put others (people, companies, etc.) on pedestals just so they can knock them off.

2) Some people wouldn't be happy if you promised them a shiny new nickel and instead gave them a $20 gold piece.

Greg

barone
11-20-2009, 05:39 PM
As I have stated above, life is too short for us to worry about if kits are coming out, if their not coming out and such things.

I think we should focus on the economy, our families, our jobs and the future. Worrying about rockets and keep dwelling upon it does nothing except raise your blood pressure, certainly not worth it.

If this is our main focus in life, then, in my opinion, we have way too time on our hands.

You can always make your own clone.........

This subject have been around so long, it's like beating a dead horse, it solves nothing.
In my opinion......

Hmmmmm............Now we should not be concerned about a hobby we enjoy?
Hmmmmm............I guess we shouldn't use a forum to vent frustrations over events (or in this case lack of events)?
Hmmmmm............If I do any of this, I have too much time on my hands?
Hmmmmm............I wonder, since I do spend money on a hobby that I enjoy and care about, do you think I probably have too much money also?
Hmmmmm............I wonder at what point does someone loose their right to voice an opinion, spend their time as they see fit, spend their money as they see fit? When someone else tells them they are wrong in how they do it?

You're right Ken. Life is too short for you to worry so much about what affects the rest of us.

In my opinion.

Rocket Doctor
11-20-2009, 06:20 PM
In my opinion......

Hmmmmm............Now we should not be concerned about a hobby we enjoy?
Hmmmmm............I guess we shouldn't use a forum to vent frustrations over events (or in this case lack of events)?
Hmmmmm............If I do any of this, I have too much time on my hands?
Hmmmmm............I wonder, since I do spend money on a hobby that I enjoy and care about, do you think I probably have too much money also?
Hmmmmm............I wonder at what point does someone loose their right to voice an opinion, spend their time as they see fit, spend their money as they see fit? When someone else tells them they are wrong in how they do it?

You're right Ken. Life is too short for you to worry so much about what affects the rest of us.

In my opinion.


You and everyone else on this forum and other forums have the right to his or her own opinions.

But, you also have a choice, send a message, if you don't like the way a particular company id doing business, don't buy their products.

Constant complaining about the lack of kits coming out will not solve anything for anyone, but, yes indeed, you have your right to you opinion, I agree on that.


But, on the other hand, there has been other companies that have made promises and haven't delivered, and, I don't see the constant berage against those companies as in the case of Estes.

I have been using Estes products for the past 45 years now, on both sides of the fence, but, I'm not going to loose sleep over the lack of kits or motors, it's just not worth it.

Like I said, you have options, buy from another vendor, clone you own or just wait it out.

I'm curious, what have you done to promote the hobby, recruited new members, started a club, participated in a hobby shop program. You need not be visable to promote the hobby and make a difference for the benefit of the hobby .

Rocket Doctor
11-20-2009, 06:22 PM
I agree with RD - there is no call for all the negativity and acrimony. We all know of the problems that the government has imposed on not only our industry but on the toy industry in general. And, like it or not, unlike most of the smaller manufacturers we like to frequent, Estes has positioned themselves as a toy manufacturer rather than a hobby company. If they feel that is what they need to do to survive in a world of big box stores then so be it. They have to deal with the lead regulations. Funny thing - the same people who are so negative about Estes now were the same ones griping long and loud about government intervention in our hobby (and into life in general).

On the other hand, Estes HAS brought out some new kits in the last few months. The sustainables are really nice kits with some nice retro parts (balsa nose cones, clear payload sections, etc.) So the parachutes are all white (the printing ink has low levels of lead) and the decals might be a bit thin. There have been some other new kits out too - the Mongoose is a nice re-issue.

Two other observations:

1) Some people like to put others (people, companies, etc.) on pedestals just so they can knock them off.

2) Some people wouldn't be happy if you promised them a shiny new nickel and instead gave them a $20 gold piece.

Greg


Greg

Amen......God Bless You

Ken

Bill
11-20-2009, 06:35 PM
Like I said, you have options, buy from another vendor, clone you own or just wait it out.



I wish I could clone an A10-0T and the biggie, fly it at a sanctioned launch...


Bill

blackshire
11-20-2009, 06:52 PM
Provided that you only used them yourself and not at group launches, A10-0T clones could be made using sugar/KNO3 propellant, water putty for the nozzles, and motor cases made of convolutely-wound gummed wrapping paper.

Rocket Doctor
11-20-2009, 06:53 PM
I wish I could clone an A10-0T and the biggie, fly it at a sanctioned launch...


Bill


B-14's and C5's as well.......anyone out there making motors ???

Did you mean the Birdie?

nvrocketeer
11-20-2009, 07:36 PM
I'm a little guilty of bad-mouthing Estes myself lately, for which I'm going to have to take myself to task and speak a public apology before the people who heard me (namely, my 4-H club).

