Estes Phoenix Bird

[DWolman]

Just received an Estes Phoenix Bird kit from BRS Hobbies (thanks for the quick shipping!) - I'm surprised that the kit has a balsa nose cone and fins - considering that the original Centuri model used the common BT-56 nose cone and 4-fin unit.

Are the BT-56 nose cone and 4-fin unit on any kits still in production? I know there are kits still in the hobby shops, but I'm curious - it seems like there will be zero plastic from Estes going forwards, if they're going to balsa when there are off the shelf plastic parts available.

[Green Dragon]

:(

sad to hear this ,as the Phoenix Bird was one I have wanted for YEARS.

was about to order a couple .

are the foil decal stickers nice ?

I;d still buy one and clone it with plastic fin unit and PNC56. as I have a couple of those left.

curious about the lack of plastic parts - mayube china lead testing, etc is holding up deliveries ?

[jadebox]

Are the BT-56 nose cone and 4-fin unit on any kits still in production? I know there are kits still in the hobby shops, but I'm curious - it seems like there will be zero plastic from Estes going forwards, if they're going to balsa when there are off the shelf plastic parts available.

Estes may be moving away from plastic because of the new regulations about lead testing for "toys." Producing parts in the US makes it easier to meet the regulations, but plastic parts made in the US are much more expensive than ones from China.

There are still, however, lots of Estes kits with plastic parts and I suspect there will continue to be many - especially for the read-to-fly and almost-ready-to-fly rockets.

Anyway ... if you're interested, we have a Centuri MARS Project kit up for auction on eBay (http://www.jonrocket.com/auctions.html) right now. I think the plastic fin unit it has is the same one the original Phoenix used.

-- Roger

[mn-rocketry]

Are the BT-56 nose cone and 4-fin unit on any kits still in production?

AFAIK, only kit still in production with those parts is the Estes Eliminator
http://www.estesrockets.com/store/001950-eliminatortm.html

Alan

[rokitflite]

Thats just stupid. I hope Hobbico can get this stupid lead-in-plastic scare thing straightened out. What the hell is the point of releasing a kit as a "classic" if it isn't even close to what the original was? The Phoenix Bird also had a plastic tube coupler section as I recall.

[Shreadvector]

i don;t think it is "lead in plastic". Lead is in metals and in paint and pigments. The plastics are another problem - a chemical. Covered and explained clearly in the now "for archive use only" Estes sub-forums. I'm sure Googling "US toy law plastics" will result in something as well.

And here it is - 3 clicks away: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthalates

[rokitflite]

i don;t think it is "lead in plastic". Lead is in metals and in paint and pigments. The plastics are another problem - a chemical. Covered and explained clearly in the now "for archive use only" Estes sub-forums. I'm sure Googling "US toy law plastics" will result in something as well.

And here it is - 3 clicks away: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthalates


:rolleyes:

Point is, Revell (owned by Hobbico) has not started making their models out of wood have they? Quest is still making plastic cones. The molds already exist, make the stupid thing like the original.

[Shreadvector]

:rolleyes:

Point is, Revell (owned by Hobbico) has not started making their models out of wood have they? Quest is still making plastic cones. The molds already exist, make the stupid thing like the original.

It is (as explained by the Estes folks in the now archive-only-sub-forums) a combination of the age level the product is sold to and the toy laws and the cost of testing every batch run and the cost of rejecting and destroying batches that fail the test.

Estes has a long established "age recommendation" for their products and it falls under the "child" law limits.

Quest and Semroc are (apparently, and I think SEMROC has flat out stated it) not selling toys to children as defined by the new laws/regulations.

Of course, IANAL. ;)

By the way, notice how some Estes kits now have a screamingly-bold notice about age? That would include the Eliminator, but not the retro-P-Bird. Different target consumers, different applicable laws/regs.

http://www.estesrockets.com/store/rockets/001950-eliminatortm.html

age 18 and up.

Gotta go now. Big panic at one of our suppliers.....

[Initiator001]

The Phoenix Bird (PB) I ordered arrived today.

I bought it knowing that it did not have the plastic parts. Heck, it doesn't even use an ST-13/BT-56 body tube. This kit uses BT-55.

This PB has 'through the tube' fins but I don't know if they go all the way to the motor tube (I have yet to open the kit). The slots in the body tube appear to be punched rather than laser cut.

Speaking of laset cut, whoever was running the laser to cut the motor mount centering rings needs to cut back on the Watts! There was quite a bit of burning on the paper.

The balsa nose block is pretty long for a kit this size. After years of 'short' balsa nose blocks, the one in this PB is at least three inches long.

