Ebay Alert

[mojo1986]

There is a very old Estes Sky Hook kit currently at auction on Ebay. I want to notify any potential bidders here on YORF that, although the kit is described as 'sealed in the bag', it has actually been opened and stapled shut. This will greatly reduce the value of this kit. I sent a question to the seller on the 22nd questioning the accuracy of his description but seller has not replied. Take a look......................

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370338629700&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

FAIR WARNING!!

Joe

[Ltvscout]

Thanks for the heads up, Joe.

[gerryfortin]

Hi Joe..

My thanks also for sounding a head's up.

[mojo1986]

I would pay $5 for the parachute, $5-$10 for the nose cone and body tube, and perhaps $25 for the instructions. So $35-$40 for that kit max. I suppose you could add a bit for the shipping box and brochure. Let's see what it goes for...................

Joe

[Der Red Max]

I sent a question to the seller on the 22nd questioning the accuracy of his description but seller has not replied.Looks like some else inquired as well regarding the stapling and the seller has confirmed it in the "Questions and answers about this item" section of the item.

[SEL]

I would pay $5 for the parachute, $5-$10 for the nose cone and body tube, and perhaps $25 for the instructions. So $35-$40 for that kit max. I suppose you could add a bit for the shipping box and brochure. Let's see what it goes for...................

Joe

I hope whomever bought it knew what they were buying.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370338629700&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

S

[blackshire]

I hope whomever bought it knew what they were buying.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370338629700&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

SHere's another interesting item from that seller (see: http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-70S-FLYING-ROCKET-WITH-BOX-PROPELENT_W0QQitemZ350321402349QQcategoryZ0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m506QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DNGRI%26its%3DI%252BS%26itu%3DUA%26otn%3D5%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D8150533666887701567 ). It's a RTF Cold Propellant rocket (NOT Vashon or Estes). I remember seeing them in hobby shops at the time but never had one. The same company also made a large RTF jet airplane that used one of these Cold Propellant motors, along with smaller spring-loaded "catapult gun" and elastic Hi-start launched versions of the jet (if memory serves, the smaller one was called the "Dyna-Jet Whiz"). Their planes had fuselages made of thin red or blue vacu-formed plastic, with solid sheet balsa wings and tail assemblies that had laminated "decal skins."

[Ltvscout]

Here's another interesting item from that seller (see: http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-70S-FLYING-ROCKET-WITH-BOX-PROPELENT_W0QQitemZ350321402349QQcategoryZ0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m506QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DNGRI%26its%3DI%252BS%26itu%3DUA%26otn%3D5%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D8150533666887701567 ). It's a RTF Cold Propellant rocket (NOT Vashon or Estes). I remember seeing them in hobby shops at the time but never had one.
I forgot all about those. Now that I see it I remember them as well.

[blackshire]

I forgot all about those. Now that I see it I remember them as well.The rocket and the jet models all had noses made of rather firm yellow foam rubber. The rocket had no recovery system, but simply fell and then "bounced down" like the Estes Birdie badminton shuttlecock rocket.

The smaller Dyna-Jet Whiz jets flew quite well, especially the Hi-start launched version. One of my older brothers had the larger Cold Propellant powered jet. The only flight of it that I remember is one where he apparently under-charged the motor, which was a length of thick-walled rubber tubing with red plastic forward and rear closures. The motor hissed but didn't produce sufficient thrust, and the model fell after he gently tossed it.

[Mark II]

The rocket and the jet models all had noses made of rather firm yellow foam rubber. The rocket had no recovery system, but simply fell and then "bounced down" like the Estes Birdie badminton shuttlecock rocket.I love the "technical" term for that method -- B.O.I.N.K. recovery (Bounce On Impact, No Kidding). :chuckle:

MarkII

[blackshire]

I love the "technical" term for that method -- B.O.I.N.K. recovery (Bounce On Impact, No Kidding). :chuckle:

MarkIIOdd'l Rockets should pick up that term for their version of the Estes Birdie shuttlecock rocket!

