Ye Olde Rocket Forum - 1972 D12-3. Should I fly it?

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- - 1972 D12-3. Should I fly it? (http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=16836)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Sams

I'm pretty sure it can't :) I think Roy was just having a little fun with us :)

Doug

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No, this is an observation. I've seen lots of old motors that I would have thought would blow, work perfectly. And a thought experiment. If dissimilar substances bond at high pressure in seconds, could they also rebond under lower pressures over longer periods of time? Maybe a couple of years, or even five years, is not enough, but ten, thirty, or in this case, forty-five years might be perfect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott6060842

I would definitely fly it, in something you are not very fond of. Got an old "The Dude" laying around?

A few years ago I bought some old built rockets off of eBay. I restored a couple of classic kits but a couple more just simple scratch-builts that weren't worth the effort, even though they're flyable. One of them has a 24mm mount. That's the one I'll use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royatl

No. Understand that the bonding that occurs between the casing and the propellant (and previously pressed nozzle) occurs within seconds under great pressure.
The de-bonding occurs, as you say, from the change in diameters. If fired within a few months after this occurs, you'll get flame propagation through that microscopic separation. My theory is that if the motor now is kept in normal storage conditions, the bonding reoccurs as a function of pressure over time. After all, there is still pressure being applied, as the diameter the casing was made at, is smaller than the chunk of propellant. This might explain why a lot of the early 90's Estes E15's, which were taken from the market due to a high probability of catos, (anecdotally) work perfectly now. The cause of their problems was slightly different. They worked fine when fired within a few months after manufacture, but 'dried out' too much, and started catoing later. But it seems the longer they're just left alone, they "settle in" to their casing.

By the way, I think your idea about the epoxy fillet would just lead to either a nozzle blow out or a split casing.

But it's still just a theory

Interesting! Could be the makings of an R&D project. Wonder if you xray-ed thermal cycled motors early on, could you see the debonding, then over time see it go away?

Yeah, right after I posted I thought about the nozzle blowing out then thought better to blow out the nozzle than blow out the forward end and torch the rocket....maybe??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royatl

I'm thinking of flying a junk rocket with a D12-3 made in April 1972 at our club launch this Saturday.

What say you? Should I do it? What do you think will happen if I do?

This D12-3 has been in my possession since it was first purchased at a hobby store. There was a time in the 80's that it spent two or three years in the attic, but since then it has been in a fairly constant normal indoor environment. My theory is that thermal-cycled motors can return to stability over long periods of time.

I also have an old D12-3 in my stash (stamped production date is 5-31-74) as well as my very last D13-3 (date on that one is 8-6-71). The marking on the D13 has faded quite a bit and is hard to see in the pic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royatl

My thinking is that it could re-seal, and perhaps be tight enough to fly without catoing, but I'm doubtful of it actually rebonding.

The pressure and conditions at the time of manufacture result in bonding, but I'm skeptical it can re-bond at the much lower pressure of simply getting warmed up in a field box, for example.

That said, this is a perfect question for Ed Brown :)

Doug

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Put it in an old Maxi-Brute X-Wing.
The flight MAY simulate it getting blasted by a TIE Fighter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghrocketman

Put it in an old Maxi-Brute X-Wing.
The flight MAY simulate it getting blasted by a TIE Fighter.

I CAN'T SHAKE HIM! :eek:

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Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeR

Please fly it, and shoot video. I love a good pyro show. :)

Come to Minooka, IL and I'll fly a junker with an E60-6 before or after and the wife can video it....... :D

Flight made! Worked perfectly (actually I changed to a D12-5 made on July 20, 1973)

So, I still have the above pictured motor, as well as a couple of D12-7's, one from 1973, and the other from 1974.