Estes took an easy to build and finish kit (Centuri Phoenix Bird) and made it more difficult to construct. Give me back my plastic parts! :D

Oh, I can see in the bag bits of dirt and looks like hair. Did some poor Chinese worker fall into the packaging machine while it was running? ;)

I'll get around to building this kit at some point. :rolleyes:

Bob

[Green Dragon]

Honestly, after seeing the pics and new info, it looks like a nice bird - through the wall, nice long bulkhead, might still grab one but not build as a Phoenix Bird - just save the decals and rename the rocket. and custom paint :)

glad I did not order one yet though, would have been a huge disappointment, especially with limited finances to throw it away on a letdown :(

build pics when you start :)

~ AL

[Doug Sams]

This kit uses BT-55.

(snip)

The balsa nose block is pretty long for a kit this size. After years of 'short' balsa nose blocks, the one in this PB is at least three inches long.BT-55 is good (IMO). Long coupler (nose block) is very good - too many of these are too short - from most vendors - not just Estes (IMO).

<rant> One thing which gets me, and does a disservice to Estes, is the paint scheme on the kit card. With the fin can painted a separate color from the body tube, it gives the appearance that the fin can is a pre-fabbed unit - ie, plastic - meaning E2X and heavy. These are turnoffs for me. Of course, thanks to Bob, I know better, but it's not the first kit I've been initially uninterested in due to the perception of E2X/RTF fin can. As I recall, one of the early E9-powered kits had a similar scheme.

I wonder how many other potential customers have been affected like this.

Doug

.

[Shreadvector]

BT-55 is good (IMO). Long coupler (nose block) is very good - too many of these are too short - from most vendors - not just Estes (IMO).

<rant> One thing which gets me, and does a disservice to Estes, is the paint scheme on the kit card. With the fin can painted a separate color from the body tube, it gives the appearance that the fin can is a pre-fabbed unit - ie, plastic - meaning E2X and heavy. These are turnoffs for me. Of course, thanks to Bob, I know better, but it's not the first kit I've been initially uninterested in due to the perception of E2X/RTF fin can. As I recall, one of the early E9-powered kits had a similar scheme.

I wonder how many other potential customers have been affected like this.

Doug

.

I suggest a poll over on TRF to find out. I haven't seen a poll with actual rocketry content in a while.

[JumpJet]

I believe information on what the kit actually contains would be best obtained by visiting the Estes web site. The Estes site will let you know if the kit has slotted tubes for fin locations, laser cut fins, or a plastic fin unit. It would appear websites that offer the kit for sale usually don’t supply this information.


John Boren
www.johnboren.com

[rokitflite]

I just saw one hanging in my store and I'm surprised at how relatively small the package is! I have an original Phoenix Bird or two, and the packaging is huge (obviously because of the fin unit). This is rather small, like the Red Max packaging.

[motley16]

the way i see it estes is now supplying us with product...finally. why all the bitching? if you dont like the products dont buy them. as far as not knowing what you are buying till it is bought shame on you...do your homework. i like the new kits so far...new kits are a good thing. lighten up people.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

the way i see it estes is now supplying us with product...finally. why all the bitching? if you dont like the products dont buy them. as far as not knowing what you are buying till it is bought shame on you...do your homework. i like the new kits so far...new kits are a good thing. lighten up people.

Yep, gotta agree. Beats a blank in my book, and with Estes providing a kit for NARAM, I like the way things are moving. :cool:

[Bob Thomas]

I agree that the long awaited release of these "new" kits is a good thing, I am left with a feeling similar to trying to satisfy a hankering for real pizza with Elio's frozen.

Of course I (luckily) completed my clones of the Long Tom, Excalibur II, Scramjet, Centuri Photon Probe, Centurion and Centaur a while ago. I will not be purchasing many of these re-issue, near scale, theme and paint layout stealing Centuri spectres under an Estes Logo.

I will probably purchase a few Estes retreads, spending the time to at least make them LOOK like the originals. The Estes Photon Probe and Disruptor are likely purchases.


Phoenix bird looks real close to the Centuri but I would ask for a high res scan of the Decal and Ill rework it for myself under a Centuri banner. Wasnt the original decal on foil?

[ghrocketman]

A balsa nose cone for a Phoenix Bird is not all bad, but the defining feature of this one in my book is the molded, one-piece, "Enerjet" fin unit. Gonna have to pass on this one....

[Shreadvector]

This may be a question for Bob: Didn't the Enerjet version of the fin unit *not* have the molded in lug for a 3/14" rod? In other words, it was much cleaner aerodynamically without the big molded lug-blob.

I seem to recall that the Centuri version for the smaller Model Rockets added the lug-blob. And, of course, Estes inheritied this mold and the ST-13 became the BT-56 since it was a teeny bit larger than the BT-55.