[CPMcGraw]

Here's another interesting item from that seller (see: http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-70S-FLYING-ROCKET-WITH-BOX-PROPELENT_W0QQitemZ350321402349QQcategoryZ0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m506QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DNGRI%26its%3DI%252BS%26itu%3DUA%26otn%3D5%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D8150533666887701567 ). It's a RTF Cold Propellant rocket (NOT Vashon or Estes). I remember seeing them in hobby shops at the time but never had one. The same company also made a large RTF jet airplane that used one of these Cold Propellant motors, along with smaller spring-loaded "catapult gun" and elastic Hi-start launched versions of the jet (if memory serves, the smaller one was called the "Dyna-Jet Whiz"). Their planes had fuselages made of thin red or blue vacu-formed plastic, with solid sheet balsa wings and tail assemblies that had laminated "decal skins."

THAT'S IT!!!!!

That's the rocket I received as a gift when I was about 9 or 10! It came with a small can of RP-100 propellant, which had just enough to fly it about six or seven times if you carefully managed the loading.

Noticed the page indicated there was no propellant, probably to satisfy eBay, but the package I received had both a small (half?) can, and an Estes catalog...

I thought I'd never see another one again. Thanks for the flashback! :)

[blackshire]

THAT'S IT!!!!!

That's the rocket I received as a gift when I was about 9 or 10! It came with a small can of RP-100 propellant, which had just enough to fly it about six or seven times if you carefully managed the loading.

Noticed the page indicated there was no propellant, probably to satisfy eBay, but the package I received had both a small (half?) can, and an Estes catalog...

I thought I'd never see another one again. Thanks for the flashback! :)You're most welcome. Also, here's a crazy idea--how about creating a dimensioned plan and decor scheme for this rocket? With a foam rubber nose, a clone of it could be flown safely utilizing the original B.O.I.N.K recovery, using 13 mm mini motors for power.

[mojo1986]

THAT'S IT!!!!!

That's the rocket I received as a gift when I was about 9 or 10! It came with a small can of RP-100 propellant, which had just enough to fly it about six or seven times if you carefully managed the loading.

Noticed the page indicated there was no propellant, probably to satisfy eBay, but the package I received had both a small (half?) can, and an Estes catalog...

I thought I'd never see another one again. Thanks for the flashback! :)

Craig.................just curious, what year would that have been? The seller claims this is from the 1960's.

Joe

[CPMcGraw]

Craig.................just curious, what year would that have been? The seller claims this is from the 1960's.

Joe

The page mentioned late 60's to early 70's, which fits when I received it. It was after both Apollo 11 and Hurricane Camile (1969). We had recently moved into a neighborhood where the schoolyard was about 10 houses up the street. It also had to be before 1972, when we moved again.

The rocket lasted one good session, mostly because my dad and I could never locate another can of RP-100.

[CPMcGraw]

You're most welcome. Also, here's a crazy idea--how about creating a dimensioned plan and decor scheme for this rocket? With a foam rubber nose, a clone of it could be flown safely utilizing the original B.O.I.N.K recovery, using 13 mm mini motors for power.

The thought has occurred to me more than once... :D

I'll see what my noodle can cook up... :rolleyes:

[Ltvscout]

The rocket lasted one good session, mostly because my dad and I could never locate another can of RP-100.
Really? Every auto supply store had them. I remember working at Whitlock Auto here in Milwaukee in the late 70's and stocking the shelves with cans and cans of the stuff. They sold for like 97 cents a can. It was just Freon.

[CPMcGraw]

Really? Every auto supply store had them. I remember working at Whitlock Auto here in Milwaukee in the late 70's and stocking the shelves with cans and cans of the stuff. They sold for like 97 cents a can. It was just Freon.

Yeah, looking back at it all in hindsight, it was probably in every Western Auto and (in the south) Bellas-Hess automotive department, too. Strange that we never gave it a try, though...

