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Earl
02-27-2011, 11:09 PM
Just FYI for interested collectors. I don't have the URL for it, but a quick search on eBay under Enerjet should do the trick (not my kit nor do I know the lister).

Kit still in bag WITH F52 motor.

Will certainly be interesting to see what this gem goes for. In the photos section of the listing the lister shows this kit inside a larger container FULL of other bagged Enerjet kits...this form of 'teasing/torture' is not for the faint of heart Enerjet collector.... :o

Earl

pantherjon
02-28-2011, 07:34 AM
Link (http://cgi.ebay.com/Enerjet-Kit-Motor-Rare-MIP-Astron-Centuri-Estes-/150570170622?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item230eae78fe)

Ltvscout
02-28-2011, 08:51 AM
Whoa! Check out the pic of the box full of old Enerjet kits!

Jerry Irvine
02-28-2011, 10:39 AM
Based on a couple of observations I made I think they are SPEV's. That is to say not original production kits, but either end of line kits or perhaps packaged from spare parts and some aftermarket parts added to complete the kits.

To begin with that photo of the 1340 seems to have original instructions/literature, but a pink fin unit was not used with any I saw nor would Lee put an F52-5 in a 1340 kit. He would be more likely to put an F52-12 if going to CA or F67-14 if going anywhere else, or a G76-12 if going to a true "sounding rocket" customer.

The listing says "MIP" not "NIP", so it is not false advertising either, because who even knows what MIP means?

Jerry

foamy
02-28-2011, 11:19 AM
The listing says "MIP" not "NIP", so it is not false advertising either, because who even knows what MIP means?

"Mint, In Package" is my best guess.

The same fella (?) has a bunch of Centuri Mini Motors up as well.

Shreadvector
02-28-2011, 01:04 PM
Garden City New York.

On Long Island.

See page 4: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ModelRocketry/Model_Rocketry_v03n09_07-71.pdf

I know who lived there.

Der Red Max
02-28-2011, 01:39 PM
Garden City New York.

On Long Island.

See page 4: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ModelRocketry/Model_Rocketry_v03n09_07-71.pdf

I know who lived there.How many photos & mylar sheets did you sell?

Shreadvector
02-28-2011, 01:53 PM
How many photos & mylar sheets did you sell?

It was not me. I had my father drive me over there (too young to drive) thinking it was a rocket company. It was a house.

foamy
02-28-2011, 03:03 PM
Okay, what's the punch line?

Shreadvector
02-28-2011, 03:35 PM
Okay, what's the punch line?

"He kept the tips."

Earl
02-28-2011, 07:09 PM
Whoa! Check out the pic of the box full of old Enerjet kits!

To be honest, that photo in the listing was one of the prime reasons for my original post (see original post). Certainly, a 1340 listing is 'news', but that impressive pile of Enerjet kits in the box was the REAL highlight to me.

Earl

P.S.--I noticed a bit earlier that he has updated the listing to say that the fin unit and nosecone color were in fact NOT pink as they appear in his photos and that he would be posting some better photos tonight.

Jerry, did this kit come packaged originally with a motor included? That seemed a bit odd to me, but was not really sure what the norm was for this kit.

Earl

Jerry Irvine
02-28-2011, 07:27 PM
Jerry, did this kit come packaged originally with a motor included? That seemed a bit odd to me, but was not really sure what the norm was for this kit.

Earl
Not the ones I saw. They were in plastic bags as were the final production Enerjet kits. Original kits came in nice display boxes. As did later motors. I don't see many photos of Enerjet motor boxes, but we should.

The Enerjet 1340 had a thicker wall tube and associated molded nose cone. That's the first thing I would check for.

The other kits look about right. Again later months of production after the boxes were expended and the line was failing financially already. Too bad too, that not enough people "understood" how to use the product.

I really find an F52-5 in the package as odd.

Jerry

snaquin
02-28-2011, 11:34 PM
I really find an F52-5 in the package as odd.

