Estes Saturn V Build - Kit No. 2157

[cas2047]

I decided to start the new Estes Saturn V build, kit no 2157. It looks like it will be a great build, and of course most of the time will be spent on the painting when I get to that step.

I marked up the main body and third stage tubes as required and built the engine mount and centering rings. I also built the optional cradle for holding the body during assembly.

Now I'm ready to insert the mount into the main BT. It's suppopsed to recess to 3 3/8", and was wondering if anyone has modified this step to decrease the depth. I plan on using Aerotech 24mm RMS motors so I don't have to rely on an Estes D12 to get this thing off the ground and I could add nose weight if necessary. I'd just rather not have the motor recessed the full 3 3/8" into the main BT if I don't have to.

Also does anyone have any glue recommendations for the vac-formed parts. Estes recommends Plastic Weld Cement (Plastruct), Testor's Plastic Cement #3502, Tenax 7R, and Testor's or Tamiya glue pens.

[Bill]

Now I'm ready to insert the mount into the main BT. It's suppopsed to recess to 3 3/8", and was wondering if anyone has modified this step to decrease the depth. I plan on using Aerotech 24mm RMS motors so I don't have to rely on an Estes D12 to get this thing off the ground and I could add nose weight if necessary. I'd just rather not have the motor recessed the full 3 3/8" into the main BT if I don't have to.



A popular modification is to move the mount back and fly with the F-1 nozzles attached. Additional nose weight, larger fins, clear fins or a combination of these is always necessary to compensate. Too bad there is not a gas with negative mass we can put between the stuffer tube and the outer airframe.


Bill

[jeffyjeep]

For vacu-formed wraps I use DAP rubber cement (the stringy, amber stuff that smells like hell). For the fins I SPARINGLY use Tenax 7r.

I'm sure there are other adhesives that work, but this is how I roll.

Remember: always test the adhesive on a piece of scrap material!

Have a fun build! Jeff

[cas2047]

A popular modification is to move the mount back and fly with the F-1 nozzles attached. Additional nose weight, larger fins, clear fins or a combination of these is always necessary to compensate. Too bad there is not a gas with negative mass we can put between the stuffer tube and the outer airframe.


Bill

If I didn't have to deal with additional fins I might actually consider that... But for this build I may just cheat the mount to between 2 3/4" and 3" instead of 3 3/8". For flight I can compensate with nose weight, and for display I can cut down the spacer ring to make sure the F-1 Nozzles display correctly. The main reason I'd like to do this is to reduce the chance of burning of the inner wall of the rocket by the Aerotech RMS motors...

I still need to do some research and do some thinking though before I go ahead and make the change...

[cas2047]

For vacu-formed wraps I use DAP rubber cement (the stringy, amber stuff that smells like hell). For the fins I SPARINGLY use Tenax 7r.

I'm sure there are other adhesives that work, but this is how I roll.

Remember: always test the adhesive on a piece of scrap material!

Have a fun build! Jeff

Thanks!

[DaveR]

<snip>
Now I'm ready to insert the mount into the main BT. It's suppopsed to recess to 3 3/8", and was wondering if anyone has modified this step to decrease the depth.
Having never built a Sat V, I thought your measurement on how much the motor mount was to be recessed was a typo, but after reading further, I see that's not the case. 3 3/8" seems like a lot to me. At what point does the Krushnic effect come into play?

[cas2047]

Having never built a Sat V, I thought your measurement on how much the motor mount was to be recessed was a typo, but after reading further, I see that's not the case. 3 3/8" seems like a lot to me. At what point does the Krushnic effect come into play?

I would hopefully always launch this rocket with enough of a stand-off from the blast plate to not allow a vacuum build-up, which I think is what causes the Krushnic effect with recessed motor mounts, although I've never seen it happen and am not all that familiar with it.

What I am really concerned about is just the burning of the inner lining of the main BT from the RMS motor exhaust. If I recess the mount just a little less I think I can reduce the possibility of that inner burning. Actually I see it a lot on one of my TLP kits, where the mount is recessed and the engine exhaust has charred the inside of the BT.

[rocketguy101]

I have a build thread on my Centuri Saturn V here (http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=4983) we discussed adhesives there. This model is similar to the current Estes Saturn V.

I noticed this thread on RP (http://www.rocketryplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8215), the poster mentions some problems with the third stage reduction wrap not fitting the paper shroud correctly. I have not started building my 2157 yet, but I want to check that out.

ps: I tried flying w/ an F motor, and did get a little scorching on the bottom.

[Randy]

Go ahead and pull the mount back to the bottom and add a little weight to the capsule, plenty of room in there. Just keep the cg at 17.5" from the bottom of the bt and you're good to go.

Randy
www.vernarockets.com

[Earl]

Having never built a Sat V, I thought your measurement on how much the motor mount was to be recessed was a typo, but after reading further, I see that's not the case. 3 3/8" seems like a lot to me. At what point does the Krushnic effect come into play?


I seem to recall a very general rule of thumb on preventing the Krushnic effect by recessing the motor (i.e., specifically the exit plane of the nozzle) to NO MORE THAN one body diameter. In the case of the Saturn V, that'd be just about 4 inches, so a 3 and 3/8", it would seem by that general rule you'd be ok.

Anyone else confirm this general rule? You don't hear folk talk much about the ol' Krushnic effect anymore.

Earl

[jeffyjeep]

Until now, I'd never even heard of the Krushnik Effect.

Are you making this up?

[cas2047]

I have a build thread on my Centuri Saturn V here (http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=4983) we discussed adhesives there. This model is similar to the current Estes Saturn V.

I noticed this thread on RP (http://www.rocketryplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8215), the poster mentions some problems with the third stage reduction wrap not fitting the paper shroud correctly. I have not started building my 2157 yet, but I want to check that out.

ps: I tried flying w/ an F motor, and did get a little scorching on the bottom.

Great reading rocketguy, and beautiful Centuri Sat V!

[rocketguy101]

Until now, I'd never even heard of the Krushnik Effect.

Are you making this up?
chk pg 37 of the Nov 69 Model Rocketry (http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ModelRocketry/Model_Rocketry_v02n02_11-69.pdf) (pg 39 of the pdf)

[rocketguy101]

Great reading rocketguy, and beautiful Centuri Sat V!
Thanks! Keep us posted on your build, I am really curious as to how different the new Estes model is to the Centuri version.

[cas2047]

Go ahead and pull the mount back to the bottom and add a little weight to the capsule, plenty of room in there. Just keep the cg at 17.5" from the bottom of the bt and you're good to go.

Randy
www.vernarockets.com

Thanks Randy. I think if I recess it 2 1/4" it should eliminate any serious interior burning.

I built the Sat V kit 2001 a few years back and I set that one up with a trippe 24mm mount, also recessed to 2 1/4" and that one has flown with no interior burning so I think that's probably a good compromise placement. I've never launched that 2001 version with an RMS motor though...

[cas2047]

Thanks! Keep us posted on your build, I am really curious as to how different the new Estes model is to the Centuri version.

Will do rocketguy!. I'm hoping to make some good progress on it this week, as long as I can pickup the adhesives I need.