[Mark II]

Odd'l Rockets should pick up that term for their version of the Estes Birdie shuttlecock rocket!I found that acronym somewhere in here (http://www.rocketreviews.com/contests/photo_contest5.shtml), I think.

EDIT: OK, yes...See entry #6 by Alan Estenson.

MarkII

[mn-rocketry]

EDIT: OK, yes...See entry #6 by Alan Estenson.

Ah, yes. The BOINK Stomp rockets are an old MASA tradition. I flew one at our club launch on Saturday.
I honestly don't recall which MASA member originally came up with BOINK...

Unfortunately, the local surplus store ran out of the cheap foam stomp rockets years ago.

Alan

[PaulK]

Really? Every auto supply store had them. I remember working at Whitlock Auto here in Milwaukee in the late 70's and stocking the shelves with cans and cans of the stuff. They sold for like 97 cents a can. It was just Freon.Which store, and when? I worked at the Bluemound Rd store during 78-79, and often called other stores looking for parts.

[Ltvscout]

Which store, and when? I worked at the Bluemound Rd store during 78-79, and often called other stores looking for parts.
South 27th st. Super Store. I was there during that time. I later got promoted to the High Performance department.

This was back before the days of computers. All parts had to be looked up in catalogs. We used to have contests to see who could find an obscure part the fastest. I'd win about 98% of the time. ;)

[ghrocketman]

Obscure parts ????
Like Muffler Bearings and Duo-cabulator Valves for a 1971 Grand Ville ?

[Doug Sams]

Obscure parts ????
Like Muffler Bearings and Duo-cabulator Valves for a 1971 Grand Ville ?I imagine there are maybe two people on this forum who know what a Grand Ville is - you and me http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

My neigbors down the street had a 73 GV, loaded up with all the goodies and a 455 to boot. It was an awesome car...at least until the Arab oil embargo started later that year http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Doug

.

[tbzep]

I imagine there are maybe two people on this forum who know what a Grand Ville is - you and me http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

My neigbors down the street had a 73 GV, loaded up with all the goodies and a 455 to boot. It was an awesome car...at least until the Arab oil embargo started later that year http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Doug

.

Well, the 455 means it was an Oldsmobile or a Buick, though Olds is a little more famous for stuffing them in their 442's. :cool:

[ghrocketman]

The Grand Ville was the top of the line Bonneville from Pontiac.
Sort of like how the Park Avenue was the top-of-the-line Electra from Buick.
Pontiac also had a 455 as well and was the highest performing 455 out of the trio Pontiac-Buick-Olds.
When I was growing up, we had a 70 Catalina with a high-compression 455 4bbl as well as a 68 Ventura with a 400 that had the tri-power setup from an earlier 421 installed for induction.
One could make great power from a Buick or Olds 455, but it would cost one about 3 times as much as it cost to get it out of the Pontiac Engine.

My family had several Fords/Lincolns with high compression 429's and 460's as well.
We drove them DURING the gas crisis as well.
If it did not have a big-block, my dad was NOT interested.
I drove a 500+ hp 460-powered 1976 Thunderbird all through college.
Got 12mpg and I was happy it got THAT !

[Doug Sams]

Pontiac also had a 455 as well and was the highest performing 455 out of the trio Pontiac-Buick-Olds.According to my buddy and former Ky Pontiac dealer, there were actually two. The 455 super duty was an all-new engine with no interchangeable parts, built strictly for racing.

But I would love to have either one of them in something I could drive around in on the weekends :)

Doug

[Doug Sams]

Well, the 455 means it was an Oldsmobile or a Buick, though Olds is a little more famous for stuffing them in their 442's. :cool:As part of the consolidation of branding from the divisions to the GM brand, all the divisions morphed their motors during the mid-60s such that most of the divisions shared the same nomenclature (but for otherwise different motors. And they still screwed it up losing a law suit in the late 70's for putting a 350 Chevy into an Oldsmobile.) The Buick 430 begat their 455. The Olds 425 begat their 455. And the Pontiac 428 begat their 455. Chevy, being such a large part of GM I suppose, chose to be a tad different, and had a 454, begat from their 427. (Cadillac had a 472. Not sure how much it shared with others, but I think it shared some parts with the Olds motors.)

