Red River Rocketry

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Looks like the dust from the Lander builds is going to be pretty thick for a while, so instead of breaking out mine and adding to the chaos, I decided to start on one of the other kits I picked up at Narcon, the Red River Rocketry Starliner DST. It's a sharp looking little kit that uses a cool mix of tail cone/transition and fins. Pretty unique looking, and it looks like it will be a pretty quick build.
(BTW, the pic is from the RRR website. Just thought you'd like to see the kit.)

[PaulK]

Looks like the dust from the Lander builds is going to be pretty thick for a while, so instead of breaking out mine and adding to the chaos, I decided to start on one of the other kits I picked up at Narcon, the Red River Rocketry Starliner DST. It's a sharp looking little kit that uses a cool mix of tail cone/transition and fins. Pretty unique looking, and it looks like it will be a pretty quick build.
(BTW, the pic is from the RRR website. Just thought you'd like to see the kit.)

For whatever reason, that kit really caught my attention at narcon also. Nice fellow that runs RRR, had a good chat with him. Too bad I had already blown my budget by that time... I look forward to hearing how the build & launch goes.

-Paul

[dwmzmm]

For whatever reason, that kit really caught my attention at narcon also. Nice fellow that runs RRR, had a good chat with him. Too bad I had already blown my budget by that time... I look forward to hearing how the build & launch goes.

-Paul

Yes, you're talking about John Dyer. John and Scott Hunsicker, when they were a team back
in the early 1970's, once held the US (and world, if I'm not mistaken) Parachute Duration Record (not sure what class, but I think it was an A or B motor). I met John at the Tex Regional in McGregor, TX last June, having not seen him since the late 1970's. It was really
great to see him again.

[John Dyer]

Yes, you're talking about John Dyer. John and Scott Hunsicker, when they were a team back
in the early 1970's, once held the US (and world, if I'm not mistaken) Parachute Duration Record (not sure what class, but I think it was an A or B motor). I met John at the Tex Regional in McGregor, TX last June, having not seen him since the late 1970's. It was really
great to see him again.


It was great seeing you again too!

Yep... Scott and I had to beat Carl Feldhaus's 1 minute B engine Parachute flight. We definately succeeded - total flight time was 39 minutes 32.5 seconds. The funny thing is Scott and I followed what we thought was the model out of the field - it landed in a nearby park. When we got close enough we relised it was a bird that had crossed under our model while we were tracking it. We got back to the field just in time to see the model touch down about 100 yards from the pad - it never left the field. :)

[John Dyer]

For whatever reason, that kit really caught my attention at narcon also. Nice fellow that runs RRR, had a good chat with him. Too bad I had already blown my budget by that time... I look forward to hearing how the build & launch goes.

-Paul

Hey Paul!
Thanks for the kind words. I understand blowing budgets. Will you be at NSL or NARAM?

John

[Doug Sams]

The funny thing is Scott and I followed what we thought was the model out of the field - it landed in a nearby park. When we got close enough we relised it was a bird that had crossed under our model while we were tracking it. We got back to the field just in time to see the model touch down about 100 yards from the pad - it never left the field. :) Must be a DARS thing. I still get chided for diligently tracking Dave Schaefer's ARV Condor glider all the way to the ground between two cars and returning with a handful of wadding :(

Doug

[John Dyer]

Must be a DARS thing. I still get chided for diligently tracking Dave Schaefer's ARV Condor glider all the way to the ground between two cars and returning with a handful of wadding :(

Doug

Actually, the only ones that picked on us was us... Everyone had a good laugh. Anyone who hasn't tracked a vapor model raise their hands ;)

John

[John Dyer]

Looks like the dust from the Lander builds is going to be pretty thick for a while, so instead of breaking out mine and adding to the chaos, I decided to start on one of the other kits I picked up at Narcon, the Red River Rocketry Starliner DST. It's a sharp looking little kit that uses a cool mix of tail cone/transition and fins. Pretty unique looking, and it looks like it will be a pretty quick build.
(BTW, the pic is from the RRR website. Just thought you'd like to see the kit.)

Let me know how the build goes. I have a question - how do you post fotos here? Can ya tell I'm just a newbie to this forum???

John
---
John Dyer
www.redriverrocketry.com

[dwmzmm]

I have a question - how do you post fotos here? Can ya tell I'm just a newbie to this forum???

John
---
John Dyer
www.redriverrocketry.com

I haven't been able to figure that out, either. I just put in the links to alternate websites of
a pic(s) I wish to show. So, don't feel bad, John. I've been on this server for a little while!

[CPMcGraw]

I haven't been able to figure that out, either. I just put in the links to alternate websites of
a pic(s) I wish to show. So, don't feel bad, John. I've been on this server for a little while!

(This thread is beginning to sound like that new song by the Grasscals -- "Me and John and Paul...")

Hello, John...