[tbzep]

I noticed this thread on RP (http://www.rocketryplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8215), the poster mentions some problems with the third stage reduction wrap not fitting the paper shroud correctly. I have not started building my 2157 yet, but I want to check that out.

My son built his first run 2157 kit and had issues with the third stage wrap. He printed off a new paper shroud with the correct dimensions to match the wrap. The original Centuri kit had much thinner plastic wraps and the body tubes are just a hair different from Estes. That combination seems to have made a considerable difference.

[mwtoelle]

I seem to recall a very general rule of thumb on preventing the Krushnic effect by recessing the motor (i.e., specifically the exit plane of the nozzle) to NO MORE THAN one body diameter. In the case of the Saturn V, that'd be just about 4 inches, so a 3 and 3/8", it would seem by that general rule you'd be ok.

Anyone else confirm this general rule? You don't hear folk talk much about the ol' Krushnic effect anymore.


The Krushnic Effect is definitely real. I had an Estes Hercules that kicked the booster motor without kicking off the booster airframe. The A8-5 burnt out the booster motor tube, but the sustainer did not gain much altitude after staging. For this flight, the sustainer motor acted like a delay train, instead of taking the upper stage to the significantly higher altitude that it would have reached if everything had worked normally. :( I suspect that if I had used a B or C motor instead of an A8-5, the booster airframe (BT-50) might have been burnt away as well.

[Randy]

[QUOTE=Earl]I seem to recall a very general rule of thumb on preventing the Krushnic effect by recessing the motor (i.e., specifically the exit plane of the nozzle) to NO MORE THAN one body diameter. In the case of the Saturn V, that'd be just about 4 inches, so a 3 and 3/8", it would seem by that general rule you'd be ok.

Sounds right.

>Anyone else confirm this general rule? You don't hear folk talk much about the ol' Krushnic effect anymore.

I think it's not talked about too much because 99% of the rockets being flown all have the engines at or below the bottom of the bt. I have only seen it happen once to another flyer who set his rocket about a half inch off the blast plate. It didn't go anywhere and burned about 75% of the rocket before it was extinguished.

Randy
www.vernarockets.com

[Bill]

Until now, I'd never even heard of the Krushnik Effect.

Are you making this up?


The first time I heard that term used, I thought they were talking about the Russians pranging a satellite launcher...


Bill

[Bill]

[QUOTE=Earl]
>Anyone else confirm this general rule? You don't hear folk talk much about the ol' Krushnic effect anymore.

I think it's not talked about too much because 99% of the rockets being flown all have the engines at or below the bottom of the bt. I have only seen it happen once to another flyer who set his rocket about a half inch off the blast plate. It didn't go anywhere and burned about 75% of the rocket before it was extinguished.



It is somewhat surprising that does not happen more with The Launch Pad kits. Most of their motor mounts are recessed.


Bill

[DaveR]

I seem to recall a very general rule of thumb on preventing the Krushnic effect by recessing the motor (i.e., specifically the exit plane of the nozzle) to NO MORE THAN one body diameter. In the case of the Saturn V, that'd be just about 4 inches, so a 3 and 3/8", it would seem by that general rule you'd be ok.

Anyone else confirm this general rule? You don't hear folk talk much about the ol' Krushnic effect anymore.

Earl
That's the rule I remember, but I didn't know how big the tube was on a Sat V. Even so, 3 3/8 seems like a lot.

I've never seen the Krushnic effect occur, but it might be cool to see. (In a twisted rocket destroying sort of way. :eek: )

[JumpJet]

It has happened to me with my Upscale Centuri Point which is nothing more then a big paper cone. Nothing better then seeing a D12 motor thrusting away while the rocket sits on the pad turning brown from the inside out. The only thing left was the nose cone.

John Boren

[tbzep]

It has happened to me with my Upscale Centuri Point which is nothing more then a big paper cone. Nothing better then seeing a D12 motor thrusting away while the rocket sits on the pad turning brown from the inside out. The only thing left was the nose cone.

John Boren

Sounds funny to watch in person....unless it happens to me. :eek: :p

[hcmbanjo]

It has happened to me with my Upscale Centuri Point which is nothing more then a big paper cone. Nothing better then seeing a D12 motor thrusting away while the rocket sits on the pad turning brown from the inside out. The only thing left was the nose cone.

John Boren

That happened to my (regular sized) Centuri Point in the mid 1970s.

If I remember correctly, the Semroc instructions said to raise it above the blast deflector.
The Centuri instructions didn't mention this.
Mine was set down flat on an Estes round blast deflector, the deflector diameter was a little wider than the base of the Point.
It was almost like there was "suction" holding it down to the launcher.
The Centuri blast deflector was angled, not flat.

My mother would take me to the ranch to fly rockets back then.
I can still hear her laughing when it caught fire.
She sarcastically said: "Well, that was different".

The Point -
"Build it - Watch it fly - And wonder why!"
Then go home

[Bill]

The Point -
"Build it - Watch it fry - And wonder why!"

[Scott6060842]

I bought a Semroc point (never knew the history of it till recently) to round out my Xmas order. Im going to pull it down and build it. I find the FRY potention appealing in a weird sort of way.

[cas2047]

I made some progress on the build.

The third stage components have been assembled. The only change I made was that I used Kevlar cord on the third stage centering ring instead of a doubled up piece of line called for in the instructions. I'm filling spirals now.

The L.E.M. components have been assembled. I'm filling spirals now.

The nozzles have been assembled, primed, and are being painted. I figure anywhere I can get a jump on any of the painting I'm going to do that along the way.

All wraps have been cut out, and that took a LONG time... I still have to do a bit of sanding before I apply them to the tubes.

Now I just need to pickup the glues I need to attach the wraps so I glue them in place.

[jeffyjeep]

Looking good! Are you going to put Sandman's SM wrap on it?

[Bill]

What did you finally decide to do with the motor mount position? If you are concerned about burning, consider taping a protective strip of printer paper or even aluminum foil around the inside the tube.


Bill

[cas2047]

Looking good! Are you going to put Sandman's SM wrap on it?

I hadn't even thought about that. Finishing this thing is going to be a ton of fun! :D

[cas2047]

What did you finally decide to do with the motor mount position? If you are concerned about burning, consider taping a protective strip of printer paper or even aluminum foil around the inside the tube.


Bill

I did decide to move it down. The most I will recess it will be 2 1/4", but I may even go a bit more shallow than that. For now I've left it un-glued so that I can complete the build to the point that I can get a good sense of the CG based on a couple of different configurations.

That's a good idea about using some kind of interior barrier. I'll have to give that some thought...

[jharding58]

It is official.

I hate the Estes #2157 Satrun V with vac wraps. Masking around the LH2 fairings, pumps and retro rockets on one model is a bear. Doing it on three is an absolute dose of masochism. Give me the good old injection molded parts and a few little rectangles of tape on the tube for glue spots. And don't get me started on the depth of the corrugations on these models.

[jeffyjeep]

Paper wraps forever!!

[jharding58]

Also - check the decal sheet on the 2157 release. You should have the replacement decals for the fin markings and the view markings (I-IIII) on white background. You probably will also have four CM flags and United States - if all four of yours have a curved United States.

