FSI 21mm Motor Boxes

[stefanj]

In the early to late 70s (1983 at the very latest; that's when the motors were listed as "discontinued" in the price sheet). FSI packed its 21mm x 70mm motors (A4 through D6) in little red boxes.

I didn't get a lot of motors in these sizes. Maybe half a dozen boxes. Two survived the decades. Both are intact but in shabby shape. One lived in my range box for more than two decades, acting as an igniter storage box.

I scanned the flattened out boxes this afternoon, and just now took pictures:
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6168/6193683181_8b26d544c5_b.jpg

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6121/6193683185_32bda72157_z.jpg

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6167/6193683187_824b9d0a41_z.jpg

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6162/6193683193_9a247bf501_z.jpg

The A4-2 box was marked ".90" in pen, the C4-4 ".95". I think. The ink is very faded.

I don't remember if FSI ever packed 21mm x 70mm motors in plastic bags (as were all the other motors), or if that size was simply dropped.

[Mark II]

These photos have my eyes popping out of my head. :D So these are, what, mid- to late-70s vintage? Do you still have any of the motors, and especially, the igniters? (I have seen precious little of the former, and no photos at all of the latter.)

[stefanj]

I have no 21mm x 70mm motors left. I used the last ones in the late '80s.

OK. I broke out the camera again.

Late-80s, maybe early 90s B6-5 motors:
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6166/6193798879_5a7c2c85b1_z.jpg
I maybe bought three or four FSI 18mm motor packs . . . just wasn't worth specially getting them when there were MRC and Estes motors a plenty around. When I bought FSI it was the big stuff.

Same-era E6-5:
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6014/6193798883_3f1476a1c6_z.jpg
I bought and used plenty of those! I pretty much wore out my poor old Viking II.

Ditto, E60-6:
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6164/6193798899_7321610621_z.jpg
I burned a fair number of these through the years, but not compared to my F100 count!

This is what an FSI igniter looked like. It might not be an actual FSI igniter, but a substitute sold by North Coast Rocketry. They were essentially a 1" to 4" long piece of thermalite wick. A brittle stick of flammable stuff wrapped in wires and then wrapped in floss-like protective fabric.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6176/6193798901_578e6ee3ab_z.jpg

I have some "naked" 21mm x 95mm D18 motors and some F100 and F7 motors which I will photograph another day.

[Mark II]

Black powder E60s............

Wowwww! :)

The Bs and Es do look very much like Estes motors. It appears that for a time nearly everyone and his brother were making, or at least selling under their own label, essentially the same or very similar motors. At the time the market must have been big enough to justify that, I guess. Many companies also did seem to offer some that were uniquely their own, too.

[Ltvscout]

In the early to late 70s (1983 at the very latest; that's when the motors were listed as "discontinued" in the price sheet). FSI packed its 21mm x 70mm motors (A4 through D6) in little red boxes.
Cool. I have one of these boxes, with motors still in it, in my collection. It's buried so I don't recall the size motors in there.

[Royatl]

I've got a red box. I think there are A4 motors in it. All the other FSI motors I have are loose or bagged.

[Ltvscout]

I've got a red box. I think there are A4 motors in it. All the other FSI motors I have are loose or bagged.
I have a '77 FSI catalog (which is up on Ninfinger) and used to drool over those big motors, but never bought any before I got out of the hobby when I started college. I now have a crapload of FSI bagged motors that I got off of eBay about 12yrs ago before they cracked down on selling motors, from the old ROL auctions and from Kevin when he owned Countdown Hobbies. I also now have most of the kits. I've yet to build or launch any of them on some of those old motors though. :rolleyes:

[shockwaveriderz]

If I'm not mistaken, the E60's were F-100's in an earlier incarnation. FSI finally got around to properly labeling their motors very late in the game. The A's were B's, the Bs,'C's the C's, D's etc....they drove the NAR S&T crazy.


Terry Dean

Great pics by the way.....

[Doug Sams]

If I'm not mistaken, the E60's were F-100's in an earlier incarnation. FSI finally got around to properly labeling their motors very late in the game. The A's were B's, the Bs,'C's the C's, D's etc....they drove the NAR S&T crazy.