[Shreadvector]

This may be a question for Bob: Didn't the Enerjet version of the fin unit *not* have the molded in lug for a 3/14" rod? In other words, it was much cleaner aerodynamically without the big molded lug-blob.

I seem to recall that the Centuri version for the smaller Model Rockets added the lug-blob. And, of course, Estes inheritied this mold and the ST-13 became the BT-56 since it was a teeny bit larger than the BT-55.

of course, I may have a faulty memory. here is one picture I found in only a 2 minute search:

[Green Dragon]

Have to agree - that the lack of the fin can is a letdown .

obviously some feel the fincan is a hinderence, some feel it's a must, so opinions will differ.

I * AM * glad to see the classic stuff released, updates or no, because they will be a boon to actual 'builders kits' :)

.. one ? on the Phoenix Bird for those who have one - is the decal not chrome foil ? another letdown if it's not, and will keep me from purchasing the kit .

~ AL

[Doug Sams]

Have to agree - that the lack of the fin can is a letdown .

obviously some feel the fincan is a hinderence, some feel it's a must, so opinions will differ. (snip) After reading these last few posts, I realize the fin can was a feature of the original, so the paint job is likely in tribute to that. It makes sense for the sake of authenticity.

And, since it really doesn't have one, I like it http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
Doug

.

[foose4string]

I had one in my hand at the hobby shop today. I was tempted. The kit quality looked very good as did the other new releases. The absence of the plastic fin can doesn't bother me in the least and I was pleasantly surprised to see the slotted tube. I'd rather see a plastic cone instead of a fin can. For some reason I'm not jumping up and down over these new releases ...none of them are really screaming, "BUY ME!", but it's good to see Estes delivering on some promises.

[Bob Thomas]

Think how easy it would be to near-faithfully reproduce a fin can. I had entertained the thought before, when cloning the Kadet. The balsa/basswood and BT looks indistinguishable from plastic and is worthy of the "Clone" moniker. What I have built contains a mount and can be easily shared as a removable unit, although I have not done so yet.

Again, can anyone provide a scan of the new version Decal?

[blackshire]

of course, I may have a faulty memory. here is one picture I found in only a 2 minute search:I've always wondered...what were the "industrial and commercial applications" for which the Enerjet 1340 Sounding Rocket were sold and used, and what companies used the vehicle? (I imagine pollution plume monitoring may have been one use.)

[Initiator001]

This may be a question for Bob: Didn't the Enerjet version of the fin unit *not* have the molded in lug for a 3/14" rod? In other words, it was much cleaner aerodynamically without the big molded lug-blob.

I seem to recall that the Centuri version for the smaller Model Rockets added the lug-blob. And, of course, Estes inheritied this mold and the ST-13 became the BT-56 since it was a teeny bit larger than the BT-55.

The 'Enerjet' fin can has always had the built-in 3/16" launch lug. It is even called out in the Enerjet 1340 brochure.

Bob

[BRS Hobbies]

Out of the new 2010 Estes kits that have been released so far, I like the Phoenix Bird the best. The only change that I would prefer is a plastic nose cone.

Best regards,
Brian

[scigs30]

I'm happy :o

[o1d_dude]

Just a caution for those who buy the kit and plan to assemble it:

1. The instructions lead you to believe you should mount the TTW fins to the body before inserting the motor mount in the body tube. I caught this error before assembly.

2. The instructions for assembling the motor mount don't produce a mount with centering ring spacing that will fit the tabs on the TTW fins. This error I DIDN'T catch until I tried dry fitting the pieces. No big, I will slot the tabs as needed.

The noseplug/bulkhead is 2" long compared to the 1.5" commonly available from vendors. I've a good mind to substitute a 1.5" in the PB and use the 2" long one in my Cherokee Double D.

[Green Dragon]

don't think anyone answered the questioon about the decals / stickers on this one .

are they the foil decals as original ? ( or close enough ) ?

or are they non metalic stickers or waterslide,e tc. ?


just curious, as I;d buy the kit for decals, clone with parts I have, and then build the new kit, without the phoenix bird decor, as it;s not the right bird anywways ( but is a nice looking bird ) .

~ AL

[Bob Thomas]

I'm still waiting too, Al.

Hasn't anyone purchased one yet? Hoping I wouldn't have to buy it to know what was in it.

Sort of like the Health Insurance Legislation debacle.

Anyway, the advertizement says foil decal - unknown if faithful to original.

STILL, could someone provide scan or point me to a redraw?

[Shreadvector]

I'm still waiting too, Al.

Hasn't anyone purchased one yet? Hoping I wouldn't have to buy it to know what was in it.

Sort of like the Health Insurance Legislation debacle.