At the bottom of the message editor screen there is a button which says "Manage Attachments". Click this button, and you are given another screen with ten upload buttons. You can attach up to ten files to any one message.

The images are then placed as thumbnails at the bottom of the message, and these become links to the full-size image.

Welcome to the forum!

[PaulK]

Hey Paul!
Thanks for the kind words. I understand blowing budgets. Will you be at NSL or NARAM?

Ah, er, no, but thanks for asking. I'm just getting back into this rocketry thing (after a 30 year hiatus), and my wife already thinks I'm obsessed, so I haven't wanted to bring up the subject of travelling cross country to launch rockets :rolleyes: . But in a year or two, when my son is old enough to make it a father son thing, who knows? BTW, do folks really like travelling to phoenix in summer?! :eek:

-Paul

[John Dyer]

Ah, er, no, but thanks for asking. I'm just getting back into this rocketry thing (after a 30 year hiatus), and my wife already thinks I'm obsessed, so I haven't wanted to bring up the subject of travelling cross country to launch rockets :rolleyes: . But in a year or two, when my son is old enough to make it a father son thing, who knows? BTW, do folks really like travelling to phoenix in summer?! :eek:

-Paul


I any excuse to fly rockets is a good excuse :rolleyes:

Welcome back to the hobby!

John
--
John Dyer
www.redriverrocketry.

[John Dyer]

(This thread is beginning to sound like that new song by the Grasscals -- "Me and John and Paul...")

Hello, John...

At the bottom of the message editor screen there is a button which says "Manage Attachments". Click this button, and you are given another screen with ten upload buttons. You can attach up to ten files to any one message.

The images are then placed as thumbnails at the bottom of the message, and these become links to the full-size image.

Welcome to the forum!

Thanks Craig!
For all others, the button he's talking about is under "additional Options"...

I'm attaching a foto of the next kit prototype. I showed it at NARCON and got
positive feedback from all the attendees that stopped by my tables. I'm going to try
to get the kit out for NSL, but it may take a bit longer. Keep in mind I haven't
designed the decals yet. It's basically a Space fighter/bomber type rocket. This kit
will be the third in my Future/Fiction series (along with Predator and Starliner
DST).


John
--
John Dyer
www.redriverrocketry.com

[Eagle3]

Hey John, When you browse to the photo you want to attach make sure you click on the upload button.

I was checking out John's new prototype at NARCON and it's a slick looking model! Looking forward to it's release. :)

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Thanks Craig!
For all others, the button he's talking about is under "additional Options"...

I'm attaching a foto of the next kit prototype. I showed it at NARCON and got
positive feedback from all the attendees that stopped by my tables. I'm going to try
to get the kit out for NSL, but it may take a bit longer. Keep in mind I haven't
designed the decals yet. It's basically a Space fighter/bomber type rocket. This kit
will be the third in my Future/Fiction series (along with Predator and Starliner
DST).


John
--
John Dyer
www.redriverrocketry.com


Ah, stealth technology! Very forward thinking! :rolleyes:

[John Dyer]

Ah, stealth technology! Very forward thinking! :rolleyes:

Nope... just a loose nut behind the terminal... :cool:

I had to resize the photos...

John
--
John Dyer
www.redriverrocketry.com

[Ltvscout]

I'm attaching a foto of the next kit prototype. I showed it at NARCON and got positive feedback from all the attendees that stopped by my tables. I'm going to try
to get the kit out for NSL, but it may take a bit longer. Keep in mind I haven't designed the decals yet. It's basically a Space fighter/bomber type rocket. This kit will be the third in my Future/Fiction series (along with Predator and Starliner DST).
Yes, I saw this one as well there and it is very cool looking. I'm sure it will be a hot seller!

[ghrocketman]

That prototype looks really good !
Production plans/timing ??

[John Dyer]

That prototype looks really good !
Production plans/timing ??

I'm hoping to get it out for NSL. If not, then for NARAM. I gotta figure out what decals to put on it, and work up the instructions, Face card art, etc. THe usual stuff to get a kit productionalized...


John
--
John Dyer
www.redriverrocketry.com

[PaulK]

...
I'm attaching a foto of the next kit prototype. I showed it at NARCON and got
positive feedback from all the attendees that stopped by my tables. I'm going to try
to get the kit out for NSL, but it may take a bit longer. Keep in mind I haven't
designed the decals yet. It's basically a Space fighter/bomber type rocket. This kit
will be the third in my Future/Fiction series (along with Predator and Starliner
DST)....

Very nice, right up my alley John. Er, maybe when you release it, you could have a future/fiction series pak with all 3 kits. Specially priced, of course. :rolleyes:

-Paul

[John Dyer]

Very nice, right up my alley John. Er, maybe when you release it, you could have a future/fiction series pak with all 3 kits. Specially priced, of course. :rolleyes:

-Paul

Thats an interesting idea. I'll have to look into that possibility!