Jerry

Even with a fairly heavy payload in it's small 8" payload section it would still be zipping along at a pretty good clip when that short five seconds was up .....

Looks like the motor mount tube included with this 1340 kit is a black or dark brown phenolic sleeve? I would have thought that part would have been regular tubing like the airframe.

.

Earl
03-01-2011, 10:40 AM
The lister did post additional photos and made an additional statement about the authenticity of the kit. The photos are a bit more revealing, but it is still somewhat hard to make out everything in the bag.

Steve, I'm kinda like you....I don't quite get the black tube in the bag. In the additional photos added last night, it appears this is the payload tube, but I have never seen these tubes come with a black outside finish. Generally, they were the brown or white glassine finish.

Again, I'll defer to Jerry to add any additional insight on tube colors, in particular for the heavier walled tubes that came with these kits.

I'm also trying to determine the exact nature of the payload tube plastic connector. I have an original copy of the 1340 product sheet ( just like the one in this kit bag) and it indicates the exposed length of tha payload connector to be only one tenth of an inch. I've never seen even a photo of one of those connectors, but it is really hard to make out any real details of the connector in this kit bag.

Earl

ghrocketman
03-01-2011, 12:09 PM
He has 2 paks of B4-3M and C5-3S motors up for auction too.
I'm actually full up of C5-3's, but the B4-3M 13mm motors are interesting.
A B4-0M or B4-6M would be more useful.

Jerry Irvine
03-01-2011, 12:12 PM
I have never seen these tubes come with a black outside finish. Generally, they were the brown or white glassine finish.

Again, I'll defer to Jerry to add any additional insight on tube colors, in particular for the heavier walled tubes that came with these kits.

I'm also trying to determine the exact nature of the payload tube plastic connector. I have an original copy of the 1340 product sheet ( just like the one in this kit bag) and it indicates the exposed length of tha payload connector to be only one tenth of an inch. I've never seen even a photo of one of those connectors, but it is really hard to make out any real details of the connector in this kit bag.

EarlThe first kit to use the plastic fin unit, plastic nose cone and plastic tube coupler was the Phoenix Bird. The fins were blue. The tubes were white and it had a silver stick on decal.

About the same time Enerjet (also Centuri) made the 1340 which used Mini-Max tube (also Centuri) 1.25 x 1.34 x 12" brown with glassine for the 1340 airframe and a red molded Phoenix Bird fin unit. The motor cost more than the rocket.

The nose cone and coupler mold were different for Phoenix Bird and 1340. The tube thicknesses were very different, 1.30 x 1.34 x 12" for Centuri (now Estes BT-56).

The coupler on the 1340 had a short section the diameter of the tube OD about 1/10" long (recall it being a bit more). The Phoenix Bird variant had about an inch long section with an access plate image in the mold for added value. Technical sounding customers didn't care about that. They wanted strength and performance.

The fin unit's "marginal power" turned out to be a BATES 29mm 160G80 motor. Sometimes it would shred, sometimes not.

The 1340 parts were all molded in red.

I have not personally seen an Enerjet motor packaged in a bag with a kit but was never an official sounding rocket customer either. I posted a letter in CRm I received from Enerjet when I tried to become one. It's on the CRm website.

I hope this helps. I am not discouraging anyone from bidding because complete or not the instructions, plastic parts, and correct parts are themselves worth it for a rare find. Correct mating parts could be made if needed.

I have asked Estes about remolding the 1340 parts but bad to no noises followed. They seem to have an inventory control problem on old molds. :D At least they are nowhere near as bad as Wal-Mart!

Jerry

I don't recall, but the 12" lengths might be 9" or something.

Earl
03-01-2011, 08:03 PM
The Centuri Argus kit, intro'd in the 1973 catalog (which came out in latter '72) came with the red fin can. But it did not use either the 'consumer' plastic connector or the Enerjet plastic connector. It preceded the Phoenix Bird, best I recall.

So Jerry, I guess then you are saying because of the thicker tubes used in the 1340 kit, the plastic cone and coupler in the 1340 kit were NOT the same as used in the consumer kits? I knew the plastic coupler exposed section was different between the two versions, but I didn't realize the cones were different too. I guess they would have to be due to the thicker tube walls.

