New design possibility for a kit

[Feyd]

Hello All -

I've got a rocket design that works out well in RockSim9 and I think it'd be a cool kit to build and fly. It's loosely based on the Semroc Hybdra VII and the Sunward Skybender. It's a 6-engine cluster using 24mm engines and dual ejection (one rearward).

I call it Six-Shooter. Problem is, I need help with the design of the decals and any advice on marketing. It'd be expensive, though! Overall length is 61.5", it weighs 27.6 oz without engines (41.3 oz with size E9s), and in Rocksim it flies to 1468' on six E-9s.

I haven't built it yet because I don't have all the parts. Yet.

Is anyone interested in helping bring this kit to market?

Thanks!

- Dale

[Der Red Max]

...in Rocksim it flies to 1468' on six E-9s.Problem is you'll need Level 1 Cert. to launch it since anything over 3 E9's is considered high power.
I don't know any Level 1 folk who enjoy launching E9 clusters
- especially @ $30 bucks/launch.

[CPMcGraw]

Hello All -

I've got a rocket design that works out well in RockSim9 and I think it'd be a cool kit to build and fly. It's loosely based on the Semroc Hybdra VII and the Sunward Skybender. It's a 6-engine cluster using 24mm engines and dual ejection (one rearward).

I call it Six-Shooter. Problem is, I need help with the design of the decals and any advice on marketing. It'd be expensive, though! Overall length is 61.5", it weighs 27.6 oz without engines (41.3 oz with size E9s), and in Rocksim it flies to 1468' on six E-9s.

I haven't built it yet because I don't have all the parts. Yet.

Is anyone interested in helping bring this kit to market?

Thanks!

- Dale

FWIW, One of our core designers (James Pierson) has a design somewhere here on BARCLONE already named "Six Shooter", and it has passed the flight-test stage. Pretty cool, too. At apogee, it drops six pods with streamers and looks like a Delta dropping its solids.

If we all knew how to make and sell rocket kits - and make a profit from it - we'd be doing it. James and I collectively have probably 600 out of the 700 plus designs posted here, but neither of us are producing kits. I can attest to this one fact: It takes more time and more discipline to create ONE set of instructions for a kit than it does to create FIFTY or ONE HUNDRED designs. Ask CenturiGuy about his experience with the instructions for the SEMROC release "Tau Zero", and he'll give you a play-by-play of the procedure... :o

Best advice I can offer is to throw out as many designs as you can create (BARCLONE is a great place to do this) and see what design elements the 'experts' here like. Keep a journal, or at least a good copy of your designs, for reference. Also, since you mentioned a SEMROC design as being an inspiration for your model, why not ask the designer himself about his experiences in manufacturing and selling? Carl is a most welcome member of Ye Olde, and if anyone here has insight on the ups and downs of making a business out of a hobby, Carl is at the top of the list. And he doesn't bite, either!

There are other manufacturers represented here, too, and each of them can provide their own unique perspective into the business. I listen to all of them...

[CenturiGuy]

I can attest to this one fact: It takes more time and more discipline to create ONE set of instructions for a kit than it does to create FIFTY or ONE HUNDRED designs. Ask CenturiGuy about his experience with the instructions for the SEMROC release "Tau Zero", and he'll give you a play-by-play of the procedure... :o If I were going to do it all over again (not that I'm officially planning to :rolleyes: ), I wouldn't start completely from scratch. I'd look at a bunch of different Semroc instruction booklets and borrow illustrations, writing, etc., that Carl's already done, and incorporate those.


Best advice I can offer is to throw out as many designs as you can create (BARCLONE is a great place to do this) and see what design elements the 'experts' here like. Keep a journal, or at least a good copy of your designs, for reference. I agree wholeheartedly with Craig. Post your designs here, get some good feedback, and figure out what works. MAKE SURE YOUR ROCKET'S *STABLE!* Also make sure there's plenty of room for an adequate recovery system so your design (no matter *how* cool-looking it is!) doesn't smash itself to pieces when it hits the ground.