Doug

.

[tbzep]

Forgot about Pontiac. Did it have square or round exhaust ports? IIRC, Pontiac used some motors straight from Olds with the square ports.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

I worked with a guy who had a 455 SD Trans Am. This was right about the time I started college and right about the time I became keenly aware that the mighty 318 in my station wagon wasn't going to turn any heads. I never got to drive the 455, but I got a neck-snapping ride down Donaldson Road after work one night. Another guy had a Firebird Formula that had a high output Olds engine, possibly a 403? He had to take a plane across the field, so he asked me to get his car from the employee lot and pick him up at the hangar. I couldn't have been more thrilled. I was about halfway there, keeping my foot out of it for the most part, but still cruising at an easy 70, when the left rear tire blew in a big right-handed turn. I can't remember all of the details of the power slide anymore, but the end result found me off the road in a field with only a lucky move keeping both me and the car from serious damage. Somehow I also managed not to crap my pants. I got the tire changed and picked the now frantic pilot up. He was pissed and accused me of hot-footing it, but I had enough adrenaline left in my system to "convince" him otherwise. The tires were brand new, (BF Goodrich Radial T/A's possibly, but that's another detail that's more fog than substance anymore,) literally days old. On the way back to the employee lot we stopped and had a look at the skidmarks and the mess in the field. I remember shaking a lot while we stood there, and the guy must have apologized 20 times while we stood there looking. I'd managed to steer the car between two drainage ditches that would have killed both it and me. I remember that the smell of rubber was still in the air. I thought it was going to make me puke, but that was probably just the adrenaline OD. :rolleyes:

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

I imagine there are maybe two people on this forum who know what a Grand Ville is - you and me http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/images/smilies/smile.gif.

AHEM!!! :mad:
Let's just say I've done some reading on the subject. Had a neighbor with one, also. ;)
BTW, the book has a pic of the '79 Formula that tried to kill me. Still a great looking car.

[Doug Sams]

Forgot about Pontiac. Did it have square or round exhaust ports? IIRC, Pontiac used some motors straight from Olds with the square ports.I would expect that to have occurred in the late 70's, after they started swapping motors around. But couldn't tell you about the ports - I ain't that knowledgeable :)

Dad had a 455 Rocket in his 1968 Olds 88 :D

Doug

.

[Doug Sams]

AHEM!!! :mad:
Let's just say I've done some reading on the subject. Had a neighbor with one, also. ;)
BTW, the book has a pic of the '79 Formula that tried to kill me. Still a great looking car.I remember the wagons they had back then. When I met my wife in 1983, her family still had the Safari, IIRC, from the late 70's. Hearing folks complain in recent years about gas hog SUV's amuses me. Nothing sucked gas like a big block 70's land yacht wagon :) (Except maybe a fire breathing big block 60's wagon :D)



Doug

.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

I remember the wagons they had back then. When I met my wife in 1983, her family still had the Safari, IIRC, from the late 70's. Hearing folks complain in recent years about gas hog SUV's amuses me. Nothing sucked gas like a big block 70's land yacht wagon :) (Except maybe a fire breathing big block 60's wagon :D)



Doug

.
Now that you mention it, one of the guys I worked with, (and who was let go with me when the airline almost went under in the spring of '81,) had a big Pontiac wagon. Not sure of the model, but I think it was the one that had the rear door that dropped down when you opened it. It was metallic medium green with a white interior, same color combo as the one my Mom and Dad had picked out in 1973 but for the train wreck. ;)

[ghrocketman]