Looks like bids are climbing. There was a sealed, boxed F67 on eBay a couple weeks ago that reached $200+ before ebay pulled the listing....on the last day before bidding was due to end. Motor package appeared pristine from the photos. Don't know whose listing it was.

Earl

ghrocketman
03-02-2011, 10:19 AM
I'm drooling over that box of Enerjet kits and would be interested in the Athena, Egg Crate, and Aero Dart if priced right.
Especially that Athena; not sure I have seen this one bagged but have held a boxed one personally MANY years ago.

Jerry Irvine
03-02-2011, 10:26 AM
The Centuri Argus kit, intro'd in the 1973 catalog (which came out in latter '72) came with the red fin can. But it did not use either the 'consumer' plastic connector or the Enerjet plastic connector. It preceded the Phoenix Bird, best I recall.

So Jerry, I guess then you are saying because of the thicker tubes used in the 1340 kit, the plastic cone and coupler in the 1340 kit were NOT the same as used in the consumer kits? I knew the plastic coupler exposed section was different between the two versions, but I didn't realize the cones were different too. I guess they would have to be due to the thicker tube walls.
The Phoenix Bird was the first to use both the plastic fin unit and the plastic nose cone and coupler combo mold. The Centuri Argus fins are the likely source of EJ 1340 fins.

The mold on the 1340 had about the same nose cone shape but the nose base and coupler bases were smaller OD to fit the Minimax tube. The mold details were different too. The seat between the two coupler shoulders was smooth and short on EJ and visually detailed and longer on Centuri. The plastic was thicker on EJ as well. You can control the shot mass on a blow molded part. On model rockets the trick is to be as light as possible without voids.

Jerry

snaquin
03-02-2011, 10:30 PM
The Phoenix Bird was the first to use both the plastic fin unit and the plastic nose cone and coupler combo mold. The Centuri Argus fins are the likely source of EJ 1340 fins.

The mold on the 1340 had about the same nose cone shape but the nose base and coupler bases were smaller OD to fit the Minimax tube. The mold details were different too. The seat between the two coupler shoulders was smooth and short on EJ and visually detailed and longer on Centuri. The plastic was thicker on EJ as well. You can control the shot mass on a blow molded part. On model rockets the trick is to be as light as possible without voids.

Jerry

Jerry,

I think you pretty much called it in post 4 ..... this is an SPEV of sorts. The originals as you stated all had red for the plastic parts. In the eBay listing the seller states these parts are orange and his model was purchased in 1974. I guess towards the end of the run for EnerJet they used some of the "Centuri Orange" fin cans that were later offered in the Centuri Rocket Times sold as parts along with other items like the original black egg capsule parts. The nose cone/coupler listed here is obviously for the Phoenix Bird based on the line drawing and wasn't the 1340 part made for the thicker tubing you noted.

http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/catalogs/centuriRT75-76Winter/7576WcenRT10.html

Also what I originally thought was possibly the motor tube looks to be the payload tube and it appears to be black? The published literature suggests the 1340 model didn't require paint because it featured "heavy-wall pre-colored spiral wound cardboard and glassine tubing".

Did any of your originals feature a black payload tube or was it white like the main airframe? Centuri through the Rocket Times certainly was eliminating at least some of the EnerJet parts around this time and I wish I would have at least bought a couple of those original black egg capsules for Egg Crate clones.

By what's posted in the listing this by all means appears to be an original 1340 but it is somewhat odd based on the parts selection that was included in this 1974 version. I also didn't realize the actual kit number "1340" appeared on a decal sheet with the EnerJet logos.

It's already climbed out of my price range for bidding but if I had bought it I would open it, inhale the EnerJet air from the bag ..... build it and then fly it on composite F and G motors at our HPR field. I would also document all the contents for Scott to post online for all to enjoy.

.