Terry Dean

Great pics by the way.....Terry,

I think it's both. That is, early on, there was indeed an E60 alongside the F100. (Reference the 77 catalog.) It does not appear in later catalogs. But, as I recall, the F100 was ultimately redesignated. Not sure if it became a latter day E60, or if they called it something else, but that gibes with your story.

FWIW, I have an E60-0 at the house I've been hoping to getting around to flying one of these days, but I'm not sure when it was made - that is, if it's the earlier E60, or the redesignated F100. It's about 4 inches long, maybe a little longer, and a few tape wraps shy of fitting a 29mm tube.

<research timeout...Jeopardy music playing in the background>

In the 77 catalog, the F100 is described as being 27 x 150mm, so I'm thinking mine is the earlier E60, which, given what we know of FSI motors, is probably more like a D40 :)

Doug

.

[ghrocketman]

The E60's were labeled correctly.
FSI E60s were and are still the most cato prone motors I ever had the DIS-pleasure of owning/flying; well OVER a 50% cato rate no matter if the igniter was placed top, bottom, or middle of core. They made a lot better M-80s than rocket motors.

The F100's were actually like F70's.
Most D, E, and F FSI motors BARELY tested into the impulse they were labeled and sometimes not even.
The F100's and F7's usually tested between 38 and 45 n-sec, even though they were listed as 50 and 55n-sec respectively.
The E60's were usually somewhere around 35n-sec
The awful E6x motors were sometimes below 20 nsec and barely equal in total impulse to the Estes D12. Think of the E6 as a REALLY WEAK version of the weak-thrusting Estes E9.

[stefanj]

The F100 (whatever its real designation) and F7 were around since forever. In fact, the first FSI catalog has the English designations!

The E60 and D20 "loadlifters" were introduced in the late 70s. They were the first black powder motors introduced by FSI in years, and would be the last until the MPC motor machine was revived and FSI began turning out 18mm A-C motors.

The E60 is still shown in the 1993 catalog. It was cato prone.

I can't find evidence of it now, but I recall that the last FSI catalog dropped the F7 and relabeled the F100 as the F80. I think we'll need to find a 1994 catalog for confirmation. I vaguely recall DISCONTINUED printed over the F7 listing.

In any case, the designation change wouldn't have involved resizing the case. The F100 was always around 6" long. The E60 was indeed about 4" long.

Note @ Mark II: The E5 motors pictured above were not like Estes motors. Longer, thicker, different nozzle. I'll make photos of loose motors tonight.


* * *

No matter what its designation, the F100 was a GLORIOUS motor. A smoky, loud, kick-in-the-pants that got a model moving. I used to stage them, cluster them. Went through dozens.

I'll have pictures of some of THEM tonight as well.

[Joe Wooten]

The F100 (whatever its real designation) and F7 were around since forever. In fact, the first FSI catalog has the English designations!

The E60 and D20 "loadlifters" were introduced in the late 70s. They were the first black powder motors introduced by FSI in years, and would be the last until the MPC motor machine was revived and FSI began turning out 18mm A-C motors.

The E60 is still shown in the 1993 catalog. It was cato prone.

I can't find evidence of it now, but I recall that the last FSI catalog dropped the F7 and relabeled the F100 as the F80. I think we'll need to find a 1994 catalog for confirmation. I vaguely recall DISCONTINUED printed over the F7 listing.

In any case, the designation change wouldn't have involved resizing the case. The F100 was always around 6" long. The E60 was indeed about 4" long.

Note @ Mark II: The E5 motors pictured above were not like Estes motors. Longer, thicker, different nozzle. I'll make photos of loose motors tonight.


* * *

No matter what its designation, the F100 was a GLORIOUS motor. A smoky, loud, kick-in-the-pants that got a model moving. I used to stage them, cluster them. Went through dozens.

I'll have pictures of some of THEM tonight as well.

The F-100 was a great motor. They made excellent strapon booster motors for parallel staging. I never had a failure with them. The F7's were nice ones too. The E60's were nothing but CATO bombs. Failed more often than succeeded.

[ghrocketman]

I had about a 60% cato rate with the E60 no matter how they were ignited.
Used to be around a 25% cato rate on the F100 until I switched to igniting them in the middle of the core.

[Earl]

FSI E60s were and are still the most cato prone motors I ever had the DIS-pleasure of owning/flying; well OVER a 50% cato rate no matter if the igniter was placed top, bottom, or middle of core.

