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-   -   Scanner settings suggestions? - Centuri Power Tower markings (http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=16800)

BEC 08-29-2017 01:57 PM

Scanner settings suggestions? - Centuri Power Tower markings
 
1 Attachment(s)
As part of my gathering of old GSE a few months ago I managed to score an Estes Big Foot launcher and a Centuri Power Tower pad - both never assembled.

I have the Big Foot now up and running (with an LED continuity lamp so it's Q2G2 safe) and have turned my attention to the Power Tower.

For those who wonder what that is - it's the plastic parts which are the same as the first generation tall Estes Porta-Pad (molded in black plastic rather than the red, yellow or orange of the Estes units of the same design), but with a Centuri angled blast deflector held to the launch rod with a couple of triangular push-nuts, as well as a spring-style standoff similar to the Odd'l Rockets Raise.

It also has some extensive graphics to be applied to the plastic parts - and these are the driver for this post. They are black printed on silver peel-n-stick markings and I'm having a devil of a time figuring out how to get a semi-decent scan of them before I actually attempt to attach them to the pad itself.

Does anyone out there have any magic set of scanner settings that might work on such a tough subject?

Attached is a .pdf of the best I've been able to get so far, to give an idea of what this is (but at 300 dpi so I could upload it).

mwtoelle 08-29-2017 03:08 PM

Tom Prestia at Tango Papa Decals might know. I sent him a Maxi Force decal sheet to scan about eighteen years ago that is printed on reflective material. I think that you may need to use a scanner that has a back light in the lid (normally used to scan slides). Note that I have not tried that trick myself. Sandman may also know how to do that as well.

yousah 08-29-2017 08:33 PM

I'm not sure if your PDF was downsampled in order to upload it, but it certainly looks less than 300dpi.

You could either choose RGB or CMYK and scan at 300dpi (or ppi if that's the unit your scanner uses).

What other options does your scanner menu give you?

I use a scanner almost every day. I can understand if the silver part of the sticker is causing some problems, but there appears to be a bigger issue than that. Is there perhaps some sort of "auto" exposure setting that is getting confused by the reflective silver part of the sticker?

BEC 08-29-2017 11:21 PM

I did have to save it smaller to be able to upload it. I am using Hamrick's VueScan software which has a zillion options.

This was done as grey scale - I can certainly try color settings as well.

The whole intent here really is to just have a copy for posterity and that can be shared, perhaps here on Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe, before I actually USE these stickers on the unit.

I will, of course, also scan the instructions - but they will be easy to do.

yousah 08-30-2017 12:24 AM

You might try bypassing that software and using your scanner's native interface. It's likely to be simpler.

I noticed that the VueScan software has lots of settings that just represent post-scanning operations that may be giving you bad scans.

Even if you just need a black and white scan, start with color which gives you more editing options in graphics programs. It can then be converted to black and white as the final step.

Some black and white scanner options will scan in bitmap mode which will typically give you very bad results. That's my best guess as to what might be happening.

BEC 08-30-2017 02:39 AM

Good thoughts. Thanks. I had thought of black/white mainly because if anyone ever wanted to reproduce these markings, a good clear scan of the black which could be printed on silver stock would probably be the most useful.

I will experiment some in the next couple of days. I don't need to actually use the Power Tower until our club launch on September 9th. I have a few days to figure it out before I need to try to apply them.

Faithwalker 08-30-2017 03:01 AM

Centuri Power Tower markings
 
Bernard,
When you scan the Centuri Power Tower markings, could you also place a ruler next to them in order to help provide proper scale please? Thanks for posting!

Kind regards,

Jeff
aka: Faithwalker
NAR #46879

BEC 08-30-2017 06:59 PM

Thanks for the reminder about that.

Faithwalker 08-30-2017 07:14 PM

Centuri Power Tower markings
 
Bernard,
One suggestion, if you continue to have trouble getting good scans, could you simply make some high resolution photos of the stick-on decal sheet along with the measuring scale, and post them on here?

Also, if you don't mind and are able, could you please post some photos of the hardware such as the triangular push-nuts, as well as the spring-style standoff similar to the Odd'l Rockets Raise, in addition to posting a scan of the Centuri Power Tower instructions?