Of course we have already established that there are no flags on the BPC, and we should be using Gordy's SM decal anyway.

[Earl]

It is official.

I hate the Estes #2157 Satrun V with vac wraps. Masking around the LH2 fairings, pumps and retro rockets on one model is a bear. Doing it on three is an absolute dose of masochism. Give me the good old injection molded parts and a few little rectangles of tape on the tube for glue spots. And don't get me started on the depth of the corrugations on these models.

Yes, the original Centuri plastic body wraps were a little too 'deep' and the Estes wraps were maybe a bit too shallow. I remember the masking task on my original Saturn V back in the early 80s being quite the chore, but the final quality came out fine.

I guess I'm partial to the Centuri version, but neither it or the Estes offering were quite accurate to the actual corrugations on the real Saturn. Somewhat like the chrome Mylar body an the Centuri 1/45th Little Joe II: Looks great and makes for a very appealing model, but the 'chromeness' of that wrapper is not truly in keeping with actual appearance of the corrugations on the real LJ's.

Earl

[tbzep]

and we should be using Gordy's SM decal anyway.

And don't use Microscale Liquid Decal Film on the chrome/aluminum decal wraps, even though the downloaded instructions say to do so. :(

[Randy]

It is official.

I hate the Estes #2157 Satrun V with vac wraps. Masking around the LH2 fairings, pumps and retro rockets on one model is a bear. Doing it on three is an absolute dose of masochism. Give me the good old injection molded parts and a few little rectangles of tape on the tube for glue spots. And don't get me started on the depth of the corrugations on these models.


I hear ya! For us the 2001 is far and away the best of all Estes/ Centuri versions and at least a full skill level above the 2157. Being a pain in the posterior (2157) doesn't equate to a higher skill level. I'm hoping the next time Estes decides to release the Saturn V, maybe for the 50th anniversary, it will be a new kit, not a rehash. From the way things are going now I think the new owners will produce a better kit by then.

Randy
www.vernarockets.com

[cas2047]

I'm not loving the vacu-form parts myself, but I expect when it comes time to paint I'll like them even less. ;)

Since my last post I've wrapped up the engine nozzles including paint. I've also cut out and sanded all of the vacu-form parts including the fins and fin fairings . I've also completed the fin construction.

But I haven't picked up the vacu-form glue yet and some competing priorities have put things on hold for a bit. I actually finished a rebuild of my Aerotech G-Force that lawn darted last summer. The paint job even came out ok so I'm happy with that!

I'll be back to working on the Saturn V sometime next week I expect.

[jharding58]

The main issue I have against these wraps is really the pain of painting them. Given that the majority of the "bumps" moulded into the wrap are to remain white, and the area immediately around them will be black, the masking of same is a really onerous task. The advantage of the injection molded details parts was two fold: one they could be painted off the model without masking, and they were far more sale in appearance and dimension. The retro motors, LH2 fairings, even the ullage motors were closer to scale.

I ama not sure that there is advantage in using the vacuum form wraps other than in the manufacture process. For the average modeler there is probably an ease of asembly in not having "all those little fiddly bits". This brings more weight to the question of Estes/Horizon considering a parts market - the Saturn V injection mould parts sprue with the card stock wraps would have made a welcome addition as spares (as indeed would the 1/100 Apollo cpsule or 1/35 Mercury). But it seems that there really is no market for, or profit margin left, in spares.

[cas2047]

But it seems that there really is no market for, or profit margin left, in spares.

That must be the case unfortunately...

[jeffyjeep]

The main issue I have against these wraps is really the pain of painting them. Given that the majority of the "bumps" moulded into the wrap are to remain white, and the area immediately around them will be black, the masking of same is a really onerous task. The advantage of the injection molded details parts was two fold: one they could be painted off the model without masking, and they were far more sale in appearance and dimension. The retro motors, LH2 fairings, even the ullage motors were closer to scale.

I ama not sure that there is advantage in using the vacuum form wraps other than in the manufacture process. For the average modeler there is probably an ease of asembly in not having "all those little fiddly bits". This brings more weight to the question of Estes/Horizon considering a parts market - the Saturn V injection mould parts sprue with the card stock wraps would have made a welcome addition as spares (as indeed would the 1/100 Apollo cpsule or 1/35 Mercury). But it seems that there really is no market for, or profit margin left, in spares.
Am I the only one that paints all of the black parts of the SV and 1B by hand?

Hence:

[Earl]

Back when I built my Centuri Saturn V in late '82 through '83, I think I spent about three hours masking PER main black roll pattern rectangle on the S-IC/S-II interstage area (see attached photo) and the bottom S-IC area.

There are some molded-in horizontal raised lines on those Centuri wraps that help in masking those areas off (I assume they are still there in the most recent Estes Saturn V re-release), but even with that, it still took a great deal of time and care to carefully mask those areas for painting.

This Saturn V was the one that was flown from LC-39 (across the road from the VAB by the large countdown clock) in July, 1989 for KSC's Apollo 11 20th anniversary celebrations. That was the model's third and final flight. Note the dragonfly perched at the tip of the launch rod! The shot 'up the crawlerway' was made during one of the test flights leading up to the KSC launch (the latter two photos are old scans of old photos and are not in great shape).


Earl

[cas2047]

Am I the only one that paints all of the black parts of the SV and 1B by hand?

Hence:

I haven't done any hand painting on the Sat V or Sat 1B that I've built. I just don't think I could do a good job of it.

[tbzep]

Am I the only one that paints all of the black parts of the SV and 1B by hand?

Hence:

That's the way I painted my Centuri Saturn 1B and Saturn V when I was a kid.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y283/tbzep/Rockets/Rocket%20Cave/th_DSC_0012.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y283/tbzep/Rockets/Rocket%20Cave/DSC_0012.jpg)

[ghrocketman]

I have painted the black sections of all my Saturn V's and 1B's by hand except the second Saturn V (a #2001 kit) I built.
Sounds more difficult, but I find it is not as one can do a section at a time while watching television without having to mask the entire rocket at once.

[jeffyjeep]

I was HOPING I wan't the only one! Having to do that much masking would kill me.

[cas2047]

So what kind of paint and brushes do you use?

[jeffyjeep]

I first border out the black area with black 1/16" pinstriping and then paint it with a Testors gloss black paint marker.

Don't tell anyone.

Oh, wait.......

[cas2047]

I first border out the black area with black 1/16" pinstriping and then paint it with a Testors gloss black paint marker.

Don't tell anyone.

Oh, wait.......

lol - who me... I'll never tell! ;)

[tbzep]

I used Testor's flat black. Flat black doesn't show brush strokes the way gloss does. I didn't know it at the time. I just used it because the Centuri instructions said to use flat white and black. :)

[jharding58]

There is another difference that you will encounter with the 2157 kit. The instructions for LL placement differ between the 2001 and 2157 release. In the previous (and possibly original version) the upper lug is placed immediately below the interstage wrap. In the latest release the upper lug appears immediately below the "second upper stage wrap". This places the lug within 3/4" of the top of the main tube. Certainly the painting and decal placement images in the 2157 instructions still show the top lug in the original lower position.