Jerry Irvine
03-02-2011, 10:44 PM
Also what I originally thought was possibly the motor tube looks to be the payload tube and it appears to be black? The published literature suggests the 1340 model didn't require paint because it featured "heavy-wall pre-colored spiral wound cardboard and glassine tubing".

Did any of your originals feature a black payload tube or was it white like the main airframe?

I also didn't realize the actual kit number "1340" appeared on a decal sheet with the EnerJet logos.

It's already climbed out of my price range for bidding but if I had bought it I would open it, inhale the EnerJet air from the bag ..... build it and then fly it on composite F and G motors at our HPR field. I would also document all the contents for Scott to post online for all to enjoy.

.There were no 1340 decals I recall, just generic Enerjet decals. There were no black tubes I recall, and I do not recall any till Estes E2X.

I think it is a frankenkit, not an original, but sticking an original 1340 instruction in a bag of parts worked great on ebay!

Jerry

RWmarlow
03-03-2011, 08:33 AM
Once on Ebay somebody had Listed A COX Little Joe II "Mint in Package"


True to it's word the photo Showed two Guys and a Slightly shopworn (read: well used) Plastic RTF Little Joe II...in the same photo (perhaps purchased from the produce section of a Safewy) was Indeed...Mint still sealed in a package....Maybe it applies in this case...in any case the Enerjet Motor in an of itself is extremely prized among collectors...isn't it?

Thanks Guys

RM

snaquin
03-03-2011, 08:28 PM
It appears that someone criticized his Mona Lisa .....


On Mar-03-11 at 07:24:20 PST, seller added the following information:

So, I have come to a premature end with this auction. I know this kit is ultra rare, untouched and original, but since it is such, there is nothing out there to compare it to. Is there a way to criticize the color palette on the Mona Lisa if there is only one in existence?? I think I'm going to wait till someone comes forward with photos or proper documentation that can corroborate the color, size, motor, tube number, diameter, etc, etc. This kit can go back on the shelf with the other original Enerjet kits till the time is right. Thanks for all the interest and sorry someone missed out on a once in a lifetime piece.

.

Earl
03-03-2011, 09:36 PM
It appears that someone criticized his Mona Lisa .....


On Mar-03-11 at 07:24:20 PST, seller added the following information:

So, I have come to a premature end with this auction. I know this kit is ultra rare, untouched and original, but since it is such, there is nothing out there to compare it to. Is there a way to criticize the color palette on the Mona Lisa if there is only one in existence?? I think I'm going to wait till someone comes forward with photos or proper documentation that can corroborate the color, size, motor, tube number, diameter, etc, etc. This kit can go back on the shelf with the other original Enerjet kits till the time is right. Thanks for all the interest and sorry someone missed out on a once in a lifetime piece.

.


Either that or someone made him an offer he 'couldn't refuse' and he sold it outside his ebay listing. I hope that's not the case and I hate to cast any aspersions towards someone I don't know; he may be totally honest in his comments above.

With that, here's hoping he'll move on to auctioning the other Enerjet kits in the stash he so teased us with.

Earl

Jerry Irvine
03-04-2011, 09:49 AM
Why would he pull an auction which had no criticism on the venue he was offering it in, Ebay?

Was he living here in the mean time? It appears the questions and speculations here were to address clear inconsistencies from units that were actually in the wild back in the day.

If nothing else, when this frankenkit reemerges, this thread will be searchable.

Jerry

ghrocketman
03-04-2011, 09:55 AM
That is FAR from being a once-in-a-lifetime piece.
More likely it was pulled due to the fact it got nowhere near the amount the seller was expecting.

snaquin
03-04-2011, 05:02 PM
That is FAR from being a once-in-a-lifetime piece.
More likely it was pulled due to the fact it got nowhere near the amount the seller was expecting.

I was thinking the same thing.

Last I checked it was tipping just above $100 the night before he pulled it .....

.

Earl
03-04-2011, 07:09 PM
I think it was running right at $150 last I checked before it disappeared.

'Course, some kits can sometimes triple in dollar amount in the last 15 seconds of bidding, so who knows what it might have gone for.