John
--
John Dyer

[JRThro]

Thanks Craig!
For all others, the button he's talking about is under "additional Options"...

I'm attaching a foto of the next kit prototype. I showed it at NARCON and got
positive feedback from all the attendees that stopped by my tables. I'm going to try
to get the kit out for NSL, but it may take a bit longer. Keep in mind I haven't
designed the decals yet. It's basically a Space fighter/bomber type rocket. This kit
will be the third in my Future/Fiction series (along with Predator and Starliner
DST).


John
--
John Dyer
www.redriverrocketry.com
That's a nice looking model, John! I think the jet engines are what make it.

Btw, I met you at NARCON too, although I didn't actually introduce myself.

Here's a picture of Jay Goemmer and me (on the left) from another thread here:
http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?p=6559#post6559

[EchoVictor]

John,

welcome to YORF!

It was nice meeting you and seeing your display at NARCON. I was there with my little ones and gave the presentation on PowerPoint. As per your comment of keeping me away if I had a ruler and a camera, I wasn't kidding about not needing the ruler.... :D

Anyways, I was also very intrigued by your design here. I have 2 questions;

1. Is that a string running along the body for a horizontal descent, ala Centuri SuperKits?

2. Speaking of Centuri, is that a cloned Raven/USS America nose cone up front I see?

Once again, welcome.

Later,
EV

[John Dyer]

That's a nice looking model, John! I think the jet engines are what make it.

Btw, I met you at NARCON too, although I didn't actually introduce myself.

Here's a picture of Jay Goemmer and me (on the left) from another thread here:
http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?p=6559#post6559

Yes, I remember you. It was great meeting you!

Thanks for the compliments. I hoipe to see you again soon - Perhaps at NSL, or NARAM????

John

[John Dyer]

John,

welcome to YORF!

It was nice meeting you and seeing your display at NARCON. I was there with my little ones and gave the presentation on PowerPoint. As per your comment of keeping me away if I had a ruler and a camera, I wasn't kidding about not needing the ruler.... :D

Anyways, I was also very intrigued by your design here. I have 2 questions;

1. Is that a string running along the body for a horizontal descent, ala Centuri SuperKits?

2. Speaking of Centuri, is that a cloned Raven/USS America nose cone up front I see?

Once again, welcome.

Later,
EV

Thanks!
Yes, thats a string or "lanyard" to help the model land flat. I have to figure out a better attach point at the rear - I have it looped around the motor clip. That sort of works, but I wouldn't want to sell a kit where the motor could pop out after ejection and the parachute opens.

The model is BT-50. I currently have a paper cockpit on top, so I can see the resemblence to the Rave/USS America. I've been trying to decide if a paper cockpit will work ok, or if I should go just with a decal for the cockpit.

John
---
John Dyer
www.redriverrocketry.com

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Fins go on tonight, paint and decals tomorrow, then hopefully the weather will cooperate and I'll get to fly this on Sunday. From a weather standpoint, tomorrow looks hideous. Rain and snow mix with wind and temps around 40. Sunday should only be slightly warmer, but partly sunny. I'd post some pics, but when I went to take them, my camera batteries were dead. Those rechargable batteries aren't what they're cracked up to be, but I guess they've saved me a few bucks in the last year. I'll get pics tomorrow.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

As promised, some pics. I made my first post-fire foray to VOA today. It was CO-OLD and occasionally windy, but the flying made the trip worthwhile. I made three flights with the RRR Starliner DST. I started with an A8-3, a great small field choice. Perfect flight and recovery, so I stepped up to a B6-4 on the next flight.
This time the flight was okay, but the Mylar parachute failed to open on recovery. It hit tail first on the gravel, and I was sure there would be some damage, but to my surprise, even the shroud was fine. This did nothing to change my mind about Mylar. Hate it.
For the third flight I went with the C6-5, and the flight was quite a shock. It was never stable from the time it left the rod. It turned three or four complete loops before crashing hard into the ground in front of a group of panicked kids. It smoked through the coast phase, then fired its ejection charge. Expecting the worst, I approached the crash site, only to find everything still flightworthy. No damage at all. I can only guess that the added weight of the C6-5 was too much for the limited fin area. The kit card shows the C6-5 as a recommended motor, but I'd be hard pressed to go above a B again.

[CPMcGraw]

For the third flight I went with the C6-5, and the flight was quite a shock. It was never stable from the time it left the rod. It turned three or four complete loops before crashing hard into the ground...

Bill,

Can you confirm some dimensions?

From the photo, I'm guessing this is a BT-50/BNC-50X design, about 17" long, with a 2" tailcone 2" long.

I whipped up a RKT file based on those dimensions, and fudged the fins to look close. That design should be stable with the C6-5, with a margin of 1.66. RocSim says such a design only needs about 22" of launch rod, and should have reached 1020'.

