Saturn 1b rebuild

[MarkB.]

While I'm waiting for various solvents to dry on the R-7 project . . .

Here's the Centuri Saturn 1b rebuild:

Picture 1 shows what I got on eBay: a fairly badly damaged Centuri Saturn Ib for $25 bucks + $8 shipping. What did I get? The 24" and 16" Centuri parachutes are still rolled up inside and in good condition. The LM cover and service module are caved in and need replacing. Two thrusters are missing as is the LES. The BT-80 S-IVb is in good shape and complete but is badly yellowed.

On the lower stage, one of the tubes is dented, one has rodent gnawings and of course, it's missing six fins and the lower launch lug. The lower plastic wrap is missing chunks here and there because of tramatic removal of the six fins. Interally, the tube which transfers the gasses from the cluster to the parachute section is badly damaged and unwound and will need replacing. On of the antenna panels is missing.

Picture 2 shows initial disassembly. Gentle rocking popped the BT-80 second stage section off cleanly revealing the damaged core tube. I was able to pry the capsule off the already damaged service module.

Picture 3 shows disassembly complete and rebuild beginning. I carefully peeled the crushed paper transition and used it as a pattern to cut a new one. I've cut off the damage core tube. The white Antenna panel replacement in the middle is scratch build using some left-over sheet plastic. The BT-58 service module tube was internally damaged and will need replacing before I put on the shroud. I've already got replacement tubing and couplers coming from Semroc . . . .

So what's left? Six fins, an LES and decals. I'm going to contact Estes about an LES from the new Saturn V. I'm going to email Sandman about some 1/100 Saturn 1b decals. And I have no earthly idea what I'm going to do about the fins .

I spent about six bucks at Semroc plus maybe a dollar for spares so far. I'm way ahead of the cost curve for a New-In-Box purchase.

[ghrocketman]

Estes has already stated that they are not supporting capsule spares for the Saturn V kits.
No LES will be available.
Best choice would probably be the One-Piece "Moldin Oldies" 1/100 Apollo Capsule/LES/tower spike.

Good luck with the project, but I still think one would be better off using that thing as kindling for a fire.

It will be a big-time pain refinishing it to look decent when all assembled as well.

[Questor]

Yours looks worst than mine. :eek: It is one I picked up from a rocketeer leaving the hobby. I have similar damage to the upper shroud. Have missing fins. Tower and rcs nossles missing on CMS. Also the model was seperated and stuffer tube was ripped apart. Various dings and dents on tubes. I've attached photo of my Centuri Saturn 1B that needs work. :)

It's a winter restore project. My thoughts on some stuff is decals from Sandman including the CMS decals in 1/100 scale. He has some nice ones for 1/70 scale. Casting the fins in resin. Readjusting the cp/cg as necessary. Mark Bundrick did a article on restoring a Saturn 1B in his club's newslwetter quite a while back and had some good tips. I will see if I can get a reference on that and post.

I look forward to you progess and postings. Please, plenty of photos.

[Bill]

Good luck with the project, but I still think one would be better off using that thing as kindling for a fire.

It will be a big-time pain refinishing it to look decent when all assembled as well.


There is one good thing about rebuilding one rather than a pricy MIB - they will likely be flown rather than just put up on a shelf to collect dust.


Bill

[cas2047]

There is one good thing about rebuilding one rather than a pricy MIB - they will likely be flown rather than just put up on a shelf to collect dust.


Bill

The other thing is that it gives some peope, me included, personal satisfaction, being able to rebuild something. It's another aspect of the hobby that some people really enjoy.

That's why I really like rocketry, there's something for everyone.

[jeffyjeep]

This thread is SO interesting! I guess Moldin Oldies may be the only way to get a resin CM and LES in 1/100 scale. I'll check my stuff and my SV kits and see if by some miracle I have a spare CM and LES. If I do, you're welcome to it.

Of course, there's also scratch-building................