Yes, I recall seeing a great many E60 catos. I personally experienced a fair number of F7 catos.


Earl

[stefanj]

Well, turns out I don't have any F100 motors of any sort left. But there's enough variety to keep taking pictures.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6021/6197027908_d3cc71cb66_m.jpg

From left to right:
18mm x 70mm Estes motor
24mm x 70mm Estes D12 motor
24mm x 90mm Estes E9 motor
21mm x 95mm FSI D20 motor
27mm x 120mm FSI E60
27mm x 150mm FSI F7-4
27mm x 150mm FSI F7-6

The F100 was the same size as the F7.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6136/6197027896_f8fe504e9f.jpg
Front of instructions. That's an E60 igniter. You can find the directions in the FSI catalogs reprinted on the Ninfinger site.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6162/6197027904_ba11c38f09.jpg
Rear of directions. Or maybe this is the front. Here you learn how to shape and insert igniters.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6012/6196531379_2dfed74b54.jpg
Nozzle of D20 motor. This was a core burning middle-range D, introduced the same year (1977) as the E60. Good for getting things moving. I have a half-dozen or so D20-0 left, plugged with epoxy up front. I bought them to use with my Intrepid, which used plugged D20s in the outboard pods. Someday I'll build a similar model to use these up in.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6168/6196531381_549d01056e.jpg
Nozzle of E60 motor. Big! Clearly defined expansion bell. Wide throat. The F100 had an even bigger nozzle.
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6143/6196531387_7c955ab3b0.jpg
Nozzle of F7 motor. Kind of beat up.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6156/6197027926_0854c3b50a.jpg
F7 motor labels, front. 1988 and 1993. The latter was probably one of the last runs of the motor.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6162/6197027932_22b5a0af18.jpg
F7 motor labels, rear. Note difference in fonts.

[Mark II]

Terry,

I think it's both. That is, early on, there was indeed an E60 alongside the F100. (Reference the 77 catalog.) It does not appear in later catalogs. But, as I recall, the F100 was ultimately redesignated. Not sure if it became a latter day E60, or if they called it something else, but that gibes with your story.The F100 was redesignated as an F80 by NAR in 1997, three years after FSI went out of business.

http://www.nar.org/SandT/releases/R38.html

The listing (http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/catalogs/fsi90/90fsi22.jpg) (p. 21) for the F7 motor in the 1990 FSI catalog at Ninfinger does indeed bear the stamp "OUT OF PRODUCTION." The same listing in the 1993 catalog (http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/catalogs/fsi93/93fsi22.jpg) does not, however.

[stefanj]

I recall talk, on the old rocketry USENET group, of the F7 being reworked. There was a feeling at the time that FSI was starting to "lose it." Quality may have gone downhill after Harold Reese passed away. According to Al Andrake he was the guy who ran the motor press.

Hey, it turns out I have a 1988 FSI catalog! This was the year I got back into the hobby, after getting my first after-college job. ($$$).

Unlike 1986 and 1990, it has funky drawings of the kits.

I'll scan it in someday.

[Mark II]

I recall talk, on the old rocketry USENET group, of the F7 being reworked. There was a feeling at the time that FSI was starting to "lose it." Quality may have gone downhill after Harold Reese passed away. According to Al Andrake he was the guy who ran the motor press.

Hey, it turns out I have a 1988 FSI catalog! This was the year I got back into the hobby, after getting my first after-college job. ($$$).

Unlike 1986 and 1990, it has funky drawings of the kits.

I'll scan it in someday.I thought it was Lonnie Reese who passed away. Something having to do with a motorcycle accident?

I want to see that catalog! :D

[Ltvscout]

Stefan,

You should contact Dale Windsor. He may be interested in your photos for his Model Rocket Motor Museum website.

He is a user here. I believe his handle is his name all run together without any spaces.

[mojo1986]

The awful E6x motors were sometimes below 20 nsec and barely equal in total impulse to the Estes D12. Think of the E6 as a REALLY WEAK version of the weak-thrusting Estes E9.

Loved that phenomenal 5 second burn, though!

[ghrocketman]

The 5sec burn of the E6 and the 9-sec burn of the F7 was great, but due to the low overall thrust, they assured usage in a light rocket that was an almost guaranteed loss. The F7 was too heavy to cluster as well.