Yes, I'm a little sad that Estes isn't as responsive as I could wish. Yes, I think it's irresponsible to announce a product and not deliver in a timely way. But both those behaviors are totally familiar and common across all businesses everywhere. I've done it myself. Doesn't make it right ... doesn't mean I have to like it ... even when I'm the culprit ... but that's the reality. I just have to accept that, and retract previous statements that failed to honor that reality, and respect that what Estes -does- (delivering zillions of motors and grillions of kits and gear around the world) should probably be more important to me than what they don't do.

Okay, now that I've got that understood, what do I do going forward? I'll probably just build whatever interests me from whatever's on the market now, and fly it with whatever appropriate motor types are around. It's not like I'm suffering for lack of choices! I've got projects to last me well into next year and beyond, and none of them hinge on any manufacturer's promise.

So that works for me, and I can just be about my business. You? Sorry, I'm not you. You'll have to work out your own solution, one that suits your temperament and needs.

Quick shout-out to Poehlein: Yes, the new Mongoose is rather nice. I hope to be able to fly it someday before the end of the year, when weather and temperature permit. My last NARTREK Bronze flight!

barone
11-20-2009, 08:00 PM
You and everyone else on this forum and other forums have the right to his or her own opinions.

But, you also have a choice, send a message, if you don't like the way a particular company id doing business, don't buy their products.

Constant complaining about the lack of kits coming out will not solve anything for anyone, but, yes indeed, you have your right to you opinion, I agree on that.


But, on the other hand, there has been other companies that have made promises and haven't delivered, and, I don't see the constant berage against those companies as in the case of Estes.

I have been using Estes products for the past 45 years now, on both sides of the fence, but, I'm not going to loose sleep over the lack of kits or motors, it's just not worth it.

Like I said, you have options, buy from another vendor, clone you own or just wait it out.

I'm curious, what have you done to promote the hobby, recruited new members, started a club, participated in a hobby shop program. You need not be visable to promote the hobby and make a difference for the benefit of the hobby .
Ken,

Either I missed the point of your original post or you've missed the point of mine. No where in my post did I "bash" or complain about any company. However, I said that you have no right to tell other members of this forum that they shouldn't voice their opinion, decide how they should spend their time or how important their hobby is to them. Go back and read your post I quoted.

I doubt there are many folks on this forum loosing sleep over anything related to our hobby (well, okay, I do sometimes when I'm getting ready for a competition with Launch Crue.... :D ). But, there are things that just frustrate people and this forum gives them a chance to vent that frustration. Call it "Estes Bashing" if you want. But you'll see other posts concerning Semroc and the Saturn V, Quest and the 24mm Fs, Sherri's HotRockets and the, well, I digress.

The point is, if you're tired of it all, don't read the posts. I don't read post that I particularly don't care for. I've even got some posters in my ignore list because I place no value upon anything they post. But I sure don't go around telling others not to read posts. It's their opinions, it's their time, it's their hobby. Each person enjoys each aspect the way they want to. I don't go around telling people they need to get over it. When they're over it, the post will stop.

As for what I've done to promote the hobby........obviously, not enough..... :(

Mark II
11-20-2009, 09:21 PM
Several important points to remember here. First, Estes-Cox is not the only source of kits for hobbyists by a long shot. And they do have a lot of kits in active production now. There are many great companies out there that are producing outstanding kits. It's a really great time to be involved in model rocketry; we are all very fortunate. So if Estes-Cox is experiencing delays in getting out some previously announced new kits, our segment of the market is hardly being deprived. Hey, if they need more time to get some new kits to market, that's OK with me; I can wait. In the meantime, I have other kits to buy, including other Estes kits that already are in the retail channel. Remember, this thread is supposed to be about new Estes motors, after all. I will continue to need the motors that Estes produces for the happily foreseeable future. I'm not going anywhere - I'll still be here and I will still be shopping for new items a year from now or whenever the new products reach the stores. Really, it's no big deal. I'll give the new stuff serious consideration whenever it reaches me. Any unforeseen delays won't change that.

MarkII

Rocket Doctor
11-21-2009, 08:40 AM
Ken,

Either I missed the point of your original post or you've missed the point of mine. No where in my post did I "bash" or complain about any company. However, I said that you have no right to tell other members of this forum that they shouldn't voice their opinion, decide how they should spend their time or how important their hobby is to them. Go back and read your post I quoted.

I doubt there are many folks on this forum loosing sleep over anything related to our hobby (well, okay, I do sometimes when I'm getting ready for a competition with Launch Crue.... :D ). But, there are things that just frustrate people and this forum gives them a chance to vent that frustration. Call it "Estes Bashing" if you want. But you'll see other posts concerning Semroc and the Saturn V, Quest and the 24mm Fs, Sherri's HotRockets and the, well, I digress.