Also, since you mentioned a SEMROC design as being an inspiration for your model, why not ask the designer himself about his experiences in manufacturing and selling? Carl is a most welcome member of Ye Olde, and if anyone here has insight on the ups and downs of making a business out of a hobby, Carl is at the top of the list. And he doesn't bite, either!Carl McLawhorn (Carl@Semroc) is a great guy, and he's more than happy to answer questions.

(reminiscing) Why just last night, I was asking him about an EM-115-175-3F engine mount... ;) :D


You've come to the right place. We're here to help.

"It is ours to serve."


Cheers,

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

I agree wholeheartedly with Craig. Post your designs here, get some good feedback, and figure out what works. MAKE SURE YOUR ROCKET'S *STABLE!* Also make sure there's plenty of room for an adequate recovery system so your design (no matter *how* cool-looking it is!) doesn't smash itself to pieces when it hits the ground.


Stability is *SO* over-rated. :rolleyes:

[Carl@Semroc]

Stability is *SO* over-rated. :rolleyes:It only comes into play for less than 1 or 2 seconds of the life of the rocket! But people tend to remember those more than the sanding part.

[tbzep]

It only comes into play for less than 1 or 2 seconds of the life of the rocket! But people tend to remember those more than the sanding part.

Not me. I never forget the sanding. http://planetsmilies.net/angry-smiley-7996.gif

[BEC]

It only comes into play for less than 1 or 2 seconds of the life of the rocket! But people tend to remember those more than the sanding part.

:D:D:D

[CenturiGuy]

Stability is *SO* over-rated. :rolleyes:Bill, I was talking about *rockets.* :eek: :rolleyes:


Not our shared mental states. :o :cool:

.

[harsas]

Problem is you'll need Level 1 Cert. to launch it since anything over 3 E9's is considered high power.
I don't know any Level 1 folk who enjoy launching E9 clusters
- especially @ $30 bucks/launch.


Only because you don't know me.....
:p

[Feyd]

Thanks all for your comments. I've been thinking about this design all day (I was bored don't you know) and I'm seriously considering taking it down to 18mm engines. They're cheaper and I'm not ready to try certification yet.

Also, I've written to three rocket companies about the rocket. So far two have responded. Once I get the design solidified I'll post an update.

Thanks again!

[Feyd]

No update on the Six-Shooter (I'm redesigning) but I do have something else I'm currently building.

I call it the "Sky Breaker" - terrible name I know - but it's essentially a double-length Sunward SkyBender. It'll be about 70" tall and will fly on three D12-5s. I've run it in Rocksim and it says "overstable" and flies to almost 1000 ft.

As soon as I get it built and flown I'll post pictures.

I'd appreciate any thoughts.

[mycrofte]

Stability?!?

I consider whirling loops of death part of the design process...

[CPMcGraw]

No update on the Six-Shooter (I'm redesigning) but I do have something else I'm currently building.

I call it the "Sky Breaker" - terrible name I know - but it's essentially a double-length Sunward SkyBender. It'll be about 70" tall and will fly on three D12-5s. I've run it in Rocksim and it says "overstable" and flies to almost 1000 ft.

As soon as I get it built and flown I'll post pictures.

I'd appreciate any thoughts.

Feyd,

I'm looking the "Sky Breaker" design over, and I've altered the file a bit based on what your 2D line drawing indicated. I hope I'm reading this right - The model is supposed to have the three engine tubes exposed between the forward and aft sections, similar to the Custom Landviper. However, RockSim wasn't behaving properly and was showing a solid tube where it should have been just a "filler".

The new drawing rectifies the problem with a pod for the aft section, and three continuous 36.5" BT-50's for the engine tubes. I included a pair of couplers in each tube to trim out the weight (see the new file).

Either you're a time-tested expert in rocket design and just keeping it a secret, or you're one of the luckiest guesstimators I've seen yet! This new design hits the ULTIMATE SWEET SPOTS for each of the engine combinations in a way I've never experienced by ANY design before.

Also, I trimmed out some mass from the nose cone by reducing the wall thickness down to 0.05", which seems more likely than having it 0.125" thick. This brought the calculated weight down to just under your 'user override' weight. It's still a thick-skinned nose cone.

