Has anyone ever seen - colored plastic nose cones in Alpha kits?
 

In my continuing gathering of Alpha minutiae I was looking at several Estes catalogs online last night. What I was looking for was when the nose cone changed from the balsa BNC-50K to the first blow-molded nose cone (which is pretty similar in shape).

I got a surprise when I read in the Alpha descriptions in the 1989-1992 catalogs mentions of a "red, white or blue plastic nose cone."

I have never seen an Alpha kit with a plastic nose cone that wasn't white. Has anyone seen a blue or red one? Or for that matter any other Estes kit that used a BT-50 ogive-shaped blow-molded cone that was red or blue?

I have two Alpha IIIs, both thrift-store finds, which had red, injection-molded cones.

They have a lug in the base to put a screw-eye into.

I'm actually building one right now. Painting the plastic parts for a more lustrous look.

Could some balsa-fin Alphas have come with this model cone?

Stefan,

Interesting thought. I have seen (and have examples of) the Alpha III cone in the original red, the orange everyone is familiar with, black (Alpha IV) and clear (1207 Phantom). I know it was also white and/or chromed for the Quasar. It is, I believe, unique among Estes plastic nose cones in having that boss for the tiny screw eye on one side of the base.

But having it rather than the pointier blow-molded cone in regular Alpha kits....I hadn't thought of that. The illustrations that accompany the Alpha listing in those catalogs show either the red/black version of the familiar Alpha livery (1989 and 1990) or the red/blue version that is probably the best known (1991 and 1992). The nose cone in the illustrations is same pointed shape that we have seen for many years.

So.... while that's an interesting idea, I think those catalog listings imply a colored other-than-white blow-molded nose cone similar to the ones in current kits or the earlier, closer-to-BNC-50K shape of the first blow-molded cone which first appeared sometime after 1982 (though I haven't yet been able to pin down exactly when).

I have never seen a "regular" Alpha kit after the balsa-cone era with anything other than a white plastic cone.
Alpha III's I have seen with Red, Orange, and an odd White cone.

I have a couple of the Red Cone Alphas - picked them up when I was working part time at a hobby shop ~1990 to feed my habit. Kept an eye out for the Blue Cones, even called the warehouse asking for them, but no luck. I meant to post photos when this thread started, but (enter excuse of your choice here).

Edit- meant to add the they are the rounded cone as in the alpha three.

I would love to see a picture if/when you get the chance, both to see the red and to see that there was - apparently - some mixing between Alpha and Alpha III, which would validate Stefan's theory above.

I'll post some photo's later this afternoon when I get home from work (Pacific Time).

The funny thing about the instructions for the kits from that period is they have the nosecone part listed as either the PNC50ka blow molded or the pnc50k injection molded alpha 3 version with the screw eye. The instructions list both types.

That's because the White cone was the same old blow molded cone we know and love.

If you have some Alpha (1225) instructions that show that, please scan and post.

Part of what I'm going to do when I get closer to done with this whole Alpha 50th project is scan and post somewhere (Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe?) the whole sequence of Alpha instructions that show the evolution from the beginning to the current form of the model. eBay purchases are helping me to fill in the gaps, but between them and online scans of catalogs I still have some gaps in the chain and it is also hard to pin down when changes were really made.

Right now I have a pretty big gap - I'm guessing about 15 years - between the second version with the red/black livery - which has first appearance of the blow molded nose cone (1984 catalog) - and what is essentially the last US-made version in the late 1990s. This latter has the narrower-shaped blow molded white nose cone (and the big centering "cylinder" and the later style motor hook).

These kits that optionally would use the Alpha III cone would fall in that range where I have that gap, and the fact that I had to ask if they even existed means I've not seen one on eBay or otherwise in person.

So.....if you've instructions showing that nose cone option, again, please share :).

Added: the instruction sheets that I have that bracket that time gap both show a blow molded cone (and in the older one, show removing excess flashing as well as opening up the eye for the shock cord) but give no part numbers for the nose cone (or any other part for that matter).

The Reveal: Or not - I forgot that these came in the bags with the illustrated back. I also misremembered where I got these. Turns out it was Toys-R-Us, not the hobby shop. Anyway, photos are below. I have an open one around here that I will scan the instructions from when I find it.

Looks like an injection molded Alpha III cone. Does it have the screw eye hole on the side like the Alpha III's? I wonder if the blow mold was damaged and they used these for a while as a stop gap measure.

....and that might also explain the change in the shape of the blow-molded cone from the one that was a dead ringer for a BNC-50K for the one that's narrower/tapers more immediately from the base that has been the shape for - well - well over half the Alpha's lifetime.

Wow! If there is anyone out there who is really trying seriously to collect all Alpha variants, they would be salivating (even more than I am right now) over that one.

When you find the open one, if you'd also scan the face card (and it's back if there is anything there) I'd REALLY appreciate it. I'd also be interested in any identifying number or date off the back of the bag (usually the lower RH corner).