[stefanj]

Lonnie Reese was a very active model rocketeer who went to NARAM and such. I remember a photo of him dressed up like Robert Goddard, igniting a replica of Goddard's first liquid fuel rocket.

Yes, he died in some sort of automotive accident in '84. I think this took a lot of the wind out of FSI's sails for many years.

Harold was Lonnie's father. He was a very old guy (and a chain smoker!) when I met him at the FSI plant in 1990. (Smoking and making BP motors seems like a bad combination . . . but I don't think that was what did him in!) I don't know exactly when he passed away, but it was probably the beginning of the end for the company.

[Mark II]

The awful E6x motors were sometimes below 20 nsec and barely equal in total impulse to the Estes D12. Think of the E6 as a REALLY WEAK version of the weak-thrusting Estes E9.A motor that thrusts for 5 seconds at a steady level of 6 Newtons is an E-class glider motor. Too bad FSI never released a glider kit.

AeroTech makes an E6 reload for its 24mm reloadable RC glider motor case. Apogee sells an E6 as well, which might just be the same item but repackaged by AT for Tim, who then sells it as a single use rocket motor. Apogee's Medalist Motors are made by AeroTech.

In spite of its mass and heft (which must have been substantial, I assume), could the F7 have been useful in rocket gliders as well?

[Mark II]

Lonnie Reese was a very active model rocketeer who went to NARAM and such. I remember a photo of him dressed up like Robert Goddard, igniting a replica of Goddard's first liquid fuel rocket.

Yes, he died in some sort of automotive accident in '84. I think this took a lot of the wind out of FSI's sails for many years.

Harold was Lonnie's father. He was a very old guy (and a chain smoker!) when I met him at the FSI plant in 1990. (Smoking and making BP motors seems like a bad combination . . . but I don't think that was what did him in!) I don't know exactly when he passed away, but it was probably the beginning of the end for the company.Were any other Reese family members involved in running the company? I dimly recall reading something about another Reese, brother of Lonnie, who also worked for FSI.

FSI's motor-making machines (their "Mabels") were used to turn out motors for Quest, right? Quest Aerospace went into business in 1992, so its earliest years and FSI's last years overlapped.

[Neal Miller]

Were any other Reese family members involved in running the company? I dimly recall reading something about another Reese, brother of Lonnie, who also worked for FSI.

FSI's motor-making machines (their "Mabels") were used to turn out motors for Quest, right? Quest Aerospace went into business in 1992, so its earliest years and FSI's last years overlapped.
Mark, I believe that there was also a Larry Reese in the FSI company.
I Don't know for sure; but the current Quest Motors are made in Germany, and look to be the same motors that were that MRC was using back in the 90's. as for the early Quest motors if they where made by any one in the US for Quest I would have to say they where made by Estes. but you could be right because the FSI 18mm motors were made on the old MPC
motor making machine and Quest was using old MPC designs and parts when they started out, so maybe there was some kind of deal with FSI and the MPC Motor making Machine.

Neal

[stefanj]

The early Quest motors, and the FSI 18mm motors, were clearly MPC-style motors.

[Royatl]

I thought it was Lonnie Reese who passed away. Something having to do with a motorcycle accident?

I want to see that catalog! :D

You are correct. Old Harold soldiered on for a few years after Lonnie's death, until he himself died. I was told that Harold had no hearing left after a number of tamping catoes. I don't know the configuration of his press, but apparently things could go wrong with little chance of injury to anything except the ears.

[Initiator001]

Mark, I believe that there was also a Larry Reese in the FSI company.
I Don't know for sure; but the current Quest Motors are made in Germany, and look to be the same motors that were that MRC was using back in the 90's. as for the early Quest motors if they where made by any one in the US for Quest I would have to say they where made by Estes. but you could be right because the FSI 18mm motors were made on the old MPC
motor making machine and Quest was using old MPC designs and parts when they started out, so maybe there was some kind of deal with FSI and the MPC Motor making Machine.

Neal

In the late 1980's, G. Harry and Bill Stine were looking for the MPC motor making machines.

The machines were found but FSI beat the Stines' by a week and bought them first.

FSI only had the machines (In poor condition). G. Harry/Bill had the machine drawings and operations manuals. A deal was reached where Bill would go to FSI and get the machines running and in return FSI would make motors for Bill's company (Later known as Quest).