As slowly as this model accelerates the placement of the upper lug almost seems a little high on the tube; by this I mean that it would that having this model on the lugs as long as possible would be an advantage. Was the lug moved to reduce binding from the lugs being closer together? I have not flown a 2157 so would be interested in hearing how the model fares with a high lug placement?

[cas2047]

I used Testor's flat black. Flat black doesn't show brush strokes the way gloss does. I didn't know it at the time. I just used it because the Centuri instructions said to use flat white and black. :)

Thanks for this tip. If I do go the brush route, which is doubtful, I think I'd go with the flat paint to avoid brush strokes.

Of course maybe I could spray paint and then do touch-up's if necessary with a brush paint...

[Bill]

I used Testor's flat black. Flat black doesn't show brush strokes the way gloss does. I didn't know it at the time. I just used it because the Centuri instructions said to use flat white and black. :)


That had been my experience. Flat paint is very forgiving. But does a glosscoat make brush strokes suddenly show up like a cruel disappearing ink heated over a candle?


Bill

[tbzep]

That had been my experience. Flat paint is very forgiving. But does a glosscoat make brush strokes suddenly show up like a cruel disappearing ink heated over a candle?
Bill

I used Testor's dull coat on my old Centuri kits. The brush strokes got no worse with it.

[Bill]

I used Testor's dull coat on my old Centuri kits. The brush strokes got no worse with it.


But how about using glosscoat before applying decals?


Bill

[tbzep]

But how about using glosscoat before applying decals?


Bill

I don't know. I've never seen the point in glossing over flat paint. Centuri instructions called for flat paint and dullcoat.

[jharding58]

The paint applied to the airframe was intended to provide contrast at the lowest possible weight penalty. On the arframes that are on display in the open there is a weathered matte texture. On the KSC display the paint almost appears to be satin up close, but remarkably dull from a distance. One would have guessed that even the paint drag would have to have been taken into consideration on an articl that large, but perhaps not. There was also the issue of frosting on the booster once filled and pressurized.

Since we have problems applying decals over matte paint to eliminate silvering, the best solution that I have been able to find is to paint the model overall white. Paint the roll patterns flat black. Cut a paper mask for each of the decal placements on the white sections (USA, United States, Flags, first motion target) and shoot a light coat of clear satin. Apply the decals and then once dry, overspray the entire model (except the SM decal if you bought one) with satin or dull cote.

The best method I have found for these friskets is to take tracing paper and draw the outline of the masked area. Cut diagonally in both directions across the space, then fold the four triangular petals underneath the sheet. This gives you a rectangular opening with four little petals keeping the sheet away from the surface. Held tightly against the model a quick spray will provide a gloss surface for the decals.

If you really want to keep that draggy matte surface that is.

[nukemmcssret]

Am I the only one that paints all of the black parts of the SV and 1B by hand?

Hence:
JEff
What kind of paint are you using? Testors Model Master? Looks real good. I hand painted my Semroc Defender. I have a THread on it here in projects. Also Check out my loadstar thread I have pictures Chief. That is the one you sent me. :D

[cas2047]

Well I finally had some time to get some work done on the Sat V. I went out and bought a can of 3M Super 77 spray adhesive and a bottle of DAP Weldwood contact cement. That DAP cement STINKS! I'll only be working with that stuff in a well ventilated area that's for sure.

Anyway I used the 3M Super 77 spray adhesive on all wraps. They all went on very well. However a few of them peeled up at the end points to various degrees. I had to go back and use CA to glue down those that came up. I'm not sure if maybe I didn't use enough of the adhesive, but it seemed to happen on a few of the wraps, not all. Anyway it didn't turn out to be a big deal since the CA locked them down very well. All in all I liked working with the 3M adhesive. It did provide some time to set the wraps correctly so it wasn't a do or die situation which was nice.

I've also finished creating, sanding and filling the fins which was pretty straight forward. I also shaped the fin fairings to fit the contour of the main BT. That wasn't all that much fun, but it worked out fine with some tedious sanding, fitting sessions...

Next up will be to attach the fins and fairings and that's where I expect to use the DAP Weldwood contact cement.

[cas2047]

Here are the latest pics.

I'm going to have some filling to do on the fins and fairings. I'm planning to use Bondo spot putty to do that.

[jharding58]

One of the weakest parts of the whole model is the fin tip. It is prone to splitting at the joint. Before you attach the fin root to the model drill a small hole and inject a filler into the fin tip - even white glue will do.

[cas2047]

One of the weakest parts of the whole model is the fin tip. It is prone to splitting at the joint. Before you attach the fin root to the model drill a small hole and inject a filler into the fin tip - even white glue will do.

Great tip! The fins do look very weak.

It looks like even looking at them hard could cause them to split. Any impact with the ground would pobably cause some serious damage.

Taking your suggestion a step further, I wonder if I could just cut a hole at the root of each fin and inject foam filler...

[jharding58]

Giving it more thought it might make more sense (not helping you of course) to cut some sheet to fill the last 1/4 inch of each fin with plastic sheet to make that solid

[cas2047]

Giving it more thought it might make more sense (not helping you of course) to cut some sheet to fill the last 1/4 inch of each fin with plastic sheet to make that solid

So basically fill the void with material and then lock it in with glue...? I just wonder if it wouldn't be easier to inject in foam filler and be done with it. Come to think of it I could also do that with the fairings if it worked...

[tbzep]

So basically fill the void with material and then lock it in with glue...? I just wonder if it wouldn't be easier to inject in foam filler and be done with it. Come to think of it I could also do that with the fairings if it worked...

I wouldn't use foam in a can. That suff continues to expand for months and could split open the fin long after the model is finished. What's bad is that it will cure where you injected it so that it can't expand out the opening and the rest of it pressurizes the whole enclosure. Since the fins are so small, it might not be an issue, but I'd still be paranoid about it. I used it to strengthen fin cans a couple of times and had the motor tubes get crushed from the foam expansion a few months after it was applied.

Two part foam will stop expanding after a few minutes and it's done. Any excess will ooze out the fill hole and the whole thing cures at the same time so you don't ruin your project. It's 100% safe from future expansion due to uneven curing, it's stronger, and it bonds better.

[jharding58]

So basically fill the void with material and then lock it in with glue...? I just wonder if it wouldn't be easier to inject in foam filler and be done with it. Come to think of it I could also do that with the fairings if it worked...

As tbzep above. Also the foam adds little in the way of structural strength. A couple of laminations of sheet on each side and the tip is solid. You might want to up the canopies also, especially if you do not uprate on the motors. Flying on a D you will be amazed how much of a limbo this thing does - how low can you go...

[cas2047]

Thanks for both of you for your input on this. I might have gone ahead and used the foam and I have to tell you I'd be ticked if the fins bulged out on me.

I hadn't considered the foam continuing to expand after first applied.

tbzep - what's a good brand of 2 part foam for future reference? I've never heard of 2 part form but it sounds like it would useful in any number of ways.

[pantherjon]

what's a good brand of 2 part foam for future reference? I've never heard of 2 part form but it sounds like it would useful in any number of ways.