The 472 Cadillac Engine became the 500 Cadillac engine in around 1970. The Cadillac engine shared ZERO parts with any Olds V8 engines. The vlve-rocker cover shapes of the Caddy and Olds motors were similar, but NOT the same, which causes some confusion.
Prior to 1977, all GM vehicles used engines exclusively to their division; Chevy's got Chevy engines, Buicks got Buicks, Pontiacs got Pontiacs, Olds got Olds, Cadillac got Cadillac, EXCLUSIVELY. The only division that did not have their own engines was light-duty GMC truck. Light duty GMC trucks mostly got Chevrolet engines, but some got Pontiac engines.
In 1977, GM merged all powertrain divisions except Chevrolet and Cadillac.
The only divisions that kept exclusive powertrains was Chevy and Cadillac.
If one bought a Chevy, one was assured the car had a Chevy motor, same for Cadillac.
The one exception to this was the 1980 to 1981 Chevy Z28; one could intentionally order the Turbocharged 4bbl 301 Pontiac V8 in those cars.
Pontiac, Buick, and Olds started sharing all their engines along with the possibility of those 3 brands getting Chevrolet engines if one knew how to intentionally order them. This created the Mish-Mash of 301 pontiac V8's in LeSabres along with those turd 403 Olds motors in Trans Ams with automatic transmissions from 77-to 79. If one was smart, they knew all manual transmission 77 to 79 Trans Ams and Firebirds got genuine Pontiac engines (The 1979 Trans Am with 4sp stick trans was the last application of the Pontiac 400).
Up until the Northstar V8 was used optionally in the 2006 Buick Lucerne, no other GM product was allowed access to Cadillac engines.

[lurker01]

There is a very old Estes Sky Hook kit currently at auction on Ebay. I want to notify any potential bidders here on YORF that, although the kit is described as 'sealed in the bag', it has actually been opened and stapled shut. This will greatly reduce the value of this kit. I sent a question to the seller on the 22nd questioning the accuracy of his description but seller has not replied. Take a look......................

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370338629700&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

FAIR WARNING!!

Joe


Joe,

FYI for you and others here about stapled Estes kits...

They do exist, just very hard to come by.

If you have 62/63/early 64 kits, they are indeed stapled. I have a handful of such kits that were factory stapled and shipped this way directly from Estes. How do I know this, well I opened a sealed mailing box that contained Estes items (from an estate sale) and inside were a couple of 'direct from Estes' Astron Marks. Yes, they were stapled and yes they are mint from Estes. They date to ~1962/63. What is most interesting about them is that they come with the old hollowed out balsa nose block for a thrust ring... very nice.

There could be two reasons why early kits from Estes were stapled:

1) They didn't yet posses a heat sealer yet (applies to the very EARLY kit offerings)

or

2) The heat sealer was down, so they stapled kits until they got the sealer working again; same way the 'Blue Paper" Estes motors were released due to them running out of the brown motor paper for a very short time.

My money is on #1.

What I find so surprising from this group is that no one has picked up on the rarity of the Sky Hook that just closed on ebay ... it doesn't have a "K" number on the instructions and features a 'special price'! This is the kit version that you ordered from the Model Rocket News and not the commercial version that you later bought in 1964.

So not only isn't it opened, but its the 'pre-' version of the "K" kit catalog version; or the Model Rocket News kit (see MRN V3N4).

I believe that at the time MRN V3N4, Estes had decided to kit the Skyhook, but since the 1963 catalog had already been out for 7+ months, they offered the kit in MRN and then made space for it in the 1964 catalog.

So the take home message is: Don't assume that a stapled kit is an opened kit. Estes did in fact staple their early kits (I am not lying or making this up, as I have examples of their stapled kits direct from Estes). The early nascent kits had hollowed out balsa nose blocks for thrust rings and finding them is well a bit hard.
Also remember, Estes had paper hang tags that were stapled, but that was a later time and only deals with a handful of their kit offerings.

I know I know, go back under my rock ... so yes I will return. Hope you find the information above educational... or not.