Specs:

Length: 70.15"
Diameter: 2.6" (BT-80)
Weight: 3.74 oz (empty)
Fin Span: 10.60"


(3) A8-3.........193'......Dv <2 FPS......28" launch guide required
(3) B6-4.........396'......Dv <3 FPS......25" launch guide required
(3) C6-5.........759'......Dv <3 FPS......25" launch guide required
(3) D12-5.......1120'......Dv <1 FPS......26" launch guide required
(3) E9-6........1697'......Dv <1 FPS......31" launch guide required
(3) E15W-7......2087'......Dv <3 FPS......13" launch guide required
(3) F21W-8......2391'......Dv <1 FPS......10" launch guide required


Keep tossing up ideas like this, and you'll get recognized very quickly!

[Feyd]

Well I've been dreaming up rocket ideas for quite a long time and even entered the Estes contests a *really long time ago* (never won anything) but I wouldn't call myself anything like time-tested :-)

Essentially I took the Sunward Skybender and doubled everything so I had a really good base to start with. My Skybender has flown a couple of times and I really like it alot. I've built most of the new rocket already, just need to finish the top and cut out the fins. Then paint.

I do have a question though.... how far does an ejection charge travel? The rocket is about 5' 8" tall. Since there are several regular model rockets out there that are much taller, I assume I won't have a problem with the ejection charge ejecting the parachute. I was thinking of putting a BT-80 baffle in there, but wasn't sure if it was necessary.

Thanks!

[CPMcGraw]

Well I've been dreaming up rocket ideas for quite a long time and even entered the Estes contests a *really long time ago* (never won anything) but I wouldn't call myself anything like time-tested :-)

Essentially I took the Sunward Skybender and doubled everything so I had a really good base to start with. My Skybender has flown a couple of times and I really like it alot. I've built most of the new rocket already, just need to finish the top and cut out the fins. Then paint.

I do have a question though.... how far does an ejection charge travel? The rocket is about 5' 8" tall. Since there are several regular model rockets out there that are much taller, I assume I won't have a problem with the ejection charge ejecting the parachute. I was thinking of putting a BT-80 baffle in there, but wasn't sure if it was necessary.

Thanks!

If you were trying to get by on just one charge, you might be in trouble. But you have three charges going off in this design. It ***should*** be enough to pressurize the tube and toss the laundry. Also, since the model has such a low Dv, the aerodynamic resistance to the ejection is much less. This is one of the important reasons we stress keeping the Dv (Velocity at Deployment) as low as possible. You did good, Feyd! All of these combinations are less than 5 FPS at deployment, meaning it's just barely moving when it blows. Little to no resistance at all.

Baffles have their place, but so does a good handful of dog barf (shredded newspaper insulation)...

Keep up the design work!

[Feyd]

Thanks.

One final problem / request. I need to put 5 fins on the BT-80 at the base of the Sky Breaker. Does anyone have a template/wrap I can use? Maybe a location where such things are kept?

Almost ready for paint!

[CPMcGraw]

Thanks.

One final problem / request. I need to put 5 fins on the BT-80 at the base of the Sky Breaker. Does anyone have a template/wrap I can use? Maybe a location where such things are kept?

Almost ready for paint!

I draw up my own patterns for each model using Corel Draw. What I like are patterns that allow me to hold the fin in place while the glue dries. These patterns have a slot for the fin to fit inside, and it takes two to keep the fin aligned correctly.

The general arrangement is a circle with fin slots radiating outward...

[CPMcGraw]

Feyd,

Would you mind if I posted this design in our "official" BARCLONE lineup?

[Feyd]

Sure, no problem. Thanks!

I'm hoping to finish the fins at least this week (out of town right now) and hopefully fly it soon. I'm really looking forward to seeing if it'll fly like it's supposed to.

[Feyd]

It's built! Not painted yet, but built. Waiting for a day without 20mph winds to launch.

Here's a picture...

Feyd

[jetlag]

Color choices??? Looks Great!
Looking forward to the flight report.......................
Allen

[InFlight]

It only comes into play for less than 1 or 2 seconds of the life of the rocket! But people tend to remember those more than the sanding part.
Amen brother! :chuckle:

.