Perhaps the second flight weakened the shroud more than you realized. There might be a soft area where it hit, and that might have collapsed during the "C" flight, destabilizing the model.

See if the attached file is ballpark-close to the actual model...

BTW... Optimum "B" motor is actually the B4-4, not the B6-4. You'd get about 5 extra feet of altitude, and a Dv of 7 FPS (9 FPS with the B6...).

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Bill,

Can you confirm some dimensions?

From the photo, I'm guessing this is a BT-50/BNC-50X design, about 17" long, with a 2" tailcone 2" long.

I whipped up a RKT file based on those dimensions, and fudged the fins to look close. That design should be stable with the C6-5, with a margin of 1.66. RocSim says such a design only needs about 22" of launch rod, and should have reached 1020'.

Perhaps the second flight weakened the shroud more than you realized. There might be a soft area where it hit, and that might have collapsed during the "C" flight, destabilizing the model.

See if the attached file is ballpark-close to the actual model...

BTW... Optimum "B" motor is actually the B4-4, not the B6-4. You'd get about 5 extra feet of altitude, and a Dv of 7 FPS (9 FPS with the B6...).

17" seems a little long. Otherwise it's pretty close. I'll check the Red River site to see if they have the length listed.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Bill,

Can you confirm some dimensions?

From the photo, I'm guessing this is a BT-50/BNC-50X design, about 17" long, with a 2" tailcone 2" long.

I whipped up a RKT file based on those dimensions, and fudged the fins to look close. That design should be stable with the C6-5, with a margin of 1.66. RocSim says such a design only needs about 22" of launch rod, and should have reached 1020'.

Perhaps the second flight weakened the shroud more than you realized. There might be a soft area where it hit, and that might have collapsed during the "C" flight, destabilizing the model.

See if the attached file is ballpark-close to the actual model...

BTW... Optimum "B" motor is actually the B4-4, not the B6-4. You'd get about 5 extra feet of altitude, and a Dv of 7 FPS (9 FPS with the B6...).

15" is the actual size. I'll check the shroud when I get home in the morning, but I checked it pretty closely at the field. it was treated with thin CA, so it was fairly rigid.

[CPMcGraw]

15" is the actual size. I'll check the shroud when I get home in the morning, but I checked it pretty closely at the field. it was treated with thin CA, so it was fairly rigid.

Interesting stats on this model at 15"...

As long as the parachute is no more than 4" from the front of the tube, you will have a margin of 1.00 or better. At 1.5" back, the margin is 1.13. If that parachute managed to slide back farther than 4", the margin drops below 1.00. You should still be stable, since about half of the motor weight will burn off before it exits the rod, putting the model into the stable region.

I'm thinking you might have had the parachute shift rearward when that "C" motor kicked in, and that a weak area of the shroud collapsed under the G-load, which changed the aerodynamics. Not really one problem, but two working in tandem.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Interesting stats on this model at 15"...

As long as the parachute is no more than 4" from the front of the tube, you will have a margin of 1.00 or better. At 1.5" back, the margin is 1.13. If that parachute managed to slide back farther than 4", the margin drops below 1.00. You should still be stable, since about half of the motor weight will burn off before it exits the rod, putting the model into the stable region.

I'm thinking you might have had the parachute shift rearward when that "C" motor kicked in, and that a weak area of the shroud collapsed under the G-load, which changed the aerodynamics. Not really one problem, but two working in tandem.

I don't think this was the problem. This was a mylar chute with a fairly tight fit, quite a bit of wadding and shock cord. Not much room to move. I'm thinking you may have been right about unseen damage. Now I'm itching to check it out.
And I think it's still out in the van. :rolleyes:

[CPMcGraw]

I don't think this was the problem. This was a mylar chute with a fairly tight fit, quite a bit of wadding and shock cord. Not much room to move. I'm thinking you may have been right about unseen damage. Now I'm itching to check it out.
And I think it's still out in the van. :rolleyes:

Don't forget about the weight of that wadding (which I forgot to add in the RKT file...). The closer it is to the motor tube, the lower that margin goes. This may not have caused the problem using that "C" motor, but it may have contributed to it.

When you built that shroud, did you add any supportive centering rings inside it? or is it just one big ring at the very back edge?

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Don't forget about the weight of that wadding (which I forgot to add in the RKT file...). The closer it is to the motor tube, the lower that margin goes. This may not have caused the problem using that "C" motor, but it may have contributed to it.

When you built that shroud, did you add any supportive centering rings inside it? or is it just one big ring at the very back edge?

It has a support ring. The back end of the shroud is also flush with the back of the motor tube.