Or ( says the cynic) it could have simply been to sell more Alphas: "Collect All Three!"

I suppose.

Until Stefan suggested it last night (and you've now confirmed) I wouldn't have thought of there being an Alpha III cone in an Alpha kit. I've got to figure out how to describe this in my big spreadsheet....

tbzep has a plausible theory as to why that might have been done. Too bad there's no one left to ask. I suspect Vern wasn't really involved at Estes by then (even though he was there during the Damon time), and Mike Dorffler is gone. I suppose it's worth a shot to ask Bill Simon.....

I can do that.

SEL has graciously sold and shipped to me the opened example of the kit with the Alpha III nose cone in it. The instructions (PN 89295G) do in fact show either the blow molded nose cone or an Alpha III nose cone and tiny screw eye throughout. So it would be perfectly legitimate to build a balsa-finned Alpha and put an Alpha III cone (at least the red one) on it and call it a 1989 Alpha (red/black livery) or 1990-1992 Alpha (red/blue livery). I never would have expected that.

This kit also answered another question I was trying to answer: did the big centering "cylinder" (big fat single ring) come before or along with the motor hook with the finger tab? Since this kit, both in the instructions and in the parts in the bag, has the original-style motor hook but the big fat ring (though it's not green (!)) I now know the fat ring came first.

Thanks, SEL!

SO......has anyone ever seen a BLUE Alpha III nose cone (or for that matter a blue blow-molded one)?

Attached is a quick picture of part of those instructions.....

You're very welcome.
I'd like to know as well if the Alpha ever came with a blue nose cone.
All the looking I did at the time never turned one up.

Wow, never knew the round tip, hollow cone would've/could've come with a 1225 Alpha! Huh....

Bernard, I think what you're doing is awesome; can't wait to see the results! I did a similar project a few years back. Though I don't have a Alpha III coned Alpha I....doh! Alpha Collection Link

I have since added a 1" longer tubed, PNC-60K coned Super Alpha...properly scaled up version of the 1225 Alpha.

-Eric-

Neither did I - until SEL posted his example in this thread - and that after I saw that reference to red, blue or white nose cones in the 1989-1992 Estes catalogs as posted on the Estes site.

I remember seeing seeing your project - in fact I kind of wondered if I was duplicating some of what you've already done.

Right now I'm focusing only on the original Alpha ("Alpha I") and my intent is to lay out the evolution of its configuration from Bill Simon's original, which first appeared in the 1967 catalog, up through the currently-sold configuration.

I was reading old MRNs on YORS earlier today and saw a mention of the Alpha as part of a "more complete" beginner's outfit in the December 1965 MRN....so it appears to have been available for a good year before it popped up in the catalog. I'm hoping that the oldest instruction sheet I have (which was from my first Alpha, circa 1968 or so) represents the initial version.

The last configuration change I'm trying to nail down the timing for is the installation of the motor mount with the motor tube sticking out 3/8 of an inch as current versions show. It appears to have happened somewhere around 2011 but I don't have an example of where that change actually occurred.

I was curious if there was another rocket produced during the 89-92 time frame that could have had a blue/red nose cone that Estes could have used in the Alpha kit and found this:

http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/89est08.html

The Revolutionary Series appears to use the Alpha III fin can and a nose cone that could be a blue or red Alpha cone.

I did a few quick searches and the in the box image is all I could find which is hard to see.
I couldn't find any other data on these either.

Anyone have one of these or know about the cone that was used?

Could be wrong, but I seem to remember those cones being longer than the Alpha III's.

I think you're right. The Alpha III's plastic nose cone was more blunt than the original Alpha's balsa nose cone and the current Alpha plastic nose cone is a very close match to the balsa cone.

That looks like the 50YP cone that has been on LOTS of models including some Alpha-ish variations (the recent RTF Athena and HiJinks to name two). It's also used on the Make-It Take-It which is exactly what that "Patriot" looks like - blue nose cone, red fin can.

Eric,

In your Alpha family build, do you recall if your red/black livery model has a plastic or balsa nose cone? Based on the stuff I've been running down, the red/black markings span the transition from the BNC-50K to the PNC-50KA (the "fatter" of the blow-molded nose cones which is very close to the original balsa one).

It's less clear from what I know now whether there was ever a black/red version with the current shape of the blow-molded nose cone. It kind of depends on what the white nose cone was in the kits during that 1989-1992 period when the catalog said you could have red, white or blue (and the instruction sheet was 82925G).

A question to the assembled Alpha-geek brain trust: what's the correct way to refer to the current shape blow-molded nose cone that's in the Alpha, Generic E2X and I'm sure other kits. PNC-50-what?

I'm now in touch with a local collector who specializes in Alpha and Alpha variants....he's not been able to come up with an actual Alpha with a blue nose cone (not the HiJinks/Athena-like "Revolutionary Series"), either. I really does make me wonder if they ever really existed or if it was just catalog copy that suggested there might be.