I would recommend Giant Leaps 'Mega Foam' here (http://www.giantleaprocketry.com/hpdefault.asp)-click on 'Products' then 'Composites' and then click on Mega Foam...Or the 2 part foam from Wildman (http://www.wildmanrocketry.com/default.asp?groupid=910401138&groupid1=59163728) (cheaper)..Just be aware that when the foam cures it creates a bit of heat ,so be careful filling those plastic fins...

[cas2047]

I would recommend Giant Leaps 'Mega Foam' here (http://www.giantleaprocketry.com/hpdefault.asp)-click on 'Products' then 'Composites' and then click on Mega Foam...Or the 2 part foam from Wildman (http://www.wildmanrocketry.com/default.asp?groupid=910401138&groupid1=59163728) (cheaper)..Just be aware that when the foam cures it creates a bit of heat ,so be careful filling those plastic fins...

Thanks Jon. I appreciate the leads. I am going to go ahead and pick some up. Evenn if I decide not to use it on this project I can think of many uses down the road.

[tbzep]

I used two part foam for making large HPR nose cones and it did get pretty warm. I don't think there will be a lot of heat in the small volume needed for the SV fins, but it wouldn't hurt to do a test run with some scrap first.

[Robobud]

I was thinking about using 30 min epoxy and microballoons...anybody ever try that?

[jetlag]

I was thinking about using 30 min epoxy and microballoons...anybody ever try that?

Yes. It works very well. Adds strength with just a little weight gain. To me, the added strength far outweighs the small amount of weight gain. Micro balloons work, but one can also use balsa dust to achieve the same result. I have a bagful, as I love sanding almost as much as TB does! :D You can thin it, if necessary, with alcohol. Not heat issues either.

Allen

[cas2047]

Yes. It works very well. Adds strength with just a little weight gain. To me, the added strength far outweighs the small amount of weight gain. Micro balloons work, but one can also use balsa dust to achieve the same result. I have a bagful, as I love sanding almost as much as TB does! :D You can thin it, if necessary, with alcohol. Not heat issues either.

Allen

Another workable solution. And this one allows you to use that left over balsa dust. :)

[dgrayson]

CAS 2047: in step 5 in metions to use 5" of line without specifying which line. Is tghis shroud line or - like you used, kevlar cord. It's a bit confusing although from looking ahead this is what the 15" shock cord is anchored to. So which ever it is it needs to be strong. Is there extra cord with the kit?

[jharding58]

I think they mean 5" of shroud line doubled, so you have 2.5" of line to work with. You can use aramid if you want, but the little D ring on the SM tube probabaly takes more stress on opening. This knotted cord attaches to the shock cord directly while there is 13" of line between the shock cord and the snap swivel at the D ring (Step 21).

[cas2047]

CAS 2047: in step 5 in metions to use 5" of line without specifying which line. Is tghis shroud line or - like you used, kevlar cord. It's a bit confusing although from looking ahead this is what the 15" shock cord is anchored to. So which ever it is it needs to be strong. Is there extra cord with the kit?

The kit comes with four bundles of shroud line. It doesn't come with any additional kinds of line.

On step 5 it doesn't actually say what kind of line to use, it just says "cut a piece of line 5" long .....". I believe you are supposed to use the shroud line doubled, but I used Kevlar line instead of the shroud line. I did that because I don't want to have to come back later and replace broken shock cord line, but that's just a personal preference. If you wanted to use Kevlar line you would have to purchase it separately.

[LW Bercini]

I would hopefully always launch this rocket with enough of a stand-off from the blast plate to not allow a vacuum build-up, which I think is what causes the Krushnic effect with recessed motor mounts, although I've never seen it happen and am not all that familiar with it.

.

I recall reading, many years ago, that the Krushnik effect is caused by sound waves reflecting inside the tube that creates a cancellation effect on the thrust. I'm probably not using the proper terms, but I do know had to do with a wave interference and not a vacuum.

[Doug Sams]

I recall reading, many years ago, that the Krushnik effect is caused by sound waves reflecting inside the tube that creates a cancellation effect on the thrust. I'm probably not using the proper terms, but I do know had to do with a wave interference and not a vacuum.I don't think it's sound waves. I'm pretty sure it's the Bernoulli principle wherein the fast moving air creates a low pressure area.

You can do a simple experiment to demonstrate it. Cut a 2"x2" piece of card stock. Insert a straight pin thru the center. Insert that into the end of a spool of thread and blow thru the other end of the spool. The air coming out of the spool creates a low pressure area which sucks the card to the spool.

This is pretty much the same thing going on when a rocket gets stuck on the pad due to Krushnik.

Doug

.

[LW Bercini]

I don't think it's sound waves. I'm pretty sure it's the Bernoulli principle wherein the fast moving air creates a low pressure area.

You can do a simple experiment to demonstrate it. Cut a 2"x2" piece of card stock. Insert a straight pin thru the center. Insert that into the end of a spool of thread and blow thru the other end of the spool. The air coming out of the spool creates a low pressure area which sucks the card to the spool.

This is pretty much the same thing going on when a rocket gets stuck on the pad due to Krushnik.

Doug

.


I should have known better than:
1) Try to recall the details of something I read once, approximately 20 years ago, and
2) Ever post anything to an online forum without researching it first, because any error brings about a swift correction :D

[Doug Sams]

I should have known better than:
1) Try to recall the details of something I read once, approximately 20 years ago, and
2) Ever post anything to an online forum without researching it first, because any error brings about a swift correction :DSorry. I wasn't trying to be unfriendly.

Keep posting. I promise, I won't bite :)

Doug

.

[LW Bercini]

Sorry. I wasn't trying to be unfriendly.

Keep posting. I promise, I won't bite :)

Doug

.

No worries. No offense taken.

[tbzep]

Keep posting. I promise, I won't bite :)

But he will pull hair and scratch. :D

[captain26]

Recovery question? I've built my V with the CDI 29mm upgrade kit which has the ejection baffle. I attached a kevlar line to the mm and want to use one chute for the main body. Was thinking of using a 36" chute? Is this size sufficient or would it need larger? Thanks as usual

[jetlag]

Recovery question? I've built my V with the CDI 29mm upgrade kit which has the ejection baffle. I attached a kevlar line to the mm and want to use one chute for the main body. Was thinking of using a 36" chute? Is this size sufficient or would it need larger? Thanks as usual

The main chutes Estes uses are 2 x 24 inch chutes, as I'm sure you know. I think the body comes down a bit fast even using those.
So, I would start with a 48 inch chute, then consider going to 60 inches, given the extra weight you will have. Others will weigh in, I hope...

Allen

[Doug Sams]

The main chutes Estes uses are 2 x 24 inch chutes, as I'm sure you know. I think the body comes down a bit fast even using those.
So, I would start with a 48 inch chute, then consider going to 60 inches, given the extra weight you will have. Others will weigh in, I hope...Allen,

Keep in mind, the drag varies with area - ie, with the square of the diameter. So a 48" chute will have approximately four times the drag of a 24.

To get a single equivalent to two 24's, the diameter will be sqrt(24^2+24^2)=~34". So a 36" chute would / should be equivalent.