[John Dyer]

As promised, some pics. I made my first post-fire foray to VOA today. It was CO-OLD and occasionally windy, but the flying made the trip worthwhile. I made three flights with the RRR Starliner DST. I started with an A8-3, a great small field choice. Perfect flight and recovery, so I stepped up to a B6-4 on the next flight.
This time the flight was okay, but the Mylar parachute failed to open on recovery. It hit tail first on the gravel, and I was sure there would be some damage, but to my surprise, even the shroud was fine. This did nothing to change my mind about Mylar. Hate it.
For the third flight I went with the C6-5, and the flight was quite a shock. It was never stable from the time it left the rod. It turned three or four complete loops before crashing hard into the ground in front of a group of panicked kids. It smoked through the coast phase, then fired its ejection charge. Expecting the worst, I approached the crash site, only to find everything still flightworthy. No damage at all. I can only guess that the added weight of the C6-5 was too much for the limited fin area. The kit card shows the C6-5 as a recommended motor, but I'd be hard pressed to go above a B again.

Wow. I didn't have any problems with a C6-5 during deveolpment. I even increased to base the shroud to increased the static margin. I've tried to make sure that any of my kits are over stable to the point that anyone building will have no problems. :eek:

I'll start adding noseweights to the kits immeadiatly -

I'm really sorry you had this problem - send me your address and I'll send you a nose weight right away. Anyone else that bought a kit - send me your address, and I'll do the same for you. I have a few of the addresses, but want to make sure I get them out to everyone who bought a kit.

John

[John Dyer]

Don't forget about the weight of that wadding (which I forgot to add in the RKT file...). The closer it is to the motor tube, the lower that margin goes. This may not have caused the problem using that "C" motor, but it may have contributed to it.

When you built that shroud, did you add any supportive centering rings inside it? or is it just one big ring at the very back edge?


The model is designed so that the back of the shroud hangs beyond the back of the bodytube. The thin CA and the fins are designed to reinforce the shroud so that it can handle quite a bit of landing abuse.


I flew the model a number of times on B6-4's and C6-5's withou any issues. I'll begin adding a nose wight to the kit immeadiatly to add to the stability margin...

As I mentioned before I'll send a nose weight to the kit purchasers free of charge.

John

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Wow. I didn't have any problems with a C6-5 during deveolpment. I even increased to base the shroud to increased the static margin. I've tried to make sure that any of my kits are over stable to the point that anyone building will have no problems. :eek:

I'll start adding noseweights to the kits immeadiatly -

I'm really sorry you had this problem - send me your address and I'll send you a nose weight right away. Anyone else that bought a kit - send me your address, and I'll do the same for you. I have a few of the addresses, but want to make sure I get them out to everyone who bought a kit.

John

Not necessary. I "invested" in a mess of different sized screw eyes a few years back. I'll move up to a bigger one.
I checked the model out and all is fine structurally. The body tube has a slightly noticeable crimp, probably from the hard hit when the Mylar chute failed to fill and it streamered in hard. A little CA will take care of that. The shroud and fins are all fine.
As for the build itself, after I installed the large centering ring I was only able to take the shroud down so far. The edge of the shroud and the end of the motor hook are dead even with each other. Does that sound right to you, John?

[John Dyer]

Not necessary. I "invested" in a mess of different sized screw eyes a few years back. I'll move up to a bigger one.
I checked the model out and all is fine structurally. The body tube has a slightly noticeable crimp, probably from the hard hit when the Mylar chute failed to fill and it streamered in hard. A little CA will take care of that. The shroud and fins are all fine.
As for the build itself, after I installed the large centering ring I was only able to take the shroud down so far. The edge of the shroud and the end of the motor hook are dead even with each other. Does that sound right to you, John?


Yep. Thats how I designed it. It's meant to throw as much weight forwards as possible without adding weight to the nose. Interesting that the body tube crimped instead of the shroud. The shroud is designed to be tough (I use 110lb stock paper), but I didn't expect it to be stronger than the tube...


John

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Yep. Thats how I designed it. It's meant to throw as much weight forwards as possible without adding weight to the nose. Interesting that the body tube crimped instead of the shroud. The shroud is designed to be tough (I use 110lb stock paper), but I didn't expect it to be stronger than the tube...


John

Well, the body tube wasn't coated with thin CA. :rolleyes:

[John Dyer]

Well, the body tube wasn't coated with thin CA. :rolleyes:

Well, Duh...

Otherwise youd've glued yourself to the model...


John

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Well, Duh...

Otherwise youd've glued yourself to the model...


John

Well, not on Sunday. On Saturday night, who's to say? ;)

[snuggles]

Hi John, were you going to post pictures from NARCON???
I looked at the pics in my digital camera and realized I didn't get a pic of my beer bottle rocket.
Thanks,
Mark

[John Dyer]

Hi John, were you going to post pictures from NARCON???
I looked at the pics in my digital camera and realized I didn't get a pic of my beer bottle rocket.
Thanks,
Mark

Oh you have to have a foto with you and your beer bottle rocket ;)
You did a really good job on it. When do you plan to fly it?


