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stefanj
03-13-2011, 10:18 PM
There was an interesting talk about kit development at NARCON on Saturday night.

I wish I had taped it. Did anybody do that?

The legendary Bill Simon presented first. (Would it be possible to get his PowerPoint presentation?) In addition to some historical material, he presented the principles and values of Estes kit development, circa 1962 to 70. It was the kind of thing that made you wonder where we'd gone wrong the last few decades. There were lots of interesting insight into the kit instructions (which they determined had to be better than those in model airplanes).

Jon Boren came next. He is Estes one and only staff designer. I think you could describe his approach as Mad Scientist. He churns out ideas, makes them concrete (but non-physical) in AutoCad, fabricates them for evaluation, and then -- if a kit is accepted for development -- participates in the part sourcing side of the process. Jon has to design an amazing range of stuff, from "fin can, cone, and tube" RTF models to sophisticated stuff that we here would appreciate. He showed off a wedge-shaped former-and-stringer model which is in development. He had the AutoCad drawings as well as a prototype. Since Jon likes Sci-Fi stuff and challenging kits, we can assume there will be more of those . . . but the majority of kits will be lower skill level, so if something cool comes out buy it quick!

Bill Stine also started with a set of principles, which originated in late-70s Damon-owned Centuri. There was a heavy emphasis on economy. With that laid down, he described the incredibly rapid development of the MLAS (kind of like a 21st century Honest John). The R&D team worked through several prototypes, trying to come up with something that was stable but still looked like the actual vehicle. Bill mentioned accepting outside designs, but the hurdle was very high.


The panel could have used two things: Another half-hour of time and a moderator who would coordinate a group discussion.

BEC
03-13-2011, 10:48 PM
Stefan - I had a Zoom H2 audio recorder in that session....and I'm just now starting to listen to the resulting mp3 file. It sounds like it has a kind of low recording level but is quite listenable - at least judging by the beginning of Bill Simon's section of it.

I love your characterization of John Boren....and somehow I think when he sees this (which I'm sure he will) he will likely not disagree very much. :)

I'm kicking myself for not recording the "manufacturer's forum" last night. There were a couple of nuggets in that discussion as well. But right now I'm going to listen to Roy Houchin's presentation, since I was in a different session at the time.

Bill
03-13-2011, 11:07 PM
The legendary Bill Simon presented first. (Would it be possible to get his PowerPoint presentation?) In addition to some historical material, he presented the principles and values of Estes kit development, circa 1962 to 70. It was the kind of thing that made you wonder where we'd gone wrong the last few decades. There were lots of interesting insight into the kit instructions (which they determined had to be better than those in model airplanes).



Model airplane instructions presume a basic set of skills. Model rocket instructions spell everything out, even for advanced kits like Saturns. It is not rocket scientists are stupid, but that things are more critical. Get a rocket motor mount wrong and you can have disaster. Get a few airplane stringers or ribs wrong and you probably never notice.

Most people do not appreciate what it takes to get rocket kit instructions written, illustrated, checked and double checked.


Bill

stefanj
03-13-2011, 11:14 PM
I forget Simon's exact words, but the Estes plan strategy amounted to:

An exploded view graphic that a person of reasonable intelligence could use to build the kit.

Step by step illustrated instructions for those who need more guidance.

Totally unambiguous written instructions for each step.

Initiator001
03-13-2011, 11:42 PM
Most people do not appreciate what it takes to get rocket kit instructions written, illustrated, checked and double checked.


Bill

That is so true! :rolleyes:

Shreadvector
03-14-2011, 08:40 AM
"MLAS (kind of like a 21st century Honest John)."

Did you mean "Little Joe" rather than "Honest John" ??

stefanj
03-14-2011, 12:50 PM
"MLAS (kind of like a 21st century Honest John)."

Did you mean "Little Joe" rather than "Honest John" ??

Ah. Yes. Little Joe, not Honest John.

I wrote that after driving for four hours in the driving rain and my accuracy lobes were fatigued.

Added nugget o'detail: The MLAS prototypes that Bill showed slides of had nice molded foam nose cones. I asked whether they used some kind of rapid fabricator.

Naaah. It was a foam bell Christmas decoration from Michael's crafts.

Ltvscout
03-15-2011, 08:34 AM
Ah. Yes. Little Joe, not Honest John.

I wrote that after driving for four hours in the driving rain and my accuracy lobes were fatigued.

Added nugget o'detail: The MLAS prototypes that Bill showed slides of had nice molded foam nose cones. I asked whether they used some kind of rapid fabricator.

Naaah. It was a foam bell Christmas decoration from Michael's crafts.
Wasn't Shrox working for Quest at that time helping with the development of the MLAS?

BEC
03-15-2011, 09:56 AM
Wasn't Shrox working for Quest at that time helping with the development of the MLAS?

Yes.... Bill Stine described how they got started working on it by saying that Shrox dragged him to his office to show him the video of the MLAS launch at Wallops.....:) Things proceeded from there at a rapid pace with lots of fly-fix-fly-fix cycles.

sandman
03-15-2011, 02:19 PM
Yes.... Bill Stine described how they got started working on it by saying that Shrox dragged him to his office to show him the video of the MLAS launch at Wallops.....:) Things proceeded from there at a rapid pace with lots of fly-fix-fly-fix cycles.

I was going to see if I could offer the MLAS as a kit but unfortunately while Bill and Shrox were making prototype models for a kit Gus, Peter Alway and I were at the MLAS launch. :D

Sorry guys but that was way way cooler than making a kit. ;)

Rocket Doctor
03-15-2011, 06:56 PM
I wrote many instructions for Estes , too many to keep track of. My approach was to write them so that the novice could put the kit together with little difficulty.

As many of us know, we know short cuts, but, when writting instructions for the general populaton, you have to refrain from doing that.

On the original Renegade, I took extra precaution to go into details with that kit. There were just too many fins, pods etc on that kit and I wanted to go into great detail inorder to assemble this kit with ease. Probably the only kit, other than scale kits to go into such detail.

One problem with the Renegade is that the booster section was so heavy.

The last kit instructions that I waorked on were the 1350 Interceptor. Intersting stuff, from basic part to a completed instruction sheet.

RocketBoy 32
04-11-2011, 12:00 AM
Heh. I got that Interceptor E kit when it first came out and discovered that there was a printing error made on the fin alignment guide. I called Estes and mentioned it. I was told that they'd be in touch and that I could possibly talk to a rocket designer.

15 minutes later I got a call from Estes. Not a rocket designer but a customer service rep who wanted more details about the problem. I told her the fin alignment guide for one of the Interceptor's fins was off by a good 1/8 of an inch. I heard her pony express it to someone in the background she said was one of their tech guys. She asked "Which one?" I told her and she relayed the info. Next thing I heard was a muffled "Da**it he's right. It's off". She asked if I wanted a new set of plans mailed to me. I heard the tech guy in the background say "Well no if he caught an 1/8 of an inch error I don't think he needs new plans."

I imagine there were a few times when there was a glitch in the system between your drawings and the printers. Did any other rockets have problems with the instructions like this that you caught in-house before too many of them were printed?