[jeffyjeep]

Yours looks worst than mine. :eek: It is one I picked up from a rocketeer leaving the hobby. I have similar damage to the upper shroud. Have missing fins. Tower and rcs nossles missing on CMS. Also the model was seperated and stuffer tube was ripped apart. Various dings and dents on tubes. I've attached photo of my Centuri Saturn 1B that needs work. :)

It's a winter restore project. My thoughts on some stuff is decals from Sandman including the CMS decals in 1/100 scale. He has some nice ones for 1/70 scale. Casting the fins in resin. Readjusting the cp/cg as necessary. Mark Bundrick did a article on restoring a Saturn 1B in his club's newslwetter quite a while back and had some good tips. I will see if I can get a reference on that and post.

I look forward to you progess and postings. Please, plenty of photos.
I'm assuming your's is 1/70 scale. I have several spare fin "skins" if you need some.

[sandman]

I'm assuming your's is 1/70 scale. I have several spare fin "skins" if you need some.

I thought it was 1/100th scale.

BTW, I have both the 1/100th and 1/70th scale decals up on my site now.

[jeffyjeep]

Oh, I got confused. I thought the picture of Questor's was of a different one AND in 1/70 scale.

[Questor]

The Centuri Saturn 1B was 1/100th scale. The picture I posted is of a Centuri Saturn 1B. Sandman had decals for 1/70 scale the last time I checked. I did not see 1/100 scale decals. I was going to special order the 1/100 scale, but Sandman has now posted he has that scale available. Thanks Sandman.

Back in the pre-mid nineties Estes also had 1/100th scale Saturn 1B and V. I think Apogee was the first with an 1/70th scale kit.

[jeffyjeep]

Oh. Must be those squares AREN'T 1"x1". :o

[Questor]

They are 0.5 by 0.5 inch squares on the cutting mat. ;)

[Bill]

This thread is SO interesting! I guess Moldin Oldies may be the only way to get a resin CM and LES in 1/100 scale. I'll check my stuff and my SV kits and see if by some miracle I have a spare CM and LES. If I do, you're welcome to it.

Of course, there's also scratch-building................


Here's a thought...Semroc was working on a 1/100 Saturn V kit. You might see if they have a CM/LES available.


Bill

[sandman]

Sandman had decals for 1/70 scale the last time I checked. I did not see 1/100 scale decals. I was going to special order the 1/100 scale, but Sandman has now posted he has that scale available. Thanks Sandman.



That's because I only put them up there about an hour ago. :o

Don't forget the Service Module wrap! ;)

[ghrocketman]

Sandman,
Where are the 1/100 SM decals on your site ?
I only find the 1/70th, which I already have.

[sandman]

Sandman,
Where are the 1/100 SM decals on your site ?
I only find the 1/70th, which I already have.

The 1/100th Service Module wraps are right below the Saturn V decal set.

[MarkB.]

Decals and Service Module wrap duly ordered from Sandman.

I'm very disappointed Estes is taking that position on the replacement parts for the LES. 40 odd years worth of Estes Saturn Vs and I'll bet every one that's ever launched could use a replacement LES. I gave up and got a Skylab nose cone from Sandman a couple of years ago. I have a Sirius/Moldin' (the new one) that I may use. Goodness knows it is tough and will add some nose weight.

Make no mistake, this Saturn 1B will be launched, and often.

And if anybody was wondering the Service Module tube is BT-58 and the first stage core tube is Semroc Series 11.

[cas2047]

I'm very disappointed Estes is taking that position on the replacement parts for the LES. 40 odd years worth of Estes Saturn Vs and I'll bet every one that's ever launched could use a replacement LES.

I have to agree with you on that. How much trouble would it be for Estes to kit the LES...? I wonder what the reason is behind the decision not to do so...

[Earl]

Here's a thought...Semroc was working on a 1/100 Saturn V kit. You might see if they have a CM/LES available.


Bill


Semroc does have the 1/100 CM, but it is balsa. Nicely finished it would be hard to distinguish from the original Centuri plastic version.

Semroc also has the LES tubing and nosecones at 1/100 scale (forget the exact part numbers....Carl or Sheryl would know).

That would only leave the tower truss work to recreate from scratch, which would be a challenge but certainly not impossible. Evergreen Scale Models and probably Plastruct makes the correct diameter styrene rod stock to use on that.