John
--
John Dyer
www.redriverrocketry.com

[snuggles]

Thanks for the picture, I'm shooting for maybe later this month. I'll get launch pictures.
Thanks again.
Mark

[John Dyer]

Thanks for the picture, I'm shooting for maybe later this month. I'll get launch pictures.
Thanks again.
Mark


Cool Baens!

Take lots of fotos. Are you going to be at NSL or NARAM?

John

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

The weather didn't allow for flying this weekend, so I got a lot of work done on various projects I had sitting unfinished, including the decals for the Starliner DST. The decals really make this kit, and I hope this picture shows that. :cool:

[John Dyer]

The weather didn't allow for flying this weekend, so I got a lot of work done on various projects I had sitting unfinished, including the decals for the Starliner DST. The decals really make this kit, and I hope this picture shows that. :cool:

Well, weather in Dallas (actually Midlothian - 45 minutes outside Dallas) was a whole lot better than in your neck of the woods. We held a small NAR Local contest and I actually came out in first place overrall. Flying 1/8th A SuperRoc and Boost glide is a REAL challenge. I'm shocked at some of the altitudes we achieved with them 'Micro-Piff' motors :p

After all the contest flying was done, I flew my starliner with a C6-5 and it flew arrow straight. Of course, with a light Texas breeze (5 - 10 mph), I got a chance to get a little walk in to go get the model.

Not sure why your model had a flaky C6-5 flight.


John

[John Dyer]

The weather didn't allow for flying this weekend, so I got a lot of work done on various projects I had sitting unfinished, including the decals for the Starliner DST. The decals really make this kit, and I hope this picture shows that. :cool:

By the way -
You did a great job on the model! It looks really nice. Yes, the decals make the model, no doubt. It must be the angle - the nose looks a bit long ;)


John

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Well, weather in Dallas (actually Midlothian - 45 minutes outside Dallas) was a whole lot better than in your neck of the woods. We held a small NAR Local contest and I actually came out in first place overrall. Flying 1/8th A SuperRoc and Boost glide is a REAL challenge. I'm shocked at some of the altitudes we achieved with them 'Micro-Piff' motors :p

After all the contest flying was done, I flew my starliner with a C6-5 and it flew arrow straight. Of course, with a light Texas breeze (5 - 10 mph), I got a chance to get a little walk in to go get the model.

Not sure why your model had a flaky C6-5 flight.


John

Maybe I build heavier. :confused:

[John Dyer]

Maybe I build heavier. :confused:

Hmmm. Thats a possibility. As we discussed, I dropped another Starliner kit in the mail to you today - let me know how the build and flying goes on the new one.

John
--
John Dyer
www.redriverrockety.com

[John Dyer]

Maybe I build heavier. :confused:
For everyone else's info -
I've flown the Starliner several times with a C6-5 with no problems. I also have a rocksim file that validated the model is plenty stable. I've supplied Bill with another model to Bill for him to test with. At this point, I'm going to continue work on the next kit, and begin designing the next next kit. Any requests??? ;)


John

[Chris_Timm]

I'm going to continue work on the next kit, and begin designing the next next kit. Any requests??? ;)

How about this one (see pic below)?

A challenge to make stable though.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Any requests??? ;)


John

No Bomarcs. :eek:

[James Pierson]

Any requests???

Where do I begin?? Vintage 50's missile stuff for starters. :rolleyes:

*Mace Missile
*Houndog Missile
*Regulas Missile
*Anything with Ramjets is cool! :D

James Pierson
NAR#77907

[John Dyer]

How about this one (see pic below)?

A challenge to make stable though.
What on earth is that thang?

One things for certain, it's be more stable than me... :D

John

[Tau Zero]

*Anything with Ramjets is cool! :D
(crabby voice) "Here's yer freakin' ramjet... on a NOSE CONE!!!" :eek: ;) :D

Number 3:
http://home.earthlink.net/~gomero/rocketdesigns.html


Cheers (chuckling),

--Jay

[Tau Zero]

A challenge to make stable though.*Serious* nose weight. And making the body tube longer would help. (Sure, it wouldn't be scale, but *hey*... [shrugs] It could be "*Inspired* by an actual missile.") :cool: :D

It's too late to fire up RockSim tonight. :p [UPDATE: But apparently Craig McGraw was "Johnny on the spot," as my parents would say. :cool: ]


Cheers,

--Jay

[PaulK]

.... Any requests??? ;)John

John,

I have a weak spot for retro sci-fi rockets. Thanks for asking. :)

-Paul

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

A challenge to make stable though.

WOW! If I had a dime for ever time THAT appeared on one of my report cards over the years......... :rolleyes:

[CPMcGraw]

*Serious* nose weight. And making the body tube longer would help. (Sure, it wouldn't be scale, but *hey*... [shrugs] It could be "*Inspired* by an actual missile.") :cool: :D

It's too late to fire up RockSim tonight. :p


Cheers,

--Jay

I tried putting together a BT-55 version in RocSim...