Lurker01

[Ltvscout]

What I find so surprising from this group is that no one has picked up on the rarity of the Sky Hook that just closed on ebay ... it doesn't have a "K" number on the instructions and features a 'special price'! This is the kit version that you ordered from the Model Rocket News and not the commercial version that you later bought in 1964.
What's the eBay ID # of this auction? I'd like to look at it.

[scigs30]

I have an old Space Plane from Estes that is stapled........I just figured whoever bought it back in the day opened it and stapled it back. I bought it from a estate sell for 17 bucks. I am thinking about building it and leaving it unpainted for display. The Bt. is yellowish white whit no spirals, just one seam down the middle.

[lurker01]

I have an old Space Plane from Estes that is stapled........I just figured whoever bought it back in the day opened it and stapled it back. I bought it from a estate sell for 17 bucks. I am thinking about building it and leaving it unpainted for display. The Bt. is yellowish white whit no spirals, just one seam down the middle.

Scott,

The url to the auction is copied in the message at the top.

Scigs,

I would just build the clone and save the original for 'oooohs' and 'ahhhhhs'. Semroc and one other site sales very good Space Plane clones.

As for the yellow, convoluted manila paper tubes, those are known as BT-30s and they were hand made. It is my understanding that Glida (Mrs. Estes) would roll those tubes on their kitchen table by using a broom stick. I am not sure how long this particular manufacturing process continued but if you have it, Glida handled it in either it creation or kit packaging.

[gerryfortin]

Just a quick comment that this thread is very insightful on the possibility of stapled early Estes kits being authentic. The Sky Hook posting resulted in my not paying attention to the eBay listing afterwards. At least, the images are captured for the Estes kit database and when I have a chance to add more individual kit pages.

[mojo1986]

Joe,

FYI for you and others here about stapled Estes kits...

They do exist, just very hard to come by.

If you have 62/63/early 64 kits, they are indeed stapled. I have a handful of such kits that were factory stapled and shipped this way directly from Estes. How do I know this, well I opened a sealed mailing box that contained Estes items (from an estate sale) and inside were a couple of 'direct from Estes' Astron Marks. Yes, they were stapled and yes they are mint from Estes. They date to ~1962/63. What is most interesting about them is that they come with the old hollowed out balsa nose block for a thrust ring... very nice.

There could be two reasons why early kits from Estes were stapled:

1) They didn't yet posses a heat sealer yet (applies to the very EARLY kit offerings)

or

2) The heat sealer was down, so they stapled kits until they got the sealer working again; same way the 'Blue Paper" Estes motors were released due to them running out of the brown motor paper for a very short time.

My money is on #1.

What I find so surprising from this group is that no one has picked up on the rarity of the Sky Hook that just closed on ebay ... it doesn't have a "K" number on the instructions and features a 'special price'! This is the kit version that you ordered from the Model Rocket News and not the commercial version that you later bought in 1964.

So not only isn't it opened, but its the 'pre-' version of the "K" kit catalog version; or the Model Rocket News kit (see MRN V3N4).

I believe that at the time MRN V3N4, Estes had decided to kit the Skyhook, but since the 1963 catalog had already been out for 7+ months, they offered the kit in MRN and then made space for it in the 1964 catalog.

So the take home message is: Don't assume that a stapled kit is an opened kit. Estes did in fact staple their early kits (I am not lying or making this up, as I have examples of their stapled kits direct from Estes). The early nascent kits had hollowed out balsa nose blocks for thrust rings and finding them is well a bit hard.
Also remember, Estes had paper hang tags that were stapled, but that was a later time and only deals with a handful of their kit offerings.

I know I know, go back under my rock ... so yes I will return. Hope you find the information above educational... or not.

Lurker01

Bob.....................I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would need more convincing. I have seen Estes kits from the same era as the Sky Hook that was on Ebay (stapled) and they were all heat sealed (there are clues that help date kits, such as the artwork in the instructions, and I'd place a small wager that the Mark kits you refer to in your post have the same style of artwork as the aforementioned Sky Hook).