After this, FSI began making 18mm diameter motors.

I spoke to Harold Reese in the early 90s and he told me the MPC motor machines only had to be operated for one month to make all the 18mm motors FSI would sell in a year. :eek:

BTW, there was never any agreement for Estes to make motors for Quest (But Bill may have asked).

[Mark II]

The early Quest motors, and the FSI 18mm motors, were clearly MPC-style motors.I don't know what you mean by that. What distinguishes "MPC-style" motors? I have never seen them, either.

[Royatl]

I don't know what you mean by that. What distinguishes "MPC-style" motors? I have never seen them, either.
slightly smaller inside diameter; smooth white nozzle with a rounded exit.

[Bazookadale]

The F100 (whatever its real designation) and F7 were around since forever. In fact, the first FSI catalog has the English designations!



.

The English designation for that motor was F18 - if that was accurate, do the math, the metric equivalent would be F80, the F100 was just for advertising. When the regs were changed making anything over 80n average thrust a high power motor they changed the designation to F80, many have said they think the ave thrust was lower than that

[stefanj]

Centuri's Mini Max line included a F97. Just slightly larger diameter than the FSI F motors, and an inch or so longer.

I wonder how it rated.

I never had a chance to use any of the big Centuri motors. Mini-Maxi were out of the distribution channel by the time I could afford them . . . ditto Enerjets. The shipping alone was totally daunting to me at the time.

FSI was there, and able to ship big motors by USPS, for nearly 20 years of my rocketry career. I can forgive them their flakiness and spotty quality. Good times!

[Mark II]

Centuri's Mini Max line included a F97. Just slightly larger diameter than the FSI F motors, and an inch or so longer.

I wonder how it rated.

I never had a chance to use any of the big Centuri motors. Mini-Maxi were out of the distribution channel by the time I could afford them . . . ditto Enerjets. The shipping alone was totally daunting to me at the time.

FSI was there, and able to ship big motors by USPS, for nearly 20 years of my rocketry career. I can forgive them their flakiness and spotty quality. Good times!Well said, Stefan! You have to take the good with the bad, and make your final judgment based on the balance. Not everyone was there at the right historic time and place, or was able to pay the admission price. Mini-Max and Enerjet are revered now, but apparently back in their day if you blinked, you missed them. FSI was in business for 27 years.

[Neal Miller]

Mark, Stefan, it is great to know that there are others who enjoy talking about big black powder motors. as I said before I never had that bad a problem with FSI motor reliability.
All of the 24 to 30 F100's that I launched worked 100%. the only problems I ever had were a
couple of E60's and one D20-0. and for those who need to know I have sent the following :
Pic #1 comparison of nozzles MPC/FSI/ COX Motors (1970's)
Pic # 2 MPC/ FSI/ COX 18mm motors.
Pic # 3 FSI 70 X 21, 95 X21 & 150 X 27 mm Motors.
Pic # 4 FSI RX-1 THRUSTER SYSTEM With F100-0 with fins and D20-12 for use with MACH 1
DART for Super Sonic Flight. I enjoyed all of this and will fly all these motors except the
70 X21mm and the Thruster System. Neal

http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa361/nealmiller1/Picture007.jpg
http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa361/nealmiller1/Picture006.jpg
http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa361/nealmiller1/Picture005.jpg
http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa361/nealmiller1/Picture004.jpg

[stefanj]

It is neat seeing the old 21mm x 70mm motors. They had those unique flat rear ends with the tiny nozzles!

[carbons4]

The 21 x 70 MM motor boxes were left over from the days of George Roos. We still had some in the fridge,( yes the secret is out we stored our motors in old refrigerators at FSI.) We would
still sell a few of the boxes if someone requested them but most were 0 and 2 second delays.
At least since 1976 all new 21 x 70 motors were sold in 3 pack plastic bags.
The thermalite shown I do not believe is FSI issue. All I ever remember cutting had the pink wraping.

[stefanj]

Cool!

carbon4 = Doug Pratt by any chance? Or one of the Reeses?

Were the refrigerators plugged in?

I guess an unplugged in fridge would make a nice airtight storage space. And if Indiana Jones movies are to be believed, they can stand up to nuclear blasts!