I got margins that spanned -3000 to +3000, depending on how I held my tongue and if I stood one-footed on a stool to scratch my other foot on Tuesday...:p

The margins were just that whacked out.

[Update #1] The issue with my version seems to be in RocSim's inability to properly handle that nose cone. I attempted to combine two transitions - one simple conical section at the front of an elliptical transition section. This combination completely freaks RocSim out. In the simulation runs I get "nan" -- meaning Not A Number -- in the Dv and altitude columns.

RocSim doesn't know how to handle a transition as the front piece. It has to be a nose cone. I'll try again and hopefully have some numbers to show...

[CPMcGraw]

OK, folks!

Believe it or not, that "yellow and black ramjet of death" will actually fly as a model. Once I figured out what RocSim was telling me, it was possible to simulate this beast. Not too shabby performance, in spite of the needed weight and the excessive drag.

Requires a D12-3, and it will fly to over 400'...

Length: 14.5"
Diameter: 1.32" (BT-55)
Fin Span: 3.32" (BT-80)
Weight: 3.8 oz (includes 2.125 oz nose weight)

D12-3.....428'.....2-4 FPS Dv.....613 FPS/S.....48" launch rod, 3/16"

And to think someone dreamed up this nightmare before the days of RocSim!

[Ltvscout]

OK, folks!

Believe it or not, that "yellow and black ramjet of death" will actually fly as a model. Once I figured out what RocSim was telling me, it was possible to simulate this beast. Not too shabby performance, in spite of the needed weight and the excessive drag.
I'll bet Sandman could easily make the nosecone for anyone interested in building this model.

[Chris_Timm]

OK, folks!

Believe it or not, that "yellow and black ramjet of death" will actually fly as a model. Once I figured out what RocSim was telling me, it was possible to simulate this beast. !

Wow! That was quick.
I have a heck of a time getting rocsim to do even the simplest of goofy ideas.

How would the design work if you replaced the ramjet cone assembly with a bt-20 motor mount tube that extended all the way to the tip of the model, and use the small 3/4" tall bt-20 apollo CM looking pnc cone as the tip of the ramjet. Then change the outside of the ramjet to a hollow ogive transition (like a pnc cone chopped off) that would be free flowing thru the bt-55 tube like an augmentor but in this case, just a flow-thru passage way.

The motor is still in its own bt-20 sealed tube.

Would rocsim recognize any effects of flow-thru air on stability or drag?

Oh yeah, the missile is the PA-6 from the Vought Heritage Museum website.
It was launched from a F4U Corsair (BaaBaaBlacksheep plane).

[EchoVictor]

Or you could just use a PNC-55D. There are a couple of hobby shops near me that still have a spare or two, and I know that Moldin' Oldies makes it as well.

Later,
EV

BTW, based on Craig's comment, I now offically christen this design as the "Yabrod" (Yellow And Black Ramjet Of Death) :D

[Chris_Timm]

Or you could just use a PNC-55D. I know that Moldin' Oldies makes it as well.

That he does.
I bought several for Talos models.
It takes quite a bit a weight to get it to balance at mid-span of the third set of fins!
But it flys great on C6-3's and B6-2's.
Tends to break a fin on landing though.

[CPMcGraw]

How would the design work if you replaced the ramjet cone assembly with a bt-20 motor mount tube that extended all the way to the tip of the model, and use the small 3/4" tall bt-20 apollo CM looking pnc cone as the tip of the ramjet.

The PNC-20Y is the Yankee cone. BMS and SEMROC have balsa versions, and Estes still produces the plastic version. I used the plastic version in this file so I could move the ballast as far forward as possible.

...Then change the outside of the ramjet to a hollow ogive transition (like a pnc cone chopped off) that would be free flowing thru the bt-55 tube like an augmentor but in this case, just a flow-thru passage way.

You'd need to change all of the centering rings to fins, and mount them internally. I didn't show this version that way; I just used simple centering rings. The large elliptical cone could be our old friend the 55AO, but you'd need to use a balsa version as the plastic version from Estes may not be in production anymore.

The motor is still in its own bt-20 sealed tube.

Correct for this version. I had to reduce the parachute size to a simple 12" diameter to do this, however. That was the advantage of having a full 55-size cone at the top that would blow off. You could fit that 18" chute into the 55-size tube without binding.

Would rocsim recognize any effects of flow-thru air on stability or drag?

I'll find out on the next version of the simulation.

Oh yeah, the missile is the PA-6 from the Vought Heritage Museum website.
It was launched from a F4U Corsair (BaaBaaBlacksheep plane).

Post-WWII timeframe, right? Looks like early-to-mid 50's vintage...

[Chris_Timm]

How about this ramjet missile?

[Chris_Timm]

This one is tail-heavy!