Thanks,
Jeff Jenkins
aka: Faithwalker
NAR #46879

BEC 08-30-2017 07:38 PM

Yes, I could do that. I was actually thinking in terms of trying to set up a nice orthogonal view with a camera to take pictures of the stickers. Pictures of the little hardware bits that are different from the first version Estes Porta Pad (which has the same plastics just in different colors) are also possible. Fortunately I haven't actually assembled any of that yet. I suppose pictures and dimensions of the blast deflector (though I suspect it is the same one as used on the Powr-Pad) could also be done.

rocketguy101 08-30-2017 08:39 PM

6 Attachment(s)
Here are some shots of my well-used launcher...I couldn't find the deflector, it had been damaged by an EnerJet motor blow-out which put a big dent in it, and I may have tossed it sometime. If I come across it, I will post pictures later.

I tried to get a shot without reflections off that chrome, but was not able to do it with this camera.

Faithwalker 08-31-2017 12:05 AM

Centuri ID-65 Blast Deflector
 
3 Attachment(s)
David,

Thanks for the Centuri Power Tower photos. I've attached photos of the Centuri ID-65 Blast Deflector, both painted and unpainted versions, which were used on Centuri Servo Launcher, Centuri Power Pad and Centuri Power Tower.

Have you modeled this ID-65 Deflector in SolidWorks yet? If not, I can provide more detailed dimensions, if you would like to model it.

Kind regards,
Jeff Jenkins
aka: Faithwalker
NAR #46879

Woody's Workshop 08-31-2017 01:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faithwalker
David,

Thanks for the Centuri Power Tower photos. I've attached photos of the Centuri ID-65 Blast Deflector, both painted and unpainted versions, which were used on Centuri Servo Launcher, Centuri Power Pad and Centuri Power Tower.

Have you modeled this ID-65 Deflector in SolidWorks yet? If not, I can provide more detailed dimensions, if you would like to model it.

Kind regards,
Jeff Jenkins
aka: Faithwalker
NAR #46879


You must be rich! I inquired about Solid Works today, and when the lady called she started chatting away and I said wait a minute. First, tell me how much it costs, because if it's too much all else is just wasted time. 6G's for the basic? I had to shower and change my panties right after I said Good Bye...

rocketguy101 08-31-2017 06:41 PM

@Jeff -- no I haven't modeled this one...since it is a formed stamping, I'm not sure how to model it with the sheet metal features in SWX. You might document the dimensions here, so down the road it will be available.

@Woody -- HAH! I wish! The company I work for has a licensing agreement with SWX that allows employees to install 1 copy on a home computer for non-commercial purposes.

yousah 08-31-2017 11:39 PM

Solidworks is available at very low prices when purchased for educational use. Many people can qualify under their requirements, including homeschools.

Woody's Workshop 09-01-2017 05:45 AM

How about unemployable disabled people? Do any of us get a break?
Stupid question...Of coarse not...

jadebox 09-01-2017 07:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woody's Workshop
How about unemployable disabled people? Do any of us get a break?
Stupid question...Of coarse not...


Look at Autodesk's Fusion 360. It is free for use by hobbyists and small businesses.

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/supp...Fusion-360.html

-- Roger

Woody's Workshop 09-01-2017 09:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jadebox
Look at Autodesk's Fusion 360. It is free for use by hobbyists and small businesses.

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/supp...Fusion-360.html

-- Roger


Thank You Kindly Roger!
Save me some Quest Rockets so when my SSDI starts I have a place to put some money!

rocketguy101 09-01-2017 06:04 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faithwalker
David,

Thanks for the Centuri Power Tower photos. I've attached photos of the Centuri ID-65 Blast Deflector, both painted and unpainted versions, which were used on Centuri Servo Launcher, Centuri Power Pad and Centuri Power Tower.

Have you modeled this ID-65 Deflector in SolidWorks yet? If not, I can provide more detailed dimensions, if you would like to model it.

Kind regards,
Jeff Jenkins
aka: Faithwalker
NAR #46879


OK I took the challenge and using MK-1 eyeball from your photos, I modeled a best-guesstimate analog to the stamped deflector...I couldn't model the bottom stamped pan properly, so it would be welded corners. I've never used the "Deform" feature before to produce those stiffening ribs and it will take some tweaking to get them right, but I think it looks fairly close...if you will measure your deflector, I will update this model.

I still have an issue with generating the flat pattern with those dimples (ribs), so I need to talk with somebody at work that really does sheet metal parts for a living. All of my stuff is chunky machined parts, but it's interesting to learn something new in SWX.

jdbectec 09-02-2017 02:40 PM

Is this the same blast deflector that was used on the pad that had the pneumatic control and the battery located in the launcher whose name are conveniently forget. Because if it is I know I've got one in there minus the pneumatic controls it's in my attic but I could dig it out and I'd be willing to send the deflector or even the whole pad to somebody that wanted it I've got no use for it.