Earl

[MarkB.]

Well, Guys:

Through the miracle that is the Postal Service, I got my Semroc order in the mail today. Series 11 tubing and coupler (hey, this isn't my first rodeo) and BT-58 tubing and coupler.

I added a little to the BT-58 to correct for the too-short Service Module so I can use Sandman's chrome SM wrap.

Pictures in a little bit . . .

[cas2047]

Well, Guys:

Through the miracle that is the Postal Service, I got my Semroc order in the mail today.

Semroc has got something going on with the Postal Service. You seem to get things from them almost before you order them. I think they have incriminating pictures of the Post Master General or something. ;)

[jeffyjeep]

No, I think they planted a "nanny cam" somewhere near my bench so they can tell what I'm about to order.
Let's see, now where's that camera....
is in the Scotch decanter?

Nope.

Hmmm, better check again.....

Nope.

Wait, once more..... :)

[cas2047]

No, I think they planted a "nanny cam" somewhere near my bench so they can tell what I'm about to order.


LOL! Maybe that is it... I mean all of our computers have the little web cams built in now... so you could be on to something... :D ;)

[MarkB.]

OK guys

Picture 1 shows restoration work partially accomplished: I've spliced a new piece onto the core of the first stage. This was a 3" piece of Semroc Series 11 tubing. Also shown is the spliced piece of BT-58 for the Service Module with the capule sorta precariously balanced on the end. The Centuri measurement for the Service Module was 1.75 inches but it should be closer to 1.875 to fit Sandman's wrap so that's what I cut it. The transition is card stock cut using the original piece as a pattern.

The second picture is my answer for Estes being weasels about the LES pieces for Saturn Vs: Skylab! Nose from Sandman, BT-80 from BMS, wraps from raiding my wife's scrapbooking stuff, balsa fittings from scrap.

For the Saturn 1B LES I may look for a Little Joe II kit on eBay or elsewhere or I may use the Sirius/Moldin' one I already have.

Still thinking about how to address the six missing fins . . . .

[Questor]

I thought Skylab itself was launched on a Saturn V with mission crews sent up on a Saturn 1B.

[sandman]

OK guys

Picture 1 shows restoration work partially accomplished: I've spliced a new piece onto the core of the first stage. This was a 3" piece of Semroc Series 11 tubing. Also shown is the spliced piece of BT-58 for the Service Module with the capule sorta precariously balanced on the end. The Centuri measurement for the Service Module was 1.75 inches but it should be closer to 1.875 to fit Sandman's wrap so that's what I cut it. The transition is card stock cut using the original piece as a pattern.

The second picture is my answer for Estes being weasels about the LES pieces for Saturn Vs: Skylab! Nose from Sandman, BT-80 from BMS, wraps from raiding my wife's scrapbooking stuff, balsa fittings from scrap.

For the Saturn 1B LES I may look for a Little Joe II kit on eBay or elsewhere or I may use the Sirius/Moldin' one I already have.

Still thinking about how to address the six missing fins . . . .

The Skylab looks beautiful!

For the fins, go to JimZ's and download the patterns for the 1/70th scale kit.

Take than to a copy machine and reduce them down by 70%.

Print them on cardstock or use the patterns to make solid balsa fins.

[Bill]

Still thinking about how to address the six missing fins . . . .


Do this http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=7962 on a slightly smaller scale.


Bill

[Bill]

Do this http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=7962 on a slightly smaller scale.



Or make a mold with one of the fins you have left and cast a set of replacements with resin.


Bill

[jeffyjeep]

I thought Skylab itself was launched on a Saturn V with mission crews sent up on a Saturn 1B.
It was. And it was the last SV to fly.

[ghrocketman]

Buying a 1/100 LJII kit on ebay is NOT an even close to an economical solution to getting the capsule and LES for this restoration.
Those kits ALWAYS go for over $30 and sometimes approach $50 on a good day. Seems a bit steep for a 1/100 capsule/LES.
Get the Moldin Oldies one for Sirius.

[MarkB.]

Well guys,

We finally had a day for painting: high around 70, no wind, lots of sunshine.