Earl

ghrocketman
03-06-2011, 02:00 PM
Most likely those interested in it frequent this forum; once the true "franken-nature" of the kit emerged, I would not doubt if several bids got pulled.
I was not aware of any kits coming with Enerjet motors packaged within the bag either.
That F52 motor is worth probably $50 to a collector, but would be worth MUCH more if it was one of the original NIB boxed motors.

I could put together a stapled bag of HASHIMOTO conglomeration parts to create a 1340 CLONE with a copy of correct color instructions and that would be no more an original 1340 kit than this was. The ONLY way I would accept that this kit was original would be via certification by the man himself, Lee Piester. Short of that, no way.

Who knows about the other "Enerjet" kits in his box; we did not get any decent views of those.

snaquin
03-06-2011, 03:01 PM
Most likely those interested in it frequent this forum; once the true "franken-nature" of the kit emerged, I would not doubt if several bids got pulled.
I was not aware of any kits coming with Enerjet motors packaged within the bag either.
That F52 motor is worth probably $50 to a collector, but would be worth MUCH more if it was one of the original NIB boxed motors.

I could put together a stapled bag of HASHIMOTO conglomeration parts to create a 1340 CLONE with a copy of correct color instructions and that would be no more an original 1340 kit than this was. The ONLY way I would accept that this kit was original would be via certification by the man himself, Lee Piester. Short of that, no way.

Who knows about the other "Enerjet" kits in his box; we did not get any decent views of those.

That F52 in particular with the short delay isn't worth much to me .... now if it had a 14 second delay, I know exactly what I would do with it if acquired at a decent price and it wouldn't be sitting on the shelf collecting dust.

My opinion is this so please take it as just that, an opinion. If a seller is going to move what is believed to be such a rare one of a kind product offering through an auction, the burden of proof is on THE SELLER to validate it's authenticity. The statement by seller just didn't sit well with me: "I think I'm going to wait till someone comes forward with photos or proper documentation that can corroborate the color, size, motor, tube number, diameter, etc, etc".

Contact Lee Piester and determine the history of the kit. Write, Email or visit him at his Hobby Bench store and determine the history of the packaging and parts selection used for this end of production 1340. Don't know of any other kits in the Centuri line up with black pre-colored tubes. Would this be unique to future runs of the 1340? Was the orange colored fin unit with nose cone and coupler mold to be standard for future 1340 releases? Possibly an orange and black scheme same as referenced in the drawings that Gary Rosenfield produced when he had Composite Dynamics that documented the suggested finishes and dimensions of the EnerJet 2250 and 2650 sounding rockets?

Jerry Irvine having purchased and flown original versions of all these sounding rockets when they were in the wild surely doesn't recognize it and I for one don't doubt his first hand knowledge or experience with these kits. Potential buyers are obviously suspicious. Seller doesn't know. Contact Gary Rosenfield to see what he may know. Find names of folks in the old newsletters that attended NARAM-14 when the 1340 model first made it's debut and contact them to see what they know about early and late versions of the 1340. Maybe one of these guys knows where to contact Larry Brown. I really don't know but the burden of proof is not on the bidders.

I hope someone will "come forward" and bring the seller the information he needs ..... let's all just wait and see if that happens ......

:rolleyes:

.

ghrocketman
03-07-2011, 02:02 PM
My guess is that this is the last we have heard of this "kit"
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

Earl
05-24-2011, 12:52 AM
This kit was relisted on eBay about a week ago by the same seller. Item sold last night for I believe $355.

Cohetero-negro
05-24-2011, 02:56 AM
This kit was relisted on eBay about a week ago by the same seller. Item sold last night for I believe $355.


Earl,

Was a good price for the seller ... a VERY good price!

Prices lately on ebay have been hitting new highs ... its forced me to spend my money on other sites for other items :)

I know that Frank has more Enerjet kits, so keep an eye out for them.

Jonathan

Earl
05-24-2011, 10:35 AM
I know that Frank has more Enerjet kits, so keep an eye out for them.