All of the 21 x 70 motors I purchased were in the little boxes, but that is not saying much. I only bought maybe a half-dozen packs of the small motors, all in the mid 70s. (I received two packs in compensation for a kit destroyed by a cato'ing D6.)

FSI's bigger motors were of far more interest to me back then!

[carbons4]

I would be interested to know if those bad E-60's were 1977 vintage? The Mach 1 thruster system was simple but neat design. The F100 was drilled out so a D20 would just fit in. There was just enough bulkhead in the front of the core to hold pressure and prevent burn thru for the .5 second burn time. On top of it we poured x amount of course black powder and cemented it in place with nitro celulose. The outer leading edge of the case was rounded off with a file. Very simplestic but it WORKED!!

[carbons4]

Sorry, not Doug or the Reese's. Doug did work for them right before I did. Basiclly how I met them. One of those funny things. My father worked with Harold in 30's. My brother went to school with the boys but I did not meet them until Doug introduced us. Lonnie and Harold are gone, I have not heard form Brian or Larry in years. No I am just a friend that worked for some of the coolest people you would ever meet.

[carbons4]

Refrigerators were not pluged in but grounded.

[Neal Miller]

FSI ignitiors IThe 21 x 70 MM motor boxes were left over from the days of George Roos. We still had some in the fridge,( yes the secret is out we stored our motors in old refrigerators at FSI.) We would
still sell a few of the boxes if someone requested them but most were 0 and 2 second delays.
At least since 1976 all new 21 x 70 motors were sold in 3 pack plastic bags.
The thermalite shown I do not believe is FSI issue. All I ever remember cutting had the pink wraping.

I think the fabric cover on the ignitor is just faded, I will try to up load some pics of the FSI ignitors that I have left.


1-1/8", 1-1/2" and 3" FSI thermal-lite Ignitors and the M20 and M100 Electric Match.
The E60 engines that I had/have were all made in the mid 1980's, I have one left an E60-6
2 CATOED the last one I launched was about 3 months ago in a AEROTEC Cheetah,
the flight was 100% I would say the Cheetah went 800' .

It's cool to hear from someone that worked with Harold, Lonnie and Larry.

Neal

[stefanj]

The first igniter picture up above is likely not an FSI igniter, but an NCR substitute. The others, by my and Neal, recognizeably are. The pink wrapper is the key. Likely useless by now; the stuff doesn't age well.

FYI, the little paper slip wrapped around the igniters is a liability waiver.

Yeah, ditto, thanks for dropping by Carbons4! We do our best to put things together but an eyewitness is the key.

I visited the plant in 1990, on the way back from LDRS in Harsel. Harold was still alive and talked with us briefly. There was a receptionist there, and another fellow I recall having curly hair and a mustache.

Someday I'll sketch out what I remember of the plant. The building we stopped in while waiting for the receptionist to put together a motor order was a tan-painted former military-office building.

[Neal Miller]

The E60's were labeled correctly.
FSI E60s were and are still the most cato prone motors I ever had the DIS-pleasure of owning/flying; well OVER a 50% cato rate no matter if the igniter was placed top, bottom, or middle of core. They made a lot better M-80s than rocket motors.

The F100's were actually like F70's.
Most D, E, and F FSI motors BARELY tested into the impulse they were labeled and sometimes not even.
The F100's and F7's usually tested between 38 and 45 n-sec, even though they were listed as 50 and 55n-sec respectively.
The E60's were usually somewhere around 35n-sec
The awful E6x motors were sometimes below 20 nsec and barely equal in total impulse to the Estes D12. Think of the E6 as a REALLY WEAK version of the weak-thrusting Estes E9.

The FSI E60's where considered the most CATO Prone but here is the all time CATO KING:

THE ESTES E15 with an X motor Code !!! 100% Guaranteed to BLOW.
I got Stuck with 4 packs of these. Neal

[carbons4]

The little paper wrapped around the ignitors, ( I think it was about 3/4 x 2 1/2) were instructions/ disclaimer. The ATF told us it was illegal to sell that thermalite in lengths longer than 3" I think we bought it on 100ft rolls.
The building you went to in 1990 was a de-commisioned Nike Base. Few miles south of Lone Jack. FSI had most of the above ground buildings there. The base was owned by a rancher out of Lee's Summit. At least thru 86, everything still shipped from 9300 E 68th.