After filling the seams with wood filler, I primed the new shroud and BT-58 section. If you look carefully, you can see I was able to salvage the original metal wire for rigging the parachute. I also sanded bevel ends to the launch lug in an attempt to get it to look less like a launch lug and more like a conduit or other 3-D piece. I've also sanded off the original decals on the S-IVb body. My plan is to go ahead and refinish the S-IVb and shroud while I (slowly) build up new fins out of sheet plastic and then join the booster and the upper stage after they've been painted.

I received my new decals from Sandman and they look awesome.

I'm going to use my Sirius/Moldin' one-piece capsule/LES unless something else turns up, mostly becuase this is going to be a flyer.

When I get a little farther along, I'll post pictures of the new fin build-up.

[cas2047]

The work on the Sat V and the Vostok components both look great Mark!

[MarkB.]

OK Guys,

I haven't abandon the project. After much thought, I decided to build up new fins out of .015 sheet styrene. Due to my own clumsiness, the two remaining fins were tramatically removed which allowed me to trace them. The picture shows ten of the twelve fin sides laid out on the plastic; a few passes with the x-acto knife and badda-bing, fin sides.

Also note I got a single coat of white primer on the S-IVb before the snow started.

I'll finish the fins this week.

[Questor]

I'm glad you didn't stop. Since you started this project which I've been following. I just ordered some of the components I needed to start work on my restortation. Keep up the good work and thanks for some of the ideas.

Questor

[MarkB.]

Just a quick update:

The picture shows all six replacement fins; they are build up out of .015 styrene, the tips of the fins are a stack of scrap strips of the styrene. The next step is to glue on the other side of the fin using lots of clothespins. This fin replacement has turned out alot easier than I thought, it's just very repetitive to cut out pieces for six fins.

Hopefully, by next weekend, I'll have the fins on the rocket . . . .

[MarkB.]

Wow!

Its been four months since that last post. I finally finished the Russian spacecraft, so back to the S-1b.

As I noted above, the two remaining original fins were tramatically removed as a result of my own clumsiness. On the plus side, with them off the rocket, I was able to refine the shape of my replacements; on the minus side, I realized that the best way to proceed was to replace all of the fins, so I made four more sides and two fins worth of internal parts.

In the picture you see the S-Ib on the stand. If you look closely you can see how beat-up the section where the fins were has become. My plan is to glue the new fins on and use my old pal Bondo to smooth the area over.

Leaning on the stand you see the original fins. On the top left of the cutting matt are the first two complete fins. The next two are clamped with clothespins and the remaining four are at the bottom of the matt awaiting assembly.

What you can't see is the S-IVb stage which has had its launch lug moved to the correct location and has been smoothed, reprimed and painted white using new Rustoleum Gloss White. The contrast with the badly yellowed paint on the S-1b stage is stark.

[MarkB.]

OK Guys,

We have the light at the end of the tunnel! All eight brand new fins glued on along with the new lower lug. Now it's time for a little Bondo to patch the wrap where the original fins were tramatically removed and maybe some smoothing to the scalloped section between the tanks.

Now that I've done them, I have to say the making the fins out of thin plastic worked very well. But rather than piece them together as I did, I suggest that a single piece be cut and folded that includes the sides, tip and root edges which are then assembled by folding over a metal ruler and glued with liquid cement. They weight marginally more than the original vacuform fins, but not by much.

Also compare the badly yellowed paint on the lower section and the bright gloss of the Rust-o-leum on the upper. I decided to build SA-210, the Last Saturn, so the whole lower section will be gloss white without the black tanks. I already have the decals from Sandman.

[mojo1986]

She's lookin' GREAT! I LOVE to see rebuilds!

Joe

[cas2047]

It's coming along great MarkB! Very nice!

[rocketguy101]

Verrrry nice! I love rebuilds, the challenge to salvage an old rocket is very satisfying to me. I don't know how I missed this thread until today, but I have a build thread on cloning this model here (http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=5065). We covered the Semroc tube sizes and travails of the LES tower there.

[Randy]

Great thread! I think rebuilds are sometimes more enjoyable than the original.

Randy
www.vernarockets.com

[mkrobel]

Nice work!