Jonathan

Yes, he has a box full of them. An Athena, bagged, is in the bunch. I think he will eventually put those up for auction as well.

Earl

Cohetero-negro
05-24-2011, 02:04 PM
Yes, he has a box full of them. An Athena, bagged, is in the bunch. I think he will eventually put those up for auction as well.

Earl


Earl,

I have noticed many hard core model rocketeers selling off their 'nice' items. I wonder if this is a sign of the bad economy, people and nearing of the end of their life-cycles, or they just see greater value in the $$$ and not the kits?

I know of hard core model rocketeers who are battling various stages of cancer ... I just wonder if they are parting with the kits now and making sure they goto good homes? They could donate to their local musuems.


J

tbzep
05-24-2011, 02:18 PM
Earl,

I have noticed many hard core model rocketeers selling off their 'nice' items. I wonder if this is a sign of the bad economy, people and nearing of the end of their life-cycles, or they just see greater value in the $$$ and not the kits?

In addition to the possibilities you mention, they:
1. Could be running out of space.
2. Transitioning to other hobbies.
3. Their wives could be fed up and laying down the gauntlet, "It's me or these #@$% rockets!"

Cohetero-negro
05-24-2011, 02:23 PM
In addition to the possibilities you mention, they:
1. Could be running out of space.
2. Transitioning to other hobbies.
3. Their wives could be fed up and laying down the gauntlet, "It's me or these #@$% rockets!"


TB,

Well if #3 happened, I would tell her that I love her, but she is just gonna have to go :)

But I do need to get my house in order for both our sakes.

J

Earl
05-24-2011, 08:05 PM
Earl,

I have noticed many hard core model rocketeers selling off their 'nice' items. I wonder if this is a sign of the bad economy, people and nearing of the end of their life-cycles, or they just see greater value in the $$$ and not the kits?

I know of hard core model rocketeers who are battling various stages of cancer ... I just wonder if they are parting with the kits now and making sure they goto good homes? They could donate to their local musuems.


J

I suspect it could be any or all the possibilities mentioned. I hope it is not for any of the more negative reasons.

I guess one thing all of us in our general age group (40's through 50's) need to think about to some degree is that as more of the 'golden age' collectors pass away, there is probably not going to be quite the same market for the various collector kits that most of us treasure so highly simply because younger rocketeers just aren't going to have the same fond feelings about Centuri 1/45th Little Joe II's, Estes vintage Tridents, etc.

It will be interesting to see what the values of those kits, Enerjets, etc. will be like in 15-20 years. I think they will always have some 'elevated' value, but just how much may be a bit disappointing some years down the road.

Many of us do not collect for future monetary return, so it may all be an academic thought exercise. But, I suspect many of the current values may fall at some point in the future.

Earl

ghrocketman
05-25-2011, 12:57 PM
I think the kits that are truly rare will continue to go up even after the "golden agers" are no longer in the hobby or have sold off their collections. The kits that now have inflated values not due to rarity, but due to some sort of "neat" factor will drop rapidly in value once the "non rocketry" collectors take over "collecting" the kits....many kits now trade on ebay FAR and AWAY above their realistic objective value on ebay due to "excitement" factor among some hobbyists with mega buxx $$$ burning holes in their pockets.

Bill
05-27-2011, 03:20 PM
I think the kits that are truly rare will continue to go up even after the "golden agers" are no longer in the hobby or have sold off their collections. The kits that now have inflated values not due to rarity, but due to some sort of "neat" factor will drop rapidly in value once the "non rocketry" collectors take over "collecting" the kits....many kits now trade on ebay FAR and AWAY above their realistic objective value on ebay due to "excitement" factor among some hobbyists with mega buxx $$$ burning holes in their pockets.


It will also depend on whether the kit has been rereleased or if another manufacturer offers a reproduction or if the kit is easy to clone. Young turks will be willing to buy something affordable to build and enjoy and do not have the nostalgic feelings toward the original the "golden agers" do.


Bill