Just Won K16 Delta Blue Skill Level
 

I've been watching this kit all week as first time seen. The kit was not recorded in the 2009-2011 database and Mojo1986's historical pricing records from 2004-2007 did not show an appearance either. The blue skill level version was the Delta's end of life appearance in the 1972 catalog.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...em=230790093746

I wish the kit would not have had the facecard pricing oval blackened but small anomaly for such a difficult kit to locate.

Anyone else share my opinion for this kit's rarity? Also any insight into the size of the blue skill level production run would be appreciated as will be writing up the description page on my website today.

New front/back images will have to wait until I return back to US in early June.

Well Gerry, honestly ... I think it was the seller that won in the end, but grats to you! Tough kit to find and if it makes you happy, that is ALL that matters :)

Jonathan

Yes, it was a relatively expensive purchase but needed this one to continue completing my skill level kit collection.

Any idea how difficult this type of project would be? On the surface, YORF members may think it is fairly doable. But if one considers the Mars Snooper K20/1220 green skill level transition kit and this K16 Delta, then a skill level kit collection is significant undertaking that could take years to complete.

I did it back in the 90's, but skill kits were in the $20 - $80 range. I remember buying dozens of kits from Robby's Rockets, Jim ... darn I forget his name, and Danny Sagstetter's RMR newsgroup auctions.

Back then, K Kits were in the $120 - $200 range max. Its going to be hard to collect them all because many of the kits you didn't think were skill kits were for some reason or another.

There were K Kits that were sold in skill level packaging in their final year or two or even in their final months... those are the hardest ones to get and will list both the K-## and the K-12## on them. Then there are the variants; kits sold in the same year, same packaging, and one has a plastic cone while the other is balsa.

And then there are the skill packaged kits with the OBVIOUS K-Kit instructions and parts.

There is also no real way to determine that you have all the skill level variants as you do with the K-Kits aside from changes in the packaging, e.g. line drawn, graphics on the face card or folded instructions, or the eventual face cards.

IMHO, collecting K-Kits while more expensive, can be tracked and audited much easier than the skill level kits.

Get those not so common kits when you can, but hold up going over board as I am starting to get my hands around my collection and I would rather trade for what I might need instead of spending 10's of thousands.

I was about to pull the trigger on Danny's auction but with seconds left, I asked myself do I really have $455 (my high to enter) for the kit, or can that cash be better spend elsewhere ... and I already have a bagged Mars Lander so I pulled back and said, 'dude I have trip to NARAM in less than three months! Save your money for that!

Also Danny has a reputation. If you want to know more about that, pm me.

Good luck!!! the Delta vehicle comes in 3 types of packaging and the Skill level would be the rarer of the three :) Three that I know of ;)

Hmmm make that 4 as I forgot the Red-Blue-Black hang tag that might actually be rarer than the skill level packaging!!! Line drawn, then K-Kit with capsule around the Earth logo, then Red-Blue-black, then Skill level ... I think that covers the variants. I don't know for sure. Maybe five ... there was the hang tag with the Estes Logo and Damon separately ... there used to be a site that had scans of all the hang tags ... use the 'wayback' machine on the web to try and dig it up.

Jonathan

I hate this ... I remember Jim's last name, Jim Stuckman. He is dead now as is the previous owner of Robby's rockets.

Danny Sagstetter is still around and sells his collector's journal ... get a copy because as long as Danny can draw a breath, you will NEVER see those things copied and sold for just a few dollars on ebay. Plus, the journals really do contain very useful information about early retail rocketry.

Danny sold most of his collection a few years back, but he still has an occasional gem on ebay every so often; not sure if he is actively reading YORS, but his ebay ID is DANE1945 ... that was the year of his birth ... I know because I asked him about it once.

Jonathan

Jonathan..... this link is quite good for detailed review of Estes hang tag types into the early 90s. http://www.seateddimevarieties.com/...ngtag_guide.htm

Gerry,

I am a little embarrassed as I didn't see or know of your hang tag site: http://www.seateddimevarieties.com/...ngtag_guide.htm

As you know hang tags were red/green/yellow/orange/blue/white font on black, blue font on white, black font on white, and the red/blue/Earth on black tags. There was an attempt to list them on the early site, but you have done a far better and more extensive job than the former:

http://web.archive.org/web/20050619...s.com/estes.htm

I found your link when searching for the older 1999 link, so I am not offering anything new to you :(

Oh, and there were kits that had no tags at all. These were sold in assortments and part of starter sets. Finding an old K-Kit/Skill Alpha or Bertha with no tags at all is possible. These kits just have the Mylar sealed like the old line drawn kits yet they are post-Damon; OEM packaging. Also those starter sets had the old BROWN/TAN motor tubes that were in the 1970's starter sets.