Anyway, the advertizement says foil decal - unknown if faithful to original.

STILL, could someone provide scan or point me to a redraw?

I have one. In the bag inside my garage. I'm at work. Who knows if I'll remember to look at it later?

I have a Payloader II as well.

Hobby People has (or had) one of each new kit at every store.

[raohara]

Just a caution for those who buy the kit and plan to assemble it:

1. The instructions lead you to believe you should mount the TTW fins to the body before inserting the motor mount in the body tube. I caught this error before assembly.

2. The instructions for assembling the motor mount don't produce a mount with centering ring spacing that will fit the tabs on the TTW fins. This error I DIDN'T catch until I tried dry fitting the pieces. No big, I will slot the tabs as needed.

Estes revised the instructions for both the 3024 Phoenix Bird and 2421 Cosmic Explorer in what I think is an attempt to address this issue. Slip notes with the updated instructions are available for product that shipped from the factory before the issue was discovered.

- Rich

[JumpJet]

I am currently building one and the model comes with chrome Mylar type peel and stick sticker with redish orange color on top.


John Boren
www.johnboren.com

[Shreadvector]

I have one. In the bag inside my garage. I'm at work. Who knows if I'll remember to look at it later?

I have a Payloader II as well.

Hobby People has (or had) one of each new kit at every store.

Yes, they are metallized stickers. You can see them through the sealed package.

[Shreadvector]

Estes revised the instructions for both the 3024 Phoenix Bird and 2421 Cosmic Explorer in what I think is an attempt to address this issue. Slip notes with the updated instructions are available for product that shipped from the factory before the issue was discovered.

- Rich


http://www.estesrockets.com/assets/instructions/003024_INSTCHG_0310.pdf

[o1d_dude]

Rich, I'm not sure what you mean by "slip notes". Errata documents I'm sure, but how do you get these?

I email Estes customer service about the problem but don't expect to hear from them for a day or two.

Thanks.

[raohara]

Rich, I'm not sure what you mean by "slip notes". Errata documents I'm sure, but how do you get these?

I email Estes customer service about the problem but don't expect to hear from them for a day or two.

Thanks.
Sorry about the terminology. Slip notes is an Estes term. The slip notes (errata) are going out to retailers and distributors so they can attach them to kits that have the "bad" instructions.

You can find at least one of them at the link Fred provided. The pdf files I have are too large for the forum; PM me with an email address and I will send them to you.

[snaquin]

just curious, as I;d buy the kit for decals, clone with parts I have, and then build the new kit, without the phoenix bird decor, as it;s not the right bird anywways ( but is a nice looking bird ) .

~ AL

AL,

This is what I plan to do as well. Basically buy the new Phoenix Bird kit for the decals and use those decals on my Centuri Mars Project display rocket and add a motor mount and recovery system to build a proper Phoenix Bird clone. That way I'll have the plastic nose cone and plastic coupler required and I already have a few fin cans for EnerJet clones and the spare parts on hand. I'm thinking the decals can't be too far off going from BT-55 to BT-56.

From what I've seen posted the new Phoenix Bird does appear to be a nice model in it's own right and I like the TTW fins. I also like the fact that it is a payloader and that is true to the original. I'd build it and decorate it in old school black and orange colors with some reflective aluminum colored monokote, ect and convert it to streamer recovery.

Since the Eliminator is still in the Estes line up with a plastic fin can and plastic nose cone it's too bad Estes just didn't throw a BT-56 sized bulkead in the bag with decals sized to BT-56 and eliminate the Eliminator? Isn't it about time Estes called the Eliminator something else anyway?

:chuckle:

[Initiator001]

Since the Eliminator is still in the Estes line up with a plastic fin can and plastic nose cone it's too bad Estes just didn't throw a BT-56 sized bulkead in the bag with decals sized to BT-56 and eliminate the Eliminator? Isn't it about time Estes called the Eliminator something else anyway?

:chuckle:

I agree.

"Will the real Eliminator rocket please stand up..." ;)

Bob

[Chas Russell]

Well, Bob,

That would be the pretty model on the right.



Before "North Coast Rocketry by Estes" I was the production manager for NCR '93-'94. I cut a lot of fins for the NCR models, and some of them were even matching!

I flew the snot out of a NCR by Estes Eliminator that Matt Steele sent me and it finally had a recovery problem. At the time Matt was working for Orbital Sciences, so the repaired model became the Eliminator XL (thanks to 3" tubing from BMS). Think Pegasus XL or Taurus XL launch vehicles. It lives and flies today. Flew it at a DARS launch (Frisco, TX) on a G redline for a beautiful flight against a clear blue sky.

Oh yeah, I have that Estes one too. And fin units to build the original Centuri Phoenix...

But, I digress....