The point is, if you're tired of it all, don't read the posts. I don't read post that I particularly don't care for. I've even got some posters in my ignore list because I place no value upon anything they post. But I sure don't go around telling others not to read posts. It's their opinions, it's their time, it's their hobby. Each person enjoys each aspect the way they want to. I don't go around telling people they need to get over it. When they're over it, the post will stop.

As for what I've done to promote the hobby........obviously, not enough..... :(


Don

My point is, I brought to the forum the names of four rockets, whenever they get here, we will have to live with that.

There is nothing we can do about it, if they come out fine and if they dont oh well.

I guess we both missed each others point.

All of us here on the forum have the right to our own opinions, that what is good about it.

In these hard economic times I just hope that the hobby can make it through another 50 years.

Ken

Rocket Doctor
11-21-2009, 08:41 AM
I wish I could clone an A10-0T and the biggie, fly it at a sanctioned launch...


Bill


Please, don;t try to clone motors, this is not being suggested here, leave the motor manufacturing up to the professionals and let's keep our hobby SAFE.

Rocket Doctor
11-21-2009, 08:43 AM
Provided that you only used them yourself and not at group launches, A10-0T clones could be made using sugar/KNO3 propellant, clay for the nozzles, and motor cases made of convolutely-wound gummed wrapping paper.


NO, NO, NO don't even try to clone motors, leave that up to the professionals, let's keep our hobby SAFE.

blackshire
11-21-2009, 02:29 PM
NO, NO, NO don't even try to clone motors, leave that up to the professionals, let's keep our hobby SAFE.

...Which is why I included the provision about only using them if flying by oneself. Where I live, there are places I can fly rockets where there are no people or buildings anywhere within a 10 mile radius, and there are others who have such isolated launch sites.

While I'm not particularly interested in making sugar propellant A10-0T clones myself (sugar rocket motors are labor-intensive to make, even in batches of 20 or so, see: http://balloons.space.edu/ndra/nickle.html ), small sugar motors aren't particularly dangerous to either make or use, although it takes some practice to get uniform impulse in a batch of the motors. They can be made as zero-delay booster motors or have time delays and ejection charges.

Although they are core burners (by necessity, as the sugar propellant has a rather low specific impulse), they can be electrically ignited just like black powder motors. A sugar A10-0T CATO is no worse than a black powder A10-0T CATO, except for the possible emotional impact of watching the extra "sweat equity" that the maker invested in producing the motor go up in smoke.

There is nothing wrong with informed and prudently cautious adults making small rocket motors, especially non-black powder ones such as sugar motors. After all, if Orville Carlisle had not experimented with making his own rocket motors (and black powder ones, at that!), would our hobby ever have come into being?

Bill
11-22-2009, 02:27 PM
Please, don;t try to clone motors, this is not being suggested here, leave the motor manufacturing up to the professionals and let's keep our hobby SAFE.

My comment was in response to your statement:

You can always make your own clone.........

This subject have been around so long, it's like beating a dead horse, it solves nothing.

Though I agree that this horse has probably been processed into glue and used to build rockets by now.

I would never consider making my own black powder motors. I value my fingers and eyes too much to take that risk. However, I can forsee a day when we can cast small motors using a potassium perchlorate mixture (a NAR EX program?). You might say that I look forward to the day when we can shout, "I love the smell of PP in the morning!" :-)


Bill

blackshire
11-22-2009, 08:41 PM
I would never consider making my own black powder motors. I value my fingers and eyes too much to take that risk. However, I can forsee a day when we can cast small motors using a potassium perchlorate mixture (a NAR EX program?). You might say that I look forward to the day when we can shout, "I love the smell of PP in the morning!" :-)


Bill

An intriguing idea! This is similar to a concept Aerojet had in the 1960s for huge rocket motors powered by a gelled solid propellant that would be loaded at the launch pad. To avoid the problems of moving multi-million pound loaded solid propellant stages, they proposed moving and stacking only the empty cases.

At the launch pad, tanker trucks containing gelled solid propellant would pump it into the launch vehicle's motor cases and the propellant would cure in the motors at the pad. I don't recall how they proposed to remove the mandrels that formed the motors' grain voids. They might have been considering using low-melting point alloys or some kind of frangible, thin-walled mandrel material.

For model rocket use, a potassium perchlorate/RTV (Room Temperature Vulcanizing) liquid rubber mixture could be supplied in plastic applicator tubes (similar to caulking gun cartridges), with replaceable plastic static mixer tips on the applicator gun. If the propellant is loaded into cardboard sleeves for installation in reloadable motor cases, a set of different reusable mandrels could be supplied to permit the user to tailor the grain void shapes and thus the thrust/time characteristics of the motors.