I looked around, but in the Estes catalog photos, the engines are just lose and there is no motor tube; they were brown and not blue/red as they were when sold separate. Here is a photo:



The motors are just laying there on the paperwork and I would guess done so for clarity. They actually came in a brown tube with white end caps.

FYI in case someone is trying to sell you a 'mint' untouched starter set with original motors ... not to say they couldn't have been sold in blue/red motor tubes, but from the examples of 'MINT' starter sets from that era that I have handled, the tubes have ALL been brown, lose spiral (the gap in the paper spiral is large enough that as you run your fingers along it, you feel it), and had the white paper caps on the end.

Jonathan

P.s. starter sets pre-Damon did have the blue tubes, just thought I would clarify that. The Damon sets had the brown tubes.

Good grief !
Almost $200 for a kit that does not even include a nose cone.
An uncle of mine gave me an unopened Astron Delta back in 1978; pretty sure it was discontinued in 1972. I promptly opened and built it. That was my first multi-stage rocket kit and I remember my father and I thinking that that kit was a major rip-off in that it came with ZERO nose cone to fly without the 'purchased separately' Camroc...that would make about as much sense as a Cineroc-less Omega not having a nose cone. The Omega was available for I think one year as a nose cone-less version in addition to with the payload.

Gerry, et al.,

One more thing and this is just a word of advise, take it how ever you see fit:

I have learned the HARD way that bidding against people, especially hard core collectors, can lead to bitterness, pettiness , and worse.

Its best not to advertise what you win and/or by how much.

Back in the day when ebay allowed you to see who snipped at the last 1 or 2 seconds it made for some interesting BS.

I remember back in the mid 90's I would receive messages from people either asking me to stop bidding or that they would do me financial or reputation harm.

I remember cursing out Bob Craddock, Tim Joyce, Danny Almond, and many more because they dared interfere with my financial affairs on ebay. This led to rumors and threats, and counter rumors and counter threats. It got very nasty. A seller in VA (Craddock ... I already know it was you ... guess that's why you hid from me at NARAM 50...) tried to get me to send him a payment at this homeless shelter he worked at. The money for the Centuri 1B was to be donated to the shelter and he worked in the mail room. So make the check out to the shelter, he will receive it (he worked in the mail room after all) and send me my Centuri 1b kit ... I got wind from a source close to him as to what was up, and the check never did make it to that Virginia homeless shelter ... see crap like that has me hating so many collectors out there ... then there were the packages that started showing up at my house and it was odd that a Douglas Shrox would be seen on my front lawn at the same time the packages would arrive ... almost like he was doing recon to see where and when they would arrive ... I have a bone to pick with him one of these days ... see I never forget ... that is both a curse and a blessing for me ... even in my 40's, I still remember the taste of baby formula, stuff that happened to me when I was 3 and 4 years old VIVIDLY. Yes, I know I am strange ... but that is what I am :)

Kevin Nolan who used to run Countdown Hobbies, ran an auction on go.com or some site like that when he was liquidating a rocket collection back in 1997 or 1998. Certain people created auction names such as, 'Dunbar Killer' and 'Black fag'. If you don't believe me, just ask Kevin Nolan and he can confirm as we had an e-mail discussion about this.

Now that ebay has its new policy of masking the ID of the winning bidder, I have been able to come up for air, but be warned, because people will still look at the feedback number, the history of what you bid on (category) and try to get under your skin that way, but it is today much harder to harass bidders today than it was in past years.

As for the sellers, the new policies that ebay is now using makes the seller the bad guy and if there is as much as a 'gnats fart' of difference in the description and the actual item, e-pal will side against the seller and the seller is made to pay everything back.

So bad sellers are almost impossible on ebay today. Oh, they happen but for the most part, 2 - 3 negatives in 1 quarter for a seller, will shut him or her down for at least 6 months if not out right get them banned.

Take home message: don't publicly announce you outbid someone or won something that other people had their hearts set on winning. This collecting stuff gets VERY personal with people. Me? I don't give a crap. I am dealing with the purchase of a TOYOTA (thanks Gordy) Prius V and I want to just buy it or place as much down as I can, so money is very tight and I am not interested in getting any new rockets ... been buying way too much off of Hobby King of late, so that is my other bane.

Its just best to collect and enjoy what you have in a personal quiet manner ;)

Jonathan

Ok, JD...was right there with you in agreement until I saw you were purchasing a POS toyota ANYTHING....THAT is the sort of thing that causes ME to hold a GRUDGE for almost forever. Before anyone asks, an American car is one produced by a company HEADQUARTERED in the USA that has the profit from their international operations funneled into the USA to become part of the USA money-multiplier, not Japan.

Seems that it is very common for both coasts of the USA to purchase a LOT of POS far east imports...and yes they are POS.
If I HAD to buy an import it would certainly come from selected brands HQ'd in Germany or Italy and the junk-heap brands of Wolkswagen and Fiat need not EVER apply....