Faithwalker 09-02-2017 03:01 PM

Centuri Servo Launcher
 
Hi Jeffrey Deem,

Yes, that's the Centuri Servo Launcher you're describing. It uses the same Centuri ID-65 blast deflector as the Centuri Power Tower.

If you no longer want it or need it, I'll be glad to use it and to reimburse you for the postage. Sent you a PM with contact information.

Kind regards,
Jeff Jenkins
aka: Faithwalker
NAR #46879

tbzep 09-03-2017 02:14 PM

Same deflector for the Servo, Powr(sic) Pad and Power Tower.

jdbectec 09-03-2017 05:13 PM

I'll see if I can dig it out sometime soon.

BEC 09-13-2017 01:45 PM

Pictures and scans
 
10 Attachment(s)
Here is what I wound up with.

For the stickers I wound up setting up a camera (my iPhone 7 Plus) on a tripod and making sure it was parallel to the surface where I laid the stickers. Then I took some advantage of natural diffuse light (on the front porch on an overcast day) and got what looks to me to be a clear enough image that someone who wanted to use it as an underlay to redraw the stickers in Corel or some such as a prelude to making reproductions. I hope it is.

Also attached is a scan of the instructions, a picture of the little extra bits (the push nuts and the spring-based standoff), and some of the blast deflector. Perhaps the blast deflector images will be useful in refining that solid CAD model a few posts back.

These stickers went on the parts just fine in spite of their age and the Power Tower was one of eight "classic" launchers we used at our club launch last Saturday. See fourth picture for the whole cast of characters before I strung out the wiring for the launch controllers. The Big Foot and the Power Tower (and the blue Electron beam on the far right) launched their very first rockets ever last Saturday.

I didn't use both push nuts in assembling my Power Tower so that the blast deflector would not be permanently attached to the launch rod. Instead I put the upper push nut and the spring on a rod and used a 1/8 inch model airplane wheel collar (which is held in place with a setscrew) under the deflector so I could - and did - take the deflector off for storage.


Geeky detail: In digging into old launchers I found that the Centuri Power Tower went from tall to wide at the same time as the Estes Porta Pad (whose plastic parts are interchangeable with the Centuri unit) - in the 1982 catalogs. I believe the sticker set could be reproduced and used on a black Estes Porta Pad to reproduce the later version of the Power Tower (along with the ID-65 blast deflector or a facsimile thereof). To complete the illusion one would want to change the model number on the sticker to 5601 to match the 1982-1983 Centuri unit.

As far as I know, the earlier taller version was never sold in black by Estes, so to make one of those earlier ones into a Power Tower clone one would have to paint it black I guess.

BEC 09-13-2017 01:47 PM

More blast deflector
 
5 Attachment(s)
More blast deflector pictures.

astronwolf 09-13-2017 01:51 PM

Thanks for the pics Bernard. Those were neat blast deflectors. I think I still have one in a box somewhere. I wonder if the tooling to stamp these still exist.

BEC 09-13-2017 02:08 PM

It would be great if it did - I like that style much better (except for the means of attachment as my latest edit to the post with most of the pics mentioned) than the flat plate of the Estes-style pads. Less blowback onto the fins of the model for one thing....

blackshire 11-13-2017 10:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdbectec
Is this the same blast deflector that was used on the pad that had the pneumatic control and the battery located in the launcher whose name are conveniently forget. Because if it is I know I've got one in there minus the pneumatic controls it's in my attic but I could dig it out and I'd be willing to send the deflector or even the whole pad to somebody that wanted it I've got no use for it.
The Servo-Launcher (that's it's name, see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/no...a/72cen052.html ) would make an excellent 3D printed "Retro-Repro" piece of GSE (Ground Support Equipment). Having a pneumatically-activated ignition switch on the pad itself (it had no ignition lead wires), its batteries-to-igniter wire leads were only a few inches long (and thus had very little voltage drop), which enabled it to fire igniters using only two Photo-Flash "D" batteries. (Today's alkaline and rechargeable "D" batteries would work well, too, and connecting two more into the circuit might be ample for igniting clustered motors.)