[Tau Zero]

This one is tail-heavy!It kind of looks like a Shrox design channeled by Werner von Braun. :eek: ;) :D :cool:

Cheers,

--Jay

[Tau Zero]

Believe it or not, that "yellow and black ramjet of death" will actually fly as a model.(chuckling) "Hey, kids! Be the first on your block to fly your very own YABROD!" :eek: ;) :cool:


[Update #1] The issue with my version seems to be in RocSim's inability to properly handle that nose cone. I attempted to combine two transitions - one simple conical section at the front of an elliptical transition section. This combination completely freaks RocSim out. [SNIP] RocSim doesn't know how to handle a transition as the front piece. It has to be a nose cone.Craig, here's how I mutated one of Sandman's ramjet nose cones into my BT-55 1.36X Estes Wolverine upscale. Basically, the "pointy" part is the nose cone, while the "flat" section is a transition, and the "curvy" nose cone is actually a "reversed boattail" transition.

I think this was one of the first designs that I modeled using RockSim 7 (which finally allowed asymmetrical fin sets). RS guru Bruce Levison was kind enough to tweak the file, too. :cool:

I did something similar (breaking complex nose cone shapes into separate parts) on the Estes Wasp #1930 and "Pioneer" files elsewhere here on YORF.

http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showpost.php?p=2642&postcount=18

http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showpost.php?p=6858&postcount=33


Cheers,

--Jay

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

It kind of looks like a Shrox design channeled by Werner von Braun. :eek: ;) :D :cool:

Cheers,

--Jay

Oh yeah! Rocketry with Uncle Werner. It was on channel 9 after Captain Kangaroo. :rolleyes:

[EchoVictor]

"Rocketry with Uncle Werner"?

Damn! All our stupid UHF station gave us was Gary Gnu and "The Great Space Coaster". :rolleyes:

Later,
EV

[Doug Sams]

"Rocketry with Uncle Werner"?

Damn! All our stupid UHF station gave us was Gary Gnu and "The Great Space Coaster". :rolleyes: This inspires me to want to rant. In the wake of discovering that we lagged behind the Russians in space, much emphasis was placed on science education, and much money was spent to make it happen. As a result, my grade school was wired with a cable and TV's were placed in every classroom.

The "cable" went to a large antenna which could only pick up two stations: the PBS affiliate in Louisville, and the local Kentucky Educational Television network (KET) affiliate in my home town, which pretty much broadcasted the same exact programming as PBS, at the same exact time :(

Anyway, as is so often the case, when our society is catalyzed to do something, by dangoes, we do it, but while we're at it, we do all kinds of other stuff, too.

Those TVs turned out to be about worthless. NFW could they turn us first graders into rocket scientists or anything else much useful. We got about 30 minutes of TV time a week, and the programming not only failed to teach anything beneficial, but did even worse and taught misinformation.

This was 1967, and I was in first grade. We got some programs about the space program...probably produced in about 1960.

Anyway, I remember seeing a program telling us about the moon rocket. The Nova rocket. It was 5 times more powerful than the Saturn V, and it would be taking us to the moon.

Well, by 1967, even us hillbilly Kentuckians knew the Saturn V was the moon vehicle.

Thousands of dollars spent to wire the building so that us 6yo rednecks could learn old, stale and incorrect info. I seem to recall those TV's spent the next 11 years holding down the floor in the corner of our classrooms. They quickly proved to be of little use in the classrooms. Seems we spent the money on the TV's but nobody bothered to produce the requisite programming to go with. Your tax dollars at work...

Doug

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

We got to watch Hank Aaron hit #714 off of Jack Billingham on opening day, 1974. Other than that, I don't remember any in-the-classroom television at all.

[Eagle3]

How about this ramjet missile?

This one is tail-heavy!

These are two Project Bumblebee missiles that never went to production. Triton and Rigel IIRC. I wish I could find some dimensioned drawings for both of these though I think I have a drawing of a Rigel wind tunnel model. :-/

[JRThro]

We got to watch Hank Aaron hit #714 off of Jack Billingham on opening day, 1974. Other than that, I don't remember any in-the-classroom television at all.
All we got were old filmstrips.

Uphill, both ways, in the snow, etc.

[John Dyer]

Well, now that the dust from NSL has settled, I'd like to announce that I've released my newest kit - Stratos. Please take a look:


http://www.redriverrocketry.com/rockets.php


John

[JSP]

Hey guys,
I just wanted to say that I flew the Starliner at NSL in VERY high winds with no problem. It had a very very slight wobble during boost, but no more than a lot of the "normal" rockets (probably due to the wind). The problem came when I was heading home with my teenage daughter in the back seat. She was sleeping and tossing and turning, and I think she nailed the Starliner. It has a pretty good crimp in the tube now (AAARRRRGGGHHH!!!). I guess I'll help my wife start her Starliner now...