[Pem Tech]

If we all knew how to make and sell rocket kits - and make a profit from it - we'd be doing it. James and I collectively have probably 600 out of the 700 plus designs posted here, but neither of us are producing kits. I can attest to this one fact: It takes more time and more discipline to create ONE set of instructions for a kit than it does to create FIFTY or ONE HUNDRED designs. Ask CenturiGuy about his experience with the instructions for the SEMROC release "Tau Zero", and he'll give you a play-by-play of the procedure... :o

There are other manufacturers represented here, too, and each of them can provide their own unique perspective into the business. I listen to all of them...


Amen to that....
The designing, prototyping, building and flying are the fun part.
But the instructions and beta builds....
Woof...
That is labor intensive.

Wait a second...
Did you say profit?
Are we supposed to make money in this venture???
;)

It pays to have great folks who are willing to contribute illustrations and read over our Destruction manuals before the kits are released. Thanks Mal and Bob!
In order to lessen the drudgery of writing instructions we produce our infamous Destructions. Pretty much, it is a stream of consciousness approach liberally sprinkled with photos (still working on producing illustrations), information, tips, hints, off-beat humor and satire.
Oh, and there are a few steps on how to build the kits as well.
:D

Build your kit, fly it and document the whole process here and anywhere else you can. Make overtures to different manufacturers. Bring attention to your creation.

[Feyd]

Color choices... hmmm... I've been thinking about it but haven't really made a decision yet. I was thinking navy blue and yellow, but that seeks kind of boring.

I'll try some things out in RockSim to see how they look. Of course any suggestions are welcome.

Feyd

[CPMcGraw]

Amen to that....
The designing, prototyping, building and flying are the fun part.
But the instructions and beta builds....
Woof...
That is labor intensive...

I'd take building the beta test models any day over writing the instructions! That's still more like the "fun" part than the "work" part.

Unlike some on this forum, I don't like the sanding part as much, but it's still more fun than writing... :D

And I'll even give 'em some underwear primer, just to keep 'em from being nekkid...

Writing instructions is a lot like taking tests in school. Hated, worrisome, and only enjoyed after you ace 'em.

[Feyd]

You and me both. Kind of like writing documentation for a new computer program. Ugh. I'd rather write the software than document its usage! I get lots of practice at both (fortunately and unfortunately).

Updated fleet pictures on my website. I've "finished" several rockets but no new flights. Still waiting on a good day with something less than the 20mph winds we've been getting here.

Feyd

[Pem Tech]

I'd take building the beta test models any day over writing the instructions! That's still more like the "fun" part than the "work" part.



Guess I should have made that remark more specific. What I find so labor intensive about Beta building if the Beta builders encounter a problem with the build or flight characteristics. For the build problems you sometimes have to rethink the entire process, change up the order of the steps or put something into the Destructions that you thought was in there in the first place. Then make sure the entire document has continuity.
:o

Now flight problems are another matter......
Via email or phone you have to try and diagnose the problem, analyze the Beta builders methods of construction and consider a vast number of variables. For instance, we were going to bring an LPR version of the HMAS Bonestell to market last year. My personal builds were smooth, and flew beautifully on the numerous launches on my field and at ST2009. Well, except for the part where the KEVLAR pulled loose from the shock cord mount at ejection and the main airframe came in hot.
The Beta builders reported that his model would corkscrew during ascent. The first time, and every time it has flown. Now Brother John did one of the Beta builds so I know he is very knowledgeable and has mad rocket skills. The reason we can't produce the kit is that I can't reproduce and fix the problem!
:confused:
*sigh*
All those poor Ballz going to waste.

[rokitflite]

You're right, it does remind me a lot of that Bo-Rocks kit... What was it? The "HellBender" or something like that which became the "Skybender" from Sunward. I would be curious to see how the grain on the fins is laid out on your model to prevent breaking and or warping. Looks cool though.

http://www.rocketryforumarchive.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=37878&d=1173203178

[Feyd]

Exactly right. I have the Skybender and absolutely love it. My rocket was intended to be a true 2x model of the Skybender but I didn't recognize that RockSim could do that (a newbie) so I created it myself. I'll have to compare my design against what RockSim says.

Anyway, the winds are supposed to be calm on Friday (today is 14 gusting to 20) so I might get a chance to fly it then. If so, I'll post pictures.

Feyd