Heck, the Scout was Estes' first kit, and all of the earliest examples I've seen of it were heat sealed.

Now, if Vern were to step forward and state that he had personally closed his earlier kits with staples, that would certainly clinch it. By the way, what are the staples in your kits like? Do they match the staples that were used in some of Estes other early products? How about posting a few photos to help support your case?

Joe

[lurker01]

Bob.....................I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would need more convincing. I have seen Estes kits from the same era as the Sky Hook that was on Ebay (stapled) and they were all heat sealed (there are clues that help date kits, such as the artwork in the instructions, and I'd place a small wager that the Mark kits you refer to in your post have the same style of artwork as the aforementioned Sky Hook).

Heck, the Scout was Estes' first kit, and all of the earliest examples I've seen of it were heat sealed.

Now, if Vern were to step forward and state that he had personally closed his earlier kits with staples, that would certainly clinch it. By the way, what are the staples in your kits like? Do they match the staples that were used in some of Estes other early products? How about posting a few photos to help support your case?

Joe


Hello Joe,

I will never again post pictures of my collection or photos of items again on this site. After being told or implied that I had some sort of 'sickness', I just figure ... why bother?

http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showpost.php?p=63702&postcount=77

Lets just say I have enough older kits to know what I am talking about. Trust me, I did post bins and bins of OLD NOT SKILL LEVEL KITS, NOT 13XX KITS, BUT KITS FROM THE 60'S ("K" kits and Centuri Kits, + others); and it was felt that the photos were DISTURBING (please see the link above).

I also need to go back to that thread and remove the remaining pictures; my personal property is no one's business except my own, I should have learned that by this time in my life!

Interesting that others can post picture after picture of their "K" kits and they are welcomed with praise and accolades, yet I post bins and lockers worth, and now I have a sickness... well never again will I post a SINGLE image or picture on this site ever again ... I was a bit hesitant on even replying to this original thread and well... I wish I hadn't ... why should I educate others? It has cost me tens of thousands of dollars for the items and knowledge that I have and frankly, I am not into giving it away for free... never again.

Estes kits came stapled in the early years. I don't need you to certify it as I already know its true so I don't need your or anyone else's validation. Nothing personal of course; just tired of fighting with people ... why bother? Do I win a prize? Do I get extra years added to my life or more money in the bank? Nope, its a waste of my time and efforts.

Look to make things smooth and allow egos to flow freely here, disregard EVERYTHING and ANYTHING I have posted here over the years. Scott/Buzz I DEMAND THAT YOU REMOVE EVERY POSTING I HAVE EVER MADE TO YOUR SITE! I will stop posting and showing that I have some DISTURBED behavior because I have thousands of rocket kits; I probably eat babies on the side; GREAT WITH SOY SAUCE!.

In turn I will make all of you happy and remove my account from this forum. This way you will all feel safe and secure in your current knowledge and model rocket history. I will no longer 'rock the boat' by introducing information that is contrary to your current belief system. Its a win-win for you all!

The proto-types, the plans, the 8mm and 16mm film, the negatives, the correspondences ... just let it go. Just forget about it. Estes kits started with heat sealed kits ... why? Because that is what you know ... anything contrary to that is at best myth and most likely fabrication on my part.

So with that, let me go and delete the rest of my pictures and finally my account from this forum. Its been a long run, but frankly folks we all know we are sick of me. We are sick of the political postings; we are sick of the rocket postings, we are sick of the 'lurker' postings. Yes 'WE'. I really do have better things to do and you all have better things to read. Be honest with yourself; search your feelings, you know this to be true.

So until the 50's/60's generation of rocketeers die off, I will not have a seat at the table of rocketry collectors, competitors, fliers. So I will just have to sit and count my time until that day comes; 'every dog has their day' ... my day will come and pass.

Good luck to you all no matter what your rocketry interest is.

LURKER01 ... lurking no longer! Ring the church bells!