A 48" chute should have about twice the drag of a 36".

As for a 60", I'd be afraid of it thermalling away on anything bigger than the 48" :)
...
I started building one of these about 40 years ago. At the time, my skills were pretty limited. I think about all I'd accomplished was to glue a few tubes together and assemble the chutes. I recall one day walking into the living and seeing my young cousin had found my chutes. He was swinging them around and pulling quite hard on them to keep them billowed. As I recall, he parted several of the suspension lines. Needless to say, I was angry. Later, the unfinished Sat V got crushed when I pushed the bed and accidentally pinned it to the wall :(

One of these days, I'm gonna start on one of the Saturns I have in my stash.

Doug

.

[captain26]

Doug and Allen, thanks for your responses. I'll try it with the 36" and adjust if needed. The last Saturn V I built was in the spring/summer of 1970 and used the 3 x 18 cluster. I flew the maiden in my grandpaw's pasture but only two of the three lit. Needless to say, it came off the rod, did a U-turn and pranged good ole Mother Earth HARD! I was almost 14 and had spent 4 or 5 months building it so I took the crash hard. Threw it in my closet and I guess my Mom threw it out when I left home?? This time I hope for a much better outcome!

[Doug Sams]

This time I hope for a much better outcome!I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you ;)

BTW, the book on these is to use an E15-4 SU motor (or E18 reload). Perhaps the forthcoming Estes E12 would be a good fit, too, but check the CG first.

Doug

.

[captain26]

Yes sir, with the resin parts and 29mm upgrade I'll need more push than a D12. I've read several threads/reviews on the Saturn and the E is highly recommended.

[Gabriel315]

I will buy the Saturn very soon, maybe in two or three weeks. I am a little confused with the paint. I want to use Testors Enamel Spray paint but in this thread I have seen some guys that have painted with Testors Paint Markers. I want to know which of these two methods (paint markers or spray bottles) do you recommend me more. Thanks you

I am not a beginner nor an expert. I have build some rockets like the Estes Amazon, Cossfire ISX, Helicat, Metalizer and the DR. Zooch Space Shuttle. You may want to consider that too.

Thanks!!!

[jharding58]

The issue is the corrugations on the plastic wraps. They are rather aggressive in nature and their masking leaves the opportunity for leaks on the colour boundary. One needs to carefully follow the depressions with tape in order to have a clean demarcation. The marker technique is supposed to simplify the process.

Give me back the card wraps and plastic detail parts any day!

[Gabriel315]

The issue is the corrugations on the plastic wraps. They are rather aggressive in nature and their masking leaves the opportunity for leaks on the colour boundary. One needs to carefully follow the depressions with tape in order to have a clean demarcation. The marker technique is supposed to simplify the process.

Give me back the card wraps and plastic detail parts any day!

I think I will use Spray paint. I have learned some techniques with some videos and I think they will be useful now. I will buy 1/8" masking or pinstriping tape for the curved areas. That will help me a lot!. The other thing I wanted to ask, can I paint with spray paint and then retouch the difficult parts with a paint marker?

I was thinking on the paint type: Gloss or Flat. I was thinking on using gloss because it is easier to put decals on and easier to clean while flat pick up the oil on your skin.

I can spray a dull coat to give a gloss finish to the model but I has some experiences in which the white paint turns yellowish. I can't use Testors Clear Glosscoat Spray enamel because it is says lacquer.

Thanks!!!

[jharding58]

Another disadvantage of matte is that it collects and retains dust and dirt. Flying in the SE there can be a permanent red haze at launches and this just seems to be attracted to a matte black finish.

[Gabriel315]

Another disadvantage of matte is that it collects and retains dust and dirt. Flying in the SE there can be a permanent red haze at launches and this just seems to be attracted to a matte black finish.

Thanks You Jharding58. Gloss paint it is. I am sure.

I also have a little doubts on filling the fins with epoxy, foam in a can or any other filling material.

What you recommend me?

thanks you!!

[Robobud]

Has anyone tried to get replacement parts from Estes? I had an overenthusiastic little boy grab the top section and crush the 3rd stage reduction wrapper and was hoping I wouldnt have to purchase a whole new kit just to get it....

[Gabriel315]

Has anyone tried to get replacement parts from Estes? I had an overenthusiastic little boy grab the top section and crush the 3rd stage reduction wrapper and was hoping I wouldnt have to purchase a whole new kit just to get it....

That is a real problem. I contacted Estes and they told me that the production of the Saturn V has stopped. You must contact Estes at once but through Facebook because they don't answer emails.

Hope this works!

[Robobud]

Thanks...I will try that.

[SEL]

The Krushnic Effect is definitely real. I had an Estes Hercules that kicked the booster motor without kicking off the booster airframe. The A8-5 burnt out the booster motor tube, but the sustainer did not gain much altitude after staging. For this flight, the sustainer motor acted like a delay train, instead of taking the upper stage to the significantly higher altitude that it would have reached if everything had worked normally. :( I suspect that if I had used a B or C motor instead of an A8-5, the booster airframe (BT-50) might have been burnt away as well.

I can confirm that a C motor will indeed burn trough both the motor and airframe tubes . All that's left of my Hercules lower stage is the fins held together by the Ar-2050 rings. I'll post pics later

S.

[Randy]

Has anyone tried to get replacement parts from Estes? I had an overenthusiastic little boy grab the top section and crush the 3rd stage reduction wrapper and was hoping I wouldnt have to purchase a whole new kit just to get it....

Sorry to hear about the problem but a damaged 3rd stage wrapper is quite common, we've replaced a couple over the years.. If everything else is ok just get some heavy card stock, use the old wrapper as a template and replace it. No need to wait to hear from Estes or delay rerpairs.

Just a thought.

Randy
www.vernarockets.com

[SEL]

I can confirm that a C motor will indeed burn trough both the motor and airframe tubes . All that's left of my Hercules lower stage is the fins held together by the Ar-2050 rings. I'll post pics later

S.

And here are the pics...

[mwtoelle]

Bummer. At least in my case, I was able to replace the motor tube with a longer one that contains a rear thrust ring. I haven't had a repeat of kicking out the booster motor without kicking off the booster airframe.

[SEL]

Bummer. At least in my case, I was able to replace the motor tube with a longer one that contains a rear thrust ring. I haven't had a repeat of kicking out the booster motor without kicking off the booster airframe.

Don't feel to bad - this happened back in 1987/88.

S.

[mwtoelle]

My incident happened on 2 Oct 1993. It surprised a number of veteran fliers at that launch.

[Swillie]

My Saturn V is currently rising out of the clutter on my work table. I still am undecided on how I will paint this thing, Im am leaning toward flat white spraypaint and using pinstripe tape to define the black areas and hand painting flat black to fill in.