Faithwalker 11-13-2017 11:08 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Bernard,
Thanks for documenting the Centuri Power Tower that you have! I've been working on a SolidWorks 3D CAD model of the ID-65 Blast Deflector (product no. 5806) for it.

I've attached an image of my 3D prototype so far. It's pretty close, but I'm still tweaking it to get a good flat pattern. Rocketguy101 and I are collaborating on it together, so hopefully, we'll have some good drawings for it soon!

Also mentioned in posts #23 & #25 at the following link:
https://www.oldrocketforum.com/show...7498#post217498

Kind regards,
Jeff Jenkins
aka: Faithwalker
NAR #46879

rocketguy101 12-09-2017 03:33 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faithwalker
Bernard,
Thanks for documenting the Centuri Power Tower that you have! I've been working on a SolidWorks 3D CAD model of the ID-65 Blast Deflector (product no. 5806) for it.

I've attached an image of my 3D prototype so far. It's pretty close, but I'm still tweaking it to get a good flat pattern. Rocketguy101 and I are collaborating on it together, so hopefully, we'll have some good drawings for it soon!

Also mentioned in posts #23 & #25 at the following link:
https://www.oldrocketforum.com/show...7498#post217498

Kind regards,
Jeff Jenkins
aka: Faithwalker
NAR #46879


Using Jeff's model as a basis, I made a stab at sheet metal model that could produce a flat pattern. It isn't perfect, as I can't get it to fold with the ribs inserted. Jeff used a different technique to make his model, but it won't flatten :)

The corners of the "pan" will be tricky to make on a press brake since they are compound curves...someone with more sheet metal experience may be able to bend with some sort of forming tool. That said, the final piece would require welding to close up the seams. The original was stamped using forming dies, like an automotive part. This would get you in the neighborhood for a clone, I believe.

This drawing is full scale on a "C" sheet of paper (11" x 17") I put dimensions on the pattern so you could double check a print out.

EDIT: I goofed on the bend angles on the side flanges. They should be 40 degrees, not 50. Here is the corrected drawing (Rev A)

djmartins 08-15-2019 11:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
The Servo-Launcher (that's it's name, see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/no...a/72cen052.html ) would make an excellent 3D printed "Retro-Repro" piece of GSE (Ground Support Equipment).



I'd be able to model it if I had some good dimensions to work from or a launch pad.
The air hose looks a lot like sprinkler hose I have seen at Lowes.
I also would love to see a model of the MPC launch controller out there for people to print.

blackshire 08-16-2019 02:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by djmartins
I'd be able to model it if I had some good dimensions to work from or a launch pad.
The air hose looks a lot like sprinkler hose I have seen at Lowes.
I also would love to see a model of the MPC launch controller out there for people to print.
First, let me second Faithwalker's thanks to Bernard for documenting the Centuri Power Tower in such detail! While consumer 3D production equipment is now plastic part build-up (and metal part build-up) tooling for the most part, I'm sure that other computer-controlled equipment for other production operations (such as metal stamping and machining & sanding) will become available for consumer use sooner or later, and such part definition files will be very useful when that happens (such tooling probably already exists for commercial use). Now, concerning reproducing the Centuri Servo-Launcher http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/no...a/72cen052.html :

Unless the sprinkler hose you referred to was quite narrow in diameter (for garden irrigation units, perhaps?), The Servo-Launcher's pneumatic tubing was more like--and may have been--surgical rubber tubing that was black-pigmented to resist UV exposure (RC sailplane Hi-Start catapults often use black surgical rubber tubing as the energy-storing elastic, with a length of monofilament or other non-stretch line that is attached to the glider's tow hook). The Servo-Launcher used two "D" size Photo-Flash batteries, which provide some size comparison with the tubing and the launcher itself (these were high-discharge-rate batteries, but they were the same size as carbon or alkaline "D" batteries). Also:

The rocket that is shown on the Servo-Launcher is the Marauder (see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ca...d/71dcen40.html ), a two-stage Centuri kit that was in production until 1971. It was made using the 0.908" Outside Diameter (ST-8, see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/no...a/72cen058.html ) body tubing, which--along with the blast deflector and "D" batteries shown in the Servo-Launcher photograph--may help in scaling a duplicate Servo-Launcher (it used the 1/8" x 3' launch rod). Plus, here (see: http://www.spacemodeling.org/jimz/kc-45.htm and http://www.spacemodeling.org/jimz/centuri/kc-45.pdf ) are the Marauder kit instructions.

I hope this information will be helpful.


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