Hi Bernard,

Both! My notes indicate that the BNC-50K's were supplied until 1982. 1983 was the first year for the PNC-50KA (fatter ogive) cone. The Red/Black with Decals livery ran from 1982-1990 in catalog years.

The Blue/Red scheme with decals ran from 1991-1997; I believe it was only supplied with the PNC-50KA (same p/n, slimmer ogive) version as you suggest. The same scheme continued in 1998, with a switch from waterslides to stickers.

I definitely have to go back and check out the instructions from the time...until this thread I had never seen or heard of any other cone in the kits. Mind blown! :eek: :)

Believe it to be a PNC-50KA.

Somewhere around that 1990 timeframe, Estes changed that mold from the fatter ogive like the BNC-50K to the slimmer current mold, however left the part number unchanged. Two differently shaped NC-50 cones with the same part number...doh!

Edit: check out this post. Lovely comparison by Quasar! The two versions of the PNC-50KA cone on the right. Pre ~1990 in the middle, Post ~1990 on the right.
Cone Comparison

I'd been meaning to take a picture like that myself (the three nose cone comparison). Maybe I don't need to now. I notice he says the fatter blow-molded cone came from an Alpha II kit (and they do appear there first, based on what I've come across) but they also are in "regular" Alphas as you know. His suggestion that he saw one in an X-Ray kit makes me wonder what other models that would have used a BNC-50K might have got the plastic version in the 1982-1990 time frame....sheesh, another bunny trail.....

Another thing I've noticed in this recent gathering up of sample Alphas of different vintages is that the Chinese-made version of the current nose cone has less molding flash and smoother seams between the mold halves. Not sure I want to say it out loud like that but the samples show it pretty clearly. Maybe I need to shoot that picture. The last of the "made in USA" Beta Series Alphas with the narrower blow-molded nose cone have pretty rough ones.

I agree that the transition from the fatter to slimmer blow-molded cone coincides with the four-year span that had the catalog description mention "red, white or blue" nose cones. Which leads me to wonder which version of the blow molded cone one got if they got one with a white nose cone in that time frame (1989-1992 catalog time frame).

tbzep earlier in the thread speculated that the original PNC-50KA nose cone mold may have gotten damaged and that's what drove both the new one (with the revised shape) and the option of the Alpha III cone. That seems a plausible explanation for both the option of Alpha III cones and provides the opportunity for the replacement mold to have had a different shape.

I wish there was someone with firsthand knowledge we could ask about what happened then.....

Mike Hellmund would be someone who might know, as he was with Estes from 1991-?? Matt Steele was there from around 93-97. I think the slimmer cones started a bit later than 1990. I'm thinking 94 or so.

That's about right - whenever the Alpha first appeared packaged as part of the "Beta series". These first appeared in the 1993 catalog. All the Beta series Alpha examples I have acquired have the slimmer nose cone - first made in the US, then later (beginning 2000) made in China.

This is also when the Alpha got the motor hook with the finger tab - in the initial Beta series version.

Initially these had the red/blue livery in waterslide but that transitioned to stickers in the late 1990s. This was before first the parachutes and then the whole kits went to China.

We need someone who was at Estes in 1988 or so - who was involved in the 1989 catalog production perhaps - where this whole notion of different colors of nose cones first appeared - to tell us what drove them to do the Alpha III nose cones for a time. I asked Bill Simon about it, but he'd been gone from Estes for some time by then.

The blue ones were real!
 

I have to revive this thread because I have, just tonight, received images of an Alpha with a blue Alpha III nose cone in the bag. It came in response to a side remark I made in a current thread about other molded plastic parts/models (https://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=19023) and some info from Matt Steele about a warehouse fire at Estes Industries some time in the 1990s that damaged some molds. I tossed off a remark about how the time frame was wrong for the transition from PNC-50KA (the first verision) through the purported red/white/blue option to the narrower later PNC-50KA. I remarked that I thought the blue ones were mythical and never really existed.

And 5x7 popped in and said “I have one”. I asked him to please please take pictures (actually, I asked if he’d sell it - he won’t) and this evening he sent me pictures.

This model has the blue/red decal and the single centering ring motor mount, so fully consistent with most of the examples I’ve gotten with this face card and the revision G instructions.

Also, I had a long conversation with Mary Roberts in August of 2017 and she recalled that somehow (she didn’t know how) the original PNC-50KA mold was damaged and that led to a bit of a scramble. This was the driver for the rev. G instructions and the red/white/blue nose cone option. That squares with what tbzep suggested earlier in this thread.

I’ll fill in a bit more about the progression of nose cones as I’ve learned since last this thread was active in another post.

I have learned, for example, that the conclusion I drew two posts above that the current shape first appeared in the Beta series, is incorrect. Actually, there was a variant between the one pictured just above and the first Beta that had the rev. G instructions and the original style motor hook (in the single-ring motor mount) yet had the new narrower true ogive shape. Perhaps later I can post a picture of that one.

I’ve posted this picture in other places, but it’s germaine here (except that it doesn’t show the blue/red Alpha III cones other than as a footnote).