I put the longer Estes 'E' engine hook in. I figure I can use the D12-3 with a spacer, but I have the new Estes E12-4's on order and that is what I plan to use. I have read that putting the CG 17.5 inches up from the bottom of the fairings when fully prepped will be stable. Was wondering where and what should I use to add nose weight?? I was going to put clay up in the LEM before gluing it in place but I am wondering if the extra weight will affect the ability of the recovery harness to hold the tower up at an angle for a safe landing. Maybe I should add weight lower down in the middle of the upper section so it will hang under the parachute properly. I might be overthinking things, just trying to avoid any conceivable problem. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Steve

[Randy]

Steve,

You must not add weight if flying a stock Estes Sat V on a D12-3! You never add weight to the lower section of any rocket, always to the nose and only what's needed. You do not need to add any weight as long as you stick with the engines listed in your last post.

You might consider using a 4 foot long 3/16ths rod.

Randy
www.vernarockets.com

[Swillie]

Steve,

You must not add weight if flying a stock Estes Sat V on a D12-3! You never add weight to the lower section of any rocket, always to the nose and only what's needed. You do not need to add any weight as long as you stick with the engines listed in your last post.

You might consider using a 4 foot long 3/16ths rod.

Randy
www.vernarockets.com

Thanks Randy..... maybe my post was misleading, I just meant adding any needed weight slightly below the capsule centered under the upper parachute harness to keep it hanging properly during recovery.

Anyway the Estes E12 is the motor I am planning to use. I was thinking it will be heavier than the D12 and that I would need to add a little nose weight to get the CG back to that 17.5 point. So I guess if I do that it would have to be removeable for a D12-3 flight, but if the E12 works out like I hope I will probably just stick with that motor anyway.

Ok I did a little research, the D12-3 is around 37g and the E12-4 is around 57g weight. Do you think I will need to balance out that difference with nose weight or will she fly stable just built stock. The mount is recessed in 3 3/8" as per the instructions and I have really tried to build this rocket as 'light' as I could. Once it is painted I will have to prep it and see where the CG is at. The E12 has a slightly higher initial thrust which should help overcome the slighly higher propellant weight.

[Randy]

Steve,

I assume you're building the most recent release. Check the instructions but I think stock, you're good to go on an E without any weight. If you were to go to an F or clustered or move the mount back to the rear, then yep a little weight would be needed but like I said, if it's stock I think the instructions say for D or E engines. Either way, it would not take much.

Randy
www.vernarockets.com

[JumpJet]

The new Estes E12 motor flies the Saturn V great. You could either modifty your motor mount to accept the longer motor or simply tape the E12 in place which is what I did when I test flew the motor in the Saturn.


John Boren

[Swillie]

The new Estes E12 motor flies the Saturn V great. You could either modifty your motor mount to accept the longer motor or simply tape the E12 in place which is what I did when I test flew the motor in the Saturn.


John Boren

Thanks John....I built the motor mount with the E sized hook so its ready for the E12... So I needn't worry about adding nose weight. Great. Do you have a rough idea what height the Saturn acheived with the E12 ??

[JumpJet]

I would say somewhere arounf 450 feet or so.


John Boren

[Swillie]

Thought to mention on this thread for whomever is gonna build this kit, If you are going to put the motor mount in the suggested 3 3/8 inch deep, do not use carpenters wood glue on the bottom ring... it sits just above the lower wrap and you will get a visible recessed ring on the body tube. I used Titebond wood/trim on the upper ring which doesnt shrink, no problem there. I used the yellow glue on the bottom ring because I read somewhere the lower wrap hid the bottom ring but i should have done the math on it first.

I am doing the mask/ spray method afterall. The interstage section was sadistic... found 6 mm Tamiya tape at HobbyLobby, that stuff works really well for defining the edges. Sprayed 1 coat of flat white first to seal the edges, than 2 coats flat black... a few touchups will be needed here and there but so far i am pleased with the result.

[jetlag]

That looks really, really nice! Great job on the painting.

As for the wood glue problem, I use epoxy (30minute) so this will not happen. There is practically no weight penalty, and one can position the mount in plenty of time, and it's very strong. Epoxy=win-win-win!

No one will notice the slight imperfection on yours because it looks so good anyway!

Allen

[Randy]

It looks very nice. Most Estes Saturns have the same problem. White glue doesn't seem to do that as bad when building stock and if you build it to be removable it eliminates the chance. No one will notice, the rest looks great!

Get another and cluster it! You can't have too many Saturn V's. ;)

Randy
www.vernarockets.com

[Gabriel315]

Hello guys.
Will a need any special epoxy to avoid the recess mark of the ring?
The glue I am using in all my models is Lanco Grip Bond 2 (white glue). Will that work?
Please let me know what specific glue should I use.
Thanks!!!

[Swillie]

Hello guys.
Will a need any special epoxy to avoid the recess mark of the ring?
The glue I am using in all my models is Lanco Grip Bond 2 (white glue). Will that work?
Please let me know what specific glue should I use.
Thanks!!!

Well Jetlag mentioned above that 30 minute epoxy works great without shrinking like the elmers carpenter wood glue (yellow glue) does. I have not used epoxy much myself, the more i read the more I think I need to start practicing with that stuff. I use Titebond Mold and Trim on fillets for wood fin rockets because it tends not to shrink, holds the fillet shpe better. I used it on the upper ring and had no problem with it pulling in the body tube after what happened when the lower ring dried. Maybe someone else on here is familier with the Lanco Grip Bond.

here is a pic where you can see the ring , but only at a certain time of day and the sunlight has to hit it at just the right angle :rolleyes:

[Gabriel315]

That looks really, really nice! Great job on the painting.

As for the wood glue problem, I use epoxy (30minute) so this will not happen. There is practically no weight penalty, and one can position the mount in plenty of time, and it's very strong. Epoxy=win-win-win!

No one will notice the slight imperfection on yours because it looks so good anyway!

Allen

What epoxy didi you used?

[jetlag]

I use the ZAP epoxy, but most of the hobby shop brands will work fine. I like the 30 min cure stuff because of the ample time it gives you to square things up like you want, and because of the longer cure time, it soaks into the pores of your substrate material very well. Plus, it's strong as an ox!
Just eyeball the mix 1:1 hardener to resin, stir up well, and apply. Clean up with rubbing alcohol. You can even thin the mixture with alcohol, but I do that for R/C plane firewalls and such. Makes fabulous fillets, too. No bubbles. Flows flat. I use pudding or Jello cups to mix it in and just mix one batch over another 'til the cup gets too full of hardened epoxy, then throw it away.
Don't worry about the so-called weight penalty; it is minor 95% of the time.

Someone even makes colored powders you can mix in the epoxy to change its color to whatever you need! (West Systems?)

Allen

[captain26]

Swillie, your Saturn looks great! I wouldn't worry about the slight ring, when it's climbing up the launch rod under power, no one will notice! I'm also at the paint stage where I'm applying roll patterns, you're right the interstage masking was torture.

[Gabriel315]

Well Jetlag mentioned above that 30 minute epoxy works great without shrinking like the elmers carpenter wood glue (yellow glue) does. I have not used epoxy much myself, the more i read the more I think I need to start practicing with that stuff. I use Titebond Mold and Trim on fillets for wood fin rockets because it tends not to shrink, holds the fillet shpe better. I used it on the upper ring and had no problem with it pulling in the body tube after what happened when the lower ring dried. Maybe someone else on here is familier with the Lanco Grip Bond.

here is a pic where you can see the ring , but only at a certain time of day and the sunlight has to hit it at just the right angle :rolleyes:
Swillie, I thought it was worst! It doesn't look so bad!!! and anyone will notice in the launch area. Great work in the model though, the painting patters look awesome!!