[carbons4]

Part of the problem with the motor inaccuracy was when George was still making the motors, he let the equipment go. HE Was real crusty by then, living in Burns Flat, Ok. (believe me ,that would do it to ya) He was making motors whenever he felt like it and we were always behind.
Larry went down there to help him out for a while and decided if they were ever going to keep up with orders, we would have to make our own motors. The black powder fuel is basicly an abrasive. Over time the spindles get smaller and smaller and change your throat size, your core diameter and length. Over years of time they wear away. There are sever things that play into it but that is a big one.

[ghrocketman]

I have "X" code E15's that are now perfectly fine.
Seems that once they thermally cycled a few times within 6-12mos of production, they stabilized.
Flew one last year and it was fine.
I have not had an E15 cato ever amazingly....it was insane the E60 made it by S&T, let alone not taken off the market and de-certed. They were large firecrackers that sometimes functioned as rocket motors.

[carbons4]

I flew several E60's and the only one I ever had go bad was in my International Modelers show Black Brant II. Of course the best model always take it for the team. Thermal cycling DOES make a difference, especially the bigger motors. We did tons of testing. Baking engine tubes out before loading them etc etc. Part of the fun with large black powder motors.

[Ltvscout]

I guess an unplugged in fridge would make a nice airtight storage space. And if Indiana Jones movies are to be believed, they can stand up to nuclear blasts!
Hahahahaha. My son just asked me the other day if that would really work. :D

[Ltvscout]

The FSI E60's where considered the most CATO Prone but here is the all time CATO KING:

THE ESTES E15 with an X motor Code !!! 100% Guaranteed to BLOW.
I got Stuck with 4 packs of these. Neal
Tape 'em to a dowel, stick some fuse in 'em and light 'em off on the 4th! :chuckle:

[ghrocketman]

The last E15 I launched was taped to a 4' dowel.
Had a nose cone atop the E15-0 and a handful of "jumping jacks" for a payload.
No cato, nominal launch

[mwtoelle]

The FSI E60's where considered the most CATO Prone but here is the all time CATO KING:

THE ESTES E15 with an X motor Code !!! 100% Guaranteed to BLOW.
I got Stuck with 4 packs of these. Neal
AFAIK, all of the production Estes E15s were produced in 1993. (The "X" in the date code.) I had no trouble with the three packs that I bought. However, all of those motors were made on 23 Jul 93. Three of the E15s in the photo had one of the recalled production codes on them. The E15-4s were great in the 1.9" diameter Aerotech models.

[Neal Miller]

AFAIK, all of the production Estes E15s were produced in 1993. (The "X" in the date code.) I had no trouble with the three packs that I bought. However, all of those motors were made on 23 Jul 93. Three of the E15s in the photo had one of the recalled production codes on them. The E15-4s were great in the 1.9" diameter Aerotech models.

Hi Mike , all of the E15's that I have; both the E15-4's and the E15-8's have the same
motor code 10X5. I have flown other E15's with out a problem but was going to launch these and was told that they where on a recall list. that was years after I bought them.

Neal

[SEL]

In the early to late 70s (1983 at the very latest; that's when the motors were listed as "discontinued" in the price sheet). FSI packed its 21mm x 70mm motors (A4 through D6) in little red boxes.

< Snipped some GREAT pics!!>

I don't remember if FSI ever packed 21mm x 70mm motors in plastic bags (as were all the other motors), or if that size was simply dropped.

Stephan,

I had had no idea FSI ever used boxes for their motors - thanks for sharing the photo's.

Yes, the 21x70mm motors were bagged - see the B-3's in the pic pic below. I have at least 1 bag ea of the A - D's in bags. Also in the group shot below is a F10-2 special motor that FSI did for the Internats glider competition. I think I bought that one from Dale..

S.

[Chas Russell]

I bought my first FSI motors in 1968. I wish I had left some in the boxes, but I removed them to put in my motor box. I still have a dozen or so 21mm motors, a F100, a F7 that has all of the marking faded, and a couple of bagged three paks of 18mm motors.

I also rediscovered an unopened pink blister pak of Estes B14-5 motors. Forgot all about them. I do have a couple of tubed B14s.

Thanks for posting the pictures of the FSI boxes. Memories....

Chas