[rokitflite]

Hello Joe,

I will never again post pictures of my collection or photos of items again on this site. After being told or implied that I had some sort of 'sickness', I just figure ... why bother?

http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showpost.php?p=63702&postcount=77

Lets just say I have enough older kits to know what I am talking about. Trust me, I did post bins and bins of OLD NOT SKILL LEVEL KITS, NOT 13XX KITS, BUT KITS FROM THE 60'S ("K" kits and Centuri Kits, + others); and it was felt that the photos were DISTURBING (please see the link above).


LURKER01 ... lurking no longer! Ring the church bells!


One person reacted poorly to the pictures of EVERYONES collections, mine included... YOU just chose to take your ball and go home. :rolleyes:

[mojo1986]

search your feelings, you know this to be true.

Bob...........................may the Force be with you.

Joe

[scigs30]

Hey, I started that topic.................I saw that post and I was not really offended. Boxes and Boxes of Estes kits is not a sickness.................APS, CPS........Heck I have seen a lot worse over the years in my job, but mostly junk.....Most collectors of Comics and other valuables keep their items stored safely and not all over the house. You want to see sickness just watch Hoarders.....This hobby has been a life saver for me. Sure I have spent a few thousand dollars on vintage kits, but how many hours of enjoyment is that? I was spending that much money a month on drinking and partying. Yeah That's a lot of drinking. I am now married, doing what I like....Traveling, Running, Sports, rocketry and free-flight. Life is too short, do what makes you happy as long as you are not hurting others.

[tbzep]

Heck I have seen a lot worse over the years in my job, but mostly junk.....Most collectors of Comics and other valuables keep their items stored safely and not all over the house. You want to see sickness just watch Hoarders......

That's right. I've crawled across rooms trying to get to fires without ever coming close to touching the floor. I've crawled completely through a few houses without touching the floor (at least it felt like I didn't...Scigs30 will know what I mean), all the while thinking I should back the team out and let it burn for the good of the family. :eek:

[Doug Sams]

...thinking I should back the team out and let it burn for the good of the family. :eek:Your family? Or the homeowner's? :)

Doug

.

[tbzep]

Your family? Or the homeowner's? :)

Doug

.

I was thinking of the homeowner's, but I guess my family would benefit from me not getting myself killed trying to save a home that should be condemned to begin with....unless there are some life insurance policies I don't know about. :eek:

[mojo1986]

This is a public apology to Bob (Lurker01). Bob, I have reprinted my comment to your post regarding Estes stapled kits below:

"Bob.....................I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would need more convincing. I have seen Estes kits from the same era as the Sky Hook that was on Ebay (stapled) and they were all heat sealed (there are clues that help date kits, such as the artwork in the instructions, and I'd place a small wager that the Mark kits you refer to in your post have the same style of artwork as the aforementioned Sky Hook).

Heck, the Scout was Estes' first kit, and all of the earliest examples I've seen of it were heat sealed.

Now, if Vern were to step forward and state that he had personally closed his earlier kits with staples, that would certainly clinch it. By the way, what are the staples in your kits like? Do they match the staples that were used in some of Estes other early products? How about posting a few photos to help support your case?

Joe"

Bob, you appear to have left this forum, but I hope you drop in occasionally so that you might read this post. I can tell you sincerely that there was no intent to offend you in any way with my comment. Estes may well have stapled their earliest kits, but since any opened kit can be stapled closed, I think it would be difficult to state definitively that a stapled kit is an Estes original. Again, if Vern or anyone who worked at Estes during the early years can confirm this, that would clinch it for me. Until then, I remain skeptical. Perhaps Bill Simon, a member here, could shed some additional light on this.

Bob, I really think you have taken my comments the wrong way, and I am disappointed in your reaction. You are a knowledgeable, longtime collector with a lot to contribute here. I hope you will consider returning.

Joe

[sandman]

One person reacted poorly to the pictures of EVERYONES collections, mine included... YOU just chose to take your ball and go home. :rolleyes:

And, Scott, you have a lot of kits! ;)