[jharding58]

Anyone that gives you grief about a dimples on the tube and ignores the sharp, clean, colour edges and the quality of the build has the heart of a Tinman.

[Gabriel315]

OK guys, I need help choosing my paint for the model!!!.
I was thinking of testors but it is super expensive!!! I would need around 12oz of white paint (i think)

Please, every ecomendation will be well received!!!

Thanks!!

[tbzep]

OK guys, I need help choosing my paint for the model!!!.
I was thinking of testors but it is super expensive!!! I would need around 12oz of white paint (i think)

Please, every ecomendation will be well received!!!

Thanks!!Walmart gloss white works well and costs a fraction of the small Testors cans. Valspar and Rustoleum make gloss white and gloss black in both enamel and lacquer. If you are in a low humidity area, the lacquer works great and cures super fast. They cost about the same as Testors, but you will have enough for several rockets.

BTW, I like using Plasti-kote or Duplicolor lacquer primer. On a good day, you can start sanding the Plasti-kote in 15-30 minutes and within an hour or two on the Duplicolor.

[Gabriel315]

Thanks you very much, Tbzep. What do you think about Krylon Gloss spray paint. It seems to be very good and I can buy it on Walmart too. Thanks you very much!

[rocketguy101]

Walmart gloss white works well and costs a fraction of the small Testors cans. Valspar and Rustoleum make gloss white and gloss black in both enamel and lacquer. If you are in a low humidity area, the lacquer works great and cures super fast. They cost about the same as Testors, but you will have enough for several rockets.

BTW, I like using Plasti-kote or Duplicolor lacquer primer. On a good day, you can start sanding the Plasti-kote in 15-30 minutes and within an hour or two on the Duplicolor.
+1 on Duplicolor...I buy mine at the NAPA auto parts store. New formula Krylon is iffy

[Gabriel315]

+1 on Duplicolor...I buy mine at the NAPA auto parts store. New formula Krylon is iffy

Why is the Krylon new formula iffy? Thanks!

What I am searching for is for a good gloss white paint, but I want to use all my paints from the same brand to avoid chemical reactions, etc.

I will need gloss white, gloss black and gloss gunmetal.

[rocketguy101]

Why is the Krylon new formula iffy? Thanks!

What I am searching for is for a good gloss white paint, but I want to use all my paints from the same brand to avoid chemical reactions, etc.

I will need gloss white, gloss black and gloss gunmetal.
there were several threads about Krylon when they changed their formula...search on krylon

part of the problem is the weird re-coat time requirement now and compatibility w/ old Krylon -- I believe they changed from a laquer base to enamel base ... I guess if you are starting from scratch and used all new-formula Krylon you won't have some of the issues.

[Gabriel315]

there were several threads about Krylon when they changed their formula...search on krylon

part of the problem is the weird re-coat time requirement now and compatibility w/ old Krylon -- I believe they changed from a laquer base to enamel base ... I guess if you are starting from scratch and used all new-formula Krylon you won't have some of the issues.

Thanks. I think I will not use Krylon. I saw bad reviews about it. Now I am thinking on Rust- Oleum Painters Touch 2x that many rocketeers are using now.

What you think about it?

[Swillie]

Thanks. I think I will not use Krylon. I saw bad reviews about it. Now I am thinking on Rust- Oleum Painters Touch 2x that many rocketeers are using now.

What you think about it?

I used all Rust- Oleum Painters Touch 2x for my Saturn, I used the white primer, flat white and flat black and am pleased with how they performed . Flat paint is easy to work with though, but I used the Rusto gloss on my Ventris with no runs, came out nice just be patient and use multiple light coats as always. Decals are done so I plan to finish with Rusto flat clear, but I am giving the rocket a few days to dry first. I would give the gloss paints at least a week to dry before clear coat, I have waited 2 days and still crinkled the color coat when applying the clear on gloss paint, no way you want that to happen with your Saturn after all the work it takes to build.

[jetlag]

I used all Rust- Oleum Painters Touch 2x for my Saturn, I used the white primer, flat white and flat black and am pleased with how they performed . Flat paint is easy to work with though, but I used the Rusto gloss on my Ventris with no runs, came out nice just be patient and use multiple light coats as always. Decals are done so I plan to finish with Rusto flat clear, but I am giving the rocket a few days to dry first. I would give the gloss paints at least a week to dry before clear coat, I have waited 2 days and still crinkled the color coat when applying the clear on gloss paint, no way you want that to happen with your Saturn after all the work it takes to build.

Probably shoulda used the Pledge for a clear coat...It does not seem to react much with other finishes...

[Swillie]

Probably shoulda used the Pledge for a clear coat...It does not seem to react much with other finishes...

I have switched to pledge and love it, easy to use and super shine. I had one instance where the actual pledge coat cracked all over like a desert, but was still smooth to the touch and it did not affect the base color. I think the gloss paint still needed to dry longer.

The Saturn V had a matte finish to it, so if you are going to apply a matte clear as I am than pledge is not gonna work.

[jetlag]

I have switched to pledge and love it, easy to use and super shine. I had one instance where the actual pledge coat cracked all over like a desert, but was still smooth to the touch and it did not affect the base color. I think the gloss paint still needed to dry longer.

The Saturn V had a matte finish to it, so if you are going to apply a matte clear as I am than pledge is not gonna work.

Yeah, that gloss might should have dried a bit longer. You can use a bit of ammonia to cut that cracked finish and remove it and then reapply.

As to your wanting to be 'scale' with a matte finish: true she had a flat finish, but if you're going to do a lot of launching, that flat finish is gonna show every single sooty fingerprint you even breathe on it. Quite difficult to clean it all off, whereas it's much easier to clean if it were a gloss. Gloss=not scale but easier it maintain and a must for applying decals; flat=scale but a PIA to keep looking nice and must apply over the decals.

Whatever you prefer will work, though! As long as YOU are happy with it!

Allen

[Swillie]

Yeah, that gloss might should have dried a bit longer. You can use a bit of ammonia to cut that cracked finish and remove it and then reapply.

As to your wanting to be 'scale' with a matte finish: true she had a flat finish, but if you're going to do a lot of launching, that flat finish is gonna show every single sooty fingerprint you even breathe on it. Quite difficult to clean it all off, whereas it's much easier to clean if it were a gloss. Gloss=not scale but easier it maintain and a must for applying decals; flat=scale but a PIA to keep looking nice and must apply over the decals.

Whatever you prefer will work, though! As long as YOU are happy with it!

Allen

You have a good point about keeping the finish clean. The only flat paint i have used previous have been olive drab so I havent noticed so much but the white would get dirty easily.

What do you think about a satin finish as a compromise, do they clean up easily?

[jetlag]

I have never used a satin finish before, but it might be just the compromise you are looking for. One thing to remember though, is you will need a gloss finish for the decals to work properly, anyway. THEN, you can flatten it or satinize it as you prefer. Just use a clear that will not harm the decals...